Breaking into the Federal Defense Sector with Emerging Technology | The Pair Program EP25

May 9, 2023

Ep25 Breaking into the Federal Defense Sector with Emerging Technology

Welcome to today’s episode, where we discuss emerging technologies in the federal defense space – and how those coming from the commercial world can break into this exciting space.In this episode you’ll hear from Natalie Barrett and Jazmin Furtado. Natalie is currently assigned to the Warfighter Health and Readiness Program at Johns Hopkins’ Applied Physics Laboratory. Jazmin is part of the software innovation realm for the Department of Defense where she has overseen large-scale Data and AI programs in the Air Force and Space Force.They discuss:

  • The tech problems that are top of mind in the federal defense sector.
  • How innovative tech is being injected into the defense space.
  • The role that commercial plays in the defense space – how commercial companies can break into this space (and how individual can too)

SOF Conference – https://www.sofweek.org/

Links to discussed Organizations

Vespere – https://www.vespere.org/

Beyond Rhetoric – https://beyondrhetoric.org/

SOCOM – https://www.socom.mil/

DARPA – https://www.darpa.mil/

IARPA – https://www.iarpa.gov/

Kessel Run – https://kesselrun.af.mil/

In-Q-Tel – https://www.iqt.org/

National Science Foundation – https://www.nsf.gov/

AFWERX – https://www.afwerx.af.mil/

Transcript
Tim Winkler:

Welcome to the PAIR program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

Tim Winkler:

a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world.

Tim Winkler:

I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of hatchpad, and I'm your other

Mike Gruen:

host, Mike Gruin.

Tim Winkler:

Join us each, each episode as we bring together two guests to

Tim Winkler:

dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth.

Thomas Horlacher:

The views expressed within this podcast are solely the

Thomas Horlacher:

speakers and do not reflect the opinions

Tim Winkler:

and beliefs of any organization or company.

Tim Winkler:

So what's up everyone?

Tim Winkler:

We are back for another episode of the Pair Program.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, I am your host, Tim Winkler Company by my co-host Mike Gruen.

Tim Winkler:

Mike, you are a space fan, right?

Tim Winkler:

Yes.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, did you watch the, the launch yesterday, the

Tim Winkler:

SpaceX, uh, Starship Launch?

Tim Winkler:

No, I did not.

Tim Winkler:

Oh, so not a big space fan?

Tim Winkler:

Not,

Mike Gruen:

not as huge as Space fan as I once was when I was younger.

Tim Winkler:

Okay.

Tim Winkler:

Jasmine, I'd imagine you, you, uh, tuned in.

Jazmin Furtado:

Yeah, I was gonna say maybe it was a good thing that you

Jazmin Furtado:

didn't

Tim Winkler:

watch.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

It, so it was a rollercoaster ride.

Tim Winkler:

I'm not gonna lie.

Tim Winkler:

My wife and I watched it and, you know, we were just so thrilled to see it

Tim Winkler:

get off the platform and, and then I think everybody's reactions were fairly

Tim Winkler:

similar of like, oh, is it supposed to be doing back flip, like multiple back

Tim Winkler:

flips and then just a huge explosion.

Tim Winkler:

And I was like, oh my gosh.

Tim Winkler:

That was, it was like, uh, it was terrifying.

Tim Winkler:

I, I was happy and then sad and concerned.

Tim Winkler:

I don't know.

Tim Winkler:

It.

Tim Winkler:

I, yeah, there's,

Jazmin Furtado:

there's only one or zero, you know, there's only two endings.

Tim Winkler:

Right.

Tim Winkler:

But there was nobody on on board that Correct.

Tim Winkler:

Was that just a test launch?

Tim Winkler:

Correct.

Jazmin Furtado:

There was no one on board.

Jazmin Furtado:

Okay.

Thomas Horlacher:

That was, there was a

Natalie Barrett:

lot of failing fast, though.

Natalie Barrett:

Fast, fast failings important, you know, in innovation.

Natalie Barrett:

So,

Thomas Horlacher:

and, and expensive filling ground.

Thomas Horlacher:

Spectacular.

Thomas Horlacher:

That's

Tim Winkler:

right.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah, it was, it was pretty entertaining.

Tim Winkler:

It, obviously, it sounds like a, a huge, a huge win in terms of, you know,

Tim Winkler:

that many engines and launching without having the, the failure to begin with.

Tim Winkler:

But, uh, still some work to be done.

Tim Winkler:

Um, Well, cool.

Tim Winkler:

Well, let's, let's give the listeners a heads up on today's episode.

Tim Winkler:

So, you know, we are trying to create, uh, more awareness for how advanced

Tim Winkler:

technology is being injected into the public sector, so specifically defense

Tim Winkler:

and, and federal civilian agencies.

Tim Winkler:

Um, and we wanted to, you know, we wanna approach this from a few different angles.

Tim Winkler:

So, for example, you know, you might be a technologist, like a, a software engineer

Tim Winkler:

or a, a product manager who's worked your entire career in the commercial space.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, or, or maybe for a commercial startup, and you're looking to transition, you

Tim Winkler:

know, your career into the public sector, maybe supporting a, a large government

Tim Winkler:

contract or a defense project, or you, you could be a founder, uh, of a, of a

Tim Winkler:

small startup who's maybe building your product and delivering your, or, or

Tim Winkler:

your service to commercial customers.

Tim Winkler:

But now you wanna diversify your, your customer base, maybe break into the

Tim Winkler:

federal or, or, or defense market.

Tim Winkler:

So we wanted to compile a co, like a short mini series of these episodes on

Tim Winkler:

the podcast to help bridge this gap.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, and so we're kicking it off with today's episode, which we are labeling,

Tim Winkler:

um, how Emerging Technologies Augment the Fence Innovation Initiatives.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, so that's a, it's a mouthful.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, it's a, it, it might sound a little bit confusing.

Tim Winkler:

And so in lieu of emerging technologies, I went ahead and plugged this into chat,

Tim Winkler:

G P T and just asked it to break this down for me as if I were a five year old.

Tim Winkler:

And here's what.

Tim Winkler:

Came back.

Tim Winkler:

So emerging technologies are new things that people are inventing or discovering.

Tim Winkler:

Some of these new things can help the military make better weapons

Tim Winkler:

and protect the country better.

Tim Winkler:

Defense innovation initiatives means that the military is trying to

Tim Winkler:

come up with new ideas to be better at their jobs and protect people.

Tim Winkler:

They want to use these new technologies to help them do that.

Tim Winkler:

So how emerging technologies augment defense innovation initiatives means

Tim Winkler:

that new things that people are inventing can help the military come up with.

Tim Winkler:

Better ideas and tools to protect the country.

Tim Winkler:

So I'd like to thank Chad g p t for channeling that inner child

Tim Winkler:

for us, and, uh, helping us adults have to not think quite as hard.

Tim Winkler:

Um, but, uh, to help us really break this down, we, we have a couple of really

Tim Winkler:

great guests to help us, uh, tackle the topic, both of which have spent years

Tim Winkler:

innovating in the defense industry.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, Jasmine Furtado, uh, is a technical program manager for data and AI

Tim Winkler:

within the United States Space Force.

Tim Winkler:

And Natalie Barrett, a program area manager at Johns Hopkins University,

Tim Winkler:

applied Physics Laboratory.

Tim Winkler:

Thank you both for spending some time with us today on the PAIR program.

Tim Winkler:

Thanks for having us.

Tim Winkler:

Of course, of course.

Tim Winkler:

All right.

Tim Winkler:

Now, uh, before we dive in, uh, we'd like to kick things off of the fun

Tim Winkler:

segment that we call, pair me up.

Tim Winkler:

Pair, pair me up.

Tim Winkler:

So here's where we all go around the room.

Tim Winkler:

We'll shout out a complimentary pairing.

Tim Winkler:

Mike, you always kick us off.

Tim Winkler:

So what, what do you got for us today?

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

So, uh,

Mike Gruen:

today, uh, it goes back to the, over the weekend.

Mike Gruen:

Um, I've been trying to just sort of eat less.

Mike Gruen:

Um, this came up before we started recording, uh, my doctor yelling at me.

Mike Gruen:

Um, so one of the things I I, over the weekend that I noticed was when I'm

Mike Gruen:

doing yard work, I can go hours without eating, uh, which is somewhat good.

Mike Gruen:

So I went out.

Mike Gruen:

So, so my pairing is yard work and not eating.

Mike Gruen:

Um, I just, when I'm just out there doing whatever, I don't wanna even notice that

Mike Gruen:

I'm hungry as opposed to like, when I'm sitting at my computer doing my, like,

Mike Gruen:

actual job, like I feel it all the time.

Mike Gruen:

It's like, and there's some psychological stuff going on there,

Mike Gruen:

but that's my, that's my parent.

Tim Winkler:

I feel like I'm opposite, actually.

Tim Winkler:

I feel like if I'm working out in the yard, I, I just get starving.

Tim Winkler:

Um,

Mike Gruen:

I mean, I come in starving, but I don't notice it while I'm out there.

Mike Gruen:

I can just be, I, whatever it is, whether I'm.

Tim Winkler:

You don't have access to snacks prior in the yard.

Tim Winkler:

Gotcha.

Tim Winkler:

No.

Tim Winkler:

Unless, yeah.

Mike Gruen:

I mean, unless I start eating the bamboo like a panda.

Mike Gruen:

Cuz that's, that's usually what I'm fighting with.

Mike Gruen:

Uh, we have a

Tim Winkler:

lot of, lot of Oh, you've got bamboo?

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Got bamboo issue.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

It's terrible.

Mike Gruen:

Oh, that's brutal.

Mike Gruen:

Tell

Thomas Horlacher:

me,

Jazmin Furtado:

make a garden.

Tim Winkler:

What's

Jazmin Furtado:

that, Jasmine?

Jazmin Furtado:

You need to make a garden.

Jazmin Furtado:

You gotta grow a garden up.

Mike Gruen:

Now I just need to slash and burn it and move or something.

Mike Gruen:

I don't know.

Tim Winkler:

It's, or if you just grow, if you just grow vegetables, you know,

Tim Winkler:

then you can kind of two birds, one stone.

Tim Winkler:

You can eat healthy while you're out there doing your yard work.

Tim Winkler:

Yes.

Tim Winkler:

There you go.

Tim Winkler:

All right, we'll, we'll accept that answer.

Tim Winkler:

I appreciate it.

Tim Winkler:

Alright, so my, my pairing, um, my pairing today is going to be babies and Mohawks.

Tim Winkler:

Um, so as I've mentioned before on, on previous episodes now, my wife and

Tim Winkler:

I, we welcomed our daughter Alice into the world, uh, four months ago now.

Tim Winkler:

And, you know, whenever we do bath time, you know, papa gets to play

Tim Winkler:

stylist and I get to draw her hair in different, uh, styles that I like.

Tim Winkler:

So I wanted to experiment, uh, with a little Mohawk, uh, on her.

Tim Winkler:

And I'll share, lemme see if I can share this picture.

Tim Winkler:

You guys see that pretty good?

Tim Winkler:

Right.

Tim Winkler:

So I will just say that having a baby with a mohawk and walking around with

Tim Winkler:

her, um, it gets a ton of praise.

Tim Winkler:

People.

Tim Winkler:

People like it, it's well received by the people.

Tim Winkler:

Um, and it's, uh, I think it's just a people pleaser.

Tim Winkler:

So she's got a lot of compliments and just seems to bring out an

Tim Winkler:

element of her little personality.

Tim Winkler:

So I just say for any listeners out there that have babies, give it,

Tim Winkler:

give this a shot after bath night.

Tim Winkler:

Just wait and see what kind of reactions you receive.

Tim Winkler:

Um, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Tim Winkler:

Um, alright, let's pass it off to our guest now.

Tim Winkler:

So let's start with, uh, with Natalie.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, if you wanna give us just a quick intro and then your pairing.

Natalie Barrett:

Sure.

Natalie Barrett:

Nat Barrett.

Natalie Barrett:

Uh, I'm a technologist with a background in electrical and biomedical engineering.

Natalie Barrett:

I've had the privilege of serving Department of Defense for a very long

Natalie Barrett:

time now, and, uh, probably my favorite programs are related to exoskeletons

Natalie Barrett:

and brain computer interfaces to really advance and protect our war fighters.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, so my pairing is yoga and solitude.

Natalie Barrett:

As a mom of two, it is one of the only times that I get solitude

Natalie Barrett:

and the opportunity to really be creative and to let the ideas

Natalie Barrett:

percolate, um, of what's next.

Tim Winkler:

That's great.

Tim Winkler:

As far as yoga goes, what's like, um, do you have like a, a position that's like

Tim Winkler:

your, your go-to that you enjoy the most?

Natalie Barrett:

So, that's a great question.

Natalie Barrett:

My top is down dog, but my, but probably my favorite is called Savasana.

Natalie Barrett:

Where you lay still for minutes.

Natalie Barrett:

And so it's actually a place where you, it's almost like meditation.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, and you can, you can really be calm and the ideas just flow.

Tim Winkler:

It sounds like na, like nap time almost.

Tim Winkler:

It's

Thomas Horlacher:

a nap time.

Thomas Horlacher:

Don't,

Tim Winkler:

don't.

Tim Winkler:

That's great.

Tim Winkler:

Um, I love it.

Tim Winkler:

I love it.

Tim Winkler:

And also love the, the work that you do.

Tim Winkler:

That sounds super fascinating.

Tim Winkler:

Can't wait to dive into that more.

Tim Winkler:

Um, but let's pass it over to Jasmine.

Tim Winkler:

How about, uh, your intro and, uh, and your pairing?

Jazmin Furtado:

Yeah.

Jazmin Furtado:

Well, thanks for having us here.

Jazmin Furtado:

Again.

Jazmin Furtado:

I'm Jasmine Furtado.

Jazmin Furtado:

I have worked a few data and AI initiatives in the Department

Jazmin Furtado:

of Defense, specifically in the Air Force and the Space Force.

Jazmin Furtado:

So, um, my pair today is, Dogs and sun patches.

Jazmin Furtado:

I just think of, it's just something in my head.

Jazmin Furtado:

My dog does that a lot actually, like finding sun patches on the floor.

Jazmin Furtado:

Oh yeah.

Jazmin Furtado:

And they just like, they're just naturally drawn to it and they just

Jazmin Furtado:

kinda just sit there, just lay there.

Jazmin Furtado:

They don't know anything about what sun, you know, dangerous sunlight.

Jazmin Furtado:

They just perform and they'll just stay there.

Jazmin Furtado:

And then as the patch moves, they'll also like move with it.

Jazmin Furtado:

So that's

Tim Winkler:

very, very good.

Tim Winkler:

That's awesome.

Tim Winkler:

That's a great pairing.

Tim Winkler:

That is a great pair.

Tim Winkler:

I mean, so this is one of my former dogs.

Tim Winkler:

He, he's no longer with us, but he was an awesome dog.

Tim Winkler:

His name was Griffin.

Tim Winkler:

And, um, he would love a good sun spott.

Tim Winkler:

I'd always like go out on my back deck and see 'em, just post it up.

Tim Winkler:

Um, it's, it's exactly right though.

Tim Winkler:

It's like dogs are just drawn to a good sun spott.

Tim Winkler:

It's like they know what, what's, what's comfort.

Tim Winkler:

It's good stuff.

Tim Winkler:

That is good stuff.

Tim Winkler:

Awesome.

Tim Winkler:

All right.

Tim Winkler:

Well, good round.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Um, let's, although we should have, have no

Mike Gruen:

whiskey, I think it's probably the first time in a while that

Mike Gruen:

we haven't had any food or, or beverage or

Tim Winkler:

anything.

Tim Winkler:

That's true.

Tim Winkler:

Well, I'm actually drinking a, uh, a cocktail right now.

Tim Winkler:

Good for you.

Tim Winkler:

So, um, yeah, thanks.

Tim Winkler:

Um, all right, well let's, uh, let's go ahead and transition into the episode.

Tim Winkler:

So, um, as I mentioned, we're gonna be talking about innovating in the D

Tim Winkler:

O D, which is Department of Defense, uh, and other defense related agencies

Tim Winkler:

like darpa, which is the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.

Tim Winkler:

And I'm gonna preface for our listeners, the majority of which

Tim Winkler:

are a lot of commercial focused technologists that your intro, uh, to

Tim Winkler:

government 1 0 1 lesson is, is that the government loves their acronyms.

Tim Winkler:

So you'll hear.

Tim Winkler:

A lot of acronyms, uh, throughout this episode.

Tim Winkler:

Um, but, uh, we'll be very mindful of this.

Tim Winkler:

Make sure that we, um, spell out what these are short for and, um,

Tim Winkler:

you know, we're only gonna begin to scratch the surface on this episode.

Tim Winkler:

Um, but our goal at a high level is to cover a few things.

Tim Winkler:

One, We wanna paint this picture of the types of problems that, like

Tim Winkler:

the defense is trying to solve, and in what types of technologies that

Tim Winkler:

are being used to, to solve these.

Tim Winkler:

Um, two, you know, we wanna discuss the importance of, of adding

Tim Winkler:

competition in this space, right?

Tim Winkler:

So, you know, making sure like, Commercial is brought in, uh, to innovate

Tim Winkler:

is a big piece of this conversation.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, not just keeping it only, you know, companies that are, you know,

Tim Winkler:

already tied into the defense space.

Tim Winkler:

Um, and then lastly, explain some of these different ways that you can

Tim Winkler:

collaborate and partner in this space.

Tim Winkler:

So, if you are a technologist that's looking to get into the, into the

Tim Winkler:

industry, how you might explore an opportunity as a career, or if you're

Tim Winkler:

a founder of a startup, how you might tap into, uh, the space from a sales

Tim Winkler:

perspective, uh, opening up a, creating a sales channel in these industries.

Tim Winkler:

So, let's jump in.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, there's a lot to talk about.

Tim Winkler:

Um, Jasmine, I, I kinda wanna start with you.

Tim Winkler:

Um, what are some of these kind of large scale problems in tech

Tim Winkler:

maybe that you've experienced in, in your career within defense or,

Tim Winkler:

uh, that are kind of top of mind?

Tim Winkler:

Uh, in, in today's market?

Jazmin Furtado:

Yeah.

Jazmin Furtado:

So to start off, just like with painting that picture, the Department

Jazmin Furtado:

of Defense has a lot of data.

Jazmin Furtado:

So my background has always been on the data side of the house,

Jazmin Furtado:

software side of the house, um, and analytics, artificial intelligence.

Jazmin Furtado:

So use that all as just context.

Jazmin Furtado:

So there, with the amount of data and the amount of systems that we have in the

Jazmin Furtado:

Department of Defense that's collecting data, it's a very complex environment.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's very complicated.

Jazmin Furtado:

There are so many things that are collecting information and

Jazmin Furtado:

there's so many people that are doing things without information.

Jazmin Furtado:

So you can imagine there's like jumbled mess of of data, data pipelines and

Jazmin Furtado:

you have so many people that can derive value from this information,

Jazmin Furtado:

but it's hard sometimes to.

Jazmin Furtado:

Pull out what's relevant.

Jazmin Furtado:

And it's hard to navigate this such a big ecosystem.

Jazmin Furtado:

So this area is really ripe for innovation.

Jazmin Furtado:

How do we bring more order to the, some of the chaos?

Jazmin Furtado:

And it's not a one size fits all solution.

Jazmin Furtado:

Every unit in the DOD is different.

Jazmin Furtado:

They have different skill sets, they have different, uh, different missions.

Jazmin Furtado:

They have different technology stacks.

Jazmin Furtado:

So there's a lot of different ways to tackle this problem.

Jazmin Furtado:

And the, the challenges that we see when it comes to like data innovation,

Jazmin Furtado:

uh, we see a lot of innovative.

Jazmin Furtado:

Efforts popping up as a result of that.

Jazmin Furtado:

So we'll see, uh, a lot of innovation hubs that, like, for lack of better

Jazmin Furtado:

term, I'm gonna quote unquote that cause some, some groups don't like

Jazmin Furtado:

to be considered innovation hubs and some do, so I'm just gonna use a

Jazmin Furtado:

blanket term, um, which is a little bit dangerous in this, in this regard.

Jazmin Furtado:

But there are these like groups that have sprung up in the last few years that

Jazmin Furtado:

are focused on quote unquote innovation.

Jazmin Furtado:

And so they are leaning forward in partnering with non-traditional companies.

Jazmin Furtado:

They are leaning forward in practicing more, you know, iterative agile practices.

Jazmin Furtado:

Uh, they're more interested in, you know, adopting more emerging technologies.

Jazmin Furtado:

And so they position themselves in areas that have a lot of data.

Jazmin Furtado:

They position themselves in areas in, in.

Jazmin Furtado:

Get, um, the appropriate infrastructure to be able to do

Jazmin Furtado:

agile fast software development.

Jazmin Furtado:

So in these areas, there's, there's, I can't even list all the different mission

Jazmin Furtado:

areas, um, cuz there's just so many.

Jazmin Furtado:

But you think, from my perspective, air Force Space Force, we see a lot

Jazmin Furtado:

of, uh, tracking, personnel management, um, optimization of processes, um,

Jazmin Furtado:

trying to identify events of interest.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, there's a, like any.

Jazmin Furtado:

Application that you could think of outside the military has the

Jazmin Furtado:

equivalent in the Department of Defense.

Jazmin Furtado:

So that's just to like set the stage a little bit.

Jazmin Furtado:

Sure.

Jazmin Furtado:

There's a lot of opportunity here.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

I mean, that's a loaded question.

Tim Winkler:

I mean, there's just so much that, uh, can still be done.

Tim Winkler:

Right.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, needs to be done.

Tim Winkler:

Um, but, uh, I think that's a good starting point.

Tim Winkler:

Nat, what about yourself?

Tim Winkler:

Uh, if you wanna maybe piggyback on, on the question and talk a little bit about,

Tim Winkler:

um, I, you worked at with DARPA for some time and, and then obviously at Johns

Tim Winkler:

Hopkins, a p l, you know, maybe setting the stage for, you know, some of those.

Tim Winkler:

Pro problems that you all have been tackling as well?

Natalie Barrett:

That's a great question.

Natalie Barrett:

One of the things I would really point anyone who's interested in getting into

Natalie Barrett:

the d o d space is to take a look at the National security strategy, the national

Natalie Barrett:

intelligence strategy, the space strategy.

Natalie Barrett:

There's a lot of content that's available and, um, publicly available for the, you

Natalie Barrett:

know, civilian sector to, to consume.

Natalie Barrett:

One of the things I wanted to, to add to what Jasmine said is that the

Natalie Barrett:

Department of Defense, in addition to these innovation hubs, has really

Natalie Barrett:

worked to make contracting easier.

Natalie Barrett:

Uh, for emerging companies, startups.

Natalie Barrett:

So they've made other transaction authority, uh, a priority, not

Natalie Barrett:

just at socom, but now d d wide.

Natalie Barrett:

In addition, they've started what's called the crada.

Natalie Barrett:

I'm sure they're doing that over on the space side too, which is

Natalie Barrett:

really an unfunded, um, cooperative research and development agreement

Natalie Barrett:

that allows companies who have great ideas to work alongside a DOD partner

Natalie Barrett:

to really get free input and free coaching as to where to go, what the

Natalie Barrett:

need is, and how to be successful.

Tim Winkler:

Real quick for, for folks that maybe aren't familiar, like socom,

Tim Winkler:

what, what is that an acronym for?

Natalie Barrett:

Oh yeah, thank you.

Natalie Barrett:

So Special Operations Command.

Natalie Barrett:

I'm a little bit biased.

Natalie Barrett:

I kind of see them as the tip of the spear.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, they do everything that the D O D does, but faster, smaller, uh,

Natalie Barrett:

lower profile, which just means, uh, not as spectacular as the launch

Natalie Barrett:

that happened yesterday, right?

Natalie Barrett:

So they keep their things very low profile things happen, uh, very targeted.

Natalie Barrett:

And so a lot of times what they're trying to achieve is sort of

Natalie Barrett:

accomplishing something in the most challenging environment, uh,

Natalie Barrett:

in the most expeditionary way.

Natalie Barrett:

And so if, if you have an idea, you know, looking to SOCOM

Natalie Barrett:

is a great place to start.

Natalie Barrett:

Cuz if you can solve something for socom, most likely it

Natalie Barrett:

will help the entire force of

Thomas Horlacher:

Department of Defense.

Thomas Horlacher:

Hmm.

Tim Winkler:

And so I'm, I'm learning a lot about this space.

Tim Winkler:

So, you know, I'm from the, the DC area and, and our business, we kind

Tim Winkler:

of started off, you know, not so much working with some of these more

Tim Winkler:

modern like defense tech customers, but, uh, you know, more of, you know,

Tim Winkler:

a lot of web software that's going on and, and, and, and the federal space.

Tim Winkler:

But, you know, over the last few years, you know, it seems like there's been

Tim Winkler:

a, a real big push for, you know, modernizing a lot of defense tech.

Tim Winkler:

Um, and so, you know, we've been kind of tuned into a lot of these, you

Tim Winkler:

know, kinda like research agencies.

Tim Winkler:

Like DARPA's is one that continues to kind of pop up on our radar.

Tim Winkler:

And, um, for those that maybe aren't familiar, can you, can you highlight

Tim Winkler:

or explain like what, what the mission is behind some of these, like,

Tim Winkler:

research agencies like DARPA and Detra?

Natalie Barrett:

Yeah, so DARPA Defense Advanced Research Projects

Natalie Barrett:

Agency, their goal is to basically change the course of history when

Natalie Barrett:

it comes to Department of Defense.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, they were founded because of what happened in, in with Sputnik.

Natalie Barrett:

Uh, the Russians sort of, uh, taken Archis first and we said,

Natalie Barrett:

that will never happen again.

Natalie Barrett:

We will create darpa.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, so I know Al Gore said he created the internet.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, you know, truth be told, darpa, it was called ARPA net, uh, was

Natalie Barrett:

the creation of the internet.

Natalie Barrett:

You know, one thing just to highlight.

Natalie Barrett:

The COVID Rapid test.

Natalie Barrett:

I had the opportunity of working on a program called the,

Natalie Barrett:

um, his program at the time.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, about 20 years ago, we developed this capability and it

Natalie Barrett:

has become the Covid Rapid Test.

Natalie Barrett:

And so that was through darpa.

Natalie Barrett:

It was to be an expeditionary medical testing device for our,

Natalie Barrett:

our operators in the field.

Natalie Barrett:

And so one thing to highlight everything at darpa, the intent is to first

Natalie Barrett:

benefit D o D, but they definitely, under Stephanie Tompkins see the need

Natalie Barrett:

to ensure that entrepreneurs are part of that ecosystem, if not the critical

Natalie Barrett:

piece, to the point that she's actually created what's called the e e i.

Natalie Barrett:

So if you search up e ei at darpa, you'll find the Embedded

Natalie Barrett:

Entrepreneurship Initiative, which is an effort so that if you.

Natalie Barrett:

A program or you develop a technology under a DARPA program and it's successful,

Natalie Barrett:

she will give you potentially $250,000 to make short transitions into an

Natalie Barrett:

actual product that you could market.

Thomas Horlacher:

When

Tim Winkler:

you Yeah, go ahead.

Tim Winkler:

Go.

Tim Winkler:

I was gonna say, it's, that's a, um, a very good example of, you

Tim Winkler:

know, somebody who's trying to, to get their foot in the door.

Tim Winkler:

You know, I almost equate it to like, pree funded startup, right?

Tim Winkler:

It's, it's like these smaller kind of grants and, and, uh, initiatives

Tim Winkler:

that are designed to help fuel that.

Tim Winkler:

Innovation for those folks that are just trying to get something off the ground

Tim Winkler:

or, or, you know, break ba break into a space where you can kind of use, you know,

Tim Winkler:

this customer base to test something out.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, I think it's a really, uh, fantastic, uh, you know, marriage

Tim Winkler:

of, of trying to inject commercial innovation into, you know, these

Tim Winkler:

larger regulated spaces that maybe are a lot more challenging to navigate.

Tim Winkler:

So I love, I love that initiative.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, I think it's really, really great.

Tim Winkler:

Sorry, I, I cut you off.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, no,

Natalie Barrett:

that's okay.

Natalie Barrett:

And you know, she's, the DAR has even gone to the point of creating consortiums

Natalie Barrett:

of cyber companies and, uh, effort called, uh, I wanna call, it's the say

Natalie Barrett:

it's the, uh, collaboration effort.

Natalie Barrett:

But I think it's actually called Constellation.

Natalie Barrett:

And in this constellation they have selected a set number of cyber companies

Natalie Barrett:

that come together and work together constantly over time to develop

Natalie Barrett:

advanced cyber tools for cyber command.

Natalie Barrett:

Uh, another, another very unique, um, capability that DARPA's working on.

Natalie Barrett:

And so I would say DARPA is really opening their scope of what they call innovation.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, and you know, if you have an idea, they always have what's called

Natalie Barrett:

an open broad agency announcement.

Natalie Barrett:

So you can put any idea in there at any time.

Natalie Barrett:

It doesn't have to, you know, be solicited.

Natalie Barrett:

Mm-hmm.

Tim Winkler:

It's fascinating.

Tim Winkler:

Um, it's, it kind of, uh, leads me down the path in Jasmine.

Tim Winkler:

You were kind of a.

Tim Winkler:

Touching on this as well, when you were explaining a little bit

Tim Winkler:

more of, of how folks might gain access into, into this innovation.

Tim Winkler:

And you referenced these innovation hubs or these innovation labs, and you,

Tim Winkler:

um, have, you know, worked with, with a few in, in the past, uh, castle Run.

Tim Winkler:

Sounds like this was one of those environments.

Tim Winkler:

Um, can you talk a little bit ab about how these operate?

Tim Winkler:

Um, you know, we, you know, in the, in the commercial startup space, right?

Tim Winkler:

There's oftentimes these venture studios and, and I don't know if that's kind

Tim Winkler:

of parallel to this, uh, but if you can kind of explain a little bit more

Tim Winkler:

and dive a little bit deeper into how they operate and then, you know, how

Tim Winkler:

uh, someone might explore a partnership through one of these hubs or labs.

Jazmin Furtado:

Yeah, so there are a lot of different types of flavors

Jazmin Furtado:

in the sense of innovation hubs.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, keel is an actual unit, it's a, like a program.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, program office that has like a budget and they have a mission.

Jazmin Furtado:

And so they are doing organic software development to meet

Jazmin Furtado:

the needs of that mission.

Jazmin Furtado:

So they have, uh, peop like military members, civilians, that are building code

Jazmin Furtado:

to meet the needs of our war fighters.

Jazmin Furtado:

And there are other, um, innovation hubs that are, are, you know,

Jazmin Furtado:

working on different mission areas throughout the departments.

Jazmin Furtado:

There's also things that are more associated or tied to

Jazmin Furtado:

like research like space.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, space camp, for example.

Jazmin Furtado:

They're tied with air, the Air Force research labs.

Jazmin Furtado:

And they are built, they're also a software development organization,

Jazmin Furtado:

but they're not, they're, they're, they're associated through a F R L.

Jazmin Furtado:

There's also these groups like Space Works AppWorks, that are really more

Jazmin Furtado:

focused on bringing small businesses, non-traditional businesses and technology,

Jazmin Furtado:

and fast tracking them, or finding ways to inject them into those types of units.

Jazmin Furtado:

Say, you know, like Keres innovation hubs or just other units that

Jazmin Furtado:

are a little bit more traditional and try to modernize them.

Jazmin Furtado:

So they're, depending on your product and depending on your, your business

Jazmin Furtado:

model, you, you can find multiple ways in to work with the Department of Defense.

Jazmin Furtado:

So I always look at these like areas like F Works, space works, the S

Jazmin Furtado:

B I R, the small business, um, in.

Jazmin Furtado:

Small business, innovative innovation research or innovative research.

Jazmin Furtado:

I dunno which of the two.

Jazmin Furtado:

And then the, um, s uh, s ttr, which is like the small business,

Jazmin Furtado:

like technology transition.

Jazmin Furtado:

Uh, oh gosh.

Jazmin Furtado:

The, the acronyms.

Jazmin Furtado:

I, this is why they

Mike Gruen:

have acronyms.

Mike Gruen:

So you don't have to remember all the long names.

Natalie Barrett:

I know.

Jazmin Furtado:

And I was just like, I always like

Tim Winkler:

forget them.

Tim Winkler:

It's like, yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Now what is it?

Tim Winkler:

The C Sieber, um, S B I R, uh, um,

Jazmin Furtado:

small Business Innovation Research.

Jazmin Furtado:

I'm just looking.

Jazmin Furtado:

That's right.

Jazmin Furtado:

And then small Business Technology transfer.

Jazmin Furtado:

That's S B T T, I guess.

Jazmin Furtado:

So those are two ways that small businesses can, uh, get on contract

Jazmin Furtado:

with the Department of Defense to.

Jazmin Furtado:

Uh, build a technology that may be more emerging.

Jazmin Furtado:

Mm-hmm.

Jazmin Furtado:

And then go through multiple phases to eventually get to a mature enough state

Jazmin Furtado:

where you can more closely partner in a more operational way with a unit.

Tim Winkler:

That's fascinating.

Tim Winkler:

So, yeah, I've, I've been, you know, trying to educate myself a bit more

Tim Winkler:

on this too, and talking to folks that are participating on these,

Tim Winkler:

um, S B I R kind of initiatives.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, and they, like you mentioned, they break them down into phases and each

Tim Winkler:

phase you're kind of given a small chunk of cash to hit a milestone.

Tim Winkler:

Is that right?

Tim Winkler:

So like, phase one, you've got four months to get this prototype kind

Tim Winkler:

of to a certain stage, and then once it's kind of improving at that

Tim Winkler:

point, it's almost like that another round of funding comes for phase two.

Tim Winkler:

Is that, is that how it works?

Tim Winkler:

I.

Jazmin Furtado:

Yeah.

Jazmin Furtado:

And you don't have to necessarily start in phase one.

Jazmin Furtado:

You could start at any of these phases.

Jazmin Furtado:

It just depends on the maturity of your technology.

Jazmin Furtado:

Okay.

Jazmin Furtado:

Uh, but you basically apply based off the criteria for each of those phases.

Jazmin Furtado:

You apply for, uh, the, the contracts and if you can find a use case, uh,

Jazmin Furtado:

within the Department of Defense, which is generally pretty easy to find.

Jazmin Furtado:

Mm-hmm.

Jazmin Furtado:

Although the actual people is another story.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, but like the, the concept of, oh, this could be valuable to the

Jazmin Furtado:

Department of Defense is usually something that can be found.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, and then it's just a matter of finding the unit and the people to champion

Jazmin Furtado:

it within the Department of Defense.

Jazmin Furtado:

And that's like another hurdle.

Jazmin Furtado:

Hmm.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

And we'll, uh, include all, all this in our show notes because there's a lot of

Tim Winkler:

things that are getting thrown around here that are actually super valuable.

Tim Winkler:

I, I've, you know, just from doing my disco calls with both of you all,

Tim Winkler:

I, I took a ton of notes and went down the rabbit hole of, of research.

Tim Winkler:

So like, AF works, right?

Tim Winkler:

It's W e r x, is that, is that accurate?

Tim Winkler:

It's AF W e r X.

Tim Winkler:

And that'll take you down a whole nother path of, of areas of, of,

Tim Winkler:

you know, these innovation hubs.

Tim Winkler:

So, um, we'll include all that in the show notes.

Tim Winkler:

Um, before we transition to the next point, Mike, I was curious,

Tim Winkler:

uh, you know, you've been in, in tech in this area for some time.

Tim Winkler:

Did you ever, uh, you know, participate down, you know, the public sector path?

Tim Winkler:

Did you ever work for a government contractor or any,

Tim Winkler:

anything along those lines?

Tim Winkler:

Yeah, all of the above.

Mike Gruen:

So, um, couple companies ago, well now, a few companies

Mike Gruen:

ago, uh, we were doing, uh, it was national language processing.

Mike Gruen:

Uh, and then, uh, there was a big, uh, INQ Tel investment in us, uh, that got us

Mike Gruen:

into the NSA and with, um, cia, nsa, fbi.

Mike Gruen:

Um, trying to track down, uh, using natural language processing to find

Mike Gruen:

bad guys, uh, potentially terrorists, um, both foreign and domestic.

Mike Gruen:

Um, so that was, you know, and that was a, I'm curious, uh, to our guests, like,

Mike Gruen:

um, is Intel somebody who worked with D o d or is that strictly Intel community?

Mike Gruen:

Na,

Natalie Barrett:

I, or, you know, I would definitely encourage anyone to go

Natalie Barrett:

work or to put in a business plan Intel.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, you know, our IC and D or D are, are well connected and, and play and

Natalie Barrett:

kind and so any, any technology that.

Natalie Barrett:

Any technology trade show that you see that comes up that Inq Tell is hosting?

Natalie Barrett:

I would go right, the same thing with Soft Week.

Natalie Barrett:

I would go, yeah.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, those are opportunities to, you know, like Jasmine said, it's

Natalie Barrett:

hard to find the people go to the events where they actually present

Natalie Barrett:

themselves and, and go chat with them.

Natalie Barrett:

Another one is SOCOM has, uh, a TE event, which is their techno

Natalie Barrett:

technical experimentation event.

Natalie Barrett:

Another place where you can go and showcase your work and have actual

Natalie Barrett:

operators or war fighters come and assess

Thomas Horlacher:

them.

Mike Gruen:

And yeah, back to your question too, I, there was another, I

Mike Gruen:

mean the Intel's been my means in, at three companies where they were the ones

Mike Gruen:

who sort of took, made the introduction.

Mike Gruen:

They saw what we were doing, what our technology was.

Mike Gruen:

Uh, there was a different company worked at, um, where we were looking

Mike Gruen:

for, um, inside risk, inside threat that actors those types of things.

Mike Gruen:

Um, and were able to, again, it was an intel, made some introductions into for

Mike Gruen:

us and, uh, also made an investment.

Mike Gruen:

Um, for those that don't know, maybe, um, one of you could,

Mike Gruen:

uh, sort of say what Intel is.

Mike Gruen:

Um, cuz I'll just butcher it cuz I only know from the, having received the funds.

Mike Gruen:

Um, or am I putting you on the spot?

Mike Gruen:

I, I

Tim Winkler:

apologize.

Tim Winkler:

I'm.

Tim Winkler:

I can, I can, I mean, so they're a venture firm, right?

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

That is specific to funding, uh, companies and giving them a, a leg

Tim Winkler:

into, uh, you know, defense industries.

Tim Winkler:

They, they kind of fund companies that are impacting defense

Tim Winkler:

and, and defense agencies.

Mike Gruen:

I, I

Thomas Horlacher:

think mostly cia.

Natalie Barrett:

Yeah.

Natalie Barrett:

I would augment that.

Natalie Barrett:

Right.

Natalie Barrett:

Well, mostly Intel agencies, so they're also connected to another

Natalie Barrett:

organization we haven't mentioned, which is I, APA Intelligence

Natalie Barrett:

Advanced Research Projects Agency.

Natalie Barrett:

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Barrett:

So, you know, I often encourage folks to apply to both, uh, submit ideas to both

Natalie Barrett:

of those broad agency announcements.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, you know, the, the broader you submit your concepts or your business plans,

Natalie Barrett:

the more likely you are to hear back.

Natalie Barrett:

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, and so take advantage of, of all of those.

Natalie Barrett:

You know, we mentioned a couple of the works.

Natalie Barrett:

There is an umbrella called Soft uh, defense Works.

Natalie Barrett:

If you go to the Defense Works website, you can sign up to get

Natalie Barrett:

access to all of the works and to get updates on when they might have

Natalie Barrett:

demonstration events or other events where they talk about their capability.

Natalie Barrett:

Are there opportunities?

Natalie Barrett:

And, and so just a piece about that, the opportunities through Defense works

Natalie Barrett:

are that they're often given funding by, uh, the Air Force or socom or some

Natalie Barrett:

other entity to work with a startup.

Natalie Barrett:

And through this OTA construct and these other transaction authorities,

Natalie Barrett:

you can actually get a ceiling on your contract, which allows you to,

Natalie Barrett:

uh, receive funding to that level.

Natalie Barrett:

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Barrett:

So anytime you have a contract or an ota, um, that definitely

Natalie Barrett:

gives you an advantage.

Natalie Barrett:

So, so definitely take the time, sign up for things like Defense Works.

Natalie Barrett:

The other one is N D I A, another great place where you can actually

Natalie Barrett:

meet people, um, and talk to them and make those human to human connections.

Tim Winkler:

Good stuff.

Tim Winkler:

I want to jump to the next topic on this, um, uh, that we

Tim Winkler:

are gonna try to cover here.

Tim Winkler:

So this was, um, centered around the importance of creating

Tim Winkler:

competition in the space.

Tim Winkler:

So there's a, a term called vendor lock, um, uh, is something that's

Tim Winkler:

been referenced in the industry.

Tim Winkler:

Jasmine, can you maybe expand on this and why this is, is vital, especially

Tim Winkler:

for, you know, commercial technology and, and startups that are in the space?

Jazmin Furtado:

Yeah.

Jazmin Furtado:

So to what I was mentioning before when we laying out the content, um,

Jazmin Furtado:

like the bigger background of the whole thing, I mean the DO D is huge, right?

Jazmin Furtado:

There are just so many use cases and there's, like I said, not

Jazmin Furtado:

one size fits all solution.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, what we see in the software realm is an opportunity to have multiple

Jazmin Furtado:

solutions to a problem in a way that.

Jazmin Furtado:

Is a little bit easier than before, um, is you don't have as high barrier

Jazmin Furtado:

to entry to enter into the space if you were more hardware centric.

Jazmin Furtado:

So we're looking at software, we're really looking for, um, more, um,

Jazmin Furtado:

modularity when it comes to our solutions.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's easier to break a problem up in, in theory when you're dealing with software.

Jazmin Furtado:

So when we're looking for solutions and for the dod, it's really a ripe place to

Jazmin Furtado:

find things that are, um, that are easily interoperable with other technologies.

Jazmin Furtado:

Things that you can plug in and out because mm-hmm.

Jazmin Furtado:

What we've seen in the past is when we are dealing with really

Jazmin Furtado:

hardware centric solutions, we're, we're stuck with a solution.

Jazmin Furtado:

We can't, you know, Replace something very easily.

Jazmin Furtado:

If we find that something's not working well for us with software, we can do that.

Jazmin Furtado:

So we really need competition, these small businesses at the table to be

Jazmin Furtado:

able to compete because they add to that, um, our, that they add to the

Jazmin Furtado:

environment and they allow us to have the best solutions out there.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, instead of just having to focus on like, you know, one vendor doing

Jazmin Furtado:

everything we can find the best of breed to make up our defense industrial base.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Well said.

Tim Winkler:

Um, there was a, a, a subtopic on this when we were kind of brainstorming, uh,

Tim Winkler:

that was also kind of going down the path of zero trust security model, so

Tim Winkler:

also known as zero trust architecture.

Tim Winkler:

Um, can you explain what that is and, and why?

Tim Winkler:

That's why that's so important.

Jazmin Furtado:

Yeah.

Jazmin Furtado:

So the concept of Zero Trust is that we create a, um, ecosystem of

Jazmin Furtado:

technologies and tools that can interop be interoperable with each other

Jazmin Furtado:

in a very secure way and easy way.

Jazmin Furtado:

It is to add to the simplicity of, um, the ecosystem.

Jazmin Furtado:

So if we have like a, if we have a ton, like a few big software systems,

Jazmin Furtado:

um, that we just, you know, dive into the system and that you can do a ton

Jazmin Furtado:

of stuff in this space, that's great.

Jazmin Furtado:

But if we try to break it up into pieces, it's hard to, uh, it's hard to

Jazmin Furtado:

deconstruct, it's hard to like, uh, Move, it's hard to move between different tools.

Jazmin Furtado:

What we want is the ability to log into our network in the, in the do o d

Jazmin Furtado:

log into a network and have access to all the tools available and have the

Jazmin Furtado:

authentication and security protocols in between each of these tools to

Jazmin Furtado:

easily navigate between each of them.

Jazmin Furtado:

And that makes up that zero trust model.

Jazmin Furtado:

So everything that's in the network is modular enough so that they can

Jazmin Furtado:

interact with every other, uh, system in the network in an easy, seamless way.

Jazmin Furtado:

So you don't need to log in 50 times to get access to your data and

Jazmin Furtado:

your data's not super siloed in, in like one location or another, and

Jazmin Furtado:

it's not difficult to access it.

Jazmin Furtado:

So the idea of Zero Trust is to create this ecosystem of easy access, easy

Jazmin Furtado:

interoperability in a secure way.

Jazmin Furtado:

Hmm.

Tim Winkler:

So, yeah, that, that was super clear for me.

Tim Winkler:

Mike, I know that you and I had kind of riffed on that briefly before as

Tim Winkler:

well, but you know, just coming from the commercial startup space, I mean,

Tim Winkler:

this is something that's pretty also like common knowledge on your, uh,

Tim Winkler:

you know, in that, in that world.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, it's hard for me to say

Mike Gruen:

common knowledge.

Mike Gruen:

I mean, my last company was a cybersecurity training company, so

Mike Gruen:

for me it feels very common knowledge.

Mike Gruen:

Sure.

Mike Gruen:

But we had, you know, uh, we had to do a lot of education about, uh,

Mike Gruen:

what, what zero trust means and how you, you know, this idea that like,

Mike Gruen:

you don't, it's a complex idea, I think, for people to, to get ahold of.

Mike Gruen:

Um, but we are seeing in the commercial space, there's lots of places.

Mike Gruen:

I think it's actually easier in some, like when you're at a startup, it's

Mike Gruen:

actually easier to start that way with this idea of like, A zero trust

Mike Gruen:

model where people are authenticating, but then you sort of, each system

Mike Gruen:

is responsible for its own security.

Mike Gruen:

There's not, you don't, and that's how you sort of build these things up.

Mike Gruen:

It's, it came up a lot in the pandemic when, like you went from, I think

Mike Gruen:

a good example for people who might get this is, um, when the pandemic

Mike Gruen:

hit and people started working from home, it started becoming a problem

Mike Gruen:

because now all these systems that were sort of theoretically secure

Mike Gruen:

because they're inside the company's network, now we're working from home.

Mike Gruen:

How do you give people access to those things?

Mike Gruen:

So it's really pushing a lot of the security to the edges.

Mike Gruen:

And so that it's not like this idea of like this sort of hardened

Mike Gruen:

outside perimeter, and once I'm inside, then I'm trusted and I

Mike Gruen:

don't have to authenticate again.

Mike Gruen:

It's really pushing it out so that all of the different systems

Mike Gruen:

are constantly challenging.

Mike Gruen:

It's, it's like this idea of like, we don't trust you, uh, and

Mike Gruen:

we're gonna constantly confirm that you are who you say you are.

Mike Gruen:

We're gonna constantly confirm that you have access to the

Mike Gruen:

things you have access to.

Mike Gruen:

But it's all done at the software side.

Mike Gruen:

It's not, it's not as, you know, as Jasmine saying, it's not we're gonna

Mike Gruen:

force you to log in all of the time.

Mike Gruen:

Um, there's gotta be a way to mm-hmm.

Mike Gruen:

To sort of authenticate once, but, um, pushing that all out

Mike Gruen:

and that's what allows people to work from home without a vpn.

Mike Gruen:

Um, and that's, you know, I think smaller companies, startups, um, so much is SaaS

Mike Gruen:

that it's actually, there's no difference between working in an office and

Mike Gruen:

working, uh, at home for a lot of places.

Mike Gruen:

We don't have, you know, we don't have a rack of servers in the,

Mike Gruen:

in the network closet anymore.

Mike Gruen:

Mm-hmm.

Mike Gruen:

Now we just have.

Mike Gruen:

Basically just networking gear, um, to provide internet to the office.

Mike Gruen:

Um, so that's sort of mm-hmm.

Mike Gruen:

Hopefully that helped a little

Tim Winkler:

bit.

Tim Winkler:

Um, but yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Mm-hmm.

Tim Winkler:

Cool.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Um, Nat, I think we kind of skipped over this too, but I, I do wanna, um,

Tim Winkler:

quickly backtrack because, you know, you work at John's Hopkins Applied Physics

Tim Winkler:

Lab and an area that, you know, you know, this is a university, um, that,

Tim Winkler:

uh, you is another, uh, outlet that we see, you know, partnering to innovate

Tim Winkler:

in, in the, in the defense space.

Tim Winkler:

Can you maybe, uh, just kind of quickly paint how that happens

Tim Winkler:

through, through that kind of outlet?

Tim Winkler:

Um, and name drop A couple of the big ones that are out there that

Tim Winkler:

are, are impacting in the space.

Natalie Barrett:

Sure, anytime that you can come across a university and team with

Natalie Barrett:

them, um, it's always a great opportunity.

Natalie Barrett:

Uh, Johns Hopkins applied physics lab.

Natalie Barrett:

You know, you look at the work that we do with nasa, we're always

Natalie Barrett:

working with many companies.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, you also look at what we're doing in, in the innovation spaces.

Natalie Barrett:

So, for example, um, one of the programs was an advanced prosthetics program, uh,

Natalie Barrett:

with the brain computer interface work.

Natalie Barrett:

And, and in that, that was a consortium of multiple companies and universities.

Natalie Barrett:

So the benefit of working with the university is that

Natalie Barrett:

they're very collaborative.

Natalie Barrett:

Their intent is to be collaborative.

Natalie Barrett:

Their invent, their intent is to really advance technology and not to compete

Natalie Barrett:

in the way that you traditionally think.

Natalie Barrett:

And so that's why people love to, to work with our national labs as well.

Natalie Barrett:

That's another great opportunity.

Natalie Barrett:

Sandia does that a lot.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, Lincoln Labs, m i t Lincoln Labs is another great opportunity.

Natalie Barrett:

They have many events that you can attend, um, that are open to the public.

Natalie Barrett:

And so, you know, anytime that, that you see a university, like a jpl, an apl,

Natalie Barrett:

um, Penn State is great at this as well.

Tim Winkler:

Virginia Tech, I think too, does, do, they have,

Thomas Horlacher:

Virginia Tech

Natalie Barrett:

has an a R l and so they'll release, we'll all release,

Natalie Barrett:

um, our own solicitations on occasion.

Natalie Barrett:

And so to be aware that those solicitations can also come and that's

Natalie Barrett:

an opportunity for you to work with sort of a bigger, more known entity in some

Natalie Barrett:

cases where there's gonna be full trust.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, you know, the, the labs have.

Natalie Barrett:

Thousands, if not millions of NDAs.

Natalie Barrett:

And, and that's because they are, they're extremely well trusted in the

Natalie Barrett:

community to only advance technology.

Natalie Barrett:

They're never, they know, they are known entities to protect your ip.

Thomas Horlacher:

Hmm.

Tim Winkler:

But it is an interesting thought of, um, you

Tim Winkler:

know, if you're just trying to get your foot in the door, right?

Tim Winkler:

Say you're an alumni of, of Virginia Tech, you know, this could be a great

Tim Winkler:

outlet for you to kind of like, you know, use that to your advantage and just,

Tim Winkler:

you know, help to get a conversation started or, or get connected with

Tim Winkler:

somebody who maybe is, is connected.

Tim Winkler:

Um, you know, as far as networking goes, I mean, it's, it's truly,

Tim Winkler:

it's just super important.

Tim Winkler:

Um, if you have no expertise or no, no reach, uh, into the space, you know,

Tim Winkler:

just kind of like leaning into something that gives you a common connection

Tim Winkler:

is something we always recommend.

Tim Winkler:

Um, so I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna, uh, kind of wrap with a couple of a, a

Tim Winkler:

question for each of you, and I'm gonna paint this kind of picture and, and

Tim Winkler:

we'll, you know, some of this might be a little bit of a repeat of some of the

Tim Winkler:

things we covered, but we'll, we'll see if we can summarize the answer briefly.

Tim Winkler:

So I'll, Natalie, I'm gonna start with you and let's pretend that,

Tim Winkler:

you know, you're kind of set up, uh, uh, at a booth, at a defense.

Tim Winkler:

Tech, career fair, and Mike and I approach you as candidates.

Tim Winkler:

Mike's a software engineer commercial space for years.

Tim Winkler:

I'm a product manager in the commercial space.

Tim Winkler:

And, and we both approach you and, and we say, you know, we're, we're

Tim Winkler:

brand new to the defense space.

Tim Winkler:

You know, we've, uh, maybe we've, maybe we've, uh, fallen victim

Tim Winkler:

to a layoff or something in the commercial side, and we wanna, we

Tim Winkler:

wanna break into the defense space.

Tim Winkler:

It seems like maybe there's, there's some stability here.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, we have no idea where to start in pursuing opportunities.

Tim Winkler:

You know, what would you recommend to us?

Tim Winkler:

And, and maybe how to navigate a, uh, you know, a career

Tim Winkler:

opportunity in, in, in that space.

Tim Winkler:

Um, again, bit loaded, uh, but, you know, what would you say to us, you know, to,

Tim Winkler:

to kind of just get the ideas flowing?

Tim Winkler:

Um, yeah,

Natalie Barrett:

I would, I would encourage you to

Natalie Barrett:

look at three organizations first, um, to go look at nsf.

Natalie Barrett:

We haven't mentioned.

Natalie Barrett:

The, the National Science Foundation, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency

Natalie Barrett:

are the, are really two of the tops in addition to US Special Operations Command.

Natalie Barrett:

All three have very broad, broad agency announcements and

Natalie Barrett:

they want to hear your ideas.

Natalie Barrett:

The nice thing about those three organizations is that, that they

Natalie Barrett:

are all interconnected across D O D, the IC doe, um, and they actually

Natalie Barrett:

share technologies across themselves.

Natalie Barrett:

You know, certainly look at those bas.

Natalie Barrett:

I would also say go to their events.

Natalie Barrett:

They all host events.

Natalie Barrett:

You know, the more time you can get face-to-face with people,

Natalie Barrett:

again, I love N D I A because they ha they bring people to you.

Natalie Barrett:

You just sign up and you go.

Natalie Barrett:

But then whenever you can team with a university, it's a safe place to start.

Natalie Barrett:

Especially if you can find a national lab or a university affiliated

Natalie Barrett:

research center, which is what, like Maryland, Arles and apl, L H U A P L.

Natalie Barrett:

These are organizations whose intent is really to advance

Natalie Barrett:

innovation in a trusted way, um, to enable the best for the country.

Natalie Barrett:

So that's what I would recommend.

Natalie Barrett:

I also recommend keeping the conversation going with folks like

Natalie Barrett:

myself as you, as you meet people who are in the know, you know, we're all

Natalie Barrett:

working to the same goal, to protect the nation, to protect our people.

Mike Gruen:

Cool.

Mike Gruen:

I think one of the agencies, you men or one of the departments, uh, that

Mike Gruen:

you mentioned, uh, that first came up was, uh, d o e Department of Energy.

Mike Gruen:

I think people forget how much of their mission is around security as well.

Mike Gruen:

Mm-hmm.

Mike Gruen:

They have some, uh, some systems that they need secured.

Mike Gruen:

So, um, another good one up there with the rest of them to, to

Tim Winkler:

look at.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Good point.

Tim Winkler:

All right.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, I'll, I'll, I'll flip this over to Jasmine too.

Tim Winkler:

So, um, a little, little bit of a, a similar scenario here, but instead of

Tim Winkler:

Mike and I being, you know, candidates looking for, for new roles, uh, let's

Tim Winkler:

just say we're co-founders, uh, of a cyber product, um, and a startup.

Tim Winkler:

And primarily we've been working with, you know, larger com, commercial Fortune

Tim Winkler:

500 s, uh, and now we're trying to pivot, you know, from a little bit outside of

Tim Winkler:

all commercial in trying to get our, our products positioned to, to serve defense.

Tim Winkler:

How might me, how might Mike and I wanna navigate these waters?

Tim Winkler:

Like what kind of options are out there for us?

Jazmin Furtado:

Yeah.

Jazmin Furtado:

Well first I would commend you for wanting to enter into the dance space.

Jazmin Furtado:

It is not, it is not for

Tim Winkler:

the, it was Mike's idea

Thomas Horlacher:

certainly wasn't,

Jazmin Furtado:

go on.

Jazmin Furtado:

Sorry.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's not for the, but the, the mission is so important and we need people

Jazmin Furtado:

like you to be in this space and add our, to our competitive advantage.

Jazmin Furtado:

Uh, I would say that they're, you know, the DOD is really big.

Jazmin Furtado:

What's great is that a lot of these units are, they have websites

Jazmin Furtado:

that you can go to to learn more about, like the mission space.

Jazmin Furtado:

I mean, Wikipedia is also a place as well to like chart, try to,

Jazmin Furtado:

um, navigate the, the, the d o d.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's, it's, it's a lot to cover, but I would say really know your value

Jazmin Furtado:

proposition and own how it could be dual use of how it can, you know, how

Jazmin Furtado:

it's obviously serving your clientele now, but how it could be used in

Jazmin Furtado:

the D O D and that, you know, reach out to people in the D O D and you

Jazmin Furtado:

know, everyone knows other people.

Jazmin Furtado:

So, um, be get comfortable getting to know the people

Jazmin Furtado:

within the Department of Defense.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, there's so much opportunity that you may not even know.

Jazmin Furtado:

I mean, we mentioned a few in the, in the, uh, in the call, so we talked

Jazmin Furtado:

about, you know, the small business, innovative research, like the c r process.

Jazmin Furtado:

Looking at that, you can, you tell all these different agencies, look

Jazmin Furtado:

at those events that they have going on and their calls, um, like they

Jazmin Furtado:

will post what they're looking for.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, these, uh, Organizations are constantly posting the needs

Jazmin Furtado:

of the Department of Defense.

Jazmin Furtado:

So just take a look on there, see if anything, you know, if there's

Jazmin Furtado:

any gaps that you can see off of those sites that you can fill.

Jazmin Furtado:

But there's also like units that just have like front doors.

Jazmin Furtado:

Like they just will have, like I know Space Systems Command has just a front

Jazmin Furtado:

door process for all small businesses that want to work with the Space Force.

Jazmin Furtado:

So there's a lot of different processes.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's just a matter of just reaching out to someone, um, LinkedIn find someone mm-hmm.

Jazmin Furtado:

That you think is in a position that resonates with your company or is in a

Jazmin Furtado:

unit that's related to, um, your company.

Jazmin Furtado:

So, um, network, reach out.

Jazmin Furtado:

I mean, we're, we're a big organization, but we all know

Jazmin Furtado:

each other in one way or another.

Jazmin Furtado:

So, um, really excited for you to be in this space and, uh,

Jazmin Furtado:

look forward to having you.

Tim Winkler:

Good stuff.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah, it's so true.

Tim Winkler:

I mean, you know, so just in full transparency as well, you know, we, you

Tim Winkler:

know, we were primarily just helping commercial startups, um, you know,

Tim Winkler:

with a lot of talent initiatives, uh, for years and in the last seven, eight

Tim Winkler:

months, you know, just kind of seeing a little bit of the instability in the

Tim Winkler:

commercial startup space, you know, you know, as a founder I was like,

Tim Winkler:

look, we need to protect ourselves.

Tim Winkler:

We're, we're gonna dive into some of this defense work.

Tim Winkler:

And so what I started doing, I started to, one, use our community as a, as a

Tim Winkler:

tool to, to create more awareness and make connections and, and start to, you

Tim Winkler:

know, meet folks like you, like you all.

Tim Winkler:

But then two, I just, I just cold email darpa, uh, directly and it

Tim Winkler:

was actually their, um, e emerging, um, entrepreneurship initiatives.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, subdivision and just kind of let them know like, this is how we're innovating

Tim Winkler:

and helping on the commercial side.

Tim Winkler:

I think we could really help some of those companies that are, that are,

Tim Winkler:

uh, you know, you're breeding, uh, outta darpa, uh, and would love to

Tim Winkler:

just kind of explore a conversation.

Tim Winkler:

And they got, I got a response fairly quickly.

Tim Winkler:

I was surprised.

Tim Winkler:

Um, scheduling the first discussion has been a little bit of a, a

Tim Winkler:

snafu, but we're getting there.

Tim Winkler:

Um, but I will say like, they're open and, and there is a, a want, I think

Tim Winkler:

that's the theme I want to communicate is that, uh, there is a clearly a,

Tim Winkler:

a known like gap that needs to be fixed and they're open to fixing that.

Tim Winkler:

So, um, now is a great time to take that step and, um, yeah, just, you know, it

Tim Winkler:

might be uncomfortable cause you don't know enough about it, but, um, everybody

Tim Winkler:

seems very helpful in like wanting to educate because they know that.

Tim Winkler:

It's for the greater good for a country.

Tim Winkler:

Um, so, um, I'm going to close with that.

Tim Winkler:

I think this was helpful.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, I think we've, we've got a couple of other episodes that

Tim Winkler:

we're gonna build on this.

Tim Winkler:

I'm excited to bring some other perspectives into the mix that maybe

Tim Winkler:

coming from like digital consultancies that are, you know, helping build,

Tim Winkler:

you know, big software projects for, uh, in the federal space too.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, we talked a lot about defense on this one.

Tim Winkler:

Um, and, and I think this is a, a hairy one.

Tim Winkler:

This is a, a pretty tricky one to navigate, but this is helpful to,

Tim Winkler:

to at least get the, um, yeah, the initial blocks, uh, going.

Tim Winkler:

Um, alright, so, uh, a segment that I, I love, um, we're, we're gonna jump

Tim Winkler:

into, this is the five second scramble.

Tim Winkler:

So, um, we're not gonna be super brutal on you all.

Tim Winkler:

We don't have like a buzzer where we're gonna buzz you if you exceed

Tim Winkler:

your five seconds to, to answer.

Tim Winkler:

Um, but try to keep it brief, uh, if possible, uh, it'll be

Tim Winkler:

a mix of, uh, of wrapped fire.

Tim Winkler:

Business and, and some personal, uh, Natalie, we're gonna start with, um, with

Tim Winkler:

you and then Jasmine, we'll get to you.

Tim Winkler:

Um, we ready?

Tim Winkler:

Ready.

Tim Winkler:

All right, here we go.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, what problems are you solving at John's Hopkins?

Tim Winkler:

Applied Physics Lab.

Tim Winkler:

I.

Natalie Barrett:

So we're solving problems, um, related to big data for

Natalie Barrett:

public health information, trying to make sure that all war fighters as

Natalie Barrett:

they transition outta the military, have their entire personal health

Natalie Barrett:

information, um, uh, data set.

Natalie Barrett:

And we are trying to make sure that as they transition, they transition

Natalie Barrett:

well to other big data efforts, um, in health places like Epic.

Natalie Barrett:

You think about MyChart, you know, any, any, uh, war fighter as a

Natalie Barrett:

transition that should transition?

Natalie Barrett:

Well, we also think about what the insights are that you could gather

Natalie Barrett:

if you actually had your entire personal health information data set.

Natalie Barrett:

Uh, we talk about phi, personal health information, but how many of us actually

Natalie Barrett:

have our own phi or a copy of it?

Natalie Barrett:

Um, so I think a great place to start is with the war fighters.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, the DOD does have those pieces of information, and it's a great

Natalie Barrett:

environment to help move the nation to a place where, uh, or to a precedent

Natalie Barrett:

of each individual having a copy of their own personal health information.

Tim Winkler:

What, what type of technologist thrives,

Tim Winkler:

um, in your environment?

Natalie Barrett:

I love that question.

Natalie Barrett:

I would say all types of technologists and, and engineers.

Natalie Barrett:

We need all kinds in this space, which is why Jasmine said like,

Natalie Barrett:

if you're an engineer, if you're an innovator, we just need to,

Tim Winkler:

what professional advice would you give your younger self?

Tim Winkler:

Just starting your career?

Thomas Horlacher:

Get your

Natalie Barrett:

PhD as soon as you graduate.

Natalie Barrett:

Don't delay in education.

Tim Winkler:

Wow, that's loaded.

Tim Winkler:

All right.

Tim Winkler:

Um, what do you love most about yourself?

Tim Winkler:

Uh,

Natalie Barrett:

I love that I can laugh at myself.

Tim Winkler:

That's great quality.

Tim Winkler:

What's your favorite type of bagel?

Natalie Barrett:

An everything bagel.

Natalie Barrett:

Cuz I can never choose.

Natalie Barrett:

I just want it all.

Tim Winkler:

That's the right answer.

Tim Winkler:

Um, what is the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed?

Tim Winkler:

I

Thomas Horlacher:

think in the

Natalie Barrett:

Mc hammer pants, uh, when I was little, um, my grandmother

Natalie Barrett:

made me mc hammer pants with a jumpsuit.

Natalie Barrett:

Like, so when those came together, that was just, wow.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, I think we renamed them the Piaz Palazzo pants.

Natalie Barrett:

Not any better.

Tim Winkler:

I've got a, I got a good visual.

Tim Winkler:

Um, uh, what is a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Thomas Horlacher:

Um,

Natalie Barrett:

my favorite is Beyond Rhetoric.

Natalie Barrett:

It is an organization that works with our imprisoned youth, um,

Natalie Barrett:

to help make sure that they seem, they are, um, they're seen and

Tim Winkler:

heard.

Tim Winkler:

Wow, that's really cool.

Tim Winkler:

What was the name of it?

Tim Winkler:

The organization?

Thomas Horlacher:

Yeah.

Thomas Horlacher:

It's

Natalie Barrett:

called Beyond Rhetoric.

Tim Winkler:

Okay, cool.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah, we'll, we'll include that in the, the show nights.

Tim Winkler:

I like that.

Tim Winkler:

Um, do you believe there's life on other planets?

Natalie Barrett:

Absolutely.

Natalie Barrett:

How could there not be?

Natalie Barrett:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

I had a feeling that was gonna be your answer.

Tim Winkler:

Um, what is the number one country that you would recommend everyone

Tim Winkler:

travel to once in their life?

Thomas Horlacher:

I think we

Natalie Barrett:

should all make it to Australia, uh, at least once

Natalie Barrett:

to see Sydney and to appreciate the diversity of that environment.

Natalie Barrett:

I think the way that they treat their indigenous population

Natalie Barrett:

is unique and highly valuable.

Natalie Barrett:

Um, so definitely put that on your bucket

Tim Winkler:

list.

Tim Winkler:

Cool.

Tim Winkler:

All right.

Tim Winkler:

Well done.

Tim Winkler:

You passed with flying colors.

Tim Winkler:

That was great.

Tim Winkler:

Um, Jasmine, you've got some big shoes to fill here.

Tim Winkler:

Oh, wait, do I get the same questions?

Tim Winkler:

Oh, no, they're completely different.

Tim Winkler:

If you, in case you were taking notes, I was like,

Thomas Horlacher:

okay.

Jazmin Furtado:

I was hoping that it'd be similar.

Jazmin Furtado:

I was like, great, what would I do?

Jazmin Furtado:

Okay.

Jazmin Furtado:

All right.

Jazmin Furtado:

There's some overlap.

Tim Winkler:

Some overlap.

Tim Winkler:

Okay.

Tim Winkler:

We'll see.

Tim Winkler:

Okay.

Tim Winkler:

All right.

Tim Winkler:

Um, what problems are you solving at Space Force?

Jazmin Furtado:

So right now there's a really big digital

Jazmin Furtado:

innovation push in Space Force.

Jazmin Furtado:

We have a ton of data and we're trying to figure out how to make that easily

Jazmin Furtado:

accessible, um, to everyone in the Space Force, trying to make things as open

Jazmin Furtado:

as possible and secure as possible.

Jazmin Furtado:

So it's the lifelong, uh, challenge of bringing data together so that you

Jazmin Furtado:

could disseminate it out very easily.

Jazmin Furtado:

So it's a big challenge, um, and it's a really exciting time for the Space Force.

Tim Winkler:

Awesome.

Tim Winkler:

What would you say is one of the biggest challenges that fa, that

Tim Winkler:startup founders will face in:Thomas Horlacher:

Oh,

Tim Winkler:

I just got anxiety.

Tim Winkler:

I don't know about you.

Tim Winkler:

There's so many.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Oh my

Jazmin Furtado:

gosh.

Jazmin Furtado:

Well, one that's like top of mind for me is dis differentiating yourself in this

Jazmin Furtado:

like age, just budding age of AI and generative AI that we find ourselves in.

Jazmin Furtado:

Uh, if there's gonna be a real big distinction between companies that really

Jazmin Furtado:

embrace that in companies that don't.

Jazmin Furtado:

So that's, I would say the biggest challenge is figuring out how to

Jazmin Furtado:

embrace those technologies and integrate 'em into your product.

Tim Winkler:

Mm-hmm.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Well said.

Tim Winkler:

Um, and I like that it wasn't just the, the layup answer.

Tim Winkler:

I, I was thinking, uh, c access to capital as well.

Tim Winkler:

Um, but uh, I think that's, uh, that can go without saying at this point.

Tim Winkler:

Um, what, um, what is your favorite aspect of working, uh, with Space Force?

Jazmin Furtado:

My favorite aspect is the, the potential.

Jazmin Furtado:

And it's just so exciting.

Jazmin Furtado:

There's so much to be done.

Jazmin Furtado:

And it's this like area, right?

Jazmin Furtado:

It's this place, the final frontier situation.

Jazmin Furtado:

Mm-hmm.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's just such deciding place to be.

Jazmin Furtado:

So I just love that there's a lot of opportunity and there's, there's

Jazmin Furtado:

like no precedence for what a space force is supposed to look like.

Jazmin Furtado:

So that is the most exciting piece.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's just the, the novelty

Tim Winkler:

of it all.

Tim Winkler:

That's so cool.

Tim Winkler:

I, I remember when it first came out too, and people were

Tim Winkler:

like, space force, what is this?

Tim Winkler:

You know, like, uh, and now I think people are like, damn, that's cool.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Everyone

Jazmin Furtado:

that's a part of it can define what it means.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

All right.

Tim Winkler:

Um, what is a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Jazmin Furtado:

I have, um, I'm a co-founder of my own

Jazmin Furtado:

nonprofit, uh, called Vesper.

Jazmin Furtado:

We provide educational support to, um, conflict areas in

Jazmin Furtado:

the Philippines, Ethiopia.

Jazmin Furtado:

So that's one that's near and dear.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's, uh, something that I started when I was in college, uh, because

Jazmin Furtado:

there was a huge typhoon that hit the Philippines, typhoon Yolanda, and

Jazmin Furtado:

it devastated so many of the smaller areas and places that were really

Jazmin Furtado:

hard to get to for multiple reasons.

Jazmin Furtado:

So with my nonprofit, I worked to remove some of those barriers to

Jazmin Furtado:

get educational support to those areas that are, uh, hit by conflict,

Jazmin Furtado:

whether that be environmental or with

Tim Winkler:

people.

Tim Winkler:

Wow.

Tim Winkler:

That's awesome.

Tim Winkler:

What, what was the name of it again?

Tim Winkler:

So, we'll, we'll make sure we include that Vesper.

Tim Winkler:

Very neat.

Tim Winkler:

All right.

Tim Winkler:

This is a, uh, a very lighthearted transition here.

Tim Winkler:

So what is your favorite cereal?

Tim Winkler:

Pretty pebbles.

Tim Winkler:

Oh, strong.

Tim Winkler:

Um, would you rather vacation on, on the moon or, or on Mars?

Thomas Horlacher:

Ooh,

Jazmin Furtado:

I think on Mars it seems a little warmer just cause.

Tim Winkler:

Awesome.

Tim Winkler:

Um, do you have a celebrity doppelganger?

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, a celebrity DFO Kinger is, oh, Sarah Hyland.

Jazmin Furtado:

Okay.

Jazmin Furtado:

I don't, that's, I can't, I can't think of any other than

Tim Winkler:

that.

Tim Winkler:

Tim Google, Sarah Hyland.

Tim Winkler:

Um, But yes.

Tim Winkler:

I will Google that later, but, we'll, yeah.

Tim Winkler:

We'll take your word for it.

Tim Winkler:

Um, do you have any phobias or irrational fears?

Jazmin Furtado:

Yes.

Jazmin Furtado:

Um, I have a phobia of clavicles.

Jazmin Furtado:

Hmm.

Jazmin Furtado:

I, I, I don't like feeling things like touching my clavicle.

Jazmin Furtado:

I don't like seeing, like, exposed cla.

Jazmin Furtado:

I have a thing with clavicles.

Jazmin Furtado:

It's interesting.

Jazmin Furtado:

It is very irrational and very odd.

Tim Winkler:

Um, okay.

Tim Winkler:

Another lighthearted transition.

Tim Winkler:

Would you rather have a pet dragon or a pet unicorn?

Tim Winkler:

A pet

Jazmin Furtado:

dragon.

Tim Winkler:

Cool.

Tim Winkler:

That, that's just so cool.

Tim Winkler:

It is cool.

Tim Winkler:

What is your favorite Disney character?

Jazmin Furtado:

Oh my gosh.

Jazmin Furtado:

I was just at Disneyland yesterday.

Thomas Horlacher:

Um, oh no, that is hard.

Jazmin Furtado:

That is very hard.

Jazmin Furtado:

I'm thinking of Moana right now.

Tim Winkler:

Oh, nice.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

Great soundtrack too.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah, right.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah.

Tim Winkler:

I gotta ask the room.

Tim Winkler:

Nat, what's yours?

Tim Winkler:

Do you have a favorite Disney character?

Thomas Horlacher:

Um,

Natalie Barrett:

I don't, I don't know either.

Natalie Barrett:

I was thinking the Girl in Brave, but I don't know her name.

Natalie Barrett:

Okay.

Natalie Barrett:

I think that's a great, a great

Tim Winkler:

character.

Tim Winkler:

Oh, it looks like Thomas.

Tim Winkler:

Just let us know.

Tim Winkler:

Oh, hey, her name is

Thomas Horlacher:

Marita.

Thomas Horlacher:

I

Tim Winkler:

don't think so.

Tim Winkler:

Oh, that's maybe his.

Tim Winkler:

Oh, that's

Natalie Barrett:

yours.

Natalie Barrett:

Okay.

Tim Winkler:

I mean, I, I, Mike, what about you?

Tim Winkler:

I mean,

Mike Gruen:

I'd have to cheat cuz uh, now that Disney owns,

Mike Gruen:

uh, star Wars Orhan Solo.

Tim Winkler:

Okay.

Tim Winkler:

Yeah, that's pretty, that's a good answer.

Tim Winkler:

That's a pro, that's a pro answer cuz you heard this before is before

Thomas Horlacher:

know.

Thomas Horlacher:

I was gonna say that's why almost

Tim Winkler:

is it really?

Mike Gruen:

I mean it's not, it's, yes, I have heard it before,

Mike Gruen:

but I'm not a big Disney like the other, the Disney cartoons.

Mike Gruen:

The other Disney properties, uh, fan.

Mike Gruen:

So I know.

Jazmin Furtado:

Is that like OG Disney?

Jazmin Furtado:

That's not

Thomas Horlacher:

All

Tim Winkler:

right.

Tim Winkler:

So it is Marita or it is Marita.

Tim Winkler:

Yep.

Tim Winkler:

All right.

Thomas Horlacher:

Cool.

Thomas Horlacher:

All.

Natalie Barrett:

See, I'm super detail oriented, just clearly, you know, love the

Tim Winkler:

details.

Tim Winkler:

And so while we have a producer that just fact checks everybody,

Tim Winkler:

make sure to make sure.

Tim Winkler:

So good.

Tim Winkler:

Um, alright y'all, this was, this was a blast.

Tim Winkler:

Thank you so much for, for, uh, joining us and, and being great guest.

Tim Winkler:

And, um, yeah, we look forward to, uh, yeah, building more awareness

Tim Winkler:

on how to best, you know, marry commercial tech and, and defense.

Tim Winkler:

Uh, so I just wanted to thank you both for, for hanging

Tim Winkler:

out with us on the hat pad.

Tim Winkler:

Appreciate it.

Natalie Barrett:

Thank you.

Natalie Barrett:

So important.

Natalie Barrett:

Thanks

Thomas Horlacher:

so much.

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