CTO Wisdom with Charity Majors | Beyond the Program

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Enjoy.

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Welcome to CTO Wisdom.

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My name is Eric Brooke.

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This series, we'll talk to leaders

of technology at organizations.

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We'll understand their career, what

was successful and what was not,

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and what they learned along the way.

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We'll also look at what the

tech market is doing today.

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We'll understand where they gather

their intelligence so they can grow

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and scale with their organizations.

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Hi, my name is Eric Brooke

and welcome to CTO Wisdom.

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Today, with us, we have Charity, and

Charity, give us your elevator pitch.

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Charity Majors: Hi, uh, my

name is Charity, I'm the co

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founder and CTO of Honeycomb.

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io, which is, I would say we were

the original observability company.

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Uh, we make observability for software

engineers, um, and it's really about,

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you know, helping to accelerate those

feedback loops that sit at the heart of

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every high performing engineering team.

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Eric Brooke: Awesome.

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So how did you get started in technology?

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What was like, what was your journey

to kind of like coding your first

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line of code or building something?

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What was the thing that

really sparked for you?

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Charity Majors: Yeah, I grew

up in the backwoods of Idaho.

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Very rural.

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I didn't have a computer until I

went to college, um, and I went

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to college on a music scholarship.

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But when I got to school, I realized

that all of the people who got

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their music degrees were still

hanging around the music department

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and working very low wage jobs.

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And I was like, dude, I grew up poor.

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I do not want to be a poor adult.

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And that's when I found computers.

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Um, and I was really taken

by the Unix command line.

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I've always liked words and the, the

command line is just so expressive

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that I found it fascinating.

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So I'm sure that my first line

of code was a bash script.

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Eric Brooke: Oh, great.

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Um, okay.

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So when did you, um, tell us about

your first kind of foray into kind

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of like being paid for kind of

like the work that you were doing?

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Charity Majors: Yeah.

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In, in college.

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I mean, I'm old enough that

back then they actually paid me

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to run the university systems.

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I was assistant men for the CS department,

the best dad department, and then the

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university as a whole, they gave me root.

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I don't think they do that these

days, but back then they gave me root.

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And I, and I parlayed that into a job

at the local web development shop.

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And then by the time I was 18, 19,

I got recruited to come down to San

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Francisco and I've been here ever since.

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Eric Brooke: Awesome.

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Um, so tell us through your career,

like kind of maybe highlight some

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moments before you got to management.

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And then obviously we want to

dig in a little bit about your

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first foray into management.

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Charity Majors: Yeah, you

know, I feel so lucky that I

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got into tech when I did when.

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You know, hiring standards were low,

and if you were curious, interested,

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you know, they could find a job for you.

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You know, the world has changed a lot.

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Uh, I've been watching my little sister

try to find engineering jobs, and I just

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feel so lucky that I got it when I did.

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Um, but I really, you know, as someone

who, I did not, I'm a serial dropout,

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I've never graduated from anything.

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Uh, I, I really kind of made a career

specialty of being sort of the first,

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Infrastructure engineer to join a group

of software engineers, the startup, just

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when they're starting to get customers,

things are starting to get real.

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And helping them sort of grow

up and make reliable systems.

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And I, and I really, I

love being an engineer.

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I really, I really enjoyed that.

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Eric Brooke: So you, when you,

you, you had a love for Unix,

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and then you obviously kind

of went into infrastructure.

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What was it that was kind of like about

infrastructure that really interested you?

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Charity Majors: Oh, the fires,

the firefighting for sure.

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So I got my ADHD diagnosis in

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life make a lot more sense now.

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Like I tried being a straight

up software engineer a couple of

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times and I always got so bored.

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You're sitting down.

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You're like, OK, I know

what I'm building today.

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I know what I'm building tomorrow.

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And.

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Next week and next month and

months after and it's just like

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my brain just like goes off.

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Uh, and for better or for worse, there

are always fires to fight in ops in SRE,

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you know, things are, I have never been

more calm than when everything is on fire.

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Everyone's freaking out.

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And I just like, I hit my groove that

that is the best time to be alive in my

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mind, which is not an uncommon story.

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When you get to know folks in the SRE

community, like There's a lot of us who

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are like, ah, I found a way to focus.

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Life hacks.

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Fires.

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Eric Brooke: Um, do you mind

talking a little bit about how

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you think ADHD has helped you or

hindered you in your career journey?

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Like, what are the things

that you've learned from it?

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Charity Majors: Yeah, you know, I wish

I had realized earlier that there was,

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I just thought it was really weird, you

know, I was homeschooled my whole life.

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I didn't really experience

traditional schooling.

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So I kind of just thought that I didn't

develop the right habits or I always

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struggled with the sleep schedule.

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I always struggled with, you know,

and, and so after starting Honeycomb in

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CEO for a while and my life stopped

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functioning like my everything just

went to hell And in retrospect, I now

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understand that as an engineer One tool

and I used the hell out of that tool.

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The tool is hyper focused, right?

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But I got interested in something I

would never Dive into a hole and I would

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not emerge until I had figured it out,

whether it was hours or days later, you

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know, and that tool got me a long way.

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And then when I became CEO, you

don't get to use that tool, you know?

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And I, I'm not a structured person.

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I'm not a predictable person.

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I'm not a person and I'm not

someone who can just like.

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muster through on willpower.

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You know, like my co founder,

Christine, who structured people who

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can be like, at 10, 20 in the morning

tomorrow, I will sit down at my desk

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and I will write an essay on X, Y, Z.

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And then I will be, I can't do that.

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I need fuel or I literally can't focus.

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Um, and so like a lot of my picking

fights on the internet and the

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public acts of aggression over

the years, I think just been.

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Attributable to trying to bomb my

brain with adrenaline so that I could

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concentrate on something, but as CEO,

I realized that if I had been awake for

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at least 30 hours or so, things kind of

slow down and I could force myself to

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do boring things like expense reports.

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So I just basically for three or four

years, I ran on no sleep, like sleeping

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every two or three days was the only

way I could get myself to force myself

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to, which did not mean I was doing a

good job on any of it, but I could sort

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of, you know, so like, it's, you know,

I, I, I am very grateful for, um, the

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patience that the world has had with me

and sort of figuring out my plumbing.

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And I hope that.

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I hope kids get to figure it out a

lot sooner than I did, because tools,

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medication, God bless drugs, they are

the best thing that ever happened to me.

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Even having a regular schedule, getting

up every day, like delivering his

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promise, like, it's, it's night and day.

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Eric Brooke: I really appreciate you

sharing that, and I think also you've

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shown that even with that diagnosis,

that you have been successful, and it

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shouldn't hinder or push people away.

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And having that diagnosis

has really helped you.

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Charity Majors: Yeah, 100%.

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I mean, tech has long been a

haven for neurodiverse folks.

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You know, there are a lot of ways

in which it plays to our strengths.

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Just that sort of, you're a dog with a

bone, you're curious, you're interested.

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If you can learn to like, align

your curiosity and your interest

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with things that the world

needs, it's a, it's a superpower.

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Eric Brooke: Yeah, I concur.

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Um, so you've traveled a journey.

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Um, you've been like, so you did

a kind of like an icy role and

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individual contributor role for a

while when you first got to management.

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Like, what were the things

that you had to learn?

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Charity Majors: Oh, no, I think

I've learned so much more about

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being a manager since I stopped

being an engineering manager.

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You know, like I think in the moment I

was very reactive and very just sort of

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territorial and kind of, you know, I had

just gone through this acquisition by

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Facebook and I wasn't very happy about it.

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I don't think I was, I wasn't really

a team player in a lot of ways.

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And in retrospect, a lot of these

things make a lot more sense to me.

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Um, but the things that I, you know,

I mean, I think that the first thing

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that every new manager has to figure

out is, is, is just like, You know, you

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became a senior engineer, presumably,

and which means you learned to have,

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have, know how to trust your own

judgment or know when to trust your

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own judgment and when not to, right?

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And when you become a manager, I mean, the

first jarring fact is that you no longer

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know when to trust your judgment or not.

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You might be doing well, you might

not be, you're probably going to

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feel like shit no matter what, right?

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You never get to go home at the end of

the day, feeling like, yes, I did it, I

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built it, I figured it out, I fixed it.

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Achievement unlocked.

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You know, you don't get

that feeling like, as a man.

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Over the years, you learn

to look for those moments.

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They're, they're a bit more muted.

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They're, they're more unpredictable.

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They're more, it's more like someone will

come to you and be like, Hey, that thing

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you did for me three years ago was great.

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And you're like, Oh, that does feel good.

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You know, but it's not like the

dopamine hits that you get as an

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engineer where you're solving puzzles

all day or you just leave work

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feeling just like high on life, right?

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It's not like that.

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So I feel like the first big adjustment

of every new manager is just like,

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you're kind of like you're a beginner.

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You're a beginner again.

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You don't know when or where to

trust your judgment and you don't

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know where to find your joy.

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Eric Brooke: So, yeah, I

concur with all of that.

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It is, you go from competence

to incompetence and it

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doesn't feel comfortable.

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Um, so what were the things that

you would tell now a new manager?

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Here's the one thing you should focus on.

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I know it's very individual, it's

context driven, but what are the

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things that you ask them, like

a new manager, to focus on now?

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Charity Majors: Oh, well, that's a slip.

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You started off asking, what would you

ask your, your past self, which is a

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very, I would tell my past self, if you

don't feel like you could with your whole

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heart or most of your heart represent

the company, you shouldn't be a manager.

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I never felt like I could

represent Facebook as a manager.

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And so I was at odds with the system

kind of fine for an IC in a lot of ways.

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It is not fine for a manager.

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If you can't do that.

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You should take yourself out of that

role ethically, like practically,

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pragmatically, like the idea of managers

as shit umbrellas, that is a flawed model.

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It is not good for you.

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It's not good for them.

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It's not good for the company.

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It's not good for anyone.

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If you're in a place where you feel like

that's your only option, you should.

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Get the hell out of there, you know, at

Facebook, I should have been an engineer.

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I should have rested, invested.

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I should have done my part.

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So I could have checked out at the end

of the day, gone home, been with my

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sweetie, gone out with friends, you know,

and as a manager, you can't do that.

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You know, you take a home with you.

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So much of it is emotional labor.

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You take a home with you.

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And which means that you have to, your job

is to represent the company to your team.

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And if you don't think you

can do that, you can't.

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Don't take the job.

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What I, what I tell new managers now,

like who I think by and large at our

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company, I don't think have that sort

of like tug of war of wills inside

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of them is much more just like, Oh

God, I think some of the best advice

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I ever heard was from Simon Willison.

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He was like, you know, if you're, if

you're a new manager or, or if you're

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not sure if you're a good manager or

not, you know, you can be 90 percent

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of a good manager just by asking

yourself, What would a good manager do?

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Just like, you know, whoever's in

your mental model is a good man,

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just like, what would they do?

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And just do that thing.

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Because like, so much of it is just like

being basic human being, following the

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rules, explaining things to people, you

know, it's not like heroic sin glory and

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all that stuff that you can, you can get

a long way by just like trying to be a

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basic, good human being and manager and

investing in yourself, you know, not

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resting, you know, you're not an expert.

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Slip into beginner mind, ask

questions, open up, be curious, be

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creative, you know, take advantage

of the time for what it is.

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Like the final 10 percent of

being an excellent manager

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is like a lifelong quest.

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So you're not going to

get there overnight.

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You're not going to get there

in the first few years, right?

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And so just like be fine with that.

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Eric Brooke: Yeah, thank you.

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Um, so moving up the kind of

the ladder or, um, is, um, like

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coming to a director where you're

kind of managing other managers.

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Do you have any thoughts about that?

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Or did you learn anything in that part

of your journey where you're managing

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managers but not managing ICs as much now?

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Charity Majors: You know, I think

this is an under, under understood.

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Um, I think a lot of folks have this

idea that being a director, director

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is like being a super manager or

a super senior manager, but it's

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not, it's a whole different role.

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And the Delta between management and being

a director is at least as big as the Delta

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between being an IC and being a manager.

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Now, this is not to say this is true

everywhere because, uh, titles get

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very undisciplined, especially in

startups and people are called directors

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and they do all kinds of things.

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But like my mental model of real

directors is directors run the company.

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They're the ones that are responsible

for taking the strategy, the decisions

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that are being made about resources

by VPs and C levels, and making

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it actually work on the ground.

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So they're responsible for like the

heartbeat of the company, right?

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Making sure that things are high

functioning, that the wheels are

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turning, that people are performing

up to spec, that bad performers are

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getting, holding managers accountable.

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Making sure that the communication

patterns are scaling.

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Looking for, you know, it's

a socio technical machine.

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That's never working perfectly.

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And, and it's, it's the job of directors

to like, it's a lot of abstract thinking.

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It's a lot of relationship building.

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It's a lot of incremental, you

know, work, but it's so important.

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And I feel like, you know, I'm actually

like kind of, I may be writing a series

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on this and on our blog or something.

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Cause I feel like even lots of really

great engineering managers don't actually

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really understand what it is that Upper

levels are looking for in people that

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they want to promote to be a director, you

know, and another aspect that I feel like

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a lot of folks don't really grapple with

is that I feel like making career goals

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in tech is kind of like a fool's errand.

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I think that the best thing you can

really do is like always be learning,

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be curious, be creative, be following,

be aware of what you're enjoying and

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be open to opportunities because all

of the interesting opportunities I've

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ever gotten that were changed my life.

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I was not expecting.

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I was, I was not gunning for them.

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But I was in a position where

I was able to take advantage

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of them when they popped up.

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And I think that tech is so fast,

you know, every step up the ladder

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that you go, there's at least an

order of magnitude fewer openings.

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Which is the way it should be, right?

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So you can't always predict.

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You can try and put yourself in

line to have a good shot at being

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tapped for a director, but you

can't always predict where those

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opportunities are going to open up.

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Uh, so like, I think that like, you

know, building a career where you're

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happy where you are, and you'll

be happy if you don't move up to

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the next level is super important.

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Uh, and I think it is the people who are,

who manage to find that joy, who tend to

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be tapped to do the next level of stuff.

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Eric Brooke: Yeah, I concur.

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Um, so let's move up to exec level.

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Um, and so like either VP of

it and kind of like engineering

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or CTO role, cause obviously it

differs in many different places.

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What would you say is the.

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the magnitude or the changes

that you really have to kind of

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like encompass at that point.

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I have

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Charity Majors: this thing that I keep

chewing over lately, which is just

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like, out of all the C level roles in

the world, CTO is the least formed.

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It's the, it's the only one that there

isn't really a, a predictable pattern for.

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CTOs are all over the freaking map.

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Some of them are ICs, some of them

are, Managers, some of them run orgs,

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some of them encompass product and

design, some of them don't, some of them

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are, you know, some of them are like

extrovert, they're all over the map.

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And when it comes to like VPs,

I feel like engineering VPs have

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historically been sort of like

the junior members at the table.

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Like they are not quite

the top tier execs.

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Consistently, and I think that a lot

of this is because The whole philosophy

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of having a high functioning exec

team is that you co own and understand

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decisions that you make organizationally.

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So, like, the whole exec team needs

to understand, okay, this is our

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marketing strategy for the year.

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Yes, we sign off on this.

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We own this together.

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You know, and I feel like people really

struggle to do that with engineering.

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Some of this is the fault of Other execs

who don't think that they need to learn

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as much about what makes good engineering

orgs as they do about P& L statements.

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Some of this is historically the

fact of engineering orgs who don't

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really try to convert their work

into like the terms of the business,

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but there's been this big gap.

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And I do feel like the end of the

zero interest rate era is forcing

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us to start to close that gap.

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And I think it's painful and

awkward and uncomfortable for us.

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And I think it is so.

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healthy.

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Eric Brooke: I wonder sometimes if we

were to take like one area like delivery,

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who is responsible for delivery?

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Is it product engineering?

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Um, what are the factors

that come into that?

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How predictable is software engineering

in terms of like taking the SAS model

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as opposed to gen AI model for a second?

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Um, and that kind of like when you

look at sales, they often have like

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a high level of predictability, not

always because it's very much macro

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economic driven a large degree.

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What are your thoughts about like,

how do we actually improve our

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performance in terms of delivery?

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Because that's usually what

the exec care about from us.

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Like, are you and your team going

to be able to do this on time?

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If time is a factor, time is

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Charity Majors: always a factor.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You know, I feel like

there are so many aspects.

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There is a higher level of

unpredictability and engineering

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than in sales full stop.

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Um, but that doesn't mean that we can't.

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That we can't get much better at

pointing at a place and saying, that's

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where we're going, getting updates

along the way about how we're going

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at getting there, and trying to

arrive there roughly on time, right?

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I think that like, anytime there's a big

shakeup in your org, whether it's a hiring

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growth spurt, or a leadership change, or

a re org or whatever, it takes time to

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like, you have to relearn all over again.

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Uh, but like, if we aren't focused

on that consistently, we aren't going

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to, we aren't going to like, Level up.

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Um, I think I think there are a lot

of really interesting that there

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are a lot of new startups out there

that are kind of focused on giving.

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Engineering leaders visibility into

their team without using that punitively

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and without using it necessarily.

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There's always a story behind it, right?

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Maybe this is what good tends to look

like in terms of like number of PRs, etc.

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But like there's always

going to be outliers.

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Some of them will be outliers because they

are outlier individuals who Excessively

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helping the team, you know, move faster.

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Sometimes they're outlet, but it's always

the starting point for a question, right?

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And I think that our fear of being tracked

of having our, I mean, it's, I always

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forget the name of the law, but the law

that once you're once you're tracking

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something, people will start to like adapt

their behavior to deliver that metric

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instead of, you know, is a real thing.

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And so I think you really have

to be careful with this data.

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You have to emphasize to people that yeah.

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You know, first, you're

not looking at one metric.

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If you look at one metric or two or

three, they're going to get game.

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But if you're looking at the

broad Basket of behaviors, right?

393

Things will start to, and if you're

using them as the starting point

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of the conversation, I think they

are, there's leading indicators

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and trailing indicators, right?

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And whether or not we hit our

deliverables on time, it's always

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going to be a trail indicator.

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So a big part of the battle is looking

for leading indicators that we can start

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to use to find these things before it's.

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Oh, shit.

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We said we were going to ship today

and it's been, you know, a month, two

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months, three months, but nobody knows it.

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You know, that's what degrades

trust, not missing by a week,

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not, you know, that sort of thing.

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Eric Brooke: Yeah.

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Concur.

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Okay.

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So, um,

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when we look going forward, we talked

a little bit about your career and

410

that you moved through a honeycomb

and you were the CEO for a while.

411

Now that you're the CTO, um, I guess like

when you think about it, what is success

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and how, what has helped you be Always

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Charity Majors: many

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people are different.

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And that's why I feel like It always

starts with self awareness, uh, and

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just trying to be conscious of who

you are, how, you know, your, your

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own, your own responses to things,

uh, your impact on other people.

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Uh, I have not had an easy few years,

and I feel like I've finally gotten

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to a good place, but like, I think a

certain amount of, uh, stubbornness

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and tenacity is also necessary.

421

Um, I, I feel like it's sort of

the nature, blessing, the curse of

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leadership positions that everybody

kind of thinks that they want to be one.

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You don't really know if you like

it or not until you've done it.

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Um, and after this, oh my God,

my dearest wish after this is to

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go be a staff engineer someplace.

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I just want to sit in the corner

and write code and have it be

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someone else's problem for a while.

428

But I feel very grateful for the time

that I get to be in the seat and do

429

this thing for as long as it lasts.

430

Eric Brooke: And so what were the things

that help you in that, around you?

431

Um, yeah.

432

Charity Majors: Uh, journaling, um,

writing, uh, I used to do Twitter

433

a lot and it was really helpful for

me in sort of working out external

434

messaging as well as working out

what I thought and felt about things.

435

Um, I don't do it as much anymore.

436

There's just too many places.

437

There's like, what, Macedon, Blue Sky,

and Twitter, and LinkedIn, and there's

438

just too many, and I can't keep track.

439

Um, but like, writing has helped me

sort of externalize what's inside

440

my head, and look at it from a

new angle, and get feedback on it,

441

and it's been invaluable to me.

442

Um, I do not really, a lot of the

standard advice like mentors and

443

classes just really don't work for me.

444

I have a lot of problems with authority,

and anybody who I, this is not anyone

445

else's problem, it's my problem, but

anyone who I perceive as trying to set

446

themselves above me, I automatically

lash out at, which is not, not great.

447

So, I consider everyone my peer,

whether they're an intern, or a student.

448

Or like fucking Elon Musk or

everyone's my peer, right?

449

That's just how I make

my way through the world.

450

And realizing that about myself

was a very healthy thing.

451

I don't mind if other people

think of me as a mentor.

452

That doesn't bother me at all.

453

They're still my peer to me, right?

454

So like I said, I think a lot of it is

just about understanding your internal.

455

Because when you're in IC, you have,

you have much more of the luxury of

456

not having to be on all the time.

457

It's okay.

458

Your mistake, the higher up you go, the

more Your internal struggles become,

459

it's so easy for them to be externalized

and become other people's problems.

460

And if there's one thing that I

really can't abide, it's people in

461

positions of leadership who make their

problems everyone else's problems.

462

It's so irresponsible.

463

It's not okay.

464

People do it all over the

place and it's hard not to.

465

So I feel like, you know, the

thing about you need to apply

466

your own oxygen mask before you

can use it on others is so real.

467

Eric Brooke: I really love that analogy.

468

That's a really good one.

469

Um, is there a problem that

you're looking into and trying

470

to figure out at this time?

471

Charity Majors: Yeah, um,

I have just, uh, taken over

472

responsibility for our AI strategy.

473

This is probably the most boring and

predictable answer in the world, but,

474

um, I am excited about it because,

you know, I, I, I'm excited because

475

I think part of what brings companies

to Honeycomb as customers is our

476

reputation for engineering excellence.

477

You know, I think we've, we've really

tried hard throughout our entire history

478

to share what we've learned about what

makes for high performing teams, what

479

makes for predictable, consistent software

delivery, what makes for happy team.

480

Um, it's what's made it easy for us to

recruit, even when, you know, in the days

481

when everyone's, you know, fighting for

engineers, and it's, and it's brought

482

a lot of customers to us because they

trust what we say about the future.

483

And up until now we really haven't said

much about AI and I think that's starting,

484

starting, it's about to start to hurt us.

485

And it's time for us to start

talking about where we think the

486

future of AI fits into the world

and how people should be preparing

487

for it, how they should be hiring

for it, how they should be building.

488

So over the next few months.

489

Um, we are not only starting to build

some things internally that use AI that

490

I'm really excited about that I can't

really talk about, but also we're planning

491

to put out a drumbeat of material.

492

It's just engineers talking to

engineers about how to apply.

493

Good software engineering

principles to non deterministic

494

systems, which is something that

nobody's really figured out.

495

You know, there's all of

this hot air and thought.

496

I hate that term thought leadership.

497

It gives me hives, but all these

people just like thinking out loud

498

all over the place about how great

or how bad everything's going to be.

499

And I'm so irritated with that.

500

I just want to hear engineers talking

day in the life of the engineer.

501

How, how am I using this for good?

502

How's it screwing with me?

503

How can we make some progress here?

504

Uh, and my hope is that we can earn

some credibility with folks who are

505

using LLMs and building models in

the way that we already have people

506

who are just built writing code.

507

Eric Brooke: Yeah, it's

a fascinating space.

508

It feels like an industrial revolution

and like, realistically, every

509

CTO is going to have AI as part

of their journey going forward.

510

It's some

511

Charity Majors: combination of industrial

revolution and giant fucking bubble

512

and nobody really knows what the

percentage is yet in some sense It's

513

very clearly like a trillion dollar

solution looking for a trillion dollar

514

problem, which we haven't found yet We

found a lot and that my friend can't

515

quirk who works at honeycomb it I should

attribute that but I would say that

516

it Stuck with you like that's so true.

517

Lots of little like ten million

dollar problem Maybe a million

518

dollar problems, you know Well, you

know, I probably, no, not so much.

519

So how much of it, how much of

each is it going to be like TBD?

520

Eric Brooke: Yeah.

521

Yeah.

522

Concur.

523

Um, I also want to point out that I

found, um, I'm going to be careful

524

of the word because I don't want

to give you hives, but like some

525

of your articles and blog posts are

excellently written and have definitely

526

helped me think farther and wider.

527

So I definitely recommend

our viewers check out your

528

blog because it's very good.

529

Okay, moving on.

530

Um, what's it like?

531

You talked a little bit earlier

about working in the exec and it's a

532

lot about, you know, as a business,

we're like the one team and our

533

job is to kind of align on that.

534

What are the things in hindsight

you would say that could prepare

535

someone for their first exec role?

536

Charity Majors: Oh, that's

a really good point.

537

I think that for engineers in particular,

you need to understand how this works.

538

You need to be curious about the business.

539

You need to, you know, I think we get so

deep into tech for the sake of tech and

540

even tech, tech's affecting the business,

but just like, like when I started

541

Honeycomb, I did not know the difference

between sales and marketing, much less

542

demand gen versus product marketing.

543

You know, I didn't, I had never

heard the term product market fit.

544

I didn't know that categories existed, you

know, and I was phenomenally ill prepared

545

and it was very hard to recover from.

546

And I think that You know, if, if you

want to lead engineering or you really

547

need to learn about how, um, and most

engineers don't, uh, and, and there's a,

548

there's this kind of ingrained snobbery

that a lot of us have, you know, Silicon

549

Valley is infamous for thinking that

engineers can do everyone else's job.

550

You know, and while I would, I would

still hold, I think an engineering

551

background prepares you for that.

552

Incredibly well for a range of

careers, only a few of which

553

involve writing code all day.

554

It teaches you how to think and

debug and it gives you this really,

555

you know, and having a technical

orientation where you can trust

556

your own judgment to some extent.

557

It's just like it's

currency in this world.

558

Uh, but you have to care as much

about the business as you do about

559

technology in order to be pretty exact.

560

Another thing I would say is that,

you know, a thing that I think that In

561

order to co own, you know, each other's

decisions, I, there was a, there was

562

a moment when Honeycomb, I think, kind

of crested a thing that we had been,

563

where we had been messing up for a

long time without realizing, where we

564

were just like nodding, going, yeah,

that sounds reasonable, and moving on.

565

And when we started going, no way.

566

What exactly do you mean by that?

567

Wait, are we using the word

enterprise to mean the same thing?

568

You know, just like digging in to

make sure that what's in our head?

569

Because otherwise you're

going to be surprised, right?

570

And, and being able to like early

detect those areas of misalignment.

571

My friend, Emily Nakashima, who's

our VP of engineering, wrote two of

572

the best blog posts I've ever read

on becoming a VP of engineering.

573

And she talked about how creating

alignment It's a buzzy, buzzwordy

574

sounding thing, but it's like

so much of what the job is.

575

Just making sure what is in people's

heads is not just the same words,

576

but the same concepts, the same

ideas, the same priorities, the

577

same, you know, learning to get you

that spidey sense when something is

578

not on the same page, you know, and

how to resolve it is so critical.

579

Eric Brooke: I remember when traveling

my first journey with domain driven

580

design, and one of the things it

talks about is ubiquitous language.

581

I'm using the same words

across the organization.

582

And I remember asking each of the exec

at that time, what is revenue to you?

583

And every answer was different.

584

And that really highlighted to me like,

Oh, how much conflict and extra things

585

do we create because we're using words?

586

Charity Majors: Yes.

587

Eric Brooke: Yes.

588

Okay, cool.

589

What does an interaction with a board

look like from your perspective?

590

Like, what, could you demystify that

a little bit for people that don't

591

Charity Majors: know?

592

This is something that is near

and dear to my heart, and it's

593

something that I think that a lot

of mythologizing goes on around.

594

So Honeycomb, we've actually done

something, I think we're the first

595

company in America to do this.

596

We have an employee, a voting employee

board member on our board of directors.

597

We've had this in place for three

years, and part of their role is to

598

attend all the board meetings, even the

closed sessions, and then they present

599

the board deck that we present to the

board back to the company in the next,

600

all hands, and they talk about what

they saw, what they heard, and I think

601

a lot of people expected this, this

position to be one of like employee

602

advocacy, or, or that there would be

like a Opportunities for the employee

603

board member to speak or something.

604

People don't realize that that's not

what boards talk about or care about.

605

Um, they talk about numbers, sales

numbers, sales efficiency, you

606

know, how much, what's your zero

cash date, marketing numbers.

607

You know, they do a certain amount

of debugging, like slightly closer,

608

but like it's all, I don't even

talk in board members, in board

609

meetings, hardly ever, right?

610

It's really head of sales, the

head of marketing, COO, CEO.

611

And they're talking, they're talking

about things that are not what

612

employees care about for the most part.

613

You know, things like,

you know, how's my rap?

614

I mean, I'm overstating a tiny

bit, but like the kinds of things

615

that like, I think employees

think boards will talk about.

616

So, honestly, like, I've been doing

a little bit of a tour to be like,

617

what has been the impact of this

experiment and everyone, a lot of

618

folks have said, you know, what I

think I've learned from this is that

619

I don't care about this information.

620

It's not, I would be okay if this

experiment went away because I found out

621

that it's really boring and I don't want

to think about all this stuff, but I tune

622

out during the updates and I'm like, okay.

623

Thank you for your honesty.

624

I do think that like there's a, there's

a subset of folks, primarily people

625

who are aspiring to upper management

for whom it is really interesting.

626

There's a lot of details that are

honestly pretty dull if you, if you

627

aren't like thinking about that or

caring about all the time and it

628

can be very anxiety producing too.

629

So it's, it's, I used to operate

from the principle that, you know,

630

full transparency on everything.

631

That's what builds trust.

632

And.

633

In theory, I still agree, but I also

have come to respect that it's so easy

634

to just drown people in details that

it makes it hard for the things that

635

really matter to just stand out and

land as hard as they need to with them.

636

So I'm still kind of trying to figure

out how to thread that, you know, to give

637

people enough information that like, I

fully 100 percent believes that like,

638

if you're an employee, you have a right

to understand how the company is doing.

639

When are we going to run out of money?

640

What's our strategy?

641

How are we, you know, but I also.

642

I've come to respect that not

everyone wants to know all that stuff.

643

And so, yeah, I don't know.

644

It's an interesting, it's interesting.

645

It's an interesting sort

of like needle to thread.

646

Eric Brooke: Yeah.

647

Thank you for sharing that.

648

Um, in

649

Charity Majors: I mean, obviously

everybody is like AI, AI, AI, and I'm

650

already getting so cynical about it

because it's like just because you

651

put AI that doesn't make it better.

652

Honestly, I think I can say with some

confidence, if you can compute the

653

answer, you should compute the answer.

654

Because if you can computer it, it's

going to be a better, faster, cheaper,

655

and more reliable answer than anything.

656

An AI answer is a guess.

657

You know, and guesses aren't better.

658

There are some problems for which this

is like the only answer or an easier or

659

faster answer, but like for, you know,

it's so frustrating to me right now.

660

Cause I'm looking at the

observability industry and people

661

are just like, dashboards with AI.

662

And it's like, yeah, but that's

because you didn't collect the context.

663

You can't calculate the answer.

664

So you're guessing the answer.

665

That's not.

666

A plus, that's not a good thing, you

know, and I think that, you know, so

667

much money is chasing all of the AI

promises right now that it's inevitable,

668

but I think there's already a well

earned, well, a sink of cynicism

669

that's sinking in across the industry

and I am pretty irritated with it.

670

Is there

671

Eric Brooke: anything outside of AI

that you're seeing at the moment?

672

I mean, yeah.

673

I

674

Charity Majors: mean, I think

it's a really interesting time.

675

You know,

676

there were a few years there

where, you know, there was such

677

hot competition for talent.

678

It turns out everyone was overhiring.

679

You know, and, and now I think that

I think that I think the move towards

680

efficiency is a good thing for like it's

a little bit pain growth is fun, right?

681

It's fun.

682

It's hot, you know, but like, it's

not always healthy and growth for the

683

sake of growth is not a good thing.

684

And I think that all it's

learning to talk about are.

685

Our work and the language of the

business and actually justify it in

686

terms of real needs that we're really

solving in a competitive way is really,

687

really good thing for all of us.

688

I feel like, you know, engineers

are the engine of modern

689

businesses, the innovation engine.

690

You know, we push, we push markets

forward, we push technology forward,

691

we push, we push companies forward.

692

And.

693

We're too expensive to be, to just be

put in the corner or in a closet and

694

given tasks, given tickets, right?

695

Smart companies are inviting and

encouraging you to come above the

696

value line so that our creativity and

our problem solving is being used to

697

address, you know, at the very, at the

very top level, what are we building?

698

Why are we building it?

699

Who are we building it for?

700

Um, and so.

701

You know, I feel like engineers who feel

like they're being taken for granted and

702

treated like, you know, little monkeys,

take a ticket, find, find new jobs.

703

They exist.

704

Eric Brooke: Thanks, Charity.

705

Um, in terms of like your entire career,

we talked a little bit about what's helped

706

you grow and what's helped you scale.

707

And you've talked about the

writing and how important it is.

708

Um, it's, and I definitely appreciate,

as I mentioned, your blogs.

709

Um, it's kind of like having an

RFC out in the wild and it's like,

710

oh, wow, look at this thinking.

711

It's kind of interesting.

712

Are there other things that you?

713

like have helped you along the journey.

714

Um, and I know we've kind of like

covered some of them, but I just

715

want to give you a bit of space in

terms of What's helped you scale?

716

Charity Majors: Therapy.

717

Eric Brooke: Very good answer.

718

Charity Majors: I think therapy is, if

you are in charge of other people, I think

719

therapy is an investment in yourself that

everyone, everyone should do, you know.

720

I've tried a lot of things.

721

I've tried, you know, having coaches.

722

I've tried, I read a lot,

some might say compulsively.

723

I, I think I find a lot of value in

reading about things that are not about

724

technology, like books about ethics and

religion and just sort of like practices.

725

I think there's a lot of wisdom there that

is not just of the moment, life hacks,

726

you know, but is a little bit deeper.

727

And I think that as some of us,

you know, I really love what Will

728

Larson says about how we have,

each of us has a 40 year career.

729

I think it really changes how,

we can be so like, like little

730

mice, you know, just darting from

moment to moment, year to year.

731

But like you have a 40 year career.

732

How do you think about

the arc of that time?

733

And whereas the first 10

years, I think for everyone is.

734

learning and soaking up and

just like upskilling like crazy.

735

Like after that, I think that

once you get some power, what

736

are you going to do with it?

737

You know, what is the legacy

that you want to leave?

738

Like you want to have

an impact on the people.

739

I was just talking to this guy, I won't

name him, but like he's an exec and he

740

was talking about the place that he works

and how he got kind of disillusioned

741

with some other They're living up

to their own values, but instead of

742

just quitting, he was like, well, I'm

already kind of mentally out the door.

743

Why don't I see what happens if I

stick around for a few months and

744

just try to hold people accountable

on the board, my peers, you know, the

745

rest, the rest of the execs, the other

folks, just what happens if I try to

746

hold up a mirror and go, is this how

you, and I was just, I got chills.

747

I was like, what is the point of power?

748

If you just perpetuate.

749

whatever got you here, right?

750

Can't we do better for each other?

751

And I think zooming out and looking at

the arc of history and looking at, you

752

know, people who have been thinking about

ethics and morality and the good life,

753

you know, for longer than technology

has been around can be really grounding.

754

for sharing

755

Eric Brooke: that.

756

Last question.

757

What do you do for fun, Charity?

758

Charity Majors: You know, during

the pandemic, uh, actually just

759

a year, year and a half ago, I

got cats and This is so cliche.

760

I grew up on a farm where we had

lots of animals, but we ended up

761

eating most of them eventually, so we

never really like bonded with them.

762

Uh, but having cats that like to snuggle

with me, I've always struggled with sleep

763

schedules and like a regular, you know,

and it has been, it has been wonderful.

764

I look forward every evening

to laying down with those cats.

765

fuzzy little fuckers and just

like petting them and falling

766

asleep and it's in this charity.

767

Eric Brooke: It's been awesome having you

and describing your journey and some of

768

the wisdom that you've learned from it

and your openness about your experiences.

769

I really appreciate it.

770

Thank you.

771

Thanks

772

Charity Majors: for having me.

773

It's been a great, great fun for me to

774

Eric Brooke: calling all

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775

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