Ep25 Breaking into the Federal Defense Sector with Emerging Technology
Welcome to today’s episode, where we discuss emerging technologies in the federal defense space – and how those coming from the commercial world can break into this exciting space.In this episode you’ll hear from Natalie Barrett and Jazmin Furtado. Natalie is currently assigned to the Warfighter Health and Readiness Program at Johns Hopkins’ Applied Physics Laboratory. Jazmin is part of the software innovation realm for the Department of Defense where she has overseen large-scale Data and AI programs in the Air Force and Space Force.They discuss:
- The tech problems that are top of mind in the federal defense sector.
- How innovative tech is being injected into the defense space.
- The role that commercial plays in the defense space – how commercial companies can break into this space (and how individual can too)
Transcript
Welcome to the PAIR program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of hatchpad, and I'm your other
Mike Gruen:host, Mike Gruin.
Tim Winkler:Join us each, each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth.
Thomas Horlacher:The views expressed within this podcast are solely the speakers and do not reflect the opinions
Tim Winkler:and beliefs of any organization or company. So what's up everyone? We are back for another episode of the Pair Program. Uh, I am your host, Tim Winkler Company by my co-host Mike Gruen. Mike, you are a space fan, right? Yes. Uh, did you watch the, the launch yesterday, the SpaceX, uh, Starship Launch? No, I did not. Oh, so not a big space fan? Not,
Mike Gruen:not as huge as Space fan as I once was when I was younger.
Tim Winkler:Okay. Jasmine, I'd imagine you, you, uh, tuned in.
Jazmin Furtado:Yeah, I was gonna say maybe it was a good thing that you
undefined:didn't
Tim Winkler:watch. Yeah. It, so it was a rollercoaster ride. I'm not gonna lie. My wife and I watched it and, you know, we were just so thrilled to see it get off the platform and, and then I think everybody's reactions were fairly similar of like, oh, is it supposed to be doing back flip, like multiple back flips and then just a huge explosion. And I was like, oh my gosh. That was, it was like, uh, it was terrifying. I, I was happy and then sad and concerned. I don't know. It. I, yeah, there's,
Jazmin Furtado:there's only one or zero, you know, there's only two endings.
Tim Winkler:Right. But there was nobody on on board that Correct. Was that just a test launch? Correct.
Jazmin Furtado:There was no one on board. Okay.
Thomas Horlacher:That was, there was a
Natalie Barrett:lot of failing fast, though. Fast, fast failings important, you know, in innovation. So,
Thomas Horlacher:and, and expensive filling ground. Spectacular. That's
Tim Winkler:right. Yeah, it was, it was pretty entertaining. It, obviously, it sounds like a, a huge, a huge win in terms of, you know, that many engines and launching without having the, the failure to begin with. But, uh, still some work to be done. Um, Well, cool. Well, let's, let's give the listeners a heads up on today's episode. So, you know, we are trying to create, uh, more awareness for how advanced technology is being injected into the public sector, so specifically defense and, and federal civilian agencies. Um, and we wanted to, you know, we wanna approach this from a few different angles. So, for example, you know, you might be a technologist, like a, a software engineer or a, a product manager who's worked your entire career in the commercial space. Uh, or, or maybe for a commercial startup, and you're looking to transition, you know, your career into the public sector, maybe supporting a, a large government contract or a defense project, or you, you could be a founder, uh, of a, of a small startup who's maybe building your product and delivering your, or, or your service to commercial customers. But now you wanna diversify your, your customer base, maybe break into the federal or, or, or defense market. So we wanted to compile a co, like a short mini series of these episodes on the podcast to help bridge this gap. Uh, and so we're kicking it off with today's episode, which we are labeling, um, how Emerging Technologies Augment the Fence Innovation Initiatives. Uh, so that's a, it's a mouthful. Uh, it's a, it, it might sound a little bit confusing. And so in lieu of emerging technologies, I went ahead and plugged this into chat, G P T and just asked it to break this down for me as if I were a five year old. And here's what. Came back. So emerging technologies are new things that people are inventing or discovering. Some of these new things can help the military make better weapons and protect the country better. Defense innovation initiatives means that the military is trying to come up with new ideas to be better at their jobs and protect people. They want to use these new technologies to help them do that. So how emerging technologies augment defense innovation initiatives means that new things that people are inventing can help the military come up with. Better ideas and tools to protect the country. So I'd like to thank Chad g p t for channeling that inner child for us, and, uh, helping us adults have to not think quite as hard. Um, but, uh, to help us really break this down, we, we have a couple of really great guests to help us, uh, tackle the topic, both of which have spent years innovating in the defense industry. Uh, Jasmine Furtado, uh, is a technical program manager for data and AI within the United States Space Force. And Natalie Barrett, a program area manager at Johns Hopkins University, applied Physics Laboratory. Thank you both for spending some time with us today on the PAIR program. Thanks for having us. Of course, of course. All right. Now, uh, before we dive in, uh, we'd like to kick things off of the fun segment that we call, pair me up. Pair, pair me up. So here's where we all go around the room. We'll shout out a complimentary pairing. Mike, you always kick us off. So what, what do you got for us today? Yeah. So, uh,
Mike Gruen:today, uh, it goes back to the, over the weekend. Um, I've been trying to just sort of eat less. Um, this came up before we started recording, uh, my doctor yelling at me. Um, so one of the things I I, over the weekend that I noticed was when I'm doing yard work, I can go hours without eating, uh, which is somewhat good. So I went out. So, so my pairing is yard work and not eating. Um, I just, when I'm just out there doing whatever, I don't wanna even notice that I'm hungry as opposed to like, when I'm sitting at my computer doing my, like, actual job, like I feel it all the time. It's like, and there's some psychological stuff going on there, but that's my, that's my parent.
Tim Winkler:I feel like I'm opposite, actually. I feel like if I'm working out in the yard, I, I just get starving. Um,
Mike Gruen:I mean, I come in starving, but I don't notice it while I'm out there. I can just be, I, whatever it is, whether I'm.
Tim Winkler:You don't have access to snacks prior in the yard. Gotcha. No. Unless, yeah.
Mike Gruen:I mean, unless I start eating the bamboo like a panda. Cuz that's, that's usually what I'm fighting with. Uh, we have a
Tim Winkler:lot of, lot of Oh, you've got bamboo? Yeah. Got bamboo issue. Yeah. It's terrible.
Mike Gruen:Oh, that's brutal. Tell
Thomas Horlacher:me,
Jazmin Furtado:make a garden.
Tim Winkler:What's
Jazmin Furtado:that, Jasmine? You need to make a garden. You gotta grow a garden up.
Mike Gruen:Now I just need to slash and burn it and move or something. I don't know.
Tim Winkler:It's, or if you just grow, if you just grow vegetables, you know, then you can kind of two birds, one stone. You can eat healthy while you're out there doing your yard work. Yes. There you go. All right, we'll, we'll accept that answer. I appreciate it. Alright, so my, my pairing, um, my pairing today is going to be babies and Mohawks. Um, so as I've mentioned before on, on previous episodes now, my wife and I, we welcomed our daughter Alice into the world, uh, four months ago now. And, you know, whenever we do bath time, you know, papa gets to play stylist and I get to draw her hair in different, uh, styles that I like. So I wanted to experiment, uh, with a little Mohawk, uh, on her. And I'll share, lemme see if I can share this picture. You guys see that pretty good? Right. So I will just say that having a baby with a mohawk and walking around with her, um, it gets a ton of praise. People. People like it, it's well received by the people. Um, and it's, uh, I think it's just a people pleaser. So she's got a lot of compliments and just seems to bring out an element of her little personality. So I just say for any listeners out there that have babies, give it, give this a shot after bath night. Just wait and see what kind of reactions you receive. Um, I don't think you'll be disappointed. Um, alright, let's pass it off to our guest now. So let's start with, uh, with Natalie. Uh, if you wanna give us just a quick intro and then your pairing.
Natalie Barrett:Sure. Nat Barrett. Uh, I'm a technologist with a background in electrical and biomedical engineering. I've had the privilege of serving Department of Defense for a very long time now, and, uh, probably my favorite programs are related to exoskeletons and brain computer interfaces to really advance and protect our war fighters. Um, so my pairing is yoga and solitude. As a mom of two, it is one of the only times that I get solitude and the opportunity to really be creative and to let the ideas percolate, um, of what's next.
Tim Winkler:That's great. As far as yoga goes, what's like, um, do you have like a, a position that's like your, your go-to that you enjoy the most?
Natalie Barrett:So, that's a great question. My top is down dog, but my, but probably my favorite is called Savasana. Where you lay still for minutes. And so it's actually a place where you, it's almost like meditation. Um, and you can, you can really be calm and the ideas just flow.
Tim Winkler:It sounds like na, like nap time almost. It's
Thomas Horlacher:a nap time. Don't,
Tim Winkler:don't. That's great. Um, I love it. I love it. And also love the, the work that you do. That sounds super fascinating. Can't wait to dive into that more. Um, but let's pass it over to Jasmine. How about, uh, your intro and, uh, and your pairing?
Jazmin Furtado:Yeah. Well, thanks for having us here. Again. I'm Jasmine Furtado. I have worked a few data and AI initiatives in the Department of Defense, specifically in the Air Force and the Space Force. So, um, my pair today is, Dogs and sun patches. I just think of, it's just something in my head. My dog does that a lot actually, like finding sun patches on the floor. Oh yeah. And they just like, they're just naturally drawn to it and they just kinda just sit there, just lay there. They don't know anything about what sun, you know, dangerous sunlight. They just perform and they'll just stay there. And then as the patch moves, they'll also like move with it. So that's
Tim Winkler:very, very good. That's awesome. That's a great pairing. That is a great pair. I mean, so this is one of my former dogs. He, he's no longer with us, but he was an awesome dog. His name was Griffin. And, um, he would love a good sun spott. I'd always like go out on my back deck and see 'em, just post it up. Um, it's, it's exactly right though. It's like dogs are just drawn to a good sun spott. It's like they know what, what's, what's comfort. It's good stuff. That is good stuff. Awesome. All right. Well, good round. Yeah. Um, let's, although we should have, have no
Mike Gruen:whiskey, I think it's probably the first time in a while that we haven't had any food or, or beverage or
Tim Winkler:anything. That's true. Well, I'm actually drinking a, uh, a cocktail right now. Good for you. So, um, yeah, thanks. Um, all right, well let's, uh, let's go ahead and transition into the episode. So, um, as I mentioned, we're gonna be talking about innovating in the D O D, which is Department of Defense, uh, and other defense related agencies like darpa, which is the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. And I'm gonna preface for our listeners, the majority of which are a lot of commercial focused technologists that your intro, uh, to government 1 0 1 lesson is, is that the government loves their acronyms. So you'll hear. A lot of acronyms, uh, throughout this episode. Um, but, uh, we'll be very mindful of this. Make sure that we, um, spell out what these are short for and, um, you know, we're only gonna begin to scratch the surface on this episode. Um, but our goal at a high level is to cover a few things. One, We wanna paint this picture of the types of problems that, like the defense is trying to solve, and in what types of technologies that are being used to, to solve these. Um, two, you know, we wanna discuss the importance of, of adding competition in this space, right? So, you know, making sure like, Commercial is brought in, uh, to innovate is a big piece of this conversation. Uh, not just keeping it only, you know, companies that are, you know, already tied into the defense space. Um, and then lastly, explain some of these different ways that you can collaborate and partner in this space. So, if you are a technologist that's looking to get into the, into the industry, how you might explore an opportunity as a career, or if you're a founder of a startup, how you might tap into, uh, the space from a sales perspective, uh, opening up a, creating a sales channel in these industries. So, let's jump in. Uh, there's a lot to talk about. Um, Jasmine, I, I kinda wanna start with you. Um, what are some of these kind of large scale problems in tech maybe that you've experienced in, in your career within defense or, uh, that are kind of top of mind? Uh, in, in today's market?
Jazmin Furtado:Yeah. So to start off, just like with painting that picture, the Department of Defense has a lot of data. So my background has always been on the data side of the house, software side of the house, um, and analytics, artificial intelligence. So use that all as just context. So there, with the amount of data and the amount of systems that we have in the Department of Defense that's collecting data, it's a very complex environment. It's very complicated. There are so many things that are collecting information and there's so many people that are doing things without information. So you can imagine there's like jumbled mess of of data, data pipelines and you have so many people that can derive value from this information, but it's hard sometimes to. Pull out what's relevant. And it's hard to navigate this such a big ecosystem. So this area is really ripe for innovation. How do we bring more order to the, some of the chaos? And it's not a one size fits all solution. Every unit in the DOD is different. They have different skill sets, they have different, uh, different missions. They have different technology stacks. So there's a lot of different ways to tackle this problem. And the, the challenges that we see when it comes to like data innovation, uh, we see a lot of innovative. Efforts popping up as a result of that. So we'll see, uh, a lot of innovation hubs that, like, for lack of better term, I'm gonna quote unquote that cause some, some groups don't like to be considered innovation hubs and some do, so I'm just gonna use a blanket term, um, which is a little bit dangerous in this, in this regard. But there are these like groups that have sprung up in the last few years that are focused on quote unquote innovation. And so they are leaning forward in partnering with non-traditional companies. They are leaning forward in practicing more, you know, iterative agile practices. Uh, they're more interested in, you know, adopting more emerging technologies. And so they position themselves in areas that have a lot of data. They position themselves in areas in, in. Get, um, the appropriate infrastructure to be able to do agile fast software development. So in these areas, there's, there's, I can't even list all the different mission areas, um, cuz there's just so many. But you think, from my perspective, air Force Space Force, we see a lot of, uh, tracking, personnel management, um, optimization of processes, um, trying to identify events of interest. Um, there's a, like any. Application that you could think of outside the military has the equivalent in the Department of Defense. So that's just to like set the stage a little bit. Sure. There's a lot of opportunity here.
Tim Winkler:Yeah. I mean, that's a loaded question. I mean, there's just so much that, uh, can still be done. Right. Uh, needs to be done. Um, but, uh, I think that's a good starting point. Nat, what about yourself? Uh, if you wanna maybe piggyback on, on the question and talk a little bit about, um, I, you worked at with DARPA for some time and, and then obviously at Johns Hopkins, a p l, you know, maybe setting the stage for, you know, some of those. Pro problems that you all have been tackling as well?
Natalie Barrett:That's a great question. One of the things I would really point anyone who's interested in getting into the d o d space is to take a look at the National security strategy, the national intelligence strategy, the space strategy. There's a lot of content that's available and, um, publicly available for the, you know, civilian sector to, to consume. One of the things I wanted to, to add to what Jasmine said is that the Department of Defense, in addition to these innovation hubs, has really worked to make contracting easier. Uh, for emerging companies, startups. So they've made other transaction authority, uh, a priority, not just at socom, but now d d wide. In addition, they've started what's called the crada. I'm sure they're doing that over on the space side too, which is really an unfunded, um, cooperative research and development agreement that allows companies who have great ideas to work alongside a DOD partner to really get free input and free coaching as to where to go, what the need is, and how to be successful.
Tim Winkler:Real quick for, for folks that maybe aren't familiar, like socom, what, what is that an acronym for?
Natalie Barrett:Oh yeah, thank you. So Special Operations Command. I'm a little bit biased. I kind of see them as the tip of the spear. Um, they do everything that the D O D does, but faster, smaller, uh, lower profile, which just means, uh, not as spectacular as the launch that happened yesterday, right? So they keep their things very low profile things happen, uh, very targeted. And so a lot of times what they're trying to achieve is sort of accomplishing something in the most challenging environment, uh, in the most expeditionary way. And so if, if you have an idea, you know, looking to SOCOM is a great place to start. Cuz if you can solve something for socom, most likely it will help the entire force of
Thomas Horlacher:Department of Defense. Hmm.
Tim Winkler:And so I'm, I'm learning a lot about this space. So, you know, I'm from the, the DC area and, and our business, we kind of started off, you know, not so much working with some of these more modern like defense tech customers, but, uh, you know, more of, you know, a lot of web software that's going on and, and, and, and the federal space. But, you know, over the last few years, you know, it seems like there's been a, a real big push for, you know, modernizing a lot of defense tech. Um, and so, you know, we've been kind of tuned into a lot of these, you know, kinda like research agencies. Like DARPA's is one that continues to kind of pop up on our radar. And, um, for those that maybe aren't familiar, can you, can you highlight or explain like what, what the mission is behind some of these, like, research agencies like DARPA and Detra?
Natalie Barrett:Yeah, so DARPA Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, their goal is to basically change the course of history when it comes to Department of Defense. Um, they were founded because of what happened in, in with Sputnik. Uh, the Russians sort of, uh, taken Archis first and we said, that will never happen again. We will create darpa. Um, so I know Al Gore said he created the internet. Um, you know, truth be told, darpa, it was called ARPA net, uh, was the creation of the internet. You know, one thing just to highlight. The COVID Rapid test. I had the opportunity of working on a program called the, um, his program at the time. Um, about 20 years ago, we developed this capability and it has become the Covid Rapid Test. And so that was through darpa. It was to be an expeditionary medical testing device for our, our operators in the field. And so one thing to highlight everything at darpa, the intent is to first benefit D o D, but they definitely, under Stephanie Tompkins see the need to ensure that entrepreneurs are part of that ecosystem, if not the critical piece, to the point that she's actually created what's called the e e i. So if you search up e ei at darpa, you'll find the Embedded Entrepreneurship Initiative, which is an effort so that if you. A program or you develop a technology under a DARPA program and it's successful, she will give you potentially $250,000 to make short transitions into an actual product that you could market.
Thomas Horlacher:When
Tim Winkler:you Yeah, go ahead. Go. I was gonna say, it's, that's a, um, a very good example of, you know, somebody who's trying to, to get their foot in the door. You know, I almost equate it to like, pree funded startup, right? It's, it's like these smaller kind of grants and, and, uh, initiatives that are designed to help fuel that. Innovation for those folks that are just trying to get something off the ground or, or, you know, break ba break into a space where you can kind of use, you know, this customer base to test something out. Uh, I think it's a really, uh, fantastic, uh, you know, marriage of, of trying to inject commercial innovation into, you know, these larger regulated spaces that maybe are a lot more challenging to navigate. So I love, I love that initiative. Uh, I think it's really, really great. Sorry, I, I cut you off. Uh, no,
Natalie Barrett:that's okay. And you know, she's, the DAR has even gone to the point of creating consortiums of cyber companies and, uh, effort called, uh, I wanna call, it's the say it's the, uh, collaboration effort. But I think it's actually called Constellation. And in this constellation they have selected a set number of cyber companies that come together and work together constantly over time to develop advanced cyber tools for cyber command. Uh, another, another very unique, um, capability that DARPA's working on. And so I would say DARPA is really opening their scope of what they call innovation. Um, and you know, if you have an idea, they always have what's called an open broad agency announcement. So you can put any idea in there at any time. It doesn't have to, you know, be solicited. Mm-hmm.
Tim Winkler:It's fascinating. Um, it's, it kind of, uh, leads me down the path in Jasmine. You were kind of a. Touching on this as well, when you were explaining a little bit more of, of how folks might gain access into, into this innovation. And you referenced these innovation hubs or these innovation labs, and you, um, have, you know, worked with, with a few in, in the past, uh, castle Run. Sounds like this was one of those environments. Um, can you talk a little bit ab about how these operate? Um, you know, we, you know, in the, in the commercial startup space, right? There's oftentimes these venture studios and, and I don't know if that's kind of parallel to this, uh, but if you can kind of explain a little bit more and dive a little bit deeper into how they operate and then, you know, how uh, someone might explore a partnership through one of these hubs or labs.
Jazmin Furtado:Yeah, so there are a lot of different types of flavors in the sense of innovation hubs. Um, keel is an actual unit, it's a, like a program. It's. Um, program office that has like a budget and they have a mission. And so they are doing organic software development to meet the needs of that mission. So they have, uh, peop like military members, civilians, that are building code to meet the needs of our war fighters. And there are other, um, innovation hubs that are, are, you know, working on different mission areas throughout the departments. There's also things that are more associated or tied to like research like space. Um, space camp, for example. They're tied with air, the Air Force research labs. And they are built, they're also a software development organization, but they're not, they're, they're, they're associated through a F R L. There's also these groups like Space Works AppWorks, that are really more focused on bringing small businesses, non-traditional businesses and technology, and fast tracking them, or finding ways to inject them into those types of units. Say, you know, like Keres innovation hubs or just other units that are a little bit more traditional and try to modernize them. So they're, depending on your product and depending on your, your business model, you, you can find multiple ways in to work with the Department of Defense. So I always look at these like areas like F Works, space works, the S B I R, the small business, um, in. Small business, innovative innovation research or innovative research. I dunno which of the two. And then the, um, s uh, s ttr, which is like the small business, like technology transition. Uh, oh gosh. The, the acronyms. I, this is why they
Mike Gruen:have acronyms. So you don't have to remember all the long names.
Natalie Barrett:I know.
Jazmin Furtado:And I was just like, I always like
Tim Winkler:forget them. It's like, yeah. Now what is it? The C Sieber, um, S B I R, uh, um,
Jazmin Furtado:small Business Innovation Research. I'm just looking. That's right. And then small Business Technology transfer. That's S B T T, I guess. So those are two ways that small businesses can, uh, get on contract with the Department of Defense to. Uh, build a technology that may be more emerging. Mm-hmm. And then go through multiple phases to eventually get to a mature enough state where you can more closely partner in a more operational way with a unit.
Tim Winkler:That's fascinating. So, yeah, I've, I've been, you know, trying to educate myself a bit more on this too, and talking to folks that are participating on these, um, S B I R kind of initiatives. Uh, and they, like you mentioned, they break them down into phases and each phase you're kind of given a small chunk of cash to hit a milestone. Is that right? So like, phase one, you've got four months to get this prototype kind of to a certain stage, and then once it's kind of improving at that point, it's almost like that another round of funding comes for phase two. Is that, is that how it works? I.
Jazmin Furtado:Yeah. And you don't have to necessarily start in phase one. You could start at any of these phases. It just depends on the maturity of your technology. Okay. Uh, but you basically apply based off the criteria for each of those phases. You apply for, uh, the, the contracts and if you can find a use case, uh, within the Department of Defense, which is generally pretty easy to find. Mm-hmm. Although the actual people is another story. Um, but like the, the concept of, oh, this could be valuable to the Department of Defense is usually something that can be found. Um, and then it's just a matter of finding the unit and the people to champion it within the Department of Defense. And that's like another hurdle. Hmm.
Tim Winkler:Yeah. And we'll, uh, include all, all this in our show notes because there's a lot of things that are getting thrown around here that are actually super valuable. I, I've, you know, just from doing my disco calls with both of you all, I, I took a ton of notes and went down the rabbit hole of, of research. So like, AF works, right? It's W e r x, is that, is that accurate? It's AF W e r X. And that'll take you down a whole nother path of, of areas of, of, you know, these innovation hubs. So, um, we'll include all that in the show notes. Um, before we transition to the next point, Mike, I was curious, uh, you know, you've been in, in tech in this area for some time. Did you ever, uh, you know, participate down, you know, the public sector path? Did you ever work for a government contractor or any, anything along those lines? Yeah, all of the above.
Mike Gruen:So, um, couple companies ago, well now, a few companies ago, uh, we were doing, uh, it was national language processing. Uh, and then, uh, there was a big, uh, INQ Tel investment in us, uh, that got us into the NSA and with, um, cia, nsa, fbi. Um, trying to track down, uh, using natural language processing to find bad guys, uh, potentially terrorists, um, both foreign and domestic. Um, so that was, you know, and that was a, I'm curious, uh, to our guests, like, um, is Intel somebody who worked with D o d or is that strictly Intel community? Na,
Natalie Barrett:I, or, you know, I would definitely encourage anyone to go work or to put in a business plan Intel. Um, you know, our IC and D or D are, are well connected and, and play and kind and so any, any technology that. Any technology trade show that you see that comes up that Inq Tell is hosting? I would go right, the same thing with Soft Week. I would go, yeah. Um, those are opportunities to, you know, like Jasmine said, it's hard to find the people go to the events where they actually present themselves and, and go chat with them. Another one is SOCOM has, uh, a TE event, which is their techno technical experimentation event. Another place where you can go and showcase your work and have actual operators or war fighters come and assess
Thomas Horlacher:them.
Mike Gruen:And yeah, back to your question too, I, there was another, I mean the Intel's been my means in, at three companies where they were the ones who sort of took, made the introduction. They saw what we were doing, what our technology was. Uh, there was a different company worked at, um, where we were looking for, um, inside risk, inside threat that actors those types of things. Um, and were able to, again, it was an intel, made some introductions into for us and, uh, also made an investment. Um, for those that don't know, maybe, um, one of you could, uh, sort of say what Intel is. Um, cuz I'll just butcher it cuz I only know from the, having received the funds. Um, or am I putting you on the spot? I, I
Tim Winkler:apologize. I'm. I can, I can, I mean, so they're a venture firm, right? Yeah. That is specific to funding, uh, companies and giving them a, a leg into, uh, you know, defense industries. They, they kind of fund companies that are impacting defense and, and defense agencies.
Mike Gruen:I, I
Thomas Horlacher:think mostly cia.
Natalie Barrett:Yeah. I would augment that. Right. Well, mostly Intel agencies, so they're also connected to another organization we haven't mentioned, which is I, APA Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Agency. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I often encourage folks to apply to both, uh, submit ideas to both of those broad agency announcements. Um, you know, the, the broader you submit your concepts or your business plans, the more likely you are to hear back. Mm-hmm. Um, and so take advantage of, of all of those. You know, we mentioned a couple of the works. There is an umbrella called Soft uh, defense Works. If you go to the Defense Works website, you can sign up to get access to all of the works and to get updates on when they might have demonstration events or other events where they talk about their capability. Are there opportunities? And, and so just a piece about that, the opportunities through Defense works are that they're often given funding by, uh, the Air Force or socom or some other entity to work with a startup. And through this OTA construct and these other transaction authorities, you can actually get a ceiling on your contract, which allows you to, uh, receive funding to that level. Mm-hmm. So anytime you have a contract or an ota, um, that definitely gives you an advantage. So, so definitely take the time, sign up for things like Defense Works. The other one is N D I A, another great place where you can actually meet people, um, and talk to them and make those human to human connections.
Tim Winkler:Good stuff. I want to jump to the next topic on this, um, uh, that we are gonna try to cover here. So this was, um, centered around the importance of creating competition in the space. So there's a, a term called vendor lock, um, uh, is something that's been referenced in the industry. Jasmine, can you maybe expand on this and why this is, is vital, especially for, you know, commercial technology and, and startups that are in the space?
Jazmin Furtado:Yeah. So to what I was mentioning before when we laying out the content, um, like the bigger background of the whole thing, I mean the DO D is huge, right? There are just so many use cases and there's, like I said, not one size fits all solution. Um, what we see in the software realm is an opportunity to have multiple solutions to a problem in a way that. Is a little bit easier than before, um, is you don't have as high barrier to entry to enter into the space if you were more hardware centric. So we're looking at software, we're really looking for, um, more, um, modularity when it comes to our solutions. It's easier to break a problem up in, in theory when you're dealing with software. So when we're looking for solutions and for the dod, it's really a ripe place to find things that are, um, that are easily interoperable with other technologies. Things that you can plug in and out because mm-hmm. What we've seen in the past is when we are dealing with really hardware centric solutions, we're, we're stuck with a solution. We can't, you know, Replace something very easily. If we find that something's not working well for us with software, we can do that. So we really need competition, these small businesses at the table to be able to compete because they add to that, um, our, that they add to the environment and they allow us to have the best solutions out there. Um, instead of just having to focus on like, you know, one vendor doing everything we can find the best of breed to make up our defense industrial base.
Tim Winkler:Yeah. Well said. Um, there was a, a, a subtopic on this when we were kind of brainstorming, uh, that was also kind of going down the path of zero trust security model, so also known as zero trust architecture. Um, can you explain what that is and, and why? That's why that's so important.
Jazmin Furtado:Yeah. So the concept of Zero Trust is that we create a, um, ecosystem of technologies and tools that can interop be interoperable with each other in a very secure way and easy way. It is to add to the simplicity of, um, the ecosystem. So if we have like a, if we have a ton, like a few big software systems, um, that we just, you know, dive into the system and that you can do a ton of stuff in this space, that's great. But if we try to break it up into pieces, it's hard to, uh, it's hard to deconstruct, it's hard to like, uh, Move, it's hard to move between different tools. What we want is the ability to log into our network in the, in the do o d log into a network and have access to all the tools available and have the authentication and security protocols in between each of these tools to easily navigate between each of them. And that makes up that zero trust model. So everything that's in the network is modular enough so that they can interact with every other, uh, system in the network in an easy, seamless way. So you don't need to log in 50 times to get access to your data and your data's not super siloed in, in like one location or another, and it's not difficult to access it. So the idea of Zero Trust is to create this ecosystem of easy access, easy interoperability in a secure way. Hmm.
Tim Winkler:So, yeah, that, that was super clear for me. Mike, I know that you and I had kind of riffed on that briefly before as well, but you know, just coming from the commercial startup space, I mean, this is something that's pretty also like common knowledge on your, uh, you know, in that, in that world. Uh, it's hard for me to say
Mike Gruen:common knowledge. I mean, my last company was a cybersecurity training company, so for me it feels very common knowledge. Sure. But we had, you know, uh, we had to do a lot of education about, uh, what, what zero trust means and how you, you know, this idea that like, you don't, it's a complex idea, I think, for people to, to get ahold of. Um, but we are seeing in the commercial space, there's lots of places. I think it's actually easier in some, like when you're at a startup, it's actually easier to start that way with this idea of like, A zero trust model where people are authenticating, but then you sort of, each system is responsible for its own security. There's not, you don't, and that's how you sort of build these things up. It's, it came up a lot in the pandemic when, like you went from, I think a good example for people who might get this is, um, when the pandemic hit and people started working from home, it started becoming a problem because now all these systems that were sort of theoretically secure because they're inside the company's network, now we're working from home. How do you give people access to those things? So it's really pushing a lot of the security to the edges. And so that it's not like this idea of like this sort of hardened outside perimeter, and once I'm inside, then I'm trusted and I don't have to authenticate again. It's really pushing it out so that all of the different systems are constantly challenging. It's, it's like this idea of like, we don't trust you, uh, and we're gonna constantly confirm that you are who you say you are. We're gonna constantly confirm that you have access to the things you have access to. But it's all done at the software side. It's not, it's not as, you know, as Jasmine saying, it's not we're gonna force you to log in all of the time. Um, there's gotta be a way to mm-hmm. To sort of authenticate once, but, um, pushing that all out and that's what allows people to work from home without a vpn. Um, and that's, you know, I think smaller companies, startups, um, so much is SaaS that it's actually, there's no difference between working in an office and working, uh, at home for a lot of places. We don't have, you know, we don't have a rack of servers in the, in the network closet anymore. Mm-hmm. Now we just have. Basically just networking gear, um, to provide internet to the office. Um, so that's sort of mm-hmm. Hopefully that helped a little
Tim Winkler:bit. Um, but yeah. Mm-hmm. Cool. Yeah. Um, Nat, I think we kind of skipped over this too, but I, I do wanna, um, quickly backtrack because, you know, you work at John's Hopkins Applied Physics Lab and an area that, you know, you know, this is a university, um, that, uh, you is another, uh, outlet that we see, you know, partnering to innovate in, in the, in the defense space. Can you maybe, uh, just kind of quickly paint how that happens through, through that kind of outlet? Um, and name drop A couple of the big ones that are out there that are, are impacting in the space.
Natalie Barrett:Sure, anytime that you can come across a university and team with them, um, it's always a great opportunity. Uh, Johns Hopkins applied physics lab. You know, you look at the work that we do with nasa, we're always working with many companies. Um, you also look at what we're doing in, in the innovation spaces. So, for example, um, one of the programs was an advanced prosthetics program, uh, with the brain computer interface work. And, and in that, that was a consortium of multiple companies and universities. So the benefit of working with the university is that they're very collaborative. Their intent is to be collaborative. Their invent, their intent is to really advance technology and not to compete in the way that you traditionally think. And so that's why people love to, to work with our national labs as well. That's another great opportunity. Sandia does that a lot. Um, Lincoln Labs, m i t Lincoln Labs is another great opportunity. They have many events that you can attend, um, that are open to the public. And so, you know, anytime that, that you see a university, like a jpl, an apl, um, Penn State is great at this as well.
Tim Winkler:Virginia Tech, I think too, does, do, they have,
Thomas Horlacher:Virginia Tech
Natalie Barrett:has an a R l and so they'll release, we'll all release, um, our own solicitations on occasion. And so to be aware that those solicitations can also come and that's an opportunity for you to work with sort of a bigger, more known entity in some cases where there's gonna be full trust. Um, you know, the, the labs have. Thousands, if not millions of NDAs. And, and that's because they are, they're extremely well trusted in the community to only advance technology. They're never, they know, they are known entities to protect your ip.
Thomas Horlacher:Hmm.
Tim Winkler:But it is an interesting thought of, um, you know, if you're just trying to get your foot in the door, right? Say you're an alumni of, of Virginia Tech, you know, this could be a great outlet for you to kind of like, you know, use that to your advantage and just, you know, help to get a conversation started or, or get connected with somebody who maybe is, is connected. Um, you know, as far as networking goes, I mean, it's, it's truly, it's just super important. Um, if you have no expertise or no, no reach, uh, into the space, you know, just kind of like leaning into something that gives you a common connection is something we always recommend. Um, so I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna, uh, kind of wrap with a couple of a, a question for each of you, and I'm gonna paint this kind of picture and, and we'll, you know, some of this might be a little bit of a repeat of some of the things we covered, but we'll, we'll see if we can summarize the answer briefly. So I'll, Natalie, I'm gonna start with you and let's pretend that, you know, you're kind of set up, uh, uh, at a booth, at a defense. Tech, career fair, and Mike and I approach you as candidates. Mike's a software engineer commercial space for years. I'm a product manager in the commercial space. And, and we both approach you and, and we say, you know, we're, we're brand new to the defense space. You know, we've, uh, maybe we've, maybe we've, uh, fallen victim to a layoff or something in the commercial side, and we wanna, we wanna break into the defense space. It seems like maybe there's, there's some stability here. Uh, we have no idea where to start in pursuing opportunities. You know, what would you recommend to us? And, and maybe how to navigate a, uh, you know, a career opportunity in, in, in that space. Um, again, bit loaded, uh, but, you know, what would you say to us, you know, to, to kind of just get the ideas flowing? Um, yeah,
Natalie Barrett:I would, I would encourage you to look at three organizations first, um, to go look at nsf. We haven't mentioned. The, the National Science Foundation, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency are the, are really two of the tops in addition to US Special Operations Command. All three have very broad, broad agency announcements and they want to hear your ideas. The nice thing about those three organizations is that, that they are all interconnected across D O D, the IC doe, um, and they actually share technologies across themselves. You know, certainly look at those bas. I would also say go to their events. They all host events. You know, the more time you can get face-to-face with people, again, I love N D I A because they ha they bring people to you. You just sign up and you go. But then whenever you can team with a university, it's a safe place to start. Especially if you can find a national lab or a university affiliated research center, which is what, like Maryland, Arles and apl, L H U A P L. These are organizations whose intent is really to advance innovation in a trusted way, um, to enable the best for the country. So that's what I would recommend. I also recommend keeping the conversation going with folks like myself as you, as you meet people who are in the know, you know, we're all working to the same goal, to protect the nation, to protect our people.
Mike Gruen:Cool. I think one of the agencies, you men or one of the departments, uh, that you mentioned, uh, that first came up was, uh, d o e Department of Energy. I think people forget how much of their mission is around security as well. Mm-hmm. They have some, uh, some systems that they need secured. So, um, another good one up there with the rest of them to, to
Tim Winkler:look at. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. All right. Uh, I'll, I'll, I'll flip this over to Jasmine too. So, um, a little, little bit of a, a similar scenario here, but instead of Mike and I being, you know, candidates looking for, for new roles, uh, let's just say we're co-founders, uh, of a cyber product, um, and a startup. And primarily we've been working with, you know, larger com, commercial Fortune 500 s, uh, and now we're trying to pivot, you know, from a little bit outside of all commercial in trying to get our, our products positioned to, to serve defense. How might me, how might Mike and I wanna navigate these waters? Like what kind of options are out there for us?
Jazmin Furtado:Yeah. Well first I would commend you for wanting to enter into the dance space. It is not, it is not for
Tim Winkler:the, it was Mike's idea
Thomas Horlacher:certainly wasn't,
Jazmin Furtado:go on. Sorry. It's not for the, but the, the mission is so important and we need people like you to be in this space and add our, to our competitive advantage. Uh, I would say that they're, you know, the DOD is really big. What's great is that a lot of these units are, they have websites that you can go to to learn more about, like the mission space. I mean, Wikipedia is also a place as well to like chart, try to, um, navigate the, the, the d o d. It's, it's, it's a lot to cover, but I would say really know your value proposition and own how it could be dual use of how it can, you know, how it's obviously serving your clientele now, but how it could be used in the D O D and that, you know, reach out to people in the D O D and you know, everyone knows other people. So, um, be get comfortable getting to know the people within the Department of Defense. Um, there's so much opportunity that you may not even know. I mean, we mentioned a few in the, in the, uh, in the call, so we talked about, you know, the small business, innovative research, like the c r process. Looking at that, you can, you tell all these different agencies, look at those events that they have going on and their calls, um, like they will post what they're looking for. Um, these, uh, Organizations are constantly posting the needs of the Department of Defense. So just take a look on there, see if anything, you know, if there's any gaps that you can see off of those sites that you can fill. But there's also like units that just have like front doors. Like they just will have, like I know Space Systems Command has just a front door process for all small businesses that want to work with the Space Force. So there's a lot of different processes. It's just a matter of just reaching out to someone, um, LinkedIn find someone mm-hmm. That you think is in a position that resonates with your company or is in a unit that's related to, um, your company. So, um, network, reach out. I mean, we're, we're a big organization, but we all know each other in one way or another. So, um, really excited for you to be in this space and, uh, look forward to having you.
Tim Winkler:Good stuff. Yeah, it's so true. I mean, you know, so just in full transparency as well, you know, we, you know, we were primarily just helping commercial startups, um, you know, with a lot of talent initiatives, uh, for years and in the last seven, eight months, you know, just kind of seeing a little bit of the instability in the commercial startup space, you know, you know, as a founder I was like, look, we need to protect ourselves. We're, we're gonna dive into some of this defense work. And so what I started doing, I started to, one, use our community as a, as a tool to, to create more awareness and make connections and, and start to, you know, meet folks like you, like you all. But then two, I just, I just cold email darpa, uh, directly and it was actually their, um, e emerging, um, entrepreneurship initiatives. Uh, subdivision and just kind of let them know like, this is how we're innovating and helping on the commercial side. I think we could really help some of those companies that are, that are, uh, you know, you're breeding, uh, outta darpa, uh, and would love to just kind of explore a conversation. And they got, I got a response fairly quickly. I was surprised. Um, scheduling the first discussion has been a little bit of a, a snafu, but we're getting there. Um, but I will say like, they're open and, and there is a, a want, I think that's the theme I want to communicate is that, uh, there is a clearly a, a known like gap that needs to be fixed and they're open to fixing that. So, um, now is a great time to take that step and, um, yeah, just, you know, it might be uncomfortable cause you don't know enough about it, but, um, everybody seems very helpful in like wanting to educate because they know that. It's for the greater good for a country. Um, so, um, I'm going to close with that. I think this was helpful. Uh, I think we've, we've got a couple of other episodes that we're gonna build on this. I'm excited to bring some other perspectives into the mix that maybe coming from like digital consultancies that are, you know, helping build, you know, big software projects for, uh, in the federal space too. Uh, we talked a lot about defense on this one. Um, and, and I think this is a, a hairy one. This is a, a pretty tricky one to navigate, but this is helpful to, to at least get the, um, yeah, the initial blocks, uh, going. Um, alright, so, uh, a segment that I, I love, um, we're, we're gonna jump into, this is the five second scramble. So, um, we're not gonna be super brutal on you all. We don't have like a buzzer where we're gonna buzz you if you exceed your five seconds to, to answer. Um, but try to keep it brief, uh, if possible, uh, it'll be a mix of, uh, of wrapped fire. Business and, and some personal, uh, Natalie, we're gonna start with, um, with you and then Jasmine, we'll get to you. Um, we ready? Ready. All right, here we go. Uh, what problems are you solving at John's Hopkins? Applied Physics Lab. I.
Natalie Barrett:So we're solving problems, um, related to big data for public health information, trying to make sure that all war fighters as they transition outta the military, have their entire personal health information, um, uh, data set. And we are trying to make sure that as they transition, they transition well to other big data efforts, um, in health places like Epic. You think about MyChart, you know, any, any, uh, war fighter as a transition that should transition? Well, we also think about what the insights are that you could gather if you actually had your entire personal health information data set. Uh, we talk about phi, personal health information, but how many of us actually have our own phi or a copy of it? Um, so I think a great place to start is with the war fighters. Um, the DOD does have those pieces of information, and it's a great environment to help move the nation to a place where, uh, or to a precedent of each individual having a copy of their own personal health information.
Tim Winkler:What, what type of technologist thrives, um, in your environment?
Natalie Barrett:I love that question. I would say all types of technologists and, and engineers. We need all kinds in this space, which is why Jasmine said like, if you're an engineer, if you're an innovator, we just need to,
Tim Winkler:what professional advice would you give your younger self? Just starting your career?
Thomas Horlacher:Get your
Natalie Barrett:PhD as soon as you graduate. Don't delay in education.
Tim Winkler:Wow, that's loaded. All right. Um, what do you love most about yourself? Uh,
Natalie Barrett:I love that I can laugh at myself.
Tim Winkler:That's great quality. What's your favorite type of bagel?
Natalie Barrett:An everything bagel. Cuz I can never choose. I just want it all.
Tim Winkler:That's the right answer. Um, what is the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed? I
Thomas Horlacher:think in the
Natalie Barrett:Mc hammer pants, uh, when I was little, um, my grandmother made me mc hammer pants with a jumpsuit. Like, so when those came together, that was just, wow. Um, I think we renamed them the Piaz Palazzo pants. Not any better.
Tim Winkler:I've got a, I got a good visual. Um, uh, what is a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?
Thomas Horlacher:Um,
Natalie Barrett:my favorite is Beyond Rhetoric. It is an organization that works with our imprisoned youth, um, to help make sure that they seem, they are, um, they're seen and
Tim Winkler:heard. Wow, that's really cool. What was the name of it? The organization?
Thomas Horlacher:Yeah. It's
Natalie Barrett:called Beyond Rhetoric.
Tim Winkler:Okay, cool. Yeah, we'll, we'll include that in the, the show nights. I like that. Um, do you believe there's life on other planets?
Natalie Barrett:Absolutely. How could there not be? Yeah.
Tim Winkler:I had a feeling that was gonna be your answer. Um, what is the number one country that you would recommend everyone travel to once in their life?
Thomas Horlacher:I think we
Natalie Barrett:should all make it to Australia, uh, at least once to see Sydney and to appreciate the diversity of that environment. I think the way that they treat their indigenous population is unique and highly valuable. Um, so definitely put that on your bucket
Tim Winkler:list. Cool. All right. Well done. You passed with flying colors. That was great. Um, Jasmine, you've got some big shoes to fill here. Oh, wait, do I get the same questions? Oh, no, they're completely different. If you, in case you were taking notes, I was like,
Thomas Horlacher:okay.
Jazmin Furtado:I was hoping that it'd be similar. I was like, great, what would I do? Okay. All right. There's some overlap.
Tim Winkler:Some overlap. Okay. We'll see. Okay. All right. Um, what problems are you solving at Space Force?
Jazmin Furtado:So right now there's a really big digital innovation push in Space Force. We have a ton of data and we're trying to figure out how to make that easily accessible, um, to everyone in the Space Force, trying to make things as open as possible and secure as possible. So it's the lifelong, uh, challenge of bringing data together so that you could disseminate it out very easily. So it's a big challenge, um, and it's a really exciting time for the Space Force.
Tim Winkler:Awesome. What would you say is one of the biggest challenges that fa, that startup founders will face in 2023?
Thomas Horlacher:Oh,
Tim Winkler:I just got anxiety. I don't know about you. There's so many. Yeah. Oh my
Jazmin Furtado:gosh. Well, one that's like top of mind for me is dis differentiating yourself in this like age, just budding age of AI and generative AI that we find ourselves in. Uh, if there's gonna be a real big distinction between companies that really embrace that in companies that don't. So that's, I would say the biggest challenge is figuring out how to embrace those technologies and integrate 'em into your product.
Tim Winkler:Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well said. Um, and I like that it wasn't just the, the layup answer. I, I was thinking, uh, c access to capital as well. Um, but uh, I think that's, uh, that can go without saying at this point. Um, what, um, what is your favorite aspect of working, uh, with Space Force?
Jazmin Furtado:My favorite aspect is the, the potential. And it's just so exciting. There's so much to be done. And it's this like area, right? It's this place, the final frontier situation. Mm-hmm. It's just such deciding place to be. So I just love that there's a lot of opportunity and there's, there's like no precedence for what a space force is supposed to look like. So that is the most exciting piece. It's just the, the novelty
Tim Winkler:of it all. That's so cool. I, I remember when it first came out too, and people were like, space force, what is this? You know, like, uh, and now I think people are like, damn, that's cool. Yeah. Everyone
Jazmin Furtado:that's a part of it can define what it means.
Tim Winkler:Yeah. All right. Um, what is a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?
Jazmin Furtado:I have, um, I'm a co-founder of my own nonprofit, uh, called Vesper. We provide educational support to, um, conflict areas in the Philippines, Ethiopia. So that's one that's near and dear. It's, uh, something that I started when I was in college, uh, because there was a huge typhoon that hit the Philippines, typhoon Yolanda, and it devastated so many of the smaller areas and places that were really hard to get to for multiple reasons. So with my nonprofit, I worked to remove some of those barriers to get educational support to those areas that are, uh, hit by conflict, whether that be environmental or with
Tim Winkler:people. Wow. That's awesome. What, what was the name of it again? So, we'll, we'll make sure we include that Vesper. Very neat. All right. This is a, uh, a very lighthearted transition here. So what is your favorite cereal? Pretty pebbles. Oh, strong. Um, would you rather vacation on, on the moon or, or on Mars?
Thomas Horlacher:Ooh,
Jazmin Furtado:I think on Mars it seems a little warmer just cause.
Tim Winkler:Awesome. Um, do you have a celebrity doppelganger?
Jazmin Furtado:Um, a celebrity DFO Kinger is, oh, Sarah Hyland. Okay. I don't, that's, I can't, I can't think of any other than
Tim Winkler:that. Tim Google, Sarah Hyland. Um, But yes. I will Google that later, but, we'll, yeah. We'll take your word for it. Um, do you have any phobias or irrational fears?
Jazmin Furtado:Yes. Um, I have a phobia of clavicles. Hmm. I, I, I don't like feeling things like touching my clavicle. I don't like seeing, like, exposed cla. I have a thing with clavicles. It's interesting. It is very irrational and very odd.
Tim Winkler:Um, okay. Another lighthearted transition. Would you rather have a pet dragon or a pet unicorn? A pet
Jazmin Furtado:dragon.
Tim Winkler:Cool. That, that's just so cool. It is cool. What is your favorite Disney character?
Jazmin Furtado:Oh my gosh. I was just at Disneyland yesterday.
Thomas Horlacher:Um, oh no, that is hard.
Jazmin Furtado:That is very hard. I'm thinking of Moana right now.
Tim Winkler:Oh, nice. Yeah. Great soundtrack too. Yeah, right. Yeah. I gotta ask the room. Nat, what's yours? Do you have a favorite Disney character?
Thomas Horlacher:Um,
Natalie Barrett:I don't, I don't know either. I was thinking the Girl in Brave, but I don't know her name. Okay. I think that's a great, a great
Tim Winkler:character. Oh, it looks like Thomas. Just let us know. Oh, hey, her name is
Thomas Horlacher:Marita. I
Tim Winkler:don't think so. Oh, that's maybe his. Oh, that's
Natalie Barrett:yours. Okay.
Tim Winkler:I mean, I, I, Mike, what about you? I mean,
Mike Gruen:I'd have to cheat cuz uh, now that Disney owns, uh, star Wars Orhan Solo.
Tim Winkler:Okay. Yeah, that's pretty, that's a good answer. That's a pro, that's a pro answer cuz you heard this before is before
Thomas Horlacher:know. I was gonna say that's why almost
Tim Winkler:is it really?
Mike Gruen:I mean it's not, it's, yes, I have heard it before, but I'm not a big Disney like the other, the Disney cartoons. The other Disney properties, uh, fan. So I know.
Jazmin Furtado:Is that like OG Disney? That's not
Thomas Horlacher:All
Tim Winkler:right. So it is Marita or it is Marita. Yep. All right.
Thomas Horlacher:Cool. All.
Natalie Barrett:See, I'm super detail oriented, just clearly, you know, love the
Tim Winkler:details. And so while we have a producer that just fact checks everybody, make sure to make sure. So good. Um, alright y'all, this was, this was a blast. Thank you so much for, for, uh, joining us and, and being great guest. And, um, yeah, we look forward to, uh, yeah, building more awareness on how to best, you know, marry commercial tech and, and defense. Uh, so I just wanted to thank you both for, for hanging out with us on the hat pad. Appreciate it.
Natalie Barrett:Thank you. So important. Thanks
Thomas Horlacher:so much. Awesome.