Navigating Defense Innovation: Collaborative Piloting with the U.S. Navy & Startups | The Pair Program Ep50

Tim Winkler: 00:00:00

Today's episode is brought to you by JDSAT. Unlock your organization's full potential with JDSAT, where data meets decision making. Led by a team of distinguished retired military professionals, JDSAT brings precision to your business challenges through advanced operations research and data science. Whether it's optimizing business operations or enhancing workforce planning, JDSAT's trusted experts employ cutting edge analytics to reveal opportunities and drive success. Experience actionable, timely and affordable solutions tailored to your needs. JD sat, expanding insight, defining success, ready to transform your business. Visit JDSAT.com today. Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of hatchpad. And I'm your other host, Mike Ruin. Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth. Welcome back to The Pair Program. I'm your host, Tim Winkler. Today is somewhat of a bonus episode on the show. Uh, most of our listeners might notice that my cohost, Mike Gruen is not on this one, uh, reason being we've got a full plate of a few extra special guests joining us. Uh, so I'm going to run this one solo and, uh, just try to make this discussion as efficient as possible. Uh, today we're going to be, uh, diving deep into the theme of innovation within the defense sector. Uh, joining me are some really excellent guests, uh, kind of at the forefront of pioneering defense tech, uh, specifically across the U S Navy. So we have Justin Fanelli, the acting CTO of the Navy, Katie Wildman, a senior technology strategist supporting the Navy, and Colin Gounden, the founder of VIA. So we're going to be discussing some of the ways that the Navy is introducing tech innovation, like structured challenges or structured piloting approaches. Uh, challenges and successes with these methods and fortunate to have a firsthand example of a collaboration between via and the Navy. So let's just jump in. Um, before we dive in, we'd like to kick things off with our pair me up segment. Here's what we all kind of go around the room. Spitball a complimentary pairing of our choice. I'll lead it off quickly. Um, uh, so, um, I'm going to go with, um, online auctions and impulsive purchases. Uh, so my brother's one of these guys that's really big into like consignment stores and Facebook marketplace. Uh, so it was like someone who's always kind of looking for one of these deals and I don't know why, maybe hopes of reselling something. So this morning he tips me off to this online auction, uh, for sports memorabilia from this estate sale, uh, in Maryland. And I'm a fan of sports memorabilia, um, uh, and antiques and such, but so I hopped on by, this is my first time I've ever done like an online auction. And, uh, it was quite an experience. I mean, people are just kind of real time bidding with you and kind of have this anxiety of like, do I need this? Do I not need it? Um, ended up landing a few items. Um, I would say they were clearly impulsive buys, but, um, I'm glad I got them, uh, question mark, but, uh, um, I will say that it was a good experience. One of the things I got, I think it was, I thought it was pretty cool. It was a poster of, uh, Pele, uh, hugging Muhammad Ali that was signed by Pele. We'll figure something out to do with it. Um, but, uh, that's going to be my, my pairing, um, uh, online auctions and impulsive purchases. Let's pass it around, uh, to our guest, uh, Katie, how about yourself? Quick intro and your parent.

Katie Wildman: 00:03:53

Hey everyone. Um, I'm going to start with my pairing because I live in South Carolina and it's so fricking hot out right now that my pairing is iced coffee and a snow day. Cause I just. Run on coffee and could use some cooler weather. I, which, you know, sometimes it's just, it's hard in August, but my quick intro about me is just that I have past experience in the DOD department of defense and Intel space. Doing a lot of kind of all over the board program management and currently working with the pilot process at the department of Navy. So it's a super fun thing, but need coffee to keep running. So that's me.

Tim Winkler: 00:04:39

Yeah, that's Duncan. Uh, awesome. Nice to have you here, Katie. Justin, how about yourself? Quick intro and a pairing.

Justin Fanelli: 00:04:48

Yeah. Uh, so, uh, I love to be around, uh, Folks who make things happen. So I'm fortunate to be around three right now. And then anyone who walks by my car, cause that's where we're taking this podcast from, uh, so, uh, my, uh, my pairing is, uh, Tano covers, uh, and serendipity, Uh, so about 15 minutes ago, I walked out of a meeting, uh, uh, got into a cyber truck and on the screen it said, uh, tonneau, uh, open. And I said, what's a tonneau? And he said, Oh, that's the bed of the truck. And I joined a call and, uh, this was an engineering call and they were within the first five words talking about tonneau covers, and I said, Yeah, through 42 years, I've never heard this word and now I've heard it in 90 seconds. And the reason that that's relevant is, um, if you run in, uh, a diverse circles, uh, and you run with, uh, people who are, uh, making things happen, then, uh, I think the world gets smaller. And so, uh, you have, I see growth through community in the background, growth through diverse communities, uh, and the alignment possible. There is so special. And I don't, I don't think I've ever been around a more special set of communities. And then, uh, the more that they align kind of the, the better things are and the happier we all are. Good

Tim Winkler: 00:06:10

stuff.

Justin Fanelli: 00:06:11

Yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:06:11

We're, we're, uh, we're pumped to have you, Justin. I'm, I can also just vouch that Tano covers her. Pretty sweet. Got one on, on my truck as well. So it's, it's like one of the best things I'd say to, to my truck. Uh, cool. Colin, a quick intro, uh, and your parent, and then we'll jump into the discussion.

Colin Gounden: 00:06:29

Um, terrific. Um, I would say I was going to pick, uh, Netflix and Scandinavian serial killer series, but given Justin's, you know, comment about serendipity and diversity, I'm going to actually switch to diversity and common vocabulary, which is, we, you know, we try to hire a lot of people from different places, which is great, but if those people can't communicate, then that doesn't really work very well. So we actually have, like, we pick. Specific words that everybody needs to know and have the same common definition in order to make diversity work. It's like a little counterintuitive, but that's that's sort of a pairing that we've had to force here or make, you know, make institutionalize my background is 30 years in, uh, I. T. software technology had the opportunity to start and found 2 companies before selling both successfully and then co founded, uh, the, um, A few years ago, six, uh, seven years ago, uh, with a number of folks who I've worked with previously, and I'm just delighted to be here. Thank you for the opportunity, Tim.

Tim Winkler: 00:07:32

Yeah, yeah. We're pumped to have you as well. Uh, all right, great. Uh, again, everybody's, uh, rattled off their, their intros and parents. We're going to transition to the heart of the discussion now. So as I mentioned, you know, we're talking about innovation across defense and kind of breaking down how this can be achieved in a, a very large, regulated, sensitive ecosystem like the Navy. Um, so I think a good float for this combo will be breaking down, you know, Navy's mission of that need for innovation and then closing with the, the impact. Of that innovation, obviously using, you know, the, the VA use case, uh, we'll balance back and forth between all of our guests, uh, but I'd like to start with Justin and Katie, um, you know, how would you all summarize the Navy's mission and how does that mission intertwine with technology?

Justin Fanelli: 00:08:19

Sure. So just starting off, um, department of Navy, Navy and Marine Corps, right at the, uh, at the secretariat level, uh, to, uh, key services, uh, in the defense of our country, certainly. Um, and so. Uh, the, uh, it's hard to find just from a, they're our users, right? They're our customers. Uh, and so it's hard to find better people, uh, to serve, uh, this maritime mission, uh, the, uh, the utility of those two forces together. Uh, you know, uh, two thirds of the, uh, earth is ocean. Uh, and, uh, and then, uh, the rest is land. And so we have, uh, quite a bit covered, uh, in terms of, um, the actual services themselves, uh, uh, man, train and equip is the mission of the services. And, uh, and for some time now, uh, decades, um, since regulations put this into place, uh, we fight joint and, uh, and preferably, uh, we, um, deter. Uh, jointly, uh, that are one of our number one missions in terms of, uh, uh, like frequency, uh, is something called HADR. Uh, these are, uh, this isn't, uh, kind of like a, uh, an underrated or under known, uh, mission. So, uh, The idea of disaster recovery and, uh, and relief, uh, internationally is something that, uh, Department of Defense is, is widely involved in, um, and then, uh, I think the, uh, people see, uh, the huge ships, uh, people see the, uh, uh, the, uh, heroic stories of sailors and Marines. Uh, and so it's, um, quite a lot behind the scenes in terms of the digital aspects of enabling them, uh, to, uh, to be supported during, uh, cyber conflicts, uh, to, to concurrent conflicts in general. Um, and then all of the activities. involved with making sure that organizations run well. And if we hang out just for a second, we're thinking about, uh, department of defense and then federal as a whole. Uh, these are large organizations that number one are part of a public private mesh, Uh, we're connected. Innovation is, uh, more commercial than ever, uh, but it requires both of those players, uh, and then in terms of the federal as a whole, uh, it's a much more digital federal. And I think it, uh, we see that internationally, but. Uh, the way that we operate, the way that we move at speed, the speed of relevance, uh, upticking, uh, largely based on, uh, whether it's great power competition or what's happening in the world or just the speed of technology. Um, that's one of the reasons that we've tilted in the, in the direction of innovation and specifically innovation adoption, uh, over to Katie.

Katie Wildman: 00:11:05

Uh, I mean, Justin always says things so eloquently, but I was going to talk just about PEO digital. So that's one of the areas that we work with and they primarily focus on delivering digital and enterprise services to the entire, you know, sailors and Marines. So this is getting that it into everyone's hands. And so we really are making sure that. It's not just for some users, it's for all.

Tim Winkler: 00:11:32

Yeah, appreciate you pointing that out. Go ahead, Justin.

Justin Fanelli: 00:11:35

I was gonna say, um, uh, I love that my giveaways are so obvious at this point. Uh, I get excited. Um, so Program Executive Office, uh, Digital and Enterprise Services. Uh, within acquisition, uh, that's my original job. So, uh, tech director for that, that's where we have moved from, uh, program offices to portfolio management offices so that we can, uh, be more gardeners, uh, potentially than carpenters and make sure that we're surveying the land and figuring out what's ready to, to poach. And that's allowed us to get in touch with. More kind of performers, new entrants, partners in general.

Tim Winkler: 00:12:13

Yeah, I love that. And obviously we'll, we'll talk a little bit more about a specific use case like that with, uh, with Colin and via, um, yeah, we've seen a huge transformation in the last call it 10 years of this more open adoption to commercial tech and to, you know, federal and defense environments and. Um, you know, as someone who's been, you know, tapping the startup ecosystem for years, living here in the DC area, um, I think it's just a fantastic marriage, um, to, to kind of continue to. Push forward. Uh, so Colin, I'm going to pass it to you at this point. So you're building a commercial company, uh, with via, um, you know, it's clear why, you know, revenues and profits would matter to you, but can you expand on why aligning with a mission like that of the, of the navies would, would matter to you?

Colin Gounden: 00:12:57

Yeah, it's a great question, because I think, of course, uh, um, today there are a lot of companies, commercial organizations, right, that have missions, you know, via his mission is around cleaner, safer, more equitable communities, um, and enabling that through data and AI. Say that when we started, however, it was unusual for companies or commercial organizations to have a mission and unusual enough. There are actually 3 Harvard Business School case studies written about the founding of the, uh, and, uh, because, you know, normally we'd say, well, if you're. You know, if you're a commercial entity, why aren't you in fintech, right? Why aren't you in, you know, uh, there's a bunch of, you know, very profitable, big areas. And we made a choice, though, that, um, a number of us had had worked, uh, and been successful previously. And we wanted to make a difference in people's lives. And we felt like. This air emission driven organization, cleaner, safer, more equitable communities was kind of underserved. There weren't as many people, which creates a market opportunity, but it's a hard market opportunity. Right? Yeah. Um, there's a reason why it's often underserved because not everybody recognizes it. And we felt like, you know, if we don't step up, you know, who will. Right who is the right group to do that and. You know, I'd say the last thing is that, you know, if we've today, of course, you know, with so many companies having missions and starting to move into this area and defense being a bigger and bigger area for, for many companies say, you know, if we played even a small role in helping to inspire others to join this and make a difference, if this podcast helps, you know, spur any kind of company to say, yeah, I should really consider, you know, supporting defense. Then, you know, it's a little corny and cheesy, but you know, we help make the world a little better place. And, you know, we should all be proud of that and feel like that's a, that's motivated. That should be motivation enough for what we're trying to do.

Tim Winkler: 00:14:56

Yeah, we, we embraced cheesy on this podcast, so it's all, it's all good. Um, I wanna, I wanna quickly kind of just alter the conversation a little bit more into the area for, you know, this need for innovation in the Navy. Uh, Justin, you, you know, you've kind of touched on it with the, you know, the, the PEO digital, uh, Uh, creation and, and why is this so crucial to start to integrate these external partners like, like via, uh, into the fold and, and, you know, what kind of opportunities does this create for the Navy?

Justin Fanelli: 00:15:29

Yeah. Um, so I want to lean into the, uh, the cheesy, cause I think, uh, the idea of serving and showing that, um, uh, your granddaddy's government, uh, is, uh, is not something that, uh, is. Holding us back from delivering faster and from partnering with, uh, like we are, um, you see the people on the, like, these are people who could do anything in the world and they want to serve. And so I think the, one of the main reasons for that is, um, that, uh, people see the difference in terms of, um, uh, their hands in, uh, their, their work, uh, their products in the hands of, uh, people who are sacrificing and defending us. And then specifically on the innovation side, uh, innovation, very much a team sport and a contact sport. Uh, and so the, uh, the adoption piece. Involves a lot of different players. So, uh, defense innovation unit, DIU gets a lot of attention these days, rightfully. So, uh, they have helped us there, how we got to the VIA team. That was someone that, uh, that was a partner that we hadn't used before, both DIU and VIA, right? And so how we narrowed that funnel down, attracted outside. I mean, they're in Silicon Valley for a reason. They connect dots, another partner up now then two and six. So the operational Navy. Folks who are our requirements holder, uh, they have revised to top level requirements so that we can be more flexible and so we can use different types of tools, the less prescriptive it is, the more options that we have for industry to innovate and not feel handcuffed to deliver the desired outcomes that we want. And so one of the areas that we're thrusting on is, uh, how do we show the difference in mission outcomes versus how we're doing business right now, uh, to how we'd like to do business. Thanks. What are the game changers? What we're finding is if you have really good partners and really good tech and the operators are involved at the beginning, it's not 20 or 30 percent better. It's power laws, exponentially better. So we've seen cases where it's 300 percent better or even a lot more than that. And we want to demonstrate that so we can leap ahead. There's a book. Um, what is it? Uh, uh, Thanks for coming late. It's a Friedman book. I will put it in show notes, but, um, uh, sometimes there is an advantage to, uh, to being like, Hey, uh, sometimes I get feedback that inevitably government tech is 10 years behind, uh, that's not true. Uh, and we can show cases where. We are leaping ahead or adopting cutting edge because we're not going it alone.

Tim Winkler: 00:18:11

Katie, I love your input on this as well, since you're, uh, kind of sitting at the forefront of it, uh, on some of these programs.

Katie Wildman: 00:18:18

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think the biggest thing too, it's like, why are we evolving? Well, because tech is evolving and. We're dumb if we're not like all of our adversaries are doing that. So why are we not leaning in and utilizing what industry, what commercial has to offer, and then what also like the rest of the government has to offer, because we only know what we know. Um, so I think, yeah, with calling on like, this is the, Perfect use case of us leaning into something new are piloting process that we've done our structured piloting. We've only done this for 2 years and we're already seeing those outcomes and where. We are, you know, taking out, testing new capabilities and then getting it into the hands of the war fighters. So I can go more into structure piloting, but I don't want to jump on. So

Tim Winkler: 00:19:09

I've got that, uh, I've got that tabled, um, as the next talking point, but I do want to, uh, real quick, uh, pass it to Colin and Colin get your two cents on how you discovered the, like these innovation needs for the Navy.

Colin Gounden: 00:19:25

Um, Justin hit on this, which is, you know, DIU, the, you know, literally the internet. Literally we went online, we've been following DIU, the defense innovation unit, and they posted, uh, an RFP for a web three solution for data centric security. And we thought, Hey, that's what we do. This is a perfect for us. And now. It turns out that hundreds of other companies or many of these also thought it was perfect for them. So it's not, you know, it was, uh, uh, you know, it was competitive and there was a competitive process to go through to demonstrate that we knew something or would be a good fit here. Um, and, uh, you know, a short timeframes as well. So, Justin mentioned, uh, you know, government, you know, sometimes people have this perception, right? That government moves slow. That RFP process was 11 days from the time that it opened to the time we had to submit, right? That is a, I don't know, we work in the commercial sector, not a lot of companies, you know, have that short time. That is 11 elapsed days. That doesn't include weekends. Right. That, that includes the weekend. And so, um, we had a short cycle process and then we're on contract relatively fast and, um, you know, we're happy that the Navy selected us as the sole awardee for that. But it was a, it was a very, very positive experience. Right. And, but keeping an eye out, one nice thing about the government, which I, and, and defense, I think is. Yeah. There are a lot of needs, whether those requirements or outcomes that are public and available accessible versus, um, you know, in, in, uh, corporate world, actually, you, you're kind of guessing you have to be in close contact with customers, but you don't know, like, always what's, uh, what's required and, and, uh, and so I think there's an advantage actually to, to working with government from that perspective.

Tim Winkler: 00:21:11

Yeah, I want to dive deeper into the, uh, the piloting approach that, uh, you, you had kind of reference Katie. So, um, let's, let's kind of dive a little bit deeper into, you know, more specifically on how the impact of these innovations take place, um, how they scale and then kind of defining what success looks like in this context. So, What are these approaches that the Navy is taking to, to scale successful innovations across its operations? And this be a good leeway into the piloting approach.

Katie Wildman: 00:21:42

Yep, so we actually have 2 different approaches. We have structured piloting and structured challenges. So our structured piloting approach. This is us. Looking externally to industry to what others are doing, and then once we down, select items that would work best for enterprise wide, we start this pilot. And so. Our pilots are looking for something somewhere between 3 to 12 months. So we are rapidly testing out a capability. Usually it is a commercial off the shelf. So it caught solution. So it's already existing. Uh, so we're not building it, not taking all that extra time. And using that, and then we're testing it out, seeing if it is a viable use case. And then if it is, we are working to transition it into production to bring it to scale. At the same time, as we're doing that, we are looking in to divesting legacy technology so that we can reinvest it into these new technologies. So kind of this whole cycle of looking new, bringing in and then divesting, uh, while we're doing that. All of our tech, we are taking metrics. So something called world class alignment metrics or WAMs, Colin, here's that all the time for me and our meeting. Um, but we're really letting the data speak for itself. And so we are getting WAMs of the tech coming in, how it is, is through the pilot, and then we're comparing those WAMs to what's currently in, uh, production today, and so comparing those data points and then using those WAMs to either invest in the tech. Or in some cases, like we choose to not do those pilots and then we end up killing it, which is fine because we're still learning that what we have in our current environment is the best thing right now. So that is our structured piloting and how we kind of get new vendors in. And then in terms of structure challenges, this is when we're looking at what we have. In our current environment, and we are testing out new things, whether it's a hackathon or build a thon or comparing different types of competing priorities, we are doing those challenges so that we're constantly innovating and trying to get better. So, Colin went through our structure piloting approach in our 1st year and is currently in the process of. Working towards continuing, proving that out and then hopefully transitioning it.

Tim Winkler: 00:24:01

Colin, how, how was that experience going through the structure piloting? Uh, it was,

Colin Gounden: 00:24:06

uh, it was a lot of work. It's a lot of work. Uh, I will say, you know, uh, Katie mentioned one thing, which is, you know, it's a failure is okay. And my comment, I remember this being brought up and my, my response back is. You know, for, for Justin and Kate, if you're running a portfolio, failure is okay for you because you've got a hundred things and it gets down. Failure's not okay for us, right? Failure is not an option actually. Right. Which pushes, I think actually it's a good thing, which is it pushes us. Like we have to deliver, I don't have a hundred projects with the Navy, but this one, and it has to work. So there's a, there's a, I think an intensity about that pressure. Katie mentioned that timeframe too, right? Which is, um, you know, By the way, there's a, you know, you can do a lot in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, 12 months, but also the Navy is a gigantic organization with a lot of people, right? So it's not just like, oh, there's 1 person and we'll work with this 1 person. It's like, uh, there's, uh, you know, you mean, I want to say we met over a 100 different stakeholders, which is like a tiny fraction, right? There's a lot of different people you have to talk to and convince and, and I think that's a, that's a thing you need to keep in mind, right? As you go through the processes, there's a lot of stakeholder management to kind of, kind of make a difference. And then, um, the other, I think was, I think we loved the idea of metrics, right? So. You know, there are people like the, the world class alignment metrics that Katie was referring to. I think there are a lot of organizations that are, you know, Potter Stewart right there. They're like that. I know it when I see it and that's. Super unhelpful, right? As a, as a way, uh, because, you know, there's no alignment. I don't know. Right? I mean, you're always guessing whether you're there or not, whether you're making a difference, um, a book, uh, Justin mentioned a book at the outset of book. We, we. Encourage every single, you know, veneer to read is, um, how to, how to measure anything. And the background being, you know, we can measure, you know, we can measure dark matter, billions of light years away, and we can measure the speed of subatomic particles. So the idea we can't measure the difference that we're having in cyber security, or the difference that we're having around data, like some business outcome, that's laziness actually, right? It's like, there are met ways to measure these things, and we just need to be thoughtful about that. So we loved the measurement and metrics piece. I think that's what, um, you know, it's been, you know, it's been driving us and being helpful for, for our engagement. Uh, yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:26:50

I just want to dive a little bit deeper into, you know, these pilots, um, you know, say I'm a startup founder and I'm, I'm interested in, in participating. You know, I think you mentioned the length of them are three to 12 months. Are there different phases of, of these, uh, pilots and then. You know, what gets you to fit the next phase, uh, and what you can expect as you kind of graduate through these different stages.

Katie Wildman: 00:27:17

Absolutely there is because right. We'd love the art of the possible to be able to fund every new idea that's coming in. But unfortunately we all have a budget and we all have to stick to that. So these pilots are going to have different use cases, whether it is, you know, as Colin said, he only scratched the surface with a hundred people. Um, So figuring out like what that use case is, because what may work for one customer may be different for someone else. And so these pilots, if we're looking just through the lens of what we do at PEO digital, you know, we are looking for things that would scale enterprise wide, but you're going to test it on a smaller use case. And so you test the smaller use case, and then you're And I'm saying this all because we've done this for 2 years. So it's in an iterative process. So if you talk to us in 6 months, it may be more defined, less defined, changed around. Um, so I'm going to tell you where we are today, but that may not be the case in 6 months, which means we're being an agile organization and doing and learning from what we're doing. But so these pilots will test out, we kind of test the small use case that they came in for. That's where the whams come in. And then typically it is when we're moving into that production environment, then we're starting to ramp up. So we may do a few cycles of testing out the pilot, making it larger. We might start with 50 users and go to 100 and 200 and so on and so forth. There is some use cases where we come in for 50 users and then it's proven out. We could scale it to a million, you know, like it really does depend on the tech and where things fall. Uh, but that is where we really do work hand in hand with our partners at the Navy of, you know, bringing these vendors in, especially people that may not have been with the Navy before or may not have been in government. Uh, all of our, to get into the process, it is all public facing. Anyone can submit a lien business case and you do have to submit your WAMs. So told you, you'll hear this term a lot. Uh, but it's like on the public facing website, anyone can come in, submit it, and then it'll go through a review process. And then, you know, if it is deemed as a pilot that we want to invest in, you know, that is kind of how we go from there.

Tim Winkler: 00:29:35

Excellent. Justin, anything you want to add to that as well?

Justin Fanelli: 00:29:39

Yeah. I mean, just the, uh, the thoughtful approach that we've been fortunate enough to have some time to reflect on, um, allows us to simplify this story. So we didn't invent piloting. Uh, we've been doing piloting with partners for some time, but the idea of adding structure to it was intended to increase the accessibility. So we wanted to open up the aperture to partners that are potentially non conventional. Uh, we want more, uh, smart, uh, uh, American brains and, uh, partner brains on these problems so that we can solve these problems more effectively, faster in a game changing way. And so, for instance, um, when, when Katie says, uh, Hey, uh, failure is okay. The constraints around that or the, uh, the, uh, conditions around that are, uh, if we're not making the same mistake over and over again. Uh, and if we can kill something quickly, and if we can use the, uh, economics of capitalism to say that, uh, Colin doesn't want failure to be okay. And so how do we, uh, tune up and make sure that we're getting the most out of all of our partners so that they can, uh, serve in a bigger way than they otherwise would. And that. Uh, overall, the, uh, the outcomes overmatch compared to what a control group, uh, would be doing, uh, is available to more people as a result of that, uh, that sort of simplification, uh, we're able to share this. So, uh, we've worked with the army on some of these we've worked with. Uh, the special ops community, the air force, uh, is helping us with a number of things. So the, the ability to kind of connect dots and make the world smaller, uh, is something that we can do probably more effectively. Uh, just not just us, but our other PEO partners, PEO C4I is helping with these. You know, MLB is connected at the hip. So it ends up being a pretty big, uh, and enlarging ecosystem as a whole.

Tim Winkler: 00:31:38

But I want to, uh, you know, kind of kick it over to you, Colin, as well. So, you know, obviously we kind of talked a little bit about the, the, the scope and scale of, of working with the Navy or supporting the Navy, some. You know, 500, 000 people globally, you know, how do you kind of get on board with being able to support some, uh, an organization of that size? Let's just say this goes well and they want you to ramp things up. You know, how are you kind of, you know, internalizing this and preparing yourself for that type of scale?

Colin Gounden: 00:32:11

Yeah. Uh, you know, a couple of things. First is I think it's That question, by the way, is exactly the same question that the Navy asked us during the vetting process. And I want to say, Katie, you might have been in the room when. Michael S. had had brought this up and he had said very pointedly, it's like, how is it and. One of the things that we, you know, we said, look, if you're, if you can, you'd also pointed out like innovation matters and technology to solve it's like technology can help support and solve a lot of these issues. If literally you wanted a hundred thousand people or a thousand people to be online and help support the Navy, there are like a lot of organizations who can do that, right? There are whole services companies who are set up. That's basically the way, you know, defense contracting work for a really long time. Right. I think that our answer was, if you want what you already had, which is a thousand people to show up and build something and support you, then. There are a lot of people you should go to if you're looking for a different model, which is you want software systems that are going to be intuitive to use and intuitive to deploy and easy and not require a lot of training and where AI is involved in. So early days of actually where we actually showed some screenshots of, hey, this is how we would support you in 1st level technical support, et cetera. If that's what the direction you want to go, then we're a better choice about that. And we put our, uh, you know, we, from a contracting perspective, we said things like, hey, you know, we're going to offer you unlimited support, right? Not on a per seat basis. And that means we're highly incentivized to make the products self service and easy to use. And, you know, without, because otherwise like that, cause I, you know, we have to do it, right. That's putting our, that's it's making that bet. This is the right direction to go. I don't think a lot of companies would do that. And, you know, but they, uh, you know, we, we felt like. That was the, that's the best way to scale and, and frankly, 1 of the biggest reasons we were excited and motivated to work with the. With the Navy and with the large is, is that scale? Right? So, if we're, if our mission is around making communities, cleaner, safer and more equitable, then. Yeah, the Navy has literally the across the 2 and a half 1M people full time. Many more millions across. Across the globe, right across, uh, you know, across nato partners across. Indo pay com partners across, uh, contractors, et cetera. So. The idea that if we can have an impact here, we're really going to have, we're going to meet our mission and achieve our objective and have a lasting impact. That's that was exciting for us. So we're motivated to solve that problem.

Tim Winkler: 00:35:00

Very cool. Yeah. And I, I just want to, you know, ask one last question to Katie just prior to, you know, closing out with our final segment. Um, you know, where would some of these commercial companies go to maybe identify any resources where these solicitations are coming out? I think DI, you know, DIU has obviously been referenced, but are there any other specific, uh, areas that you would point folks to, to kind of see like what's coming down the pipeline, what they might expect in terms of opportunities?

Katie Wildman: 00:35:32

So twofold to this question, and it's not to be that standard government answer of like, I don't know. Um, but 1st of all, so with PO digital, we set up an innovation adoption kit. And so this is picture it to be the table of contents of here's what we do as a Navy. Here's, you know. The tax, the common, wow, can't say common taxonomy of the words that we use in the lexicon of here's what we do. Here's what we're looking at, but we don't want to tell what our problems are because we've been doing the same thing. And so we are really looking to these outside partners to tell us, right? Like, we may have a general idea or like, Hey, we're doing this, but this is even. With via, like they came to us and we're like, here's how you can do this better. Here's how you can, you know, the, um, analysis of alternatives AOA that was put out was so broad. Like, I think it was a page, maybe like a page and a half. Like we didn't give anything really. And so we really were looking to our partners to tell us how they could make us better. And I think that's the, almost the beauty in it is that. You know, we'll give you that table of contents of here's the general things that we have, but. We don't know what we don't know. And so that's, we're really leaning on them and their expertise.

Tim Winkler: 00:36:56

Awesome. Yeah, I love that before we kind of put a bow on it, anything else that you wanted to, to kind of put on, on the finishing touches of, of structured piloting, uh, Justin,

Justin Fanelli: 00:37:11

The more we use it, the better we get and, uh, we know that, uh, these things aren't easy, uh, but there's a book that was written while we were doing this. It's called, uh, Wiring for the Winning Organization by Gene Kim, same author who wrote Phoenix Project and, uh, uh, Maybe by no coincidence, um, that talks about, uh, simplification, slowification and amplification. And so we've kind of followed those steps to make sure that this is something that can spread far and wide. And as long as we have partners who are hungry, uh, open and, uh, and making things happen, uh, then we can serve harder and, uh, maybe smarter, even better, uh, than we had before, uh, uh, One thing the Marine Corps says is that they want to fight smarter, uh, and they are showing that, and we're working with them to do that. One thing that, uh, Navy says is, uh, get real, get better and more players on the field. And so, uh, those are things that were proven out, uh, in both cases with a lot of partners on these pilots.

Tim Winkler: 00:38:15

All right, we're going to, uh, transition to our final segment, which is the five second scramble. So it's going to a little bit of a rapid fire Q and a, um, some, some business, some, some personal, I'm going to start with you, Colin. Um, and then, uh, I'll switch over to, to Justin and Katie. So Colin, describe via to me as if I were a five-year-old.

Colin Gounden: 00:38:37

Uh, I'd say we're in the data protection space. You know, data can be stolen, can be misused, it can be manipulated, and we help prevent those things. What's the culture like at, at Via fabulous Uh, we spend, uh, I'd say unlike many companies, our side, more than 10%. Of our people, our people, people, our folks who are focused on culture values, getting back to Justin's point about diversity. When the more that you have people from very, very different backgrounds, the more you got to focus on. A cohesive structure, like any great team, like the Navy or military or your favorite Olympic sports team, cohesive culture matters. And so we focus a lot on. Values to demonstrate that, uh, you know, we're all pulling in the right direction. What kind of technologist thrives at via, uh, a curious one, um, something Katie said, which is you can't always know all the problems in advance. It's like, Got to have people who are naturally curious and want to solve problems and resilience is another because we have 15 issued patents wasn't because we have a research group. It's because no 1 had solved this problem before and we needed to invent a solution in order to get this done. And that's, uh. Yeah, it turns out you have to try a whole bunch of things that already existed to realize we got that. So resilient be another characteristic.

Tim Winkler: 00:40:07

What is a, uh, aside from your phone? What's a tech gadget that you can't live without? Oh,

Colin Gounden: 00:40:14

my gosh, uh, I'm a. I, so I don't use software side. I, I'm a big audible person. So I listen to audio books all the time whenever traveling. And I, so I don't, it's not a tech gadget, but it is basically that, you know, if I have one app that's personal, that's going to be the app that I probably use more. I have every badge on audible, which means there's like a hundred of them.

Tim Winkler: 00:40:39

Uh, all right. Last question for you. Uh, what's a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Colin Gounden: 00:40:47

There are a lot in, uh, Massachusetts area, I think that, uh, you know, but, um, the biggest 1, I think, is there's, um, uh, the, you know, we are from a national scale is things people would have heard of our United way. Right? That's probably the thing that we, you know, I don't think we support. Institutionally, everybody has their own thing, and we encourage people to do what's good in your to do their heart. The other is actually habitat for humanity where actually my oldest son worked for a year for habitat for humanity full time. So, you know, that would be the other big plug. I would make. Awesome.

Tim Winkler: 00:41:23

All right, Justin and Katie, I'm going to combo you both in, uh, and bounce back and forth. So I'm going to start with you, Justin. Uh, what do you think is the biggest barrier to implementing new technology in the Navy?

Justin Fanelli: 00:41:41

Making a clear case of trade offs. And showing that case, um, in terms of how we see it to who we're talking to. So, uh, we're working with different communities and we need to make sure that it's in clearly in their lens. Um, ways that we've started to do that is, um, Hey, are we adaptable? Uh, can we move from a podcast in the car because, uh, A Wi Fi signal dies to pick up a satellite to do. I mean, like, um, the adaptability of, uh, the way that the military operates is more important than ever. Can we couch things in those terms, for instance, and similarly resilience. And so those are 2 key ones that we've started translating. To, um, Colin's point, uh, can we show that numerically and with stories? I think if we can translate, we can win.

Tim Winkler: 00:42:40

Good stuff. Um, Katie, how does the Navy foster a culture of innovation amongst its ranks?

Katie Wildman: 00:42:50

I will only speak to the team that I'm on, but we are very much a bachelors team. So the number one rule we always have is. Never make a decision based on the size of your sandbox and recognizing that everyone around you may be smarter in a different topic. And so we really do work on reminding ourselves that, you know, at the end of the day, we're doing what's best for the warfighter, and we're here to help the warfighter. So it's not about. Where we fall in the different badges and different ranks. It's about like, how are we going to make the most impact?

Tim Winkler: 00:43:29

Justin, what are some of the tech roles that you're currently hiring for the Navy?

Justin Fanelli: 00:43:35

Love that. So team player doers, uh, are the characteristics clouds, me dev sec ops, me leads in these places, pilot owners. We're looking for versatile lists who can pull things over the line. And so like, whether you're a quantum specialist or not is less important than whether you have a track record of delivery and to Colin's point about diversity, if you've shown you can do that somewhere in tech and you've learned one or two domains, like your depth of expertise is potentially less important than your ability to learn in it. Uh, unless we're talking about something like nuclear, but, uh, across the board. We have a lot of opportunities right now, and we're going to build a team of A players to extend the team of A players.

Tim Winkler: 00:44:28

Katie, what's the area of defense tech modernization that you're excited to see in the next five years? Quantum.

Katie Wildman: 00:44:38

That is most excited. Yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:44:40

Awesome. All right. We're going to switch to a few, uh, fun questions. Uh, what's, what's a favorite app on your phone, Justin?

Justin Fanelli: 00:44:50

Well, Colin took mine, uh, and then I thought you were going to ask gadget. And so I was going to say, uh, my portable charger that my girlfriend just saved me an hour a day. Yeah, okay. So favorite app on the phone? Uh, well, I like Libby even more than audible because it's free Uh, and it goes up to 3. 5 speed as opposed to just uh, I think three on the audible. Uh, but uh Maybe linkedin Because, uh, it allows us to connect and, uh, and make our community smaller. Dual use is kind of, uh, a lot of different places. Um, sometimes people talk about defense sector as a sector. I think it's a launch pad for all 11 sectors, uh, and where we can connect to people or where people are asking questions that they weren't before. Uh, that's probably a top, top three app for me.

Tim Winkler: 00:45:41

Last question for you, Katie. And then I know you got to jump. Uh, what's the worst fashion trend you ever followed?

Katie Wildman: 00:45:47

Ooh, this is fun. Please don't say

Tim Winkler: 00:45:50

vest. Please don't say vest. Say

Katie Wildman: 00:45:54

vest. I think the worst fashion trend I ever did was, um, in high school I thought it was really cool to wear pajamas for, like, weeks at a time, but I would wear them with cowboy boots. I already mentioned I'm from up north. That makes no sense whatsoever. So, um, yeah, that was a bad one. I'm really happy. There's no photos.

Tim Winkler: 00:46:14

I don't know if that's coming back, but I see kids in the gym wearing pajamas and I'm like, what are you, what are you doing? How do you take yourself seriously in here? Yeah, no. Thank you guys for, for joining us. It was a great discussion. Uh, insights on the transformative process that's happening across the defense tech space is obviously super important, uh, and meaningful to a lot of these smaller companies that are trying to get involved in, in transform, uh, you know, defense at large. And so thank you for your feedback and what you're doing for streamlining everything. And thanks for our listeners for tuning in and thank you all for joining us on the pod.