How We Hatched: Matt Theurer, Co-Founder & CEO, HyperSpectral.ai

Tim Winkler: 00:00:05

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of hatchpad, and I'm your other host, Mike Gruen. Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth. Thanks everybody for joining us on The Pair Program. Uh, again, this is a, another bonus episode of a mini series that we call how we hatched. So today we've got Matt Theurer spending time with us. Matt is the CEO and one of the co founders behind HyperSpectral, a startup that's using AI powered spectral intelligence to help detect hidden dangers and gather important information in different industries like food, safety, healthcare, and, and defense. Uh, Matt, I'm excited to have you with us today. Thanks for joining us on the pod.

Matt Theurer: 00:01:02

No, it's, it's my, uh, my very great honor and pleasure to be here. I'm, I'm looking forward to talking to you.

Tim Winkler: 00:01:07

Awesome. All right, well, let, let's jump in here. I always like to, you know, start these episodes with a real thought provoking question. Uh, what did Matt Theurer have for breakfast this morning?

Matt Theurer: 00:01:19

Ah, so, uh, I had a, uh, Canadian bacon, uh, Egg sandwich on a sourdough toast with homemade pesto.

Tim Winkler: 00:01:31

Oh, man. That's a strong, that's maybe the strongest answer we've ever had on the show. Is that, is that an everyday thing or is this a special occasion kind of treat yourself?

Matt Theurer: 00:01:41

You know, well, I probably have, uh, have, uh, eggs and some sort of bacon far more often than my wife would prefer. Um, but I love to cook. It's a hobby of mine.

Tim Winkler: 00:01:51

Awesome.

Matt Theurer: 00:01:52

Um, so, uh, I, I try to get a little, uh, creative when I, uh, Uh, when I cook or make myself breakfast, you know, this is, this kind of sandwich is, you know, a couple of times a week, other days it's, you know, oatmeal and, uh, uh, or, you know, sometimes it's a full on, you know, hash brown, egg, bacon kind of thing. It just depends on, depends on what I have time for in the morning. So

Tim Winkler: 00:02:18

sounds like you geared up for, for this episode with a, with a hearty start. So we're, we're looking forward to it. All right, we'll, we'll jump in here. Um, you know, so in a, in, in true kind of how we hatched form, you know, before we get into the, kind of the groundbreaking technology behind hyperspectral, I would like to learn a little bit more about the journey of the, the entrepreneur behind the business. So I always start with you telling us a little bit about your background and, you know, what led you down this path and, uh, and, uh, such a unique field, such as spectral data.

Matt Theurer: 00:02:49

Sure. Uh, That's a, that's, that's, it's a, that could potentially be a long story. Um, so I'll try to keep it as concise as possible. Um, so I am, uh, an engineer by degree, uh, and by mindset. Um, always have been, always been fascinated with, uh, the how and why things work. Uh, I mean, to the point where I think when I was nine, um, I wanted to understand how, well, you know, this stuff called electricity, so I shoved an antenna wire into a light socket. Um, and, uh, uh, pretty much blew out, uh, the fuse box in the house and made my hair stand on end and smoke. And, and, uh, in true nine year old fashioned, I screamed, I didn't do it. Um, hint, um, I did it. Uh, but, uh, you know, so, uh, but more importantly, you know, I just, I've always had a really intense curiosity as to, to just the how and why of, of the world. Um, and I, I'm always looking for, for these technologies, these things, if you will, that I think are really gonna, really gonna alter the world in which they're applied. Uh, and that's been very early on my entire career. So, uh, we were just joking a minute ago about Microsoft, uh, Microsoft technologies and the need to restart. Um, but I, uh, uh, I was one of the very early adopters of Microsoft Windows NT back way back in the early nineties when, when the, the world looked at, at Microsoft technologies and said, yeah, that's really neat, but it's not going to be enterprise. Right. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, they got a lot of work to do, but, you know, this, these, these things called PCs are going to take over the world. They're going to replace the mainframes or at least, you know, You know, greatly supplant a lot of the work. And, and I think I deployed windows NT and then windows technologies, I think day or two after it went GA, um, a little later on in my career, I, uh, uh, after I basically built a reputation as being an expert in, in Microsoft technologies. Again, I was at a conference. It's actually ironically enough, a Microsoft conference. And I ran across this little company called VMware. And, uh, again, I remember looking at it and saying, wow, the product is really rough, but. Geez, if you've got this capability to run multiple operating systems and, and their attendant applications on top of a single piece of hardware, a single processor, really driving the use up, um, and the efficiency, that's going to change the world again. Right. And I, I jumped on very early and the company I started was VMware's first authorized consulting company and partner. Um, and just for, for the, the readers who, who are not geeks like me, or I'm the listeners who are not geeks like me. What VMware invented virtualization on an x86 is the entire basis for the cloud computing that we all use today. I mean, AWS is based on that concept. Microsoft Azure cloud is based on virtualization on x86, Google cloud, all of that stuff. Is, is based on that. And that's what I spent my career looking for is really what's going to, what's going to really alter everything and the scope of what these things alter has, has, has grown over my career. Right. Um, but that's what drives me, right. Is what's really going to go out there, alter the world and solve real problems.

Tim Winkler: 00:06:32

Yeah. Sounds like a natural curiosity, uh, kind of is a, is a theme throughout, uh, you know, your, your career and. You know, when this, this company you're referring to is, uh, take it's Virtustream. Is, is that the,

Matt Theurer: 00:06:44

Yeah, so Virtustream is another company I was a founder of. So VMware kind of, you know, made x86 virtualization possible. The company I started, I was a co founder of Virtustream was a cloud provider. So think of, um, you know, again, Amazon Web Services, Google Cloud, Microsoft Azure. That company we started in 2009. Um, that was actually. Uh, let me, let me roll back the company I started that was VMware's first partner was a company called Bride Technologies. And we were just all into just doing VMware technology. Um, we were approached in 2009 by a couple of other entrepreneurs, my, my business partner and I, and said, Hey, we want to build a cloud. Um, but we want to build a cloud focused on enterprise applications, right? So things that were, um, or applications that were not designed to run on the cloud were not designed to run on Amazon web services. Um, so, you know, we need to run things like SAP or Oracle financials or, uh, some of the big healthcare record systems, which were all intended to run in house. So, We were the experts in, in building stuff for VMware on top of VMware. And that was the foundation and that was Virtustrength, right? It was an, we called it enterprise cloud.

Tim Winkler: 00:07:58

I gotcha.

Matt Theurer: 00:07:59

Okay.

Tim Winkler: 00:07:59

So I, I skipped a, uh, uh, uh, it looks like a, a lengthy piece as well and in your career, uh, at NIH as well. So, so it sounds like you, your, your first company you started, um, with Bry technologies, uh, Were you working with NIH in tandem, uh, of Bri, or tell me a little bit about how this overlap works.

Matt Theurer: 00:08:21

No. So I started working at the NIH when I was still a student. Um, and, uh, I worked for their division of engineering services. Um, and, uh, I was just started off doing that kind of building automation, building control systems, right. And it was, I was really lucky. I had some great mentors there who, who really gave me really kind of an outstanding level of freedom for a 19 year old engineering student to have. And that they plopped a project in front of me. I was working for the energy engineer specifically on, we need to find a way to optimize, um, the chilled water system. So when you look at big campuses, university campuses, Things like the NIH, they tend to have a central chilled water system, where they cool water down in a big central building, or in the NIH's case, two central buildings, that pumps all over the campus, and, um, that's how they cool the buildings, right, um, in a very hot, humid environment, like Maryland is in the summer, um, you know, those pieces chillers, massive power draw, and they're also, um, Not the most efficient things in the world. So I was given the task of figure out the best way to turn on the sequence of turning these systems on and what load they should run to provide the maximum cooling for the minimum amount of power. Uh, and it turned out to be a very complex job. I was taking environmental data and analyzing water flows and power draw and all this. But basically I offensively built efficiency curves. Um, and we cut roughly a million dollars a month off of NIH's summer power bill. Um, which, uh, I was pretty happy, you know, as a, as an IT, you know, no, I was, I was under the guidance and supervision of the engineer, but, uh, they ended up giving me a job, um, you know, beyond the summer appointment that I had, um, and I, I worked at the NIH throughout my college career. In fact, I ended up doing, getting my degree under what they call a cooperative education program, which is where you have a, uh, an engineering job. And then I was given a career choice kind of, um, as I graduated, they're like, we have a job for you. Um, which was kind of nice. Uh, it wasn't necessarily easy to find a job in the early nineties as an engineer. Uh, um, uh, but you know, these things called personal computers were really growing and personal computer networking was, uh, uh, it was still a grassroots effort in a lot of locations. Again, mainframes ruled the world still. But I was given the opportunity to go work for the systems engineering group and switch over to computers at this point. And again, this is probably the first time I'm in my career where I actually consciously sat down and, and, and looked at what I thought the market opportunity was, right. And I remember thinking, okay, personal computers growing, potential market. You know, a couple hundred million, you know, personal computer or more in the U. S. alone. Um, well, that's a big market that's going to need a lot of help and a lot of support and a lot of, and a lot of opportunity given what I, I, I thought I saw in terms of what they could do. So I, I, I made the deliberate choice to, to switch over to computer networking. Um, and I worked at the NIH first for them and then I left and they brought me back as a project manager, uh, permanent full time. And then. I, I wanted to spend some more time in the commercial world. So, um, I, I took a job helping run the Microsoft consulting practice for a, for a, a small consulting company, but, um, in the DC area. But NIH followed me as a client. Uh, and they kept following me, and then I started my own company, uh, and they followed me along And, uh, uh, it's finally when, um, you know, we, you know, we started again. We started Bri and, and NIH was a client of mine all the way up. Even actually after Virtustream, we, we sold slash merged Bri into Virtustream and I, it's followed me as a client and I probably didn't stop having NIH as a, as a client until 2010. So I, I worked in some shape or form with, with the NIH from 1989 to 2010.

Tim Winkler: 00:12:40

Wow. It's always nice too, when you're starting a business, uh, having a client, uh, already kind of teed up. Right?

Matt Theurer: 00:12:47

Oh, that, that, that, um, that took a lot of load off and, uh, and certainly made the decision because, uh, to start that company. So, so my business partner and I, when we started Bri, Um, you know, we, we, we made a, you know, sat down for, you know, probably a good year before we actually officially started the company, because we had left our, we both worked for this previous company, um, uh, which had been acquired. Um, in a joint venture by two larger companies, neither of whom we wanted to work for. Um, but our former owner, our former boss was the litigious sort. So we, we honored our one year non compete for two years. Um, and then we, we, but we planned out what we wanted to do. And. Um, you know, we started Bri is what I'd call a lifestyle business, right? Where it was really just focused on, you know, it's a small, small business. Let's make sure we're, we're doing enough to do what we need to do as individuals. We were starting families, but we started it with personal checks and guarantees against our house, our house, I should say. So, uh, yeah, having, having some customers already ready to go. Made a world of difference

Tim Winkler: 00:13:55

in, in making that decision. Absolutely. I bet. Sounds like a high risk tolerance as well. I always ask this question to, to entrepreneurs, you know, was there a, um, uh, a history of, of entrepreneurs in your family? Uh, any parents that were entrepreneurs at what kind of, you know, gave you that bug to, to go out on your own?

Matt Theurer: 00:14:13

You know, I, I, I, I wish I knew the answer to that, because I'm going to say no, I'm the only one of my siblings who started a company. Um, in fact, my, my father, um, worked for the, the federal government for his entire life. Um, well, I should say he started off working for the government of California, state of California, early in his career, but he was, uh, as a PhD in fluid dynamics. And, and that's where I got my love of computers and math and engineering was from him. But no, he was, uh, uh, he was a government employee his whole life. The only person, he was the first person in his family to graduate college, let alone get an advanced degree. But, uh, I, I don't know. I just, I, for me, it's, it, it does, that curiosity has driven me in so many ways. Now, my entire family, all of my siblings, extremely curious. Uh, and my brother, one of my brothers is an engineer. The other is in technology as well. Computer programming. My. Um, my sister's a advanced degree in theology. My other sister was a medical technologist and my other sister, I'm the youngest of six, by the way, um, uh, is, uh, is, is a lawyer. Uh, the one brother who's an engineer is also a former weapons systems officer, flew F 111s, uh, from the Air Force. But even as kids, we were very curious and we were constantly taking things apart, uh, much to our mother's chagrin, right? Cause we would decide we wanted the motor out of the can opener. Um, it should come home. And there's no can opener anymore, uh, or we would, uh, assemble, you know, trying to make three wheeled bicycles out of two wheeled bicycles. We'd build go karts. Um, you know, we built a replica of the Starship Enterprise bridge, uh, in a closet once, uh, you know, you know, anyway, very curious, but I'm the only, I'm the only one who started a company for whatever reason.

Tim Winkler: 00:16:03

So a cure, a curiosity, a curiosity that, that fueled, you know, a number of these ventures, it sounds like. You know, we kind of, uh, briefly touched on it, but, you know, Virtustream looks, uh, to be a successful, uh, venture that you eventually sell. Is that accurate?

Matt Theurer: 00:16:21

It is. It is. So, um, so Virtustream was really the, kind of the, the, the first company of which I was a co founder where we, we really went the, the, the VC route, right. Where we were looking to build the rocket ship and ride it. Um, we had very ambitious plans. Um, you know, so we were, we were going to build a global cloud business to support applications that were not designed for the cloud, again, things like SAP or, you know, Oracle financials or, or, or other things. Um, so we raised tens of millions of dollars right off the bat and we bought data centers and we bought companies. Um, and we started off with, uh, you know, two data centers in the U S and two in Europe. Um, and then we expanded into France and Germany and the Netherlands, uh, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Japan, Singapore, Australia. Wow. Um, and it was, it was all around just, you know, creating a technology to service these, these applications that were being ignored, these legacy applications that, that were being ignored. That everybody just said, they'll never run in the cloud. I, we were very successful. So, um, we started in 2009 and in 2015, we sold to EMC for 1. 2 billion in cash. It was a great day. It was, it was, it was a great day, right? There was, there was a lot of, uh, a lot of high fiving and a lot of woo hoo's going on in the hallways. I would hope so. And then, you know, so we, we spent the next year integrating into EMC, which was an interesting, uh, Um, uh, a whole interesting, cause you know, we were a startup when we were, but when we got acquired, we were somewhere between two and 300 people. Wow. Right. Um, and then, you know, the day after acquisition, EMC moved a whole lot of resources over to us and we were suddenly somewhere between 2, 500 and 3, 000 people. Um, you know, and we weren't, uh, we weren't living in startup time anymore. We were living into quarter based time. Right. What a, one of the quarterly reports going to Wall Street. 'cause we were suddenly part of a public company. Sure. Um, so a lot of integration, a lot of, a lot of work doing that. And, and the 2016 Dell buys EMC Right. For the, at the time, the largest transaction, uh, in the technology world ever. I think, I think it was $68 billion. Yeah, I remember that. It was a massive transaction. Yes it was. Yes it was. And, and, and all of the work we'd spent the previous year doing, integrating into EMC, we kind of reset the counter to zero. Um, and for a long time, it's only in the last year or so that, that, um, you know, the Vergestein brand was kind of just finally completely rolled into Dell technologies, uh, their services arm. Um, but yeah, we were a part and parcel of, uh, and a brand name under the Dell technologies group, um, up until I left in 2018. Yeah. Cause at that point I was, You know, I'd been, been part of a startup and running, you know, 70, 80 hours a week and all that since like 1999.

Tim Winkler: 00:19:32

Yeah, it was a fascinating transition. I always, um, you know, we do a lot of these episodes where, you know, I, I talked to folks that either came from big tech backgrounds to startups or, or startups that got acquired. Now they're in a big tech, you know, fortune 500 environment. Um, it's a very, very different culture and, you know, sometimes it doesn't sit well with folks, they, they get, they get this itch, right? They start to get a little restless being in the, in the, the walls of the, that large corporate environment. It seems like that was the case for you. I was tracking your, your LinkedIn. I found a, a, a, a fun, a fun little bio from 2018 to 2020 where it, it says, uh, Yeah, I'm open to helping an existing company start up, or I may decide to start yet another company. I'll let you know. Yeah. But, uh, it seems like there was some foreshadowing there because, you know, not far after that, you know, you, you start Hyperspectral. But what, what was, uh, uh, we'll get to that in just a second. But between the, those years of 2018 to Uh, you know, founding Hyperspectral, what, what was, what was on your plate where you take some time off or what was, what was going on?

Matt Theurer: 00:20:39

So I took some time off again, cause it had been, um, like I said, I, I needed some time to rest and recoup and in a lot of ways, kind of spend some time with my family and you kind of get to know them as well, cause I mean, there was, there was a couple of years in there. I traveled like 40 some odd weeks a year. Um, and, and I also decided that I wanted to accomplish a life goal. And I got a pilot's license during that time. But, you know, shortly after I was off for a couple of months, you know, I'm starting to, starting to, to, to get restless and I'm like, all right, I need to go, there's a couple of things I want to accomplish. One, figure out what is that next big change in technology. Uh, and two, um, you know, at Virtustream, there were five co founders and, you know, we all had, uh, things that we were particularly good at. Um, so we let the people who are good at things deal with what they dealt with. Now, um, I realized running a business and going the, the route that we had trying to, to build these rocket ship businesses and, and raise money, there were things I needed to learn, um, about that kind of aspect of a business. Um, so I decided to go back and, uh, go get my master's, my MBA, uh, during this timeframe, so I went to MIT, um, for a couple of reasons. Um, One, not only just to get the MBA, but, uh, to get into that ecosystem up there in Cambridge, which is, um, you know, a lot of universities have, have, um, ecosystems these days around entrepreneurship and incubation, which didn't exist when I was an undergrad, or if they did, I wasn't aware of them. Um, but I wanted to get ahold of that ecosystem because now, if you want to find technology, uh, you know, you want You know, the first, the first names that, that kind of university names that come to your mind here in the United States will be Stanford and MIT. Yep. Right. Those, those are the, uh, those are the big ones. So, um, so I'm like, all right, let me, let me do that. Right. And, uh, so I, I got my, uh, uh, got my master's, uh, and I started looking around and at that point I'm like, okay, fundamentally, Artificial intelligence and machine learning are going to be for me, the next big technological shifts. Now, artificial intelligence, at least as a theoretical concepts has been around since the 1960s. Right. Um, but what lacked up until call it the last 10 years, uh, has been the compute power, uh, the, the, the physical hardware computational capabilities to really Drive and, and create artificial intelligence capabilities. Um, you know, that existed now. Uh, and I'm like, all right, I want to, I want to, I want to start. Uh, I want to do something with, with artificial intelligence. Now I've also lived my life with the mantra that technology for technology's sake, we'll never go anywhere. Um, and the, the world is littered with really cool technologies that are sitting on the floor someplace because they don't solve a problem. Um, and, and technology has to solve a real world problem for it to, to, to get out there and get adopted. Um, again, otherwise it's just gonna be a really cool widget sitting on the shelf someplace. So I'm like, okay, AI is going to change the world, but what, what problem am I going to try to solve with it? Uh, and I, and I was talking to some classmates once, uh, one evening in a bar, um, as you know, classmates are one to do, uh, and, uh, you know, And we actually decided to transform a company, um, focused on using artificial intelligence to, um, to affect advertising, right? Could we, could we dynamically change the content in streaming video so that the content is integrated into the video, um, but personalized to the viewer. So, you know, I'm looking at your video, uh, video stream here. Now there's a picture behind you on the wall. You know, maybe I would see a poster for Starbucks. Uh, the person watching the same video next to me would see a poster for Dunkin Donuts, right? Or the actor would interact with, you know, the Starbucks or Dunkin Cop or a Coca Cola or whatever. Um, so AI was used to identify the locations and do all the work, you know, angles, skew, color. Hey, is this product that we were trying to assert appropriate to the timeframe, right? You know, you're not going to put a Cheerios box in a 1500s period piece. Right. Kind of. Um, we got the technology working. Um, it actually had some interest and we're talking to, to folks, uh, and then, uh, this little thing called, uh, COVID came along and, uh, shut the world down, everybody's advertising budget from, you know, whatever to zero, uh, we're, uh, we're, uh, a, uh, supply multiplier, right. Um, in a world where demand has gone to zero, uh, and it doesn't take an advanced degree in business to realize that, uh, increasing supply when demand has gone to zero is, uh, is a quick route. Quick, quick route to, uh, bankruptcy. So, uh, we've Doesn't take an

Tim Winkler: 00:26:03

MIT degree for that one.

Matt Theurer: 00:26:04

No, it did not take an MIT degree for that one. Um, and, but then, you know, during the pandemic and I spent some time engaging myself with, with doing other work that had AI related to it. Like I ran operations for an autonomous vehicle, um, autonomous shuttle company, um, you know, during this time. But, you know, I remember thinking at one point during the pandemic that, wow, I'm sitting in a line for three hours. To have a swab shoved up my nose. Uh, and I'm going to find out three days from now that I was okay. Um, which did nothing to be able to get me back into work, back into kids, into school, right? It didn't actually do anything for me to, to allow me to continue to move my life forward. Right. So, you know, I, uh, I remember thinking this, this doesn't work for, for this to work, we need to have a way to detect whether people, whether it's Whether this pathogen exists, right. In this case, the COVID virus, um, it's gotta be fast. The test has to be fast. We gotta be able to get the results immediately at the edge. Um, and so that kind of inspired us and, and we kind of had the blessing of, of ignorance of microbi, microbiology. I'm an electrical engineer by degree and a technologist and the computer guy. Um, but I remember looking, we looked around, um, and we're like, all right. Um, what's way, what are ways to find pathogens? Where we could basically use physics and computers to help solve the problem as opposed to these traditional methods, which while highly accurate, were, were too slow to solve the problem. Uh, and we, we looked around, we like, Hey, spectroscopy right now, spectroscopy as a means of, of identifying, let's say bacteria. I found a paper from the 1890s, yeah, that 1890, not 1990s, 1890s, on using spectroscopy to identify bacteria. The problem has been historically from that perspective, um, that the machinery is very complex, uh, required very pure samples, you know, they're suitable for a lab, right? Um, the real world, right? You need to have this out in the field. Uh, and in the real world, I'm sure you can imagine there's a lot more in a nasal swab than the COVID virus, right? Um, oh, it's a very messy, noisy environment. And you have. Relatively weak signal to very strong noise, right? Which is traditional art. So we're like, all right, what if we can combine artificial intelligence to analyze this data, build models and, and really understand the data with spectroscopy. And there's been a lot of advances in spectroscopy. Like you can now actually do stuff in the field, relatively low cost. I mean, devices that used to be, you know, a quarter of a million dollars, you can now get equivalent performance for 10, 000. It doesn't solve the noise problem, but it does make the cost of data acquisition. Um, we've got ubiquitous broadband, low latency connectivity to push large amounts of data back and forth. So you can now do stuff at the edge. We have massive amounts of compute to, to run these kinds of models and process them in, in all these cloud data centers around the world. Um, Let's try to solve the problem of rapid pathogen, pathogen detection. Now, luckily COVID, you know, um, as a problem that needs testing has gone away. And, and, you know, thank God for that. And I'm knocking on wood and, you know, to, uh, that we don't have another pandemic though, I will say we've had five pandemics since 2000, I think we had two in all of the 1900s. Right. So don't think that's the last one. I'm going to see in my lifetime. Um, but the problem of being able to rapidly detect pathogens as we found out, you know, it exists in a lot of industries or I should say rapidly find hazards, but we'll just start off with the concept of bacteria. Um, you know, and I, we started looking into what are the, what are the best places to do that? Right? Well, obviously human health, right? Hey, I've got a staph infection. Is it, Is it, uh, MRSA, the, the antibiotic resistant version of STAP, or is it the antibiotic susceptible STAP in, you know, in my postoperative wound or, or the cut I got? Um, or, you know, do I have a strep throat? Do I have, uh, you know, do I have a urinary tract infection, right? Human health is, is a very obvious use case for it. Highly regulated environment, right? For good reason, uh, with having to get FDA approval. Um, but as we looked into markets, you know, we're like, Hey, you know, food safety, much, much, much less heavily regulated, uh, there is actually no government regulation required to have a food safety test. Um, and the problem is growing, right. And it's growing for a couple of reasons. Uh, I mean, you could, you could, uh, make the statement that, um, you know, whether it's caused by climate change. Uh, or anything else, right? The truth of the matter is, is that there's a growing number of bacterial outbreaks causing sickness and death throughout the food supply chain. All you have to do is look at the headlines. Uh, and some really big, well known names are having this problem. Um, but even, even outside of a national scale problem, I know there was a food recall, uh, One per day from like December, the middle of December last year to the middle of January. Wow. Some place in the United States alone. Um, and that's a big problem. Um, you also have growing organic market, right? Where you traditional kill steps, use of chemicals and other things to just presumptively kill bacteria can't be applied anymore, right? It's because it's no longer organic, right? People don't necessarily want nasty chemicals, uh, in their food. So there's a growing market and a growing problem there. And interestingly enough, a lot of the bacteria that are problem in food are the exact same bacteria that are a problem in human health. So all the techniques and the data and the models that we've built, um, which we apply to food safety testing can apply to the human health use case as well. So we get a, basically we get a twofer in terms of. The processes, techniques, and models that we built. That's just the concept of pathogen detection, right? Now you can also start to look for molds, funguses, pesticides, anything else you don't want, uh, in your food or in your environment. And then, um, we started getting some interest from, um, from DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency. They're like, Hey, uh, can you use this to solve some secure supply chain issues, right, where can you prove that this stuff based on its spectral fingerprint. Um, is what it's supposed to be and coming from where it's supposed to come from. And the answer is yes, you can do that. Uh, in fact, one of the biggest things that keeps me up at night is making sure we maintain focus because there's so many use cases where the, the combination of, of, um, artificial intelligence with spectral data. Um, I got, I got asked by a company contacted that, okay, could you use this You know, turbine blades in offshore windmills to see developing, you know, craps. And I'm like, uh, yeah, I could, but I'm not going to right now. I've got, I've got other things I need to do. You can apply this to a heavy industry, right. In coolant or oil analysis. Or, I mean, there's all sorts of use cases for it, quality control and manufacturing. The key for us. Again, is, is actually not in the hardware, in the spectroscopy hardware itself. It's, it's in the software layer, um, is every use case, you know, that you talk about, um, you know, maybe I need to use one sort of spectroscopy versus the other, whether it's absorption or FTIR or surface enhanced Raman or plain old Raman. There's, there's so many different forms of spectroscopy. And there's different hardware vendors that are, it's applicable for different use cases, but that kind of backend platform, that process, that software, there's models and engines that we develop apply across all of them. We work with multiple sources of hardware for different sorts of use cases. In fact, for the same use case, we can work with the same, with different pieces of hardware, you know, provided that, uh, you know, they have the same, you know, we'll call it roughly the same set of capabilities from the hardware, because for us, again, it's all about the software layer and it enables a broader set of use cases. We're looking for partners who, who have a problem we haven't thought of that they can leverage our software and our platform to go solve their problems.

Tim Winkler: 00:34:59

Yeah, it's interesting. I was reading that it's a hardware agnostic solution, which is, you know, really opens you up to so many, so many different partners and opportunities. So just kind of like retracing that story, you know, COVID kind of killed one business, but created a new business, uh, right before your eyes, which is, which is a fascinating timeline. The, the, the, you know, it sounds like you were kind of scratching your own itch there with the idea of. You know, slow, slowness of COVID testing results, which is, which is also very interesting when you started, um, hyperspectral, you know, did you, or are these co founders, uh, that you met alongside MIT? Tell me how you kind of came, uh, came about with your co founders.

Matt Theurer: 00:35:45

Sure. So, uh, Um, that depends on which one you want to talk to. So one of them, um, was actually a venture, a limited partner in one of the VC firms that helped fund Virtustream.

Tim Winkler: 00:35:59

Yeah.

Matt Theurer: 00:36:00

Um, and that's how I knew him. And, and, and we, we, we got in touch that way. Um, and we were talking about this problem and, and, you know, that's how we moved forward. He introduced me to the, my COO and co founder, Lauren. Um, And then I actually brought in one of my, not only an MIT classmate of mine, but it was actually also a co founder of Virtustream as well, uh, along for the ride. Um, so we have definitely leveraged the network that I've built, um, both from previous entrepreneurial experiences, as well as MIT. There's, there's several, um, several, uh, uh, MIT EMBA alums. Um, Uh, here at, uh, here at Hyperspectral, just because, you know, Mon, I mean, first and foremost, they have the skill sets we need, uh, to, you know, you know, having people you've known and work with, work with and know that you can work with is really important, right? I mean, startups are stressful, um, you know, uh, and, uh, take a lot of work. So having people that you, you already know, you know, and you trust,

Tim Winkler: 00:37:05

It's really important for them to be successful. Yeah. Especially in those early stages, making those key, those key hires, having that network, uh, is super valuable. So when, when you first started, you, you, uh, did you focused in on human health or food health first?

Matt Theurer: 00:37:22

Well, we were, we were originally looking to solve the COVID problem. Um, but we looked at the market and said, all right, that's, that's going to go away. Um, so what is the, what is the, the. The market that's going to have, um, the lowest barrier to entry that has a sufficient, um, total adjustable market and service adjustable market, um, that hopefully, you know, we can then basically double dip on the data, right. And use it to solve other problems. Right. And that's where food came up as, as the most logical, um, the most logical starting, uh, beat at market for us, because again, we could re leverage all the work and the data, um, You know, for human health, uh, lightly regulated enough that we weren't going to have significant regulatory barriers, you know, cause I got that question a lot when I was talking to VCs. They're like, why would you pick food? Right. That's, that's a relatively low thin margin business. Uh, and, uh, I'm like, it, it is. But here's, here's where we address a lot of their problems, lowering their costs. Um, you know, they can to, uh, you know, not have these, um, loss of shelf life by having to, to wait to ship, you know, all sorts of financial benefits to the food world and low barrier to entry regulatory wise. And Hey, I can reuse all this data and everything that we did to, uh, Uh, into human health and then they're like, Oh, okay. That makes a lot of sense. Then

Tim Winkler: 00:39:02

it's a smart, it's a smart, uh, pivot, uh, but beyond that, right. You know, it kind of, you alluded to it briefly, uh, with the, uh, a recent, uh, pilot program with DARPA. You know, we constantly are hearing a buzz around dual use startups these days. We've had multiple founders from dual use, a lot of venture partners actively investing in dual use kind of previous guests on this show. Um, explain to me a little bit about how HyperSpectral has made that decision to expand from You know, maybe some of these commercial markets into government. Was it something where you were approached or did you kind of design a team to go expand into some of these other more regulated government markets? Um,

Matt Theurer: 00:39:45

so, I, I, so we, we were, we were somewhat opportunistic in that, in that matter. Right. Um, so we were certainly having conversations with various government agencies. There's a lot of, um, there's a lot of interest, um, whether you're talking about BARDA, which is the Biomedical Advanced Research Development Authority or ARPA H, which is the Advanced Research Project Agency Health or DARPA. Um, in a lot of use cases and sometimes overlap, um, that we could apply our technology to, right? So Um, they've all published what they call BAA or broad agency announcements saying, Hey, we're interested in, in people to apply for grants to solve, you know, these kinds of problems. And we're like, well, you know, check, check, check, check, check. We can, you know, let's pick the ones we want to go for. Um, but also from a DARPA perspective, um, one of our employees, um, had some previous history working with DARPA at a previous company, uh, and, uh, had some contacts there. Um, so we really, we went in and we just, uh, gave them a kind of an overview of the technology in general. Right. Um, and it really perked up their ears, um, around, um, you know, the potential. Right. And that's really what I think these, these, uh, government agencies are looking for are, Hey, this is really interesting, you know, maybe I don't have that exact problem, but can you apply your technology to apply this other problem we have? And that's what DARPA came back and said, and said, well, Could you address this problem? Uh, and we took it away and, and, uh, thought about it and we kind of sketched out the approach that we will take to solve their problem. We went back to them and we gave them more like, here, here's a, you know, a couple of pages proposal, you know, cut us a, cut us a, a, uh, relatively small, what they call a flex contract. And we'll give it a shot. And that's where it's like a grant of sorts or yeah. Yeah. It's effectively a grant. Uh, proof of proof of concept that the technology can solve the problem. And then they, they tend to grow from there, right? Once you show, Hey, I, yes, I can solve this problem. And then you start to dive into, we'll call it more specific uses. Um, so DARPA has a lot of, a lot of interests. Um, you know, some of which are really interesting, but aren't necessarily commercially viable. I'm sure you're going to. They're interested in some say pathogens that you would not necessarily look for. Uh, you know, that, you know, if they start showing up in hospitals, it, it means somebody's

Tim Winkler: 00:42:21

done

Matt Theurer: 00:42:23

something we really don't want them to do kind of, but, um, you know, but they just grow, right. As, as, and when you've got a technology that's as broadly applicable and flexible, you know, you get, again, it's not just dual use, it becomes, you know, You know, multi use, I mean, yeah, we can talk about quality control, quality assurance, manufacturing, materials provenance, um, you know, pathogen hazard detection, right? There's so many things that we can do with it.

Tim Winkler: 00:42:53

And that's where, you know, coming back to your, your, uh, comment about staying focused is so essential because you could easily find yourself spread so thin chasing so many different projects that before you know it, you just don't have the capability to solve all those problems. So. It's a, um, it's certainly, uh, something where it sounds like you're, you're really kind of, you know, keeping your team, uh, you know, heads down in a couple of key areas, really proving out, uh, the, the technology and the solution in those areas and expanding, you know, at a slower clip and.

Matt Theurer: 00:43:26

Uh, absolutely. It's all about, you know, uh, as I've talked to one of our VCs and board members, uh, it's a sequencing, it's, it becomes a sequencing problem, right. Uh, or they didn't say a problem. It's a sequencing task, right? Right. Or set of tasks, right? You just, you just build and build and build the technologies and build the capabilities and the layers of what you want to do. Um, and, and that's, that's what we're doing.

Tim Winkler: 00:43:52

And so I got just a couple of quick hit questions, um, around where the company is at, at this point, and then we will kind of close with a fun little segment called the five second scramble, have a, have a little bit of fun with some, some Q and A, but tell us a little bit about like, uh, your current headcount, uh, where you're at, uh, funding and, you know, where are you guys based out of? Are you hybrid, uh, in office, remote?

Matt Theurer: 00:44:15

Sure. So, um, we're about 12, 12 people. Uh, we have a couple of contractors as well. Um, we closed our series A in May. Uh, and of course, you know, anybody who's ever raised money from VCs, as soon as you, as soon as you, you, uh, you go through closing, you start planning your next round, right? And, uh, so, uh, we're, we're currently looking to do a series B probably mid next year, that would be the goal. Um, And, uh, we're technically headquartered in, uh, Alexandria, Virginia, uh, which is actually where I am today. Uh, I live in Maryland, by the way. Um, we are actually, we have historically been very spread out around the country. Um, we are actually concentrating a lot of our technical work, um, out of the engine up in Cambridge, part of the, the MIT engine, uh, up in Cambridge, Massachusetts, um, you know, unlike a lot of tech companies today. Um, you know, we're not just purely software based, though, that's our primary focus. That's where our value is, but we are dealing with a multidisciplinary approach, right? So, um, you know, microbiology, sample collection, bacteria, viruses, uh, funguses, molds, etc. So you need to have lab space. Um, uh, so that's, that's where having a facility, an incubator, You know, like the engine become very, very useful. And so we're concentrating up there. I do have, uh, uh, for, for roles that, you know, aren't as critical to be in the same location. Like I've got, you know, machine learning folks, AI folks down in Texas, in Washington state, uh, my chief science officers outside of LA. My chief medical officer, um, is, uh, out of Ohio. Um, so, so we are distributed, but. We are coalescing around, um, uh, around

Tim Winkler: 00:46:10

the, uh, the Cambridge ecosystem right now. That's great. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's nice to, to have some central locations though, where, you know, it sounds like if it's MIT area, the, that folks can kind of congregate, come together, exchange ideas. Um,

Matt Theurer: 00:46:24

yeah, that's

Tim Winkler: 00:46:25

really

Matt Theurer: 00:46:25

important to me. Uh, I've always found that. You know, face to face physical interactions, right? You know, water cooler conversations, the, Hey, let's walk down the street and get a cup of coffee and chat about things. You get so, so many good ideas and so many aha moments come out of those, those kind of random interactions. And I really encourage that. And not, not only that, do you get these ideas, but you build a sense of teamwork and camaraderie when you actually get a, You know, break bread with people or physically interact that it's hard to do over, over, uh, technological means. I don't mean, maybe that's just my age showing. Right. But I just, I have found that. That, uh, you, you can't beat those actual physical

Tim Winkler: 00:47:20

interactions. Right. So, yeah, I've had, uh, uh, a couple of entrepreneurs called those, those magical, those magical moments when you're just kind of crossing paths in the hallway or at the water cooler where, you know, something, you know, something said, and it leads to that next thing, you know, and, and, you know, I, I, I, you know, in the world of recruiting where we spend a lot of our, our focus, we We have certainly seen that, uh, as an early stage startup, it's, it's a lot more difficult, uh, to, to drive that innovation when you're fully remote. And I think we're seeing a lot of that coming back to office from, you know, big tech, uh, right now. Um, and I'd imagine, you know, it, it'll probably, it'll never be what it once was, but there will, will need to be a, a, a time and place for folks to come together in person.

Matt Theurer: 00:48:09

I, I, yeah. You're, you're preaching to the choir there.

Tim Winkler: 00:48:12

Yeah,

Matt Theurer: 00:48:13

it's funny. I, I actually spent some time talking to my, uh, my eldest daughter especially, and her, her college roommate. She's a, she's a junior at, at CU Boulder right now. And I'm like, you know, when you're looking to go out on the job, I mean, what are you looking for? And it's what I, and I had some conversations with some other kind of younger folks entering the workforce. They don't, the folks I've spoken to don't have an objection to going into the office. What they have an objection to is being told they have to and have no flexibility. Um, and then what I'm trying to engender from a culture perspective is giving them the flexibility, um, to do that. Uh, and I think a lot of the problems we hear about, uh, that get written up and sensationalized in the news around the battle over coming to the office or coming not It'd really be resolved if we all just sat down and looked at each other and said, well, what is it you're really asking for? Right. Right. Finding and asking for flexibility.

Tim Winkler: 00:49:11

Yeah,

Matt Theurer: 00:49:11

I can do that.

Tim Winkler: 00:49:12

Yeah. I think that's a, a number one trait that, uh, you know, startup founders are starting to realize they got to have a little flexibility to work with the next workforce here, so. Um, well, exciting stuff, you know, we'll, we'll obviously continue to, to track the story and it sounds like, you know, growth is, is actively happening. So we're excited for the, the work that you're building. We're going to transition and close the, the, the episode with a quick segment that we call the five second scramble. We're going to start with some, some questions about, uh, hyperspectral as well, and the culture, and then we'll, we'll have a little bit of fun on some personal questions, but, uh, are you ready to, to, to jump in?

Matt Theurer: 00:49:48

I'm ready to

Tim Winkler: 00:49:49

jump in. All right. So, um, explain hyperspectral to me as if I were a five year old.

Matt Theurer: 00:49:56

We analyze light to find things that you can't see.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:03

What's your favorite part about the culture at hyperspectral?

Matt Theurer: 00:50:08

My favorite part of the culture at hyperspectral. Is the high degree of trust that we exhibit in each other's capabilities.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:20

What type of technologist thrives at Hyperspectral?

Matt Theurer: 00:50:25

The curious who always question the what and the how.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:31

I had a feeling curious was going to come up in that answer. Um, what, what are some of the, the top kind of tech roles, or maybe not just tech, but you know, top roles that you're actively hiring for today?

Matt Theurer: 00:50:43

Oh, uh, always looking for, um, really good artificial intelligence folks, uh, in the tech world. But also we're looking for experts in, there's a very specific field called chemo, chemometrics, um, and chemometrics all about the hard data that, um, and the scientific data that comes out of chemical and biological interactions. Uh, so, so chemometricians, uh, and spectroscopy experts.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:16

What is a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Matt Theurer: 00:51:23

Um, wow, there's, there's, there's a lot. I have a, I have a soft spot in my heart for, uh, for anything that affects children. Um, and also, uh, quite honestly, um, I've, I've, I've recently started, uh, fostering a rescue dog. And, uh, yeah, that, uh, that, that little dog I've had for a month has, has wormed her way into my heart. She's a little, uh, she was found, uh, abandoned and, uh, badly wounded and they amputated her leg and, uh, now she's barreling around on three legs. Um, so, you know, fostering rescue

Tim Winkler: 00:52:01

dogs is another one. That's great. Yeah. I've got a soft spot for, um, you know, animals as well. And my wife and I were just talking about this about anytime we see a dog with, you know, out there on, on three legs, or maybe they got the little wheel, the wheelchair on the back. Yeah. I mean, just kind of gives you some inspiration of like, wow, you know, that dog's pushing through it, biting through it.

Matt Theurer: 00:52:21

Oh, it is that, that the dog we're rescuing, she's, I mean, If you did not know or could not see the fact that she's missing one of her front legs. I mean She doesn't know she doesn't have right. Yeah, right. She doesn't allow it to to stop her.

Tim Winkler: 00:52:39

Very cool Uh, well good good good on you. Um Briefly describe your your morning routine.

Matt Theurer: 00:52:46

Uh, so, uh easily up, uh, somewhere between 6 6 30 a dog out. Um You know dog back in to eat Uh, I try to, uh, grab a shower. Um, I actually have a series of games that I actually play to start the day. Uh, like some things on the New York Times, games, Wordle. Wordle's one of them. Wordle, Connections, uh, the mini. Yeah. Um, and then I like to play the, the, the, the, the daily challenges on Microsoft Solitaire. I know that sounds really dumb. But it allows me to set my mind and, and get myself kind of just how I get myself in the, in, in the, in the frame of things, a lot of times I'll take the dog for a longer walk outside in the woods someplace. And then I'm down to work, right? Cook some breakfast, uh, whether it's that oatmeal or that, that special sandwich, uh, and I'm off to work.

Tim Winkler: 00:53:43

Love it. Yeah. Uh, the connections game my wife and I play it every, every morning. It's a good, it's a good one to get the, the wheels turning. It is. Um, if you could have dinner with any tech icon, current or past, who would it be with?

Matt Theurer: 00:53:56

Oh, wow. That's not a fair question. Can I have a group dinner? Um, uh, tech icons, past or presence. Oh, cheesy peasy. Um, you know, I'm going to go with, uh, I'm going to go with Bill Gates. If I, if I only have to give you one, I'll go with Bill Gates. If you, uh, if you give me a group dinner, it'll be Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, uh, Steve Wozniak, uh, Hewlett and Packard. Um, you know, probably Michael Dell, uh, you know, um, Zuckerberg, uh, Sergei, uh, from Google, folks from Google.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:42

You got a full house right there?

Matt Theurer: 00:54:43

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. that be, uh, Eric Schul did be, that might be, uh, that might be a dinner where things start getting thrown across the table. yeah. Come

Tim Winkler: 00:54:53

quickly. Um, okay. Last couple of ones here. What is, uh, the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed? Oh, geez. Knit ties, Okay. We, we know what, uh, headshot, uh, photo we're gonna use here for your, for your episode placeholder. What was your dream job as a kid?

Matt Theurer: 00:55:16

Oh, my dream job as a kid. Uh, honestly, something where I got paid a lot of money for, uh, for ripping things apart and rebuilding them into things that nobody would ever use. Right? I mean, just, uh, You know, I'm doing my dream job at this point. I, you know, I don't know that I would have, you know, when I was 11, if I would have said that's my dream, but I'm, I'm getting to do my dream job now, which is take advanced technology and apply it to problems that really affect a lot of people.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:48

Yeah. Well said. Uh, well that's a, that's a good note to kind of, to wrap on. So I just wanted to, to thank you for, for spending time with us, Matt, uh, excited for the future of what you all are building at, at Hyperspectral and, uh, you're a, uh, an inspirational entrepreneur, so we're rooting for you all and, and, uh, thanks again for hanging with, with us on the pod.

Matt Theurer: 00:56:05

Oh, I really appreciate it. Thank you. It's been my pleasure and my honor.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:09

Take care.