Cracking the Code: How Startups Can Win with MSP Partnerships | The Pair Program Ep57

  Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of hatchpad, and I'm your other host, Mike Gruen. Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth.

Hello everyone. Welcome back to The Pair Program. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, alongside my co host, Mike Gruen. Mike, uh, fun fact for you, uh, Taco Bell recently announced that they're introducing chicken nuggets to their menu. Did you hear about this? I did not hear about this. So I think we can all agree that, you know, we've all got a good Taco Bell success story, you know, a 2 a.

m. drive thru run at some point in our lives. But I don't know that the idea of the nuggets and Taco Bell doesn't really doesn't. Strike me as a home run pairing, but, um, my question for you is just, you know, when was the last time that you treated yourself to some Taco Bell and, and what did you order?

All right. You're ready for a fun fact. I've never eaten at a

Taco Bell. Um, so I love that. And, um,

you're

the one, what's even worse is I did some consulting to, uh, to a founder and she, uh, one of her other, she owns six Taco Bell franchises. So For a while around my house, uh, Taco Bell was like, one of jokes.

And then once I did some consulting to her, I was like, we're not allowed to do that anymore. Um, but, um, uh, so no, have not eaten. I do understand it though. Uh, and that's probably because this way people, the, uh, people with small kids, uh, can go there and their kids can get some chicken nuggets or something.

That's not Taco Bell. And, uh, I'm guessing it's just, uh, It's just, it's just that simple. It's just a stomach ache.

Brian, Brian, you, you strike me as a guy. Brian, do you have a good, uh, Taco Bell, like last run in for you? Like any, any, uh, good experience? I don't know what you're implying, but I

don't even want to talk about it when I was younger. Definitely a kid. One of my buddies, very good friend. He used to be the manager at Taco Bell. So we'd roll up at 2 AM and he would just give us Um, but I think if I were going to eat Taco Bell, it's probably been a good, maybe five, 10 years. I used to like the Mexican pizzas, like they're just light and crispy and easy and kind of deal.

But I kind of stay away from the tacos and it just didn't sit well with me.

Yeah. I, it's funny you mentioned like, you know, order a big old thing of something cause you never go to Taco Bell and just order like, I'm just going to have like two tacos. It's always like, I'm gonna have 10 like Doritos, locos, tacos, uh, a Baja blast.

The order gets a little lengthy at that point, but, um, all right, good stuff. Well, Michael, we'll have to, it looks like we have some plans early next year. I guess so. Uh, let's give a, let's give our listeners a little bit of a preview on what today's episode is all about. So today we're going to be navigating, uh, the world of the vendor.

MSP relationship. So MSP managed service provider. Uh, these partnerships are foundational and shaping how products and services are deployed and managed. And specifically in today's discussion, we'll be hearing from an early stage cybersecurity startup that's capitalizing on the channel vendor dynamic, uh, to strategically get their product in the hands of customers.

So in true pair program fashion, we were fortunate to have two guests joining us to approach this Topic from each side of the equation. Uh, so from the MSP side of things, we have Brian Lucky, who's the chief information officer at Integrus, a managed service provider. Uh, Brian brings a wealth of experience in enhancing it infrastructure, customer experience, revenue growth for a number of businesses, small and large.

And holds a PhD in management information systems and multiple MBAs focused on global enterprise management and negotiation. So, Brian, it's great to have you here. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. And then from the startup vendor side, we have Ian Garrett as the CEO and co founder of Phalanx, a cybersecurity product startup.

Um, Ian's background as a U. S. Army cyber officer. And his insights into cybersecurity and artificial intelligence has driven failings to create cutting edge solutions for secure document access. Ian, welcome to the show. Happy to be here. All right. Good stuff. And I also like to point out that both of these guests are, uh, local to the DMV area, so we've got four, four locals today.

It's kind of a rare occurrence for us. It seems like it's been a while since we've had four locals. It has. It's a shame. Shame. We, we, we got to try to get these in person at some point. Yeah, that'll probably go well. Um, yeah. All right. So before we dive into the heart of the discussion, let's, let's warm up with our, our favorite segment.

Pair me up, uh, here's what we all go around and throw out some fun combinations. Mike, why don't you kick us off? So, yeah,

uh, so mine, um, uh, is a ping pong and unfinished basements. Uh, it seems like, uh, every place, like, I don't know, every time I've played ping pong, uh, growing up, it's always been in somebody's unfinished basement, including my own.

Um, and, uh, what made me think of it recently is, um, we have a ping pong table in our unfinished basement and, uh, my son sort of, like, moved things around so that we could start playing again. We had had a little bit of a flood down there a few years ago, and a bunch of boxes ended up where the ping pong table should be because that was, like, the big open space.

Um, so we, uh, so he was motivated to, uh, ping pong table and we've been playing this week. It's been great. Uh, that's, uh, it's so much fun. It's just a great game. Yeah.

Kids and stuff. Did you grow up with a ping pong table? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, uh, it's like one of those legacy items. Like if you grew up with one, like I've got one in my garage as well.

There you go. Um, and you always know, you know, when you, when you match up with someone, if they, they were kind of raised at the table. And then you

have to go through, okay, what are your family house rules or our house rules? That's right. Are you allowed to do this kind of serve, that kind of stuff? Yep.

That's right. Good stuff. Um, all right. Uh, I'm, I'm going to go with, uh, kind of keeping with the holiday theme. I'm going to go with, um, uh, family, like a holiday photos and, uh, utter mayhem. Um, specifically family photos with pets though. Uh, and so, you know, for context, my wife and I, we have a daughter who's a two year old, uh, toddler, But we also have a four year old, uh, uh, a hundred pound Swiss mountain dog named Basil.

And, um, you know, so trying to like balance this, you know, hyper dog on a leash, while also trying to look, you know, festive and, and calm for a holiday card is, is just hilarious. Frankly, impossible. So for, for any of those that are watching, like on the, on the YouTube channel, you'll see, I am, I've got this jolly shirt on.

This is actually the shirt and spoiler alert. This is the shirt that we use in our holiday card. So, um, it was, uh, far, far from a jolly experience, but for, for most of this, uh, this photo issue, but yeah, that's the pairing I'm going with them. I'm going to say, um, these family holiday photos with pets and, and complete chaos.

So do

you, uh, do you try and dress all in the same outfit, including the pet?

Not the same outfit. It's not like we're all like wearing like a denim, uh, denim suit, but we, you know, everybody's kind of has like a little holiday, you know, festive outfit. Yes. You guys are

okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're putting like the, you know, the dog will have like a sweater or, you know, like a holiday collar on or something.

But, um, you'll see, you'll, you'll get a card here, so I'm sure I'll get it. Yeah. nice. Um, cool. All right, well, let's, uh, let's pass it over to our guest. Uh, Brian, how about a, a, a brief intro and, and your pairing.

Uh, sure. So, uh, as you mentioned, CIO for Integrus and I basically oversee the internal technology as well as the external technology.

So that customer facing technology we use to provide I. T. Services to our customers. So basically technology internally and externally. Um, the pair me up, man. I don't think his mind is exciting as you guys, but I'll go with like travel and foodie. Maybe that's probably the best.

So

as my wife and I were a new newly, uh, Yeah.

Uh, empty nesters. So we moved to Maryland a couple years ago from Arizona and our kids are all, uh, grown for the most part, uh, they're still kids, but they're grown and, uh, we've been traveling a ton. So we both inside, so we're working to kind of where we want to live next because Maryland is not the.

Final resting place, maybe a Virginia or something like that. So we'll, we'll go for a weekend and look at a bunch of land and then try to find good food in the DMV area, which there's tons. Um, and then, uh, but we'll also travel overseas. So in the last year we've done Belgium and Amsterdam and Cancun and Costa Rica, um, Paris.

We're going to Jamaica next month. So just like, and we're trying to find good food. Just travel together. Just fun. So that's the best I got. Sorry. I love it. That's great.

I find it funny that you moved from Arizona to Maryland. Like, I think you're like as an empty, empty nester. I feel like more people go the other way.

It's like my grandmother who left Florida like that. She went from Florida to Pennsylvania. Like that doesn't compute. Yeah,

it's 50, 50. I mean, the 50. So my, my youngest daughter plays soccer for the university of Maryland. So The other 50 percent is, um, well, my wife wanted to get out of the heat. We've been in Arizona for 20 years and she said, I mean, you don't have to move, but it'll be cheaper if you did.

And I said, yeah, you're right. So, uh, she wanted to go where there's four seasons and, uh, and so we're like, well, Maryland has four seasons and we might as well go there for a few years. Uh, and so that's what we're doing, but well, Virginia seems good for us. Like probably like, you know, Culpeper orange, maybe somewhere right around there.

I'm a Maryland guy. I'm never,

I can't, I can't cross that border. I'm from New York original. I'm from Virginia. He's from Virginia.

Tim and I, that's where we're oil and water. It's like the Maryland, Virginia, the jab at Maryland. Say I'll call, I'll just cross over to Virginia. My, my, my business partner is a Maryland guy through and through.

And we always just talk. Shit about like, oh, you're a driver sucker.

His

business partner doesn't live far from me. That's what's funny. Uh, I love it, man. I'm, I'm, I'm in the same boat. It's something, you know, part of travel, like the big piece of it is the food experience. Like, you know, exploring some restaurants and getting a feel for that, that culture.

Um, so cool. Good stuff. Well, thanks again for joining us. Uh, Ian, how about yourself? Quick intro on your pairing? Yeah. So, uh, Ian

Garrett, co founder and CEO of Baylinks. And we are a data security platform that, uh, automates the file protections for both local and cloud, uh, environments. So, um, especially with our MSP partnerships.

Uh, they love that data security option. Um, pairing wise, let's go, uh, with the food theme. And all of them are going to say pickles and pizza. Nice. Oh, interesting. Um, uh, I don't know if, uh, I don't know. I don't remember the first time. Actually, you know what it was, uh, it was, I ordered a pizza in Korea and instead of like, it just came with a bunch of pickles and I was like, Let's let's go with that.

I was like, you know what, this, this pairing is, is awesome. For one, it came with pickles and it came with just like packets of hot sauce. And then, so put them on the pizza and I was like, this, this is definitely a repeat for me, so, uh, brought that back. And, uh, yeah, I mean, if you haven't tried it, you got to try it.

Get, get, get, uh, get some good pickles, get some good pizza. Or even some mediocre,

that's one of the more unique parents I've ever heard from a food. This is

never heard of that before. This is why we have the pairings. This is the, that's the type of pairing I'm looking for right there. That's something, something I can try.

And then we never do

again. That's not, that sounds good. Is it, was it like a, like a bread and butter pickle or like a sweet pickle or pickle you're into? Um, yeah,

whatever, whatever kind you like usually do that. And just whatever pizza you go for. Um, you honestly can't go wrong. Have you, have you tried different flavors Ian?

Like sweet and spicy and yeah. I mean, pretty much I'll again, I'll again, dill pickles. Bread and butters, uh, I love spicy stuff so spicy pickles is Anyway, I'm a big banana

pepper fan on pizza, so you're not far off. We're kind of in the same family right there. So, um, I dig it. Cool. All right. Uh, let's, uh, let's pivot into, uh, into the core of today's episode.

So like I mentioned earlier, you know, we're, we're diving into the vendor MSP relationship and kind of hearing firsthand how startups can creatively navigate a channel vendor approach to. Getting their product, uh, in the hands of more customers and ultimately scaling their business as well. Uh, we'll dissect some of the challenges that, that are faced by both parties to, to kind of tailor the product or integrate the technology effectively.

And then, uh, we can wrap with some, some insights on maybe some future trends that are emerging across MSP services, uh, and product development landscape. So let's start with you and, um, can you give us first, just like a quick pitch on failings and then. What, you know, what problems your tech is solving and expand on this channel vendor dynamic and why this, why relationships with MSPs are so essential for you?

Yeah. So the biggest area that we're helping out from a data security perspective is, um, having talked to enough MSPs, we learned that a lot of the data loss prevention type solutions, uh, aren't very, for one channel friendly, which I'm sure we'll get into. Uh, what that all entails, but also they're not very scalable.

Um, and most importantly, from an MSP perspective, they are a time and labor suck. So, uh, with all those things combined, uh, you know, a lot of organizations are having troubles with existing data loss prevention solutions. So we wanted to take a different approach to it. So instead of saying. Um, hey, we're gonna restrict, you know, with policies and we're gonna try to stop data from moving around.

We said, what if we just took the security and applied it directly to the data itself? Um, in this case, you know, documents, files, any kind of unstructured data in that sense. And what if we just had that? All across the organization, so that's essentially what we did, you know, we have, uh, and then the last piece to was how do we make it so that it's not a time suck on the operators.

So we want it to be automated. We wanted to, and then the final piece was from the human error perspective, as we all know. Uh, from a cyber perspective, uh, humans are the weakest link. Um, so with that, we want the security to, to be, uh, defaulting on security and not defaulting on, uh, insecurity, I guess, uh, and having the end user needed to do something to be secure.

Uh, whether that's even like clicking a button. So with that, it automatically, uh, individually encrypts the files across, uh, the environment, whether that's local or cloud, um, and then essentially allows for the organization to pass data back and forth, uh, without having to worry about where is it at. Uh, and then again, kind of restricting the access to each of those files, uh, to who the data ownership is.

Yeah, obviously I want to, uh, pull on this thread a little bit, but a couple of quick hits on Phalanx, you know, how, how old is the company and you know, how, how big are you all just from like a headcount perspective?

Um, we have been around since then, uh, raised some capital from, uh, VCs. As well, some angels, uh, still pretty small team, honestly, the big focus on automation, uh, we bring that in house to our entire goals. How do we be as efficient as possible with resources? We got, um, so, you know, we're, we're still a small team.

We're, uh, spread across the U. S. So. Um, the headquarters is in Virginia in Arlington. Um, but you know, and then the founders are in Virginia, but outside of that team spread, we've got some Texas, uh, some New Mexico, uh, not anyone in Arizona yet, but Um, people in that region, so Texas for a while. So, uh, we'll be targeting their net next

and fun fact to your co founders, your brother.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So originally that was the episode I wanted to create with you. Let's, let's, let's talk about that for a little bit. You know, most

people are like, wow, that, uh, I could never, honestly, we have pretty complimentary skillsets. Um, so like I went down the south cyber route, um, yeah, I've been pretty from an academic perspective, it was down like a computer sciency, computer engineering all the way.

Um, but from a experience wise, you know, between the army and everything else, a really deep dive into all the cyber related activities. Um, and then for him, it's really just been, uh, full on with the software engineering and systems engineering. So. Like while I knew how to do some really hard, interesting things with machines, uh, I didn't know how to build a robust, scalable enterprise ready system.

Um, the thing about cyber related. Uh, programs, it's not really designed to last long. Um, so, uh, yeah, so he's been perfect to, to build out as our CTO that, that whole, and pretty much he watches me do stuff like podcasts or anything else, raise money. And he goes, ah, I don't want to do that. So he's

like.

Coding is

great for me. Cool. Yeah. It sounds like a good compliment. Um, awesome. Well, yeah, thanks for kind of expanding a little bit on, on, uh, you know, how you all are going to navigating, uh, that channel vendor relationship. Um, and so Brian, you know, just, you know, maybe you can, for one, I don't know how many of our listeners might be completely privy to like how this whole, the channel works, right.

Um, so maybe you can expand a little bit on that and then, uh, speak a little You know, some, some of those, you know, maybe the integration challenges that maybe you face with bringing in new vendor products and how you're kind of like, you know, going through that selection process.

Yeah. Uh, I mean, if for anyone that doesn't know what an MSP is, it is a different beast, uh, and it's its own beast and by itself.

But basically, we're, you know, MSP provides I. T. Services. So for companies that are looking to supplement I. T. Services or upgrade their I. T. Staff or maybe fill a gap, or maybe they're just replacing their entire I. T. Staff and M. S. P. Can come and help them provide a lot of those services, um, to their users for the organization.

Um, so they don't have to go spend a bunch of money or hire a bunch of people or, you know, go spend a bunch of money on certifications, whatever it is. So we can really bridge that gap for most companies. Um, and so for us, we're in all in one. So you have to kind of eat all of our services. We call them empower.

Uh, and so it's, uh, we have these 10, we call them seat belts of our, of the responsible I. Architecture, and so you kind of consume all those. And making sure that, uh, we're protecting you, you know, from backups to, uh, EDR to monitoring, patching all the table stake, normal, and my MSP services, uh, that most people kind of consume, um, from a product standpoint.

It's a little different. So when you're someone like an internal I. T. Department buying something versus an N. S. P. Buying a tool to to, uh, ultimately deliver a service to a customer to completely set of criteria, but also similar criteria. You know, you want to you want a good partner. You want a good company.

You want a good service. You want to supply. The product that meets the service, you may want to combine them together, but there's like three major things, at least that we look at when we look at a product, because everyone's trying to sell me something every single day. Um, and because I own internal and external, you know, they get lucky.

So hopefully I can get one or the other, but if you're an MS, someone that owns the tools for MSPs, you're looking for a product to help really, uh, Provide a specific set of services. So one is a single pane of glass. You want the ability to see all of your clients in one place that you don't want to log into different multiple systems or navigate to multiple screens.

You really want to be able to see 1 client or immediately be able to see all of them just in a click or 2. The 2nd thing is I kind of mentioned it earlier is. Does the product, does the product meet the level of service that you're defining for your clients? So does it integrate with your solutions and services, especially around PSAs?

PSA is a, uh, a tool that MSPs use that typically IT teams don't use. Uh, professional services automation is what that stands for. Um, so there's like connect wise and ninja, the different tools out there, but those are a couple of them. Um, so you want to make sure it doesn't, doesn't integrate with that. So you can have that single pane of glass, there's billing pain points, all those types of things.

Uh, Ian mentioned earlier, scalable. That's a big deal for MSPs. Um, specifically us, we, uh, we have about 80, 000 endpoints. So we're one of the mid tier, larger MSPs. Of smaller MSPs, you know, they're you five, maybe 10. That's where most of the MSPs, um, channel focuses on, on those smaller ones because there's, I dunno, 40 of them out there in the, something like that.

Um, so that makes sense for them to focus on. So a lot of the tools we just look at and like, if you can't service as many endpoint as we have, you know, it's not a good fit for us. Right. So that's an important piece. And then finally, uh, I mentioned a little bit is a consolidated billing. So can we see each client what, what each client is being billed for?

So if we deploy. Uh, 50 agents, can we see that? But also when we get our invoice, we don't want to see every single client and every single agent. We just want one invoice. Is that consolidated billing? So, you know, there's other things, but those are the three major ones. You know, we look at security, we do vendor due diligence, pricing, of course, I don't like to put that at the beginning, but that is a major factor.

Uh, you know, got to keep our prices down so we can, um, obviously sell to our clients. The level of service, reputation in the market, that's a big one, especially in the security industry. Sure. No, Ian. I'm sure I can talk about that. Um, and then, as I mentioned, it's scalable. Can we, can, that's a big one for us also in our, kind of on our land.

Yeah, that's helpful to catch it from that perspective. Uh, Ian, I'm curious from your side, you know, when, you know, when you're, you know, presenting your products, are you doing any customization or tailoring it, uh, based on, you know, the, the MSP that you're catering to? Like, you know, one's larger, I mean, obviously we're talking about scale.

You know, that's, that's going to be something you're going to want to accommodate, but is there any other like, uh, I guess customization that, that you're, you're bringing along when you're. Looking at one MSP or another, uh, I mean, honestly,

building in the ability to be flexible, uh, is the most important part of that.

Right. So, uh, early on, uh, we had a design partner and it's like years ago. Uh, and they said pretty much if you want to, if you want to settle the channel, uh, you need multi, like if you don't have that, and Brian mentioned it, you don't want to have to log into, if you have Five different customers, you know, that's annoying.

You have 10, 000 customers. Can you imagine having to manage that many lock ridiculous? Not to mention if you have no way to aggregate what's going on across all your customers, um, you're losing a lot of Intel at that point too.

Yeah.

Um, but that being said, once you have that built in, uh, you know, that could be for one.

A single tenant, so that MSP, if they're managing one customer with whatever 10 licenses that can be done, but it also could be managing 10, 000 customers, 8, 000 endpoints. It doesn't change on our end. Once we build the software, we build the software. Um, and then same with the, like, single sign on, for example, that was another, another big ones.

If, if they have, they're already integrating in, they're already deploying out, say, Microsoft. Um, they wanted to be able to talk to each other. Um, and again, we put all these things in place so that the customer is able to take their tech stack and we're able to seamlessly go into their tech stack. Uh, without having to do a custom modification

when we had our disco call, you're the one that kind of brought this topic up because you think, you know, I think it's interesting as a startup founder myself, right?

Been been building a small business, um, you know, sales is obviously, you know, a huge challenge for any company that has no brand reputation recognition out there in the marketplace. How did you, how did you fall into this strategy? You know, it was like an aha moment or, you know, what, what led you down this path to determine like, this is going to be a better, a much easier or not easier, but a much more efficient approach to scaling, you know, uh, from a sales perspective versus going directly to these onesie Tuesday, it teams.

Yeah, I mean, it goes into, uh, where was the pain point, right? So, uh, when we talk, when we're talking to security teams and CISOs, you know, people understood what we were doing, people got it, but they also were like, well, you know, we, we had, we're buying three or four different DLPs, you know, we'll toss it on the pile with the rest of them, uh, maybe, so, you know, it was, it was more of a nice to have, uh, but when we were talking to MSPs.

Um, actually, honestly, they came to us. That was that was where it started. Uh, we started to have an increase of people reach out to us via the website. Um, just saying like, hey, do you have a channel program that we can use to distribute to our customers? Um, and after talking to a couple of MSPs, they said, that's unheard of.

Like, an MSP is never going to reach out to you like that. So, you better, uh, pull that thread to figure out what's going on there. Um, so we, you know, we just went where the pain and having been

on. So I've, uh, like Brian, I've been, uh, I'm the head of technology. I'm internal and external and security and the rest of it.

And always small startup type companies. So get the value of the MSP have probably had that same conversation with you, Ian, about like, yeah, we have a ton of DLPs. We'd love to do all this, but you know, whatever it is, but like, don't have the, I don't have the team. To like, manage all that stuff and whatever.

And so I totally get that value. And I think what's interesting is, and I wonder from your perspective, selling directly to a small company, multi tenancy, that's one thing, but you're actually talking to. A MSP, so it's really multi multi tenancy, right? They themselves have multiple customers, so it's like the way you would architect that and making sure that you still have all the delineation of data, like all that stuff is still very different, I think, than how you would design just a typical multi tenant.

Architecture, because there's an actual extra tenant sort of in that, in that mix, right? The MSP, um, is that something you guys sort of did from the start? Or was that something you had to add once these MSPs started coming and talking to you? And you're like, Oh, we need to figure out how to, how to solve that problem.

Yeah, it was pretty early days. Uh, and again, we had a design partner that, uh, that was pretty big on helping us with making a couple of these major decisions that from our perspective, wasn't too bad if we were baking it in as we're building it in the early days, right? That's what it would be that if we had to go attack it on after the fact, which I think most.

Products do is they are selling it and they realize, oh, we want to go to the channel and then they go, oh, no, we have to have all these random, you know, quality of life add ons and then it becomes an add on, which makes it more difficult to actually navigate.

Brian, I'm curious from, from your side and maybe, you know, maybe it's not an integrous, maybe, you know, if you worked at pre at MSPs previously, um, or prior to, so maybe smaller or, or, um, uh, yeah, maybe a smaller, uh, scenario might be relevant to this question, but yeah, when you're going through that kind of like that product selection, you know, how do you navigate that?

Like, how are you weighing your options? And then, uh, the follow on to that would be, you know, once you kind of kick off that engagement. You know, what does that feedback loop look like in terms of, you know, connecting with your customers and relaying back to your vendors on like how it's working or, you know, what you could do to improve or what have you.

Yeah, it's a quick question. So I actually, my last MSP was twice the size, so it's the only bigger ones that I've ever tested.

Sorry.

It doesn't work.

Approach

from

Integra's

set up perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, I approach it just like I would when I own internal IT. Like, we, we come up with a list.

What's, you know, what are we looking at? And then we grade that, you know, what are our objectives? What are our features and tools that we're looking at? And so you have that evaluation because you You can just look at products all day, but unless you, at the end of the day, have some type of point value and you look at all the vendors, you don't look at.

30 maybe at a normal IT environment, but in MSP, you're going to find maybe five or six, like just a smaller group set. You still need to have that visual at the end of the day to understand, you know, what the grade is. What does that look like? Oh, I remember they did have that. That is that. Uh, and so looking at, cause a lot of times you're like, I love this.

It continues. It's the gift of the keeps on giving in terms of feedback loops. I think a lot of it has to do with trust. So when you Uh, when you have a vendor MSP relationship, I believe a trust led relationship can resolve any issue, uh, that someone might encompass. So it's at the forefront of the relationship and, and, and communication is that that is that foundation and the most important part.

Um, you don't want to be hiding things or if the vendor is hiding things and not communicating to each other issues that have. You're just not going to have that solid foundation and not be able to build that relationship over time. Um, but if, you know, you have that and then you start talking about expectations and you start planning ahead.

So where MSPs can provide a vision for the, for the vendor, whether that's one, two, three years down the line. So that they can align as it goes, because you never know what that vendor is going to develop. I'm sorry, Ian, no matter what they tell you, at some point, you know, they're going to be agile, just like we're agile, right?

So just because they said they're going to do something in three years, I mean, six months from now, that could completely change because, especially in the security market, because things are moving so fast. Um, we, we switch out our tools very quickly on the security side. If, you know, something's heading in the direction that we need to based on where the security, um, the pain points, as Ian said, are going.

So I think that's important, but, you know, aligning that and filling those gaps, I think, and having the communication, all of those, you have that feedback loop. I mean, that's how you both are ultimately

successful. Speaking of that feedback loop, I wonder, like, how frequent it happens where. Either the, the vendor, you're using the vendor internally on your own stuff so that it's not just, uh, using it for my part for my customers, but also from the vendors perspective, like the vendor using the MSP for their own security, right?

Like, as a small business. I couldn't like, I couldn't have the security team that I needed. I will have, I mean, I may do with the budget I had, but I would have loved to have had an NSP at one of the companies. Um, so that type of thing, I like, how often does that happen where the, there's a, like a vendor.

Uh, MSP where they're each other's customer in a, in a way. I'm curious what your experience with that is. Yeah.

Um, how do I say this? 50% of the time, none of the time . So, uh, I guess is a better way to say it. So, uh, we, uh, they're different needs, right? As I mentioned earlier, a, an a, a vendor that provides MS.

P services or, or products. Is so much different than someone that a vendor that doesn't provide that. And there are vendors, very few vendors that do both. So it's not like you just, you can use one or the other. Sometimes it works where we'll get maybe NFR licenses. So we buy it for our customers and then we'll negotiate NFR licenses internally.

And that works, but not all products work for us. That also worked for our customers. You think about it, like it's just it. No, it's different. We're not a. We're not an MSP. And so we're providing services to our users, internal users, but they're not MSP users, right? It's just a different mindset and, uh, and, uh, and requirements.

So yes, sometimes we do that. I would say it's about 50 percent of the time, but we also, we lean against it. It's not like, let's eat our own dog food. That's, that's, this is one of the times you don't want to go through that. You want to make sure you're what your users expectations are and the services you need to provide to them.

You focus on that and then you also focus on your customer side. And that's why I have two completely separate teams, uh, managing both sides because, uh, you know, you have access controls, so we don't want to have access to customer data versus them have access to internal data. That's another issue. So it's just, you know, we look at each one every time and see if it fits.

If it fits great and it makes sense, let's do it. If not, that's okay. We'll figure out whatever makes sense. And

Ian, you know, you know, plugging you back into this whole feedback loop, uh, process. You know, how is it. That you're, you know, what, what is your, your approach to, to navigating that, uh, you know, product feedback and then how does that, you know, kind of revert back into your product roadmap and such.

Yeah. So, uh, one of the biggest challenges as a product, uh, going through MSPs actually is that you're further removed from the end user. Um, so obviously you have a subset of users that is the MSP customer. But then you have the people actually interfacing with the product, which is often not the MSP and their customers.

And again, as Brian mentioned. You know, we offer the licenses if they look, most of our customers use it internally too, which is great. And, you know, those are licenses provided to the MSP. Um, for internal use, but you know, not, not, as you said, not every solution makes sense for that kind of, uh, that kind of capability.

So, um, and then going back to the original question, we, uh, we have a couple of different areas where we have the MSPs provide us, uh, feature requests. So, and then pretty much they're able to vote. So once I get most voted, uh, go, you know, I mean, not this, we still do our internal rack and stack, but. Um, you know, that way we know what are people interested in why, you know, and then especially, uh, depending on which the use cases surrounding it, you know, we'll have a conversation.

Hey, I saw that you requested, you know, this dashboard thing move over here or that, you know, you can some of these analytics cards can be moved over there. Like, what. Uh, why? Or like, you wanted an API for this, why? Um, and then, so we'll start seeing some, you know, activity around. Let's say, uh, like, oh, like, this data is great, super rich, but we'd love to see it in our scene.

Um, and then, so, you know, that's, that's a use case, that's definitely. Again, going back to scalable, like there's a lot of people that could use that kind of capability versus someone saying, oh, I just need one very specific customer with this one very specific use case. And it's like, we would love to provide custom solution there, but.

Uh, we got to focus on the majority, right? Nobody else is gonna pay

for it. I'm curious. Is it open to other people? See what the, um, what other customers are sort of requesting?

Uh, yeah. Yeah. So, um, I forget the, uh, that's a big of the link. It's it's another, it's that's another solution that we're using. Um, that does the kind of voting system.

That's awesome.

Yeah. 1 of the things that we've got a lot of benefit out of 1 of the companies as that was, we had like, a little, uh, we had our top, uh, customers, like, in a, in a thing. And we had them like, here's 5 balls and you can put 1 ball and then there's 10 baskets and you get to vote on, like, some of the features, but it was.

What was great was a lot of them were like, oh, I didn't even think of that. But yeah, I would like to put 3 of my balls in that basket because that's that's really important. So having that sort of open feedback is, I think, really good. Um, the counter is I won't name the company, but they have their own online.

You can see voting for features and some of the. Most, uh, upvoted features are also the ones that have been open for 10 years. Um, and the only time they get updated is, Is this ever going to happen?

No, a few

of those, unfortunately. We are able to put the road, uh, put it on like a projected road map with that thing, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It gives the projection, which I mean, again, you know, as Brian said, things change. So exactly right. Anything that's more than

six months out might as well just be three years out.

There's no difference. If it's six months, three years, it's all the same. It's horizon. That's

interesting, Mike. Um, I, I feel I bring that company on, uh, as an episode, but, um, I, I guess in kind of closing on, on, you know, looking forward to some of the future. Brian, I'm, I'm curious from your perspective, right, because, you know, obviously we're in the age of, of AI, you know, everything, um, how often are you getting, you know, tapped to, you know, this is an AI tool that I think will really, you know, just be a game changer for us and, you know, what, what are the, you know, what are you hearing and, and what, what are you kind of, are you cautiously like proceeding or how you're approaching, you know, You know, AI, you know, uh, as a tech modernization, your resource for your customers.

Yeah, I mean, I get maybe six to eight emails or LinkedIn requests a day just on AI alone. I mean, that's not talking about everything else. It's pretty ridiculous. Um, I, I'm a fan of AI, of what it can do, but I like to call it automation intelligence rather than artificial intelligence, because that's really where we're at, right?

I call it a bunch of dips. I like that a bunch. I'm gonna steal that, Michael. I like that. By all means, steal it. Yeah, I, I think what vendors and, and, and different software vendors are doing today is they're finally realizing, Oh, I need to put automation in and call it AI. Um, it's because they, five years, they're five years behind and putting automation on the product.

If you look at them, I mean, just to be honest, if they, I think if you got them in a room with no cameras, that's probably what they'd say. Um, and then they're calling it AI. And so. It's great. I mean, ultimately the, the end user that, that they're selling to, their customers are getting significant benefit and efficiencies out of what they're creating because they shoulda have had it in their product already and they've either developed it outside or just, you know, figured out how to do it internally.

So that's kind of how I see it. But I mean, AI can be, a game, can be and is gonna start being a game changer for the MSPs. It's just where right. Um, for us, we're focusing both internally and externally on it. Um, so I actually have a dedicated software engineering team, and on that team, we have automation architects that focus on not just automation, but also implementing AI, which we've released some internally, some gen, some gen AI stuff.

And then for our customers, we're doing a lot of things behind the scene. Really for us, it's coming down to, um, how do we monetize data? Um, so around the data automation or around the automation, uh, intelligence, the AI. So, um, really just creating experiences from data that creates value in a way that customers are just not able to provide themselves.

Uh, so ultimately doing, uh, discovering trends and patterns and actual intelligence and, and customer, uh, providing a customer's intelligence service, that's kind of where we're. Kind of how we're handling it and then bundle that with integration. So, you know, providing more than just the break, fix, comprehensive set of solutions and, um, things that MSP would normally provide, but more of a strategy and a platform that can buy into and trust and just drive those digital transformations in their business as well.

So that's kind of what we're focusing on the back Um, we, we are, we're calling ourselves the next gen MSP. I think that's truly, it's not, you know, it's not a buzzword we're saying. That's something we're really trying to strive to, uh, and, and AI or automation and behind the scenes is a lot of that is driving that for us.

Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll pass it to you, Ian, in terms of, you know, how you're, uh, you know, just, uh, approaching, you know, how AI could, you know, impact your all's business at large, but also, you know, when you think about how it translates into. You know, supporting your customers and anything specific that's comes that comes to mind or that you guys are super privy to right now.

Yeah, I mean, so going back to the automation talk I mentioned earlier, that's, you know, that's one of our key tenants. Um, you know, we're, we're a lean team and the only way we can do it is, uh, the automation. Um, but, you know, that being said, uh, and same with any kind of AI related abilities, you know, from a productivity standpoint.

Um, you know, I always think it actually helps the experience, uh, from the customer side, too. Um, you know, ultimately if you're waiting around for a person or you need something changed and it's something that happened, uh, you know, we're in the age of, we want it instant. And, uh, the best way to get instant is either outsource.

So you have 24, 7 up help desk or, uh, leverage at least some sort of automation and AI for, for that. Um, and at least what I've seen is, uh, a lot of people have enjoyed being able to get instant answers. Um, but yeah, beyond that, like our key mission is related to reducing human error and a big piece of that is, you know, don't have people do things because let people focus on the stuff they want to do, right?

And the stuff that's important, the stuff that they bring value to whoever their customers are and whatever that looks like. And, you know, we can focus on automating as many configurations, automating away, you know, as much of that, uh, that lift, the technical lift away from, you know, again. Ultimately, they got better things to do.

So the more we can make their jobs easier, the more they can provide more back to their customers.

I love that tagline. Just don't let people do things, you know, like just keep people out of the equation.

I don't remember seeing that on your website, Ian, but if you don't have, if you don't have it there, you need to ask.

Yeah. Yeah.

Let's

get that

up. We used to have pretty a lot everywhere. Honestly, I used to, I did a lot of like a cyber conferences and, uh, for one of, one of the talks I'll give, I have this big slide. That's just like people are the problem.

I mean, I, I usually go with trying to make it easier for people to do the right thing or just make it the right thing by default or whatever.

But I do like that. Don't let people do things off. I know clearly. Um, but on the, on the, I think I still like it, especially in cyber. Um, I still remember, um, my call with, uh, the founder of signal science is when we're looking at getting a laugh and. And him going, like, it's, we don't use AI, it's descriptive statistics.

It's just that easy. I was like, yep, sold. Like, I don't need the AI. Like, this was a few years ago before the AI hype. Like, it was at the very, very beginning of it. But like, yeah, there's so much you can get done with, with other, with descriptive statistics and other things and automation. And whatever. And, um, and I was like, yeah, I appreciated the, like, just the transparency.

I'm like, yeah, we're not, it's not really like we use good old fashioned analytics and we can stop a lot of threats, um, and, and do a lot of things that way. Um, and I think. AI and cyber is a, is a, is an interesting, um, place, uh, intersection, uh, uh,

uh, sounds like another future episode right there. I mean, I, um, yeah, yeah, uh, I, I think that's a good kind of transition point.

Um, let, let's go ahead and put a bill on it and, uh, transition transition to our final segment here, which is the five second scramble. So. I'm just going to spitball a couple of rapid fire Q and A, uh, with both of the guests. Uh, Mike, why don't you kick things off with Brian and then I will lead it with, with Ian.

All right. Sounds good. Uh, you ready, Brian?

Serve me a softball. Oh yeah. I'll start off with a soft one. Uh, explain integrus to me. Like I'm a precocious five year old. Wow.

Um, wow. Uh. We, uh, we do, uh, see, we provide services, uh, man, we provide technology like your little laptop that you, that you put keys on, uh, and, uh, and other technology like your other, you know, iPod and your iPad that your mommy and daddy gave you that, uh, and we help you, you know, run it easier so you can play more games and break the screen more.

Nice. Uh, bravo. Well played.

Um, aside from AI, what's an emerging technology that you're excited about? Uh, oh,

that's a great question. There is, um, I mean, I gotta be honest. AI is kind of my favorite. I know that's, I kind of, that goes against what I just said. Um, I know now I'm like, now I'm backtracking. I'm like, dang it, I should have said that.

Um, that's, I mean, that's, I'm, I probably spend 30 percent of my time. You know? Reading about AI stuff. Um, let's say, uh, you know, like edge computing is good. I mean, all that that's coming out quantum, quantum computing. There we go. That's something that's massive. That's what I was looking for. Yeah, let's go with quantum computing because that's, you know, stuff.

Yeah, quantum computing. I will

go with that. That's good. Uh, what type of technologist thrives at Integrus? What type of technology or technologist?

Sorry, technologist

person.

Um, I mean, it varies because if you think of an MSP, we're a company too, right? So we've got folks that are super techie and they, um, they want to, they want to get really in the technical details both internally but also with our customers.

And you've got salespeople, you've got engineers, you've got support people, you've got, we have a whole dedicated cyber security team that provides service to our customers and you got cloud. So it's, it's a range of technical expertise. Uh, as well as focus, but then you also have folks that, you know, they want, all they want to do is play with toys all day.

So they want to play with a Microsoft copilot and they want to play with the AI tools and those type of things. And you've got people that all they want to do is improve stuff, right? So they want to just get better and make the company better. So I think anyone that for us, we are a people first company, that's, that's kind of our culture, but we're also a customer first company.

So regardless of. What you like, as long as those two things are in line, you can pretty much be any type of technologist in the company.

Nice. Um, I think you just answered this, but I'll go with it anyway. Uh, what's your favorite, uh, company, uh, value or cultural value at, at, at Nyquist? Yeah,

people first.

Yeah, that, that is my favorite one. There's only four, but that is my most favorite one out of all of them. Clearly, I should have started with that as the

softball. Um,

yeah, there you go. That would have been a much better softball, yes. Uh, what's the

best piece of advice you've

ever been given? Um, version one is better than version none, so I have a pretty good software development background and one of my mentors has always told me like, just get it out, like ship it.

It's better than nothing. You could spend all day doing something, but if you just get version one, that's all. I tell everyone that and they think I just came up with it, but I, uh, I got that about 15 years ago. I mean, I've heard it before,

but I'm definitely stealing it. Cause uh, it works where I am right now.

Um, what, what was your favorite, uh, cereal as a child? As a kid growing up, uh, I Lucky charms. I mean,

my last name's lucky. You can't go wrong. You have to, it. It's, it's spelled differently. But I, I was always like, I'm eating my own cereal. This is from my family. It was Lucky

Charms. Always nice. All right. Uh, I wasn't gonna go with this one, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

Uh, what's the, uh, largest land animal you think you can take in a fight? No weapons, uh, no weapons, land

animals, largest one who maybe a monkey cause they're small enough. I can throw them around, you know, something like that. They're super strong. I'll go with that. I know. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a gorilla or an ape.

I'm talking about a monkey. Like the little ones. I understand. All right. Um, I'm not a small man, but I think I can take a little monkey.

There you go. What's a, uh, this'll be a good segue. What's a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Man, there's a lot. I, um, so yeah, there's a lot, a lot of stuff in my family history and especially my daughters and everything, but anything that has to do with like battered women and, uh, and those types of things. I'm all over it. I don't even have a favorite one. I was like, I'll just cave all day every day.

Expect some impounds on that. Um, yeah. Who's your favorite Disney character? Uh, Donald Duck. All right. And last one. Uh, what was your dream job as a kid?

So when I was eight, I told my grandpa and I told everyone in my family, I wanted to be a salesman. Uh, my, my, my, my grandfather, when he was, when I was younger, when he was working, cause he's retired now and old, uh, he used to be one of like the top salesmen in the regions for a bostage, which is now bostage used to be Lou Rents way back in the day.

So that's called Stanley. I think Stanley bostage. Um, so you've probably heard on there, the yellow and the black, you go to Lowe's or, you know, whatever. And he was like the guy he would for like 10 years straight, every quarter he was the guy. And so he would teach me little things about sales and people and don't talk with your hands and always look people in your eye and shake their hand.

And so like, I want to be a sales person, just like my grandpa. So that's what I wanted to be. And I was that for a few, few part of the years. And thankfully I'm out of that now. So

that's, uh, that's awesome. I think, I don't think we've had salesmen as a, as an answer to that. That's great. It's a great skill,

skillset that, that, that's the thing, like my, you know, my background and you look and you're like, how did you become a CIO?

And I think, you know, being a salesperson and, and you know, not, not, not lying and being truthful, that's a big thing. But also just that, how to develop a relationship. We talked about that, like vendors, right? Developing and that's huge. And so being able to develop and, you know, talk and those type of things, I think was actually set me up for success.

So. Awesome. Good stuff. Alright, Ian, uh, we'll close with you. You, you ready? Let's go. I got Mike, I like how you added precocious five year old. Yeah. All right. Wait, what? All right. So Ian, uh, pitch a phalanx to me as if I were a slower, uh, five year old.

All right. Well, uh, businesses have important files and sometimes people make mistakes where people who are not supposed to see it, sees it and bad things happen.

Phalanx helps you to not have to worry about that.

Perfect. Uh, how would you describe the culture at Phalanx?

Uh, I think so. Speaking about values. One of the ones that, uh, we always focus on is just never getting too comfortable. Which I know some people are like, Oh, that's awful, but. I mean, it comes down to emerging tech.

You know, we're always looking out to what's the, what's the latest, um, but also, you know, as a startup, especially you can't, you can't just sit back and hope you got to, you're not doing it. It's not happening. So, uh, you know, we're, we're fast paced and we're, we're quick, but, uh, you know, we, we always want to make sure and really for each other, you know, we're taking care of each other by.

Making sure we're showing up as our best, and if we can't, then if you, if we got to take a, take a break and take a knee, like we're all about that too. So it's not all just breakneck speed. It's making sure that you're able to bring what you're, what you should be bringing to the table. And if you need a break, go take a break.

I like that.

Yeah, never, never getting too comfortable. That's a good one. Um, what kind of technologists would you say thrives in Phalanx environment?

Yeah. So, I mean, it starts again from the top level and for my brother and I, we just love to build. That's what drove us for Phalanx that drives, you know, every day, really.

So, um, and we're really, the kind of person that wants to come join is really someone who wants to build something new for the industry, you know, so it doesn't just, again, um, Minor increment of the increase of better, or, um, you know, just kind of doing the day to day, but really bringing an innovation, uh, to life.

It's super exciting. It pumps me up when I, when I see the other team, the members get pumped up.

Nice. Any specific kind of roles that you're hiring for that you want to plug? Uh, not at the moment.

So, uh, we, we did recently just bring on a couple of folks, uh, more in the growth realm. Um, but, uh, honestly, it's probably gonna be more growth and more engineering in the near future, but, uh, nothing at the moment.

So,

uh, so, so for my research, I think this is your first, uh, startup. Uh, and so I, I'd love to ask, you know, what, what's one of the biggest challenges that you've faced with building an early stage startup?

Yeah. So, um, for any potential founders out in the world, uh, that come from a technical background, like myself, uh, you're going to have to learn how to be a salesperson.

So that was the biggest thing was, uh, just, yeah, just understanding, go to market and standing the reality that, um, you know, you just got to be out there selling, selling all the time. Um, and if that's, you know, for me, it wasn't, that wasn't where I came from, right. I had engineering background. Um, but that's, that's part of the building process and ultimately you can, you can take that into every facet of, you know, you're selling the team, selling the vision to, uh, investors and selling the product, obviously.

Um, and I'm teaching our, especially from channel perspective, I'm teaching our partners how to sell down to their, their customers. So. Uh, yeah, and tell me all day

it plays into Brian when, you know, your, your dream job as a kid. Um, yeah. What, uh, aside from your phone, what's a tech gadget that you can't live without?

Oh, uh, you know, it's a weird one, but, uh, I love like the color led lights, like the like Phillips Hughes. So like. Something about it just makes me happy in the house. I have them set up everywhere. Um, more automations, but I just. I just love like end of the day, it's like a visual reminder, like regular lights go on fun color lights come on or regular let's go off fun color lights come on.

And it's like, all right, time to just sit back and relax.

Yeah. I feel like that's why I'm, uh, drawn to Brian's backdrop. Like that, that is like a cool, like backlit, uh, globe scene. So

it does like change colors and jumps around everything. It's our whole dance party.

Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll save that for the, uh, for the sequel here, the, the next, uh, the next episode, uh, go, go to dessert, uh, Ian, what, what, what are you going with?

Dessert? Uh, brownies with chocolate chips in them. Whoa. Uh, favorite business book that you would recommend to fellow entrepreneurs?

Yeah. I mean, maybe it's corny, but that, uh, Peter Thiel zero to one, um, that was a great book and we read it kind of early days, uh, and it, a lot of it is. You know, it talks about, uh, just get, ship it, get it out there.

Um, ultimately, and then I guess the biggest thing too, is like, you got to put it out there because whatever you're thinking is probably not what the customer wants, so get it out there, learn, and then make it an iterative process. It's never going to be perfect. And if you let it try to be perfect, it's never going to be perfect.

Favorite charity or corporate

philanthropy?

Yeah, so I mean, really, you know, anything veterans related. Um, I've seen a lot of people have a hard time with their transition out of the military. Um, I've seen a lot of people that have been removed for a while that have a hard time, um, dealing with, you know, some of the things they've gone through.

Um, through the process, or even just haven't had the abilities to be taken care of properly. Um, so any kind of organizations that help support, uh, across multiple facets, right? So that's whether they're, uh, homeless or whether they're just needed, you know, business transition to learn about, you know, what the real world is like, because, you know, when you started 18, uh, you go do the military thing and then you're transitioning out into the regular world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, everyone else has been doing regular world for a decade and you're, you know, you show up with no, even in that case, you know, love to see, uh, support.

Cool. Yeah, we do a lot of episodes around that type of stuff too, just cause of our proximity to DC. So, uh, appreciate the plug. Uh, and then, uh, Worst wash, sorry, worst fashion trend that you've ever followed.

Ever followed. Yeah. Oh, let's see.

Nice. Yeah. We'll get a picture of that for the, your headshot for the image of the episode. And then last thing. Yeah. What was your dream job as a kid? Yeah. So for me, it was as

a business owner, um, don't come from a family of, uh, entrepreneurs per se, but, uh, I always just loved the idea of building something and growing something and, you know, really being able to take charge of, um, so yeah, it is much harder than, and then, uh, a child me would have imagined, but yeah.

Yeah. Uh, rewarding every day,

either way. Well, kudos on, uh, yeah, pursuing your dream. Um, and that's it. Uh, thank you guys so much. You've both been great guests. Appreciate your insights on the Vendor MSP relationship. Um, and, uh, uh, thanks for spending time with us here on The Pod. Yep, thanks so much.

Thanks,

Travis.

Yeah, thanks for having us.