Graduating from Set-Asides in Government Contracting: The Path to Sustainable Success | The Pair Program Ep56

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

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a front row seat to candid conversations

with tech leaders from the startup world.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler,

the creator of hatchpad, and

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I'm your other host, Mike Ruin.

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Join us each episode as we bring

together two guests to dissect topics

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at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

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Hello, everyone, and welcome back.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler,

alongside my cohost, Mike Gruen.

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Mike, uh, so before we, we dive in today's

topic, I got a, a fun little fact, uh,

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that, that plays into today's topic.

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So, uh, did you know that the

term graduating originally

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meant stepping forward in Latin?

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No, I did not.

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I

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Mike Gruen: was totally prepared for

you to ask me about UAPs and UFOs.

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I was not prepared for this.

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Tim Winkler: So now you're going to

need to answer a more serious question.

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So, um, you know, we're, we're,

we're talking about the world of

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federal contracting, transitioning,

stepping forward, uh, growth.

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What would you say is one of the,

the, the more significant transitions

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you've had to navigate in your career?

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Oof.

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Mike Gruen: Um, that's a good one.

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I mean, certainly the most significant

was stepping from being an I.

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C.

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to being a manager, um, and I had, uh,

it was a, like, there were a couple

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opportunities along the way where I

did get into management, but probably

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the one that stuck was where I moved

into a role where the company had the

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support necessary to give me, like, The

support as a new manager on what man,

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like what good management looks like.

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I had a team lead who was awesome.

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I had an engineering team that

was great and that, um, and I

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couldn't do what they were doing.

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So it really was a great opportunity, uh,

sort of forced me to really learn how to

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manage people, uh, as opposed to previous

sort of steps along that path where me

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sort of leading people where I could do

the work that I was asking them to do.

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It was a little bit harder, um,

of a transition, but yeah, I think

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that first real Matt, like that real

management position was, uh, it's

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probably the biggest career transition

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Tim Winkler: for me.

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Nice.

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Yeah, I think that's probably,

I think we've run an episode

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on that at one point, but, uh,

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Mike Gruen: yeah,

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Tim Winkler: I think about, I think

about my, my career and that, and the

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answer to that question, I'd say the.

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There's two that really stand out, but,

you know, that first one from making

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the leap from being a, you know, a

corporate kind of W2 employee to, you

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know, running a consult, but, you know,

an independent consulting business, it was

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one interesting transition, you're kind

of just taking a little, a little bit of

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a leap of faith, but then that transition

from, um, You know, independent consulting

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to kind of formally starting a business,

I'd say, and hiring your first employee.

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I was going to say hiring

your first employee probably

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Mike Gruen: was a big one.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, that was, you know,

you've got to have a stable little

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client list before you take that.

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That next step, but, um, uh, but yeah,

um, well, yeah, it's gonna kind of play

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into, uh, you know, a little bit of,

you know, how these companies at large

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are graduating to the next stage and,

uh, I'll, I'll bring it back into that.

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Uh, at this point.

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So today we, you know, we are going to

be, uh, tackling, uh, a critical phase

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for businesses that are operating in

the federal contracting sector that are

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transitioning from small business set

asides to standing alone in the full and

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open market, uh, this move is, you know,

it's like stepping into the big leagues,

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uh, there's quite a bit more competition.

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The stakes are higher than ever.

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Uh, and so joining us to unpack

this are two, uh, seasoned, uh,

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you know, executive leaders here.

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Uh, we've got Rolf Holman, uh, chief

strategy officer at Falconwood.

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Uh, Rolf brings over 30 years

of global IT experience.

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He's built and developed teams across

defense and security government

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and a few other industries.

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And most notably, you know, Rolfe

has helped Falconwood make the

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transition from small business to

full and open, uh, not too long ago.

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Uh, and alongside Rolfe, we have Greg

Schaub, uh, CFO at Anika Systems.

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Greg's a senior finance executive

bringing, uh, analytical, innovative

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approach to achieving long term growth,

profitability, and operational soundness.

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Greg has over two decades in

government contracting as well as

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a healthy blend of M& A experience.

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In the last six years, he's facilitated

five acquisitions, one spinoff and

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numerous other acquisition evaluations.

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And then most relevant to this

conversation, Greg joined Anika Systems,

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uh, this year to help evaluate the

companies they're planning to graduate

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from small business status and heading

into full and open competition.

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So Rolf and Greg, thank you both for

joining us on today's conversation.

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Good to be here.

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Greg Schaub: Thank you for having us.

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Tim Winkler: All right.

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So before we dive in, uh, let's warm up

with our favorite segment, pair me up.

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Uh, Mike, you always tee us off here.

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What do you, what do you got for us today?

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So,

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Mike Gruen: uh, I had a friend

come, uh, visit from out of town

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and, uh, we used to work together.

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We used to go to a barbecue place in

Baltimore all the time that had this

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thing called the barbecue Sunday.

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Um, and, uh, so, so my pairing is, uh,

barbeque and glasses, but it's like

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barbeque served in a glass, uh, it's

just all mushed together, so you have the

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barbeque, you have the beans, you have

the, um, coleslaw, and then a pickle, uh,

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the, the Barbecue sundae had the pickle,

like, sticking out the top like a straw.

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There's a place not far from me that

has, uh, they call it a, uh, a jar b

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que, and it's the exact same thing.

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It's a mason jar, but it's like the,

it's a glass that you drink out of, but

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they put, they just jam all of the stuff

in there, and it sounds disgusting,

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like, people are always like, that

sounds gross, like, why, I don't want

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all my food mixed, but it is delicious.

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Um, so that's my, Uh, my pairing

is just jamming barbecue into a

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glass that sounds, uh, kind of

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Tim Winkler: odd and amazing

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Mike Gruen: at the same time.

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It is so amazing.

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Uh,

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Tim Winkler: but

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Mike Gruen: yeah,

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Tim Winkler: same thing.

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It's just barbecue.

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I got to ask Rolf, cause you know,

Rolf, you're a Texan, what's, uh,

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have you heard of this before?

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Has this ever been something that you've,

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Rolf Holman: well, it's nothing that

I've actually heard of before, but,

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uh, what, what I would relate it

to is the, uh, mashed potato bar.

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That was at many different, uh, proms

and cotillion events in Texas that

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you would expect to have, uh, desserts

instead they had mashed potato bars,

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and you start with mashed potatoes,

and then anything you like in your

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mashed potatoes, you'd serve in.

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Oh, no, that sounds fantastic.

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Sounds like

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Mike Gruen: a great pairing.

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The that is the

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Rolf Holman: cheese grits.

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Also,

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Tim Winkler: man, it's always, it's

always challenging having these episodes

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recorded pre dinner because then I'm

starving and everything sounds delicious.

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But, um, Mike, you'll

have to share that, that.

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That spot with me off, offline.

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Cause it sounds like a cool spot.

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Um, all right, good stuff.

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I'm going to, uh, I'm going to throw

something out there for my wife, actually.

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She's the one that actually

came up with this pairing.

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So I got to give her the credit.

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Uh, my parent today is Trader Joe's the

grocery store and seasonal selections.

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Uh, so, you know, the holidays are

upon us and, you know, folks, this

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time of year, always kind of stock

stocking up on some sort of seasonal.

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Food and drink.

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And if you're looking for the best grocery

store, I'd say best grocery store that

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caters to like seasonal selections,

then Trader Joe's is, is the one.

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Um, you know, if you're fortunate to have

one in your area, I know that they're

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not all across the country, uh, but now

is the time to kind of take advantage

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of that for, for their food and drink.

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So they've got even, uh, they have like

bloggers that will go out and kind of

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write through, you know, ranking the

best, like Trader Joe's Christmas items.

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So having just, you know, gone there and

picking up some, some items, I'm going to

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rattle them off for our listeners here.

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Uh, peppermint flavored mini

ice cream cones are amazing.

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Uh, the winter wassail punch,

really good, even better if you

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throw a little bourbon in it.

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Uh, German ice gingerbread, really good.

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And then most recently, uh, I'm not the

most proud of, but probably put down

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about a half of this massive tin of this.

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It's called Jingle Jangle Holiday

Mix Candy Treats, which is just

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these chocolate covered Like

popcorn, pretzels, Reese's cups

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and everything else in between.

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So, uh, all that said, um, you

know, check out Trader Joe's

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for the seasonal food and drink.

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So when did

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Mike Gruen: we sign that,

uh, contract with them?

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Yeah, no, they're not a sponsor,

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Tim Winkler: not a sponsorship,

not a plug, just a fan.

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Um, but it's not just on

Christmas time either.

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You know, all throughout the year,

they've got you, they've got you covered.

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So, uh, that is my pairing for today.

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Um, and I will pass it over at

this point to, uh, our guests.

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So Greg, how about a brief

intro and your pairing?

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Greg Schaub: All right.

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So, yeah, I mean, you, you kind of

hit the nail on the head earlier.

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I'm Greg Schaub.

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Um, you know, been in this GovCon

industry for, you know, 20 some

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years doing all types of different

financial, you know, you know, support.

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Items from pricing to FPNA

now CFO for a few companies.

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So, uh, in terms of the pairings,

um, you know, I was going to go

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something more traditional, but I've

been inspired listening to your guys,

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uh, Examples, and this is going to

be, you know, a weird one, maybe,

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or maybe you guys have heard of it.

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It's, um, hot dogs with

jalapeno cream cheese.

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Mike Gruen: I've not heard it.

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It is now on my list.

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Greg Schaub: And, um, I mean, most

people probably already think hot

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dogs are disgusting and you throw,

you know, jalapeno cream cheese

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on it and you've just completely.

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You know, ruined a meal, but, um, I

discovered this actually out in Seattle.

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So, you know, you hear about all these

big cities with their, their hot dogs, the

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Chicago hot dog, New York style hot dogs.

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And they had this thing called the

Seattle hot dog, the Seattle dog.

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And I asked what it was and they

said, well, it's, it's basically a

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hot dog with onions and cream cheese.

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And I was like, well, I like hot dogs.

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So I'm going to try this,

um, just for the sake of it.

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Um, and it was actually pretty decent.

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And I, you know, played

around with it a little bit.

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Found, you know, I liked

bagels with jalapeno cream

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cheese, the ogo, uh, bagels.

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So I tried it on my hotdog

one time and it was amazing.

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Wow.

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That's, um, give it a go.

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You may, you may find a,

you may find you like it.

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It works on any type of bratwurst

or Italian sausage, anything.

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I

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Mike Gruen: mean, that's a pro tip.

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I like hot dogs.

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I like cream cheese.

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I like jalapenos.

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I don't see how this doesn't work.

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Yeah, this is a

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Tim Winkler: perfect pairing.

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A match made in heaven.

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This is.

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Appreciate it.

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Glad you went out on a limb

with a non traditional.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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We're keeping with a lot

of food traditions here.

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You know, can we complete

it here with Rolf?

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Rolf, quick intro and your pairing.

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Rolf Holman: So, Rolf Holman, I am Chief

Strategy Officer here at Falconwood.

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I spent most of my 30 plus years in the IT

business working for Fortune 50 companies.

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Um, not to bore you, but what was

EDS that became HP, that became

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DXC, that became Perspective.

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I was part of all those

streams, acquisitions.

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Whatever you want to call it, uh,

and Falconwood actually was the

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company I sat across from as they

were the seat of contractor for

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the Navy, uh, on the NMCI program.

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I tried to retire and our founder.

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Ali asked me to come and help her

build out the strategy to grow

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because she knew she was going

to be exiting the small business.

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roughly 4 years this coming May.

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Uh, and it's been quite a ride

and we'll certainly talk to that.

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Uh, my pairing on the hot dog piece.

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Reminds me of 1st time I saw

someone put mayonnaise on a hot dog.

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I was 6 years old and I was.

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I'm amazed by that and I tried it and I

thought, well, this is great, but I, I

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am a, I'm a Tex Mex, uh, fan to the hilt.

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It doesn't matter.

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It's meat, cheese and dough period.

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I don't just prepare it.

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However, and it can be

chicken or beef, whatever.

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Uh, and unfortunately, growing up

in Louisiana, I'm allergic to all

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things that come out of the water.

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So, I never was able to, uh, enjoy the

delicacies of, uh, Creole food growing up.

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So, uh, every crawfish boil I went

to, they had a hamburger for me.

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Nice.

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Tim Winkler: Meat, cheese, and dough.

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I, I mean, can't go wrong.

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It's a, it's a power, power,

power pairing there as well.

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And, um, you know, kind of wrapping that,

that might be one of our, one of our rare,

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you know, four, four pairings of food.

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And no alcohol.

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No alcohol.

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That's, that's, uh, that's

a rare impressive guys.

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This is going to be a good episode.

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I can tell already.

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Um, well again, thank

you both for joining us.

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Excited to, to, to jump into the

conversation and, um, let's go

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ahead and pivot into the, the core

of, of the episode at this point.

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So, as I mentioned earlier, we're, we're

diving into a, you know, this crucial

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transition phase for businesses that are.

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In the federal contracting world, um,

you know, kind of stepping up from

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the protected realm of small business

set asides to These more challenging

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waters of full and open competition.

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Uh, and so, you know, for folks

that maybe aren't, aren't, you know,

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tuned into that space, you know,

you might not know or be wondering

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why this shift is so significant.

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It's, it's.

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Consider it like this.

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So if you're transitioning, it's like

moving from, you know, a smaller pond

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where you're a big fish with certain

advantages to this vast ocean, where

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the competition includes the largest

sharks in the sea, major corporations

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armed with, you know, raw resources

and established market positions.

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And, um, so this change isn't just about,

you know, facing stiffer competition.

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It's, it's about navigating through

new regulatory environments and you

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kind of maintaining strong ties with.

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Your government clients, uh,

and then continuously trying

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to innovate, to stand out.

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Um, so it, you know, it, it does require

strategic foresight, robust partnerships,

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and, you know, some sharp operational

tactics that, that will all kind of play

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a critical role in ensuring, you know,

some sustained growth and profitability.

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And once you make that leap.

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So the way that I foresee this

conversation flowing is to first

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hear from Rolf, who has successfully

kind of navigated Falconwood through

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these, these waters, and, you know,

hearing a little bit more about the

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strategic decisions and like those

lessons learned during that transition.

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And then we can turn to Greg.

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Who's at the helm, you know, preparing,

uh, Anika systems for, for this leap.

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Um, and focus a little bit more on

like the financial strategies and the

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operational adjustments that you're

kind of going through to thrive in

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this, this new competitive arena.

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Uh, so Rolf, why don't you tee us off?

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Uh, maybe a good starting point though,

would be, you know, providing our

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listeners with what that criteria is,

uh, To be considered a small business.

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Um, and then from there you can

discuss how you kind of navigate

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that transition at Falconwood.

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Rolf Holman: Yeah.

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So, uh, so we traditionally, uh, have

mainly played in the, uh, DOD space.

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Uh, Navy Marine Corps was where we cut our

teeth, uh, certain stipulations around,

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uh, growth with small business, uh,

certain revenues, certain, uh, headcount.

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Um, and when I first got here, we

were approaching going over the 5 year

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minimum of annual revenues that would

cause us to move into, uh, not small.

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We don't call it large business.

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We call it not small.

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And the big thing is that you look at what

your current customer base is, and you

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need to protect your base and your base is

either made up of something you want full

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and open or something you make 1 that was.

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A small business, and you immediately

look into how do I make sure I

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protect whatever that revenue is.

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But I can, because when the revenue,

when the renewal comes around.

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It may stay small, so you need to

have a plan, whether it's a JV,

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whether you get behind a small,

whether you press that it's gotten

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big enough that it's full and open.

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So, you really look at your existing

base business to make sure that you

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have a plan for every 1 of those.

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The 2nd thing that's really important.

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Is the culture of the company,

the small business culture is very

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different than when you have to behave

and or act like a large business.

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Uh, and that is probably 1 of the biggest.

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Failures of small business in going

into that of it takes investment.

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It is not about just saying, okay,

we can keep acting the way we acted.

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Uh, our founder and chairman,

I give her a ton of credit.

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She opened her checkbook up and

she built a business development

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team that was purely overhead.

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So that we had compliance, so we had

pricing, so we had a capture manager.

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We have proposal manager.

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All those things in place so that we

could compete the 2nd piece with me

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coming in is that I had a large network

of people that I had purchased from.

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As a large company, and now that I'm

a small company, I mean, either in the

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same boat with them, or as an example,

value add resellers that we, as a

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large company used to get tremendous.

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Small business credit, because we

could purchase so much hardware

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software through the small companies.

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That was very helpful.

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Those companies not to be named,

but they knew who they are.

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They came to me, gave me project based

business and project based business is.

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Is in quarter in year revenue, which

is, is, uh, is joy to the CFO's ears

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that when you bring in quarter in year

revenue, even though it may be six

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months, eight months, those projects

end up sometimes becoming programs.

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So you don't just go after the same

traditional contract opportunities,

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you try to go after the, uh,

the project based business.

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So in my first two years here.

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We secured the base, we knew what

was going to stay full and open.

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We knew what was going to stay small

and we have strategies around that.

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We then started to do project

based work that led to

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additional work outside of that.

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That project based work.

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Literally was what paid

for my team to be built.

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So we were not taking from the

company anything that was overhead

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wise from the base business.

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We were growing based on

that project based business.

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And, you know, I encourage everyone

don't be afraid of something.

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That's a 4 week project with 1

person to go do some cyber work.

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You, if you have good people and good,

your reputation, it's going to grow.

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And next thing, you know, you

have things growing from there.

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So that was really the

approach on the front end.

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The tough piece has been.

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Where, um, I'm now competing against

the people that used to give me business

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because I was a small and they got credit

for me being a small and that balance of

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how do I have the coopetition with the

Booz Allens, the Deloitte's, the GDIT's.

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Really having the relationships to

understand how do I go after something?

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I know that they're not going after

because their cost of sale or their

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budget isn't going to go after something

like that and finding that mix.

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And then you've got the mid tiers

that you really compete with the most.

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And so that's really the science

around understanding what you need.

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But number 1, protect your base.

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Number 2, figure out how you can do

project based work to help bring in

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the revenue while you're now starting

to compete on those larger projects.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, that's

that's great feedback.

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And I think the, um, that other piece

that you talked about of, you know, from

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a cultural perspective too, and how that,

uh, evolves throughout the organization.

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I think that's one thread that

we can pull on, uh, a little bit

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more, uh, in this conversation.

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Um, and, and real quick before I

do pass it over to, to Greg, um,

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you know, you kind of mentioned

this, uh, revenue threshold.

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Do you have specifics on what that, Um,

Number is what it looks like and then

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how long that that that goes for before

you're considered to have to graduate.

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Rolf Holman: Yeah.

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So it's, it's different for

every what I'd say, uh, Mac or,

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uh, contracting, uh, vehicle.

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So seaport is the biggest for the Navy.

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And you have to be it's 49Million

dollars annual revenues.

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And once you go over that, uh, in a

5 year period, it used to be 3 year.

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It's now 5 year period

of time since cobit.

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So, they, they gave some breaks, which

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Um, and then some are associated

with some of the nays codes.

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We still qualify because we

don't have 1 of the threshold

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You're considered a small, but most

times it's associated with what your

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sam dot gov reads and what your, um.

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Seaport, uh, if you really, whichever

vehicle you're on, they have thresholds.

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And so for that, it's the.

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Believe it's 49Million dollars a year

annual revenues over a period of 5 years.

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And if you, if you exceed that,

you then have to register in and

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you're no longer considered small.

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You still have the opportunity to

bid on those contract vehicles.

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You're just now.

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Not looking at the small business

set asides, which was a big hurdle

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for Falconwood on the front end.

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Tim Winkler: I'm just generally

curious on, on, from a headcount

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perspective, you know, what,

what's the, the size of Falconwood?

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Rolf Holman: So we started in the

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uh, we grew to just over 300 now.

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Um, most of our business has been

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Uh, year, um, our founder and CEO

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cut her teeth originally on CETA

contracting on acquisition of technology

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for what was the NMCI network and.

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From that, she recognized how

the acquisition piece actually

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needed a technology advice too.

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So she started hiring technology

advisors, engineers, solution architects,

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so that the Navy, whoever they're

sitting across from as their prime,

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they could negotiate to make sure.

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And the evolution of what is to

now the engine Smith contract has

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evolved 24 years of going from

what it was 24 years ago to today.

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And, uh, that's, that's the

main growth of Falconwood.

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And from there, that help.

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Allow organic growth from other

command saying, hey, we need you to

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do this, but now we're truly competing

in a, in a full and open market.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, I'll have some more

questions about that, but, um, to be a

424

good chance to, uh, pivot over to Greg

and, um, just kind of hear this from

425

your perspective, Greg, um, maybe just

kind of fill us in a little bit more on

426

how, you know, Anika Systems is preparing

to transition into this, you know, full

427

and open competition, like what are

some of the primary strategic focuses

428

that you're dialing in on to ensure

that you're going to remain competitive?

429

Greg Schaub: Yeah, so we're definitely

in a kind of a tough spot right now,

430

but in one hand, it's a good spot to be

in because we've had some rapid growth.

431

think we were doing about 8 million in

432

revenue, and, uh, we've been having,

you know, some rapid growth the last

433

few years to the point now where we're

getting ready to graduate, uh, as Rolf

434

said, you know, our, uh, Our area is a

34 million dollar annual average over 5

435

years that we're coming up against that

will graduate after at the end of 20.

436

we're projected to graduate

437

so we've gone from being a very small

company to now we have over 150 employees.

438

And like I said, we're.

439

We're getting ready to graduate our,

our focus as a company is more on the

440

civilian side of government contracting

the smaller agencies that don't

441

typically have the biggest budgets.

442

But our company, what we do is

technology modernization, AI

443

automations and these are these are

the agencies that really can use.

444

Uh, our support, um, because

again, they don't have the budgets.

445

They need to be able to do more with less.

446

Um, and, uh, so we've been focused on

these areas, uh, getting, you know, to

447

know that, you know, getting in well

with the customer, them knowing us, us

448

knowing them, us knowing their needs

and trying to support them on that.

449

Um, the frustrating, the frustrating

part now as a small business

450

graduating, uh, and Ralph mentioned

it is protecting your, your revenue is

451

the agencies are, uh, they have small

business goals that they need to meet.

452

They have these, uh, every, every

agency has a different goal,

453

anywhere from 20 to 25 to 30%.

454

Uh, they need to give to small businesses.

455

And that may be through a prime award

that could be through subcontracting

456

on a large business award through

subcontractors on that contract.

457

So, the problem with us as a small

business, trying to go into the large

458

business and protecting that is.

459

For the customer to move that from the

small business to full and open, they

460

need to replace that with something.

461

And a lot of times these projects

that they focus for small businesses,

462

they do that for a reason.

463

They, they want, it's a

smaller level contract.

464

Um, a lot of times small business

or the, you know, the, the companies

465

that are on the cusp of development,

they got a niche that they're focused

466

on and they want to kind of pull

that thread within their agency.

467

Um, but they like, they want to keep

those dollars in small business.

468

So, as we graduate, you know,

we have to look at, can we

469

move things to full and open?

470

Do we need to, uh, work with them to

see how they want to continue the work?

471

Are they going to.

472

You know, um, do we need to form

certain relationships to keep it if

473

they want to keep a small business

that we can keep performing, or at

474

least compete to continue performing.

475

So, as a company, um, we've been doing a

lot of in house maturation of the company.

476

You know, bringing in new systems

that are the accounting system is

477

1 that we've implemented this year.

478

Um, going to, um, you know, I don't mean

to name drop, but, you know, unit is the

479

company that we've we've transitioned to.

480

Um, they are known for their gov con.

481

Software, there's so many,

there's a, there's a few, there's

482

only so many providers that

are really built around GovCon.

483

Other ones that are available are built

and can be customized into the things

484

that you need in government contractings

for large business that will stand up

485

to a DCA audit or various reporting.

486

Requirements, so we've been doing

some upgrades on that in house

487

audit tax team benefits, taking a

look at all these things ways to

488

be competitive in the phone open.

489

Um, and, uh, as, as Ralph mentioned to

the key part of it is also trying to

490

build out our business development arm.

491

Um, you know, these, these, once we

go into large business, um, you know,

492

we're going to be competing against the

multi billion dollar businesses that we

493

compete against them, but I mean, we're

in the same boat as Lockheed Martin and

494

Northrop Grumman and, uh, and those,

those ones who have hundreds, if not

495

thousands of people working on their

teams to develop business, and we have.

496

You know, a handful, so it's it's those

sort of things that we need to be focused

497

on bringing a good team, um, with, you

know, good relationships and knowing, um,

498

who to talk to to understand the needs

of the customers that we're targeting.

499

Mike Gruen: One thing you mentioned that,

and also Rolf mentioned, um, I'm curious

500

your opinions on, so that Rolf, when you

were talking, you're talking about, uh,

501

getting behind a small, which is, I think,

um, Greg, also what you, you sort of

502

alluded to with like, maybe establishing

a partnership, getting, having someone

503

else who now they're the small, they're

essentially the prime, I'm guessing.

504

And I don't know if you want

to speak a little bit to that.

505

I'm sure there's risks and things

that come along with, you know, now

506

you're sort of giving up that business.

507

I'm curious, like, is that.

508

A common tactic of how to sort of

maintain some of these small business.

509

Greg Schaub: I'll go first.

510

I mean, yes, I've worked.

511

I've worked on both sides of it for,

you know, companies that were large

512

and companies that were graduating

into had graduated into large.

513

So for us, Anika systems, um, you know,

we have certain technology, certain

514

focuses that we have, but we're supporting

customers that have a lot of needs.

515

So we do team with other small

businesses that bring another capability

516

to the team that gives a very full.

517

Picture to the customer, um,

they become sort of our, uh, you

518

know, tried and true partners.

519

And when we start looking at going, you

know, the next iteration of a contract,

520

um, we start to prop them up as.

521

You know, the heir apparent, um, you

know, and we want to keep the team

522

together, which is just going to be

a different name on the contract.

523

And, uh, those are sort

of the relationships.

524

Um, you know, we look at, um, another

thing we do is, you know, commonly

525

returned to referred to as sort of

the over under, um, you know, where.

526

We, uh, you know, we'll bring a, you

know, company on and, you know, as

527

a, a sub on a contract, that may be

a little bit of a stretch for them.

528

If they bring us on a contract after,

you know, it goes the other way.

529

So having those relationships and, and

the key is to have that relationship.

530

It's not just a, you know,

having a, a sub to have a sub.

531

It's really working as a team.

532

So.

533

I

534

Rolf Holman: echo those same words

and it also helps with finding that

535

company that that company would be

the right formula for a JV and the

536

JV aspect gives the larger company a

little bit more percentage of revenue

537

share when you bid as the JV and.

538

JV meaning joint venture, right?

539

Is that just to make sure that folks.

540

Okay.

541

Yeah.

542

And, and, uh, I've talked to so many

people it's there, there's more bad

543

JVs than there are good JVs out there.

544

Uh, and it's about finding that

good over under relationship

545

Mike Gruen: that, that can lead to that.

546

But.

547

I mean, I think it's also interesting as

a small business started, like, because

548

I've done government contracting, I've

been civilian and, uh, dot and Intel.

549

Um, and the number of sort of

these small businesses that their

550

entire business model is will be

the prime for some big contract.

551

Like they're just a pastor and all they're

doing is taking a little bit of revenue.

552

And, um, and it's funny, I don't

think that's how they, some, maybe

553

some of them started that way, but

I think there's some companies that

554

start off as small businesses that.

555

That they get so much revenue from

that, that that's, you know, they

556

don't, they're not prepared for what's

going to happen when that runs out.

557

Like, you can only do that for so long.

558

And I'm curious, like, you know,

have you seen the same things?

559

Um, you know, and the dangers of maybe

working with those types of places.

560

Greg Schaub: Yeah, I've

definitely seen it.

561

And there's a, besides just the joint

venture approach, there's another,

562

uh, program called the, um, uh, mentor

protege joint venture, um, that you

563

may be probably aware of, um, it's,

it's governed by small, the SBA.

564

Um, so there are some rules

and, and, and they do monitor.

565

It's not just the throwaway, but that is,

that is definitely an avenue graduating

566

small business looks at needs to look at.

567

And it's a great program if

done correctly, because it

568

gives an opportunity for us.

569

A growing company and I'm talking

like a small business to really

570

learn from a large business.

571

And there's the requirements

in it is the small business has

572

to provide a certain amount of

people towards that joint venture.

573

It's not like a large

business can come in and.

574

Uh, just, you know, give you a

couple of people and they take a

575

100, um, you know, the small business

does have to have some control.

576

They're the managing partner

of the mentor protege.

577

So JV, so, um, it is a

good way to grow a company.

578

It's a good way.

579

And under under that, um, all the awards

are still small business set aside.

580

So you, as a large business

can still keep work.

581

Through that mentor protege JV, um,

you know, you keep the work and,

582

um, you qualify the company grows.

583

And, um, you know, I think in

those cases, everybody wins,

584

but there's definitely been use.

585

I'm sure you've seen this as well, but,

uh, there's definitely been some abuse.

586

That's been, uh, um, you

know, been called out.

587

And I know SBA is starting to

crack down a little bit more.

588

We've been seeing.

589

Tim Winkler: Our folks taking advantage

of government contracting is abusing it.

590

That sounds odd.

591

Yeah, we've seen it from, uh, you

know, folks that are, uh, more so,

592

you know, maybe on the building,

on the product side of things, like

593

obtaining these sober grants and kind

of staying in these, they call them

594

silver mills where they'll just kind of.

595

Staying in a certain phase, a low phase

with never intention, no intentions

596

of ever getting it to a scale like

serve large service contractor or

597

phase three, they just want to kind

of milk those little small, you

598

know, one mil, five mil grants and

never really take it any further.

599

So that's just one small example of some

companies that have taken advantage of.

600

Some of the, uh, processes of government

contracting, but, um, I've got a question

601

that I wanted to ask this might be more

relevant for you, Greg, just because it's

602

going to be a little bit more dialed into

the financial side of things, but, um,

603

you know, from an M and a perspective,

you know, you know, so you were kind

604

of brought in strategically and part

of that was in preparation for this.

605

Transition phase, right?

606

It sounds like, well, if you were also

brought in strategically to, so, you

607

know, when, when they're looking at a

background for someone like yourself,

608

um, you know, what, what are some

of these talking points where, you

609

know, is there, is there an evaluation

between growing independently or is

610

there, are you exploring potential

M and A opportunities at this

611

transition point before or right after?

612

Greg Schaub: Yeah, so I know for us,

um, we are, we are not actively at

613

the moment, you know, coming up on any

acquisition, but I think you're always as

614

a company needing to take a look at that.

615

And as a graduating small business,

that is a key turning point.

616

You know, is when you, when you graduate

in and you become a, you know, let's

617

just say, you, you, you know, you're

a 45 million company coming into it.

618

50 million is your target for next year,

but you can go out and acquire a company.

619

That's maybe doing 30 million also

coming up on graduation in a year or so.

620

And overnight become a 80 to 90

million company, uh, with, with, um,

621

uh, customers and capabilities, you,

you definitely can become a bigger

622

player in the market instantaneously.

623

Um, for us, you know, one of the

things that we've done that we've, you

624

know, has helped us become successful

is we've invested in ourselves,

625

um, by having an R and D arm to

our company that is completely self

626

funded, building new technologies.

627

And for us, that's what we have to kind

of look at is, do we want to spend money

628

on going and acquiring a company with

revenue already out there that has, uh,

629

past performance and new customers, or

do we want to continue developing this?

630

This technology that could grow

exponentially in the next few years

631

and put that money there with our

customers that we already have

632

and take it to the next level.

633

That will transcend a

small business set aside.

634

And those are those are the sort of

the tug of war that we were having.

635

I think overall, an

investment needs to be made.

636

You can't just sit idly wait

for more contracts to come in.

637

You have to invest.

638

It's just Is it in acquisition?

639

Is it in self development?

640

Is it, you know, you know,

in business development, even

641

sure that we just before.

642

So,

643

Tim Winkler: yeah, I mean, I could see

the, I could see the, the angle as well.

644

Like, you know, Ralph, you described

having to hire an entire sales and

645

BD team, like, A potential aqua hire,

right, where it's really strategic to,

646

you know, gobbling up a, a team of,

you know, five to 10 sales BD folks

647

who've already been penetrating these

markets for some time and have those

648

relationships in place, uh, to, you

know, hiring is not easy, uh, hiring

649

good sales folks is really not easy.

650

And so making that a, a part of that

strategy, Ralph, did you guys do any

651

sort of M and a, um, you know, shortly

before or after your transition?

652

Rolf Holman: So, uh, so the,

the, the real piece there was.

653

Having grown organically, we were

very used to being in the room when,

654

hey, can you do this and the task

order is created and ceiling is there.

655

We can make it.

656

Or introduced to a customer

that has something not saying

657

it wasn't a competition.

658

It was still work to be done, but that

kind of growth compared to actually

659

having to put a compliant bid in.

660

Was two different worlds.

661

And so the investment.

662

Of the front end when I got here was

putting people in Falconwood that could

663

actually produce a compliant bit so

that you're not sending in a security

664

letter that's dated 2 years ago.

665

That should have been dated 90 days

from the release of the competition

666

get kicked out for compliant.

667

Um, and from from that standpoint, no,

we were not we were not looking for.

668

We were not in any active.

669

M& A role our our focus was.

670

We have now graduated.

671

What do we need to look like 1 year

from now, 3 years from now, 5 years from

672

now, and that had everything to do with

market that we were going to portfolio,

673

which was another piece I didn't mention

earlier is the, you know, the culture

674

of the company, but also the portfolio.

675

Our portfolio of what we

focused on 5 years ago is very

676

different than what we are today.

677

And it's mainly because of the technology.

678

So, most of our investment has

been more towards the portfolio,

679

what we're going after.

680

And now it's a part of, uh, coming across

supporting smalls and a big chunk of

681

our, uh, pipeline is I'm a sub to small

businesses that want my past performance.

682

And that's that's a big

chunk of our pipeline today.

683

We're very prescriptive of what we're

going after as a prime only because I

684

need to know who's going after that.

685

And so we're, we're really

selective on that aspect.

686

Okay.

687

Um, And then, as, as the, as the

market, you know, changes, and,

688

you know, a lot of small businesses

are exiting the government space.

689

They're, they're, they're just, they,

you know, cost plus fixed fee, you

690

got 8 percent that you're looking at,

and you're giving 5 percent to your,

691

your subs that you have on there,

and then you've got to try to manage

692

how you're going to make that money.

693

And I'm not the finance guy here.

694

If I understand that, Okay.

695

You know, it's, it's probably most people

that will be listening to this to hear

696

me quoting finance pieces right now.

697

They'll be falling off their chair.

698

But no, so to answer your question,

the look for any mergers, it

699

was only if we had a specific

technology we were going to pivot to.

700

So, to 2 areas, we really

have pivoted to that.

701

We were there cyber.

702

We were there, but we've really pivoted

towards what cyber has grown to.

703

And then on the data sciences piece,

we've really pivoted to what we

704

do in our data science base and

have hired people in that area.

705

And and luckily for us, you know, as the

seat of contractor, we have the world's

706

largest network outside of the Internet.

707

To harvest data off of and, and we have

that intellectual property that I'm

708

walled off from that customer, but it

doesn't keep me from being able to take

709

the intellectual property of what we've

learned and how we do things to, to go.

710

It transcends across all of government

and quite frankly, all of commercial.

711

Tim Winkler: Yeah, and I, I, just for

folks that maybe aren't, uh, privy

712

to, you know, the ins and outs of

some of the government contracting.

713

Uh, terms, acronyms as well.

714

Uh, so from what I understand, it's,

it's a systems engineering or technical.

715

Advisory advisory, and

that we are agnostic to

716

Rolf Holman: we're

agnostic to any technology.

717

We help the government choose the right

technology to run on a specific program.

718

Okay.

719

And that that that is our

largest contract that we have.

720

However, we have shifted and we

now can actually do the systems

721

integration for the same technology.

722

On other contracts, and so we're,

we're completely walled off from that

723

one customer, um, and, and, and have

a tremendous amount of intellectual

724

property around the entire IT stack.

725

When it comes to the evolution

of what MMCI was in the year

726

727

Is, is pretty amazing.

728

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

729

And MCI was a client of ours

730

It was a long time ago, but,

um, um, I'd also need to give a

731

quick shout out because we had a.

732

We had a Fal, uh, a Falcon

Wood, uh, employee on a previous

733

episode, uh, Katie Wildman.

734

Um, and, uh, you know, she was there

because, you know, she was kind

735

of this intermediary between, you

know, a commercial entity and the

736

government customer with the, the

Navy was, was the, the customer here.

737

But, um, you know, her, her

kind of knowledge and uh, just.

738

Savviness was, was really, was really,

um, uh, uh, a breath of fresh air to

739

see when you, when you think about how

some of this gets translated to, to

740

folks that maybe aren't as technical.

741

So it was really interesting model,

um, that, that you guys have there.

742

You know, you know, we work with a

few, uh, uh, small, small businesses,

743

the bulk of, of our partners, when

we talk about from a talent and

744

recruiting perspective, right.

745

You know, these are companies

that are anywhere from 25 to,

746

you know, 100, 150 in headcount.

747

And they're thinking about these things.

748

And so I, you know, in prep for

this, I asked, you know, some of our

749

partners and clients, you know, what,

you know, what are, what are you

750

really, you know, most planning for?

751

And I think the number one thing

that consistently came up was,

752

you know, ensuring that they

diversify their client base.

753

Um, you know, if you're just stuck in.

754

You know, you're only, you know, defense

health agency and that's all you do.

755

Um, you know, having a little bit more

of a, uh, uh, a network into some other

756

areas before you hit that mark, because.

757

You know, starting from scratch is

going to be a lot more difficult

758

once you make that transition.

759

Um, what, what would you say, Greg,

in terms of like what some of those,

760

so one of the more, more important

things that you all are thinking of

761

is it, and how you're weighing that

between diversifying your customers

762

or, you know, diversifying your

service offerings or your capabilities.

763

Greg Schaub: Yeah, so I, I

think you're exactly right.

764

It's, it's getting, it's trying to

diversify your, your customers and

765

as a small business, you know, you

only have so many customers, uh,

766

hence why you're a small business.

767

So, it's, it's, it's sort of what

Ralph was kind of saying before about

768

getting some of that project based,

uh, the contracts where you can.

769

You know, with a teammate, get

in with some, a new customer

770

and get the experience there.

771

They get to know you a little bit.

772

Uh, you mentioned, uh, you

know, with the 1 customer.

773

Um, the problem is in

government, there is turnover.

774

There's people get promoted.

775

People move on to others and overnight.

776

Somebody new comes in to the, the area

that you're really focused in and.

777

They're coming from somewhere

else and they may already have

778

somebody that they a couple of teams

that they're more familiar with.

779

They feel more comfortable

working with, um, that that work

780

and evaporate pretty quickly.

781

So, yeah, I, I think you, you have

to be looking at that looking at

782

ways, um, you know, whether it's, you

know, tangent, uh, agencies, or just

783

something, somebody completely different

on the other side of the spectrum.

784

Um, but that's where we we're

focused on as well right now.

785

Tim Winkler: So, you know, we've

got a new administration, uh,

786

coming into play here very soon.

787

And, um, yeah, there's all sorts of, uh,

you know, white noise back, back, back in

788

the background of what's going to happen.

789

Everybody's got some ideas

and, um, there's certainly

790

going to be some changes.

791

Uh, Are there any emerging trends or, or

things that you all are really dialing

792

into, um, with the new administration

coming in that you would say, you know,

793

you'd recommend as maybe something

top of mind for, you know, other

794

small businesses that are entering

the space or, or also, you know,

795

graduating that's open for anyone.

796

Greg Schaub: I mean, from my perspective,

I feel like it's so unknown right now.

797

What's what it's really going to

look like, because they're throwing

798

a lot of ideas out there right now.

799

I've been to a couple of conferences

in November, right after election

800

with some big names, and they've

been trying to speculate as well.

801

Um, I think overarchingly what the

sense obviously we're all getting

802

is they're looking to be a more

efficient government going forward.

803

Um, you know, whether it's going

to be the initiative with the doge.

804

Mhm.

805

Group or just, you know,

initiatives within agencies.

806

Um, and with that, I think that's where

industry, where we can really help in that

807

regard, bringing technologies, bringing

best practices we as corporations,

808

especially a small business have to

work efficiently because, um, we only

809

have so much revenue, so much capital.

810

We have to, you know, wear multiple hats.

811

And, um, I think.

812

I think that's kind of a key for,

you know, small businesses or even

813

large businesses in the small realm

is, is how can we support that

814

initiative and bring that forward?

815

Tim Winkler: Any closing remarks, Rolf,

before we transition to the final segment?

816

I

817

Rolf Holman: would just say that

I'm staying focused on what I know

818

is going to be in the next 3 to 6

months that has budget behind it.

819

And that when things, you know, shake

out the way they shake out and we

820

are not in the oil and gas business.

821

So that's the only area that I

know is going to see a spike.

822

Outside of cyber.

823

So,

824

Tim Winkler: all right.

825

All right.

826

Well, I know there's a number of other

things that we could probably get to,

827

uh, not not going to make it on this,

this episode, but maybe a follow up.

828

But, um, I wanted to take some time to

transition to the final segment here in

829

the last few minutes that we've got here.

830

Uh, again, this is the,

the five second scramble.

831

Uh, we'll be asking each of

you a series of questions.

832

You try to give your response within

five seconds, a little rapid fire Q

833

and a some business, uh, some fun.

834

Uh, Mike, why don't you kick us off with,

uh, Rolf and then I'll get around to Greg.

835

Sure.

836

Sounds good.

837

Uh, you ready to go?

838

Mike Gruen: Here we go.

839

All right.

840

Explain what a chief strategy officer

does as if I'm a five year old.

841

I help somebody make money.

842

Uh, what's the most important

skill you look for in a new hire?

843

Communication.

844

What's the best piece of

advice you've ever been given

845

know what you don't know.

846

I love that one.

847

My sixth grade teacher had a thing

on her desk that said a man who

848

knows what he knows and knows what he

doesn't know is a man who truly knows

849

and stuck with me all these years.

850

Anyway, love it.

851

Um, uh, what's your favorite part

of the company culture at Falcon?

852

Uh, there are tremendous

amount of caring people here.

853

Aside from AI, what is an emerging

technology that you're excited about?

854

Uh,

855

Rolf Holman: AI pretty much is

the top of my emerging technology

856

after seeing my son's new Apple,

uh, phone that he just got

857

Mike Gruen: and what it does.

858

Uh, uh, what, uh, what did you

want to do when you grew up?

859

When you were a kid.

860

I wanted to be a sportscaster.

861

Rolf Holman: Any particular sport?

862

I was a broadcast journalism,

broadcast journalism major in college.

863

And that was my intent to be on ESPN.

864

And I went to work for a bank.

865

In their data processing

center while I was interviewing

866

for jobs and EDS hired me.

867

There you go.

868

Uh, what's your favorite

app on your phone?

869

Uh, my favorite

870

Mike Gruen: app on my phone is

probably, uh, the flight tracker.

871

Uh, what's something you dislike

doing but are really good at?

872

Uh, getting up at five

o'clock in the morning.

873

Uh, what's a charity or corporate

philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

874

Rolf Holman: So, uh falconwood is

heavily involved in warrior canine

875

connection and Uh, our founder and

ceo is actually trained two dogs.

876

She had one For a good year and

a half, and that just went to

877

a vet, and now has another one.

878

The first one was named Rocky, after Rocky

Blyer, and they're named after veterans.

879

And that particular, uh, um, litter

of puppies was named after athletes.

880

And then the current is, uh, named

after, Thundercat is the code name for a.

881

Air Force, uh, fighter pilot that actually

owns a small business called Thundercat.

882

Yep, I'm very familiar

with that, actually.

883

I know him.

884

Anyway, go on.

885

So, uh, that is very near and dear.

886

And because I'm up here and

resting quite a bit, I get to, uh.

887

Take the dogs for walks and,

and, uh, do some of the training.

888

So it's great.

889

Very cool.

890

Greg Schaub: Has, uh, has Rocky

Blair ever met the real Rocky Blair?

891

Rolf Holman: Uh, we actually have a

picture of Rocky when, uh, Rocky was six

892

months old in Rocky's arms in Heinz Field.

893

Uh, okay.

894

Yeah,

895

Greg Schaub: he's, he's

very big in the US.

896

So up here in Northern Virginia,

he does a lot of events.

897

So I know he's, he's very

involved in a lot of the military.

898

Yeah.

899

Mike Gruen: All right.

900

And last question, uh, if you could

live in any fictional universe,

901

which one would you choose?

902

Fictional?

903

Uh, in Whoville.

904

Tim Winkler: Oh, good.

905

Timely.

906

Rolf Holman: Yeah.

907

Yeah.

908

I've watched The Grinch 15 times

with my grandson in the last year.

909

Tim Winkler: I just watched it for

the first time with my, my two year

910

old daughter, and I really wasn't sure

if she was going to be scared or not

911

the Jim Carrey version and a little

scared at first, but then you got

912

Rolf Holman: the old one.

913

You've got the, the, uh, Cumberbatch

one and you've got Jim Carrey.

914

That's right.

915

Nice.

916

Epic.

917

Tim Winkler: All right,

Greg, are you ready?

918

Sure.

919

All right.

920

Describe the culture

at, uh, Anika Systems.

921

Greg Schaub: Oh, we are a fun bunch

to work with, uh, open and, uh,

922

constructive with the criticisms, but

you know, we have a good time doing it.

923

Tim Winkler: What type of technologists

would you say thrives at Anika Systems?

924

Greg Schaub: Uh, really, I would say a

developer who's looking to, you know, get

925

into something they've never been before.

926

Tim Winkler: What kind of roles

are you hiring for at the moment?

927

Greg Schaub: Um, just all of that.

928

Anybody who is looking to, you

know, develop something that they

929

have never experienced before.

930

Um, looking, people are looking to, you

know, be part of that evolution of AI.

931

Tim Winkler: Aside from graduating

from a small to not small, what, what

932

would you say is one of the biggest

challenges that's facing Annika

933

heading into the next couple of years?

934

Greg Schaub: Uh, I think it's

the transitioning the mindset

935

inside the business of what it's

like to be a small into more

936

process, um, repeatable functions.

937

Um, like I mentioned before, a lot

of us wear multiple hats and we've

938

gotten good at it, but you start to

have to break that off and focus.

939

Uh, like a large business would

940

Tim Winkler: outside of AI.

941

Is there an emerging technology

that you're excited to see

942

evolve in the next five years?

943

Greg Schaub: Oh, I don't know.

944

It seems like everything is AI these

days, whether, whether it's the front

945

end or not, I'm still waiting for

the flying cars to become a thing.

946

So I would like to see that technology.

947

Eventually.

948

I think it's getting closer than it did.

949

I mean, I was promised

it 20 years ago, but

950

Mike Gruen: I don't know.

951

People can't drive in two dimensions.

952

I can't imagine they can handle.

953

I just

954

Tim Winkler: want back to the future.

955

I want to hoverboard

from back to the future.

956

Um, what, how would you describe

your, your morning routine?

957

Greg Schaub: Oh, gosh, my morning

routine is, you know, getting up at six

958

in the morning, trying to get the kids

off to, to school and, um, you know,

959

getting my coffee and getting on the

computer usually by six 30, um, while

960

they're working in the background.

961

Um,

962

Tim Winkler: do you have a

favorite app on your phone?

963

Greg Schaub: Reddit.

964

Nice.

965

Love Reddit.

966

Tim Winkler: What is a charity

or corporate philanthropy

967

that's near and dear to you?

968

Greg Schaub: Uh, I'm big on the

dog rescue groups and actually I

969

support, I have a foster right now

from a beagle rescue group here in

970

Virginia, Maryland area called brew,

uh, beagle rescue and education.

971

Um, so those, those are the.

972

Yeah.

973

Anything, you know, animal

rescue related is near and dear.

974

Tim Winkler: Same.

975

Yeah.

976

We'll give it a shout out in

the, uh, show notes as well.

977

Uh, if you could have dinner

with any tech icon past or

978

present, who would it be with?

979

Greg Schaub: Oh, wow, um,

980

I have 5 seconds, right?

981

Tim Winkler: Yeah,

982

Greg Schaub: you know, I think, um, you

know, Steve jobs always comes to mind 1st.

983

I know he was a bit prickly.

984

You know, he has a reputation,

especially, you know, posthumously.

985

But, you know, he was successful for

a reason, um, the way his mind work.

986

I would love to hear more about that.

987

I mean, there's been books

written about it, but to hear it

988

from the source would be great.

989

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

990

I mean, I think from impacting

the amount of consumers, just

991

humans that have been impacted by

his technologies are impressive.

992

Um, what is the worst fashion

trend that you've ever followed?

993

Greg Schaub: Oh, but I followed,

oh my gosh, uh, there was

994

a, it's gotta be the mullet.

995

Uh, there was, there was a, there was

a brief part back in the 80s where,

996

you know, I, you know, I got on board

with that and, uh, luckily there's

997

only a few pictures with me, but

they come out quite frequently, but,

998

Tim Winkler: yeah, well, we'll be sure

to get one of those for your headshot

999

on the, uh, thumbnail for this episode.

Uh, last one.

And what was your dream job as a kid?

Greg Schaub: Oh, I was I was

destined to be a baseball player.

I love baseball.

Um, you know, I played competitively.

I mean, I was 1 of those guys that you

hear about time and time again that the

story glory of the song glory days was

written about, you know, you know, that

that high school pitcher that was scouted.

Um, to only have his arm blown out and

reconstructed right at the end of his

high school years and, uh, you know, down

the drain it went, which in retrospect,

I often say it's a blessing because I

probably wouldn't have made it, um, very

far into the, you know, especially not the

major league level, but, uh, I probably

would have messed around too long.

Uh, instead I was able to focus

on a, you know, a real career that

I was probably more suited for.

Tim Winkler: Nice.

Awesome.

Well, that is a wrap.

Uh, thank you both so

much for, for joining us.

You've been excellent guests.

Uh, thanks for sharing

your insight on this topic.

I'm sure that this is a conversation that

will help a number of, of our listeners

that are either planning on making this

leap or this transition in the future.

So again, appreciate you taking the

time to join us here on the pod.