The Build vs. Buy Software Debate: Tips from Startup Engineering Leaders | The Pair Program Ep01

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

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a front row seat to candid conversations

with tech leaders from the startup world.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler,

the creator of hatchpad and I'm

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your other host, Mike Gruen.

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Join us each episode as we bring

together two guests to dissect topics

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at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

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Welcome guys.

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As you're aware, this is The Pair Program.

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I'm your host Tim Winkler accompanied by

my co host and right winger, Mike Gruen.

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Mike Gruen: Mike, good to see you.

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Yeah, nice to see you for those not

watching where both of our hockey

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jerseys, I'm not a conservative right

winger just to put that out there.

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Uh, but yeah, so, yeah,

welcome to the episode.

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Um, and we'd like to start every

episode by asking our guests

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what their favorite pairing is.

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Uh, Ian, why don't you

why don't you lead us off?

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And what's your

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Ian Lotinsky: what's

your favorite pairing?

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Sir, I practiced one at practice this

one at home with my kids last night.

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My favorite pairing is dad

jokes and awkward silence.

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Tim Winkler: That's good.

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That's good.

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Do you have any dad jokes up your

sleeve or that was a dad joke?

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That was a dad joke.

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Okay.

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I should have waited for

more awkward silence, you

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Mike Gruen: know, how you measure,

you know, how you measure dad

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joke on the size seismographs

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and then we have the awkward silence.

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Perfect.

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Yeah,

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Tim Winkler: Mike, what's, uh,

what's a good pairing for you?

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Mike Garrett: For me, it's

a bourbon and popsicles.

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Mike Gruen: That's an interesting,

any particular flavor popsicle.

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Mike Garrett: Uh, whichever ones

are in the fridge or in the freezer.

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Um, I'm an adult, so I

can have whatever I want.

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Tim Winkler: Just don't mix those

up when the kids are around.

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Um, I'm going to go with, um, Alex

Ovechkin and the Washington capitals.

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Just.

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Based on the fact that I'm

a huge DC caps fan here.

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And, uh, Mike, you are

wearing a rangers jersey.

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Yeah, I guess.

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So

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Mike Gruen: then I guess that

makes my favorite pairing.

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Um, uh, heartbreak and misery.

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So

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Tim Winkler: yeah, well, watching

football team fan here as well.

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So I can certainly relate.

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Awesome.

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Um, well, good stuff.

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Why don't we jump into the, you

know, the reason that we're all

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here today and, uh, riff on this.

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Discussion around, uh, build

versus buy or buy versus build.

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Um, you know, obviously something that

is debated, you know, amongst engineering

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leaders, product owners, founders of

different startups, uh, on a daily basis.

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Um, Mike, why don't you give us

like, you know, your, your definition

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of build versus buy and kick off

with your thoughts on the topic.

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Mike Garrett: Sure.

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So for me, the definition of build

versus buy is really what can you do

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to help your company achieve their

goals, either by building it from

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scratch or, you know, buying a solution?

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Uh, there are schools of thought,

hence why we're both here, uh, on

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both sides of the issue, but, uh,

it really boils down to, you know,

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what can we do as an engineering

organization to advance our own goals?

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Tim Winkler: Nice.

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Ian, um, any anything on that note?

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Or, um, similar similar feelings?

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Sure.

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Yeah,

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Ian Lotinsky: I think, um, the

usually for any particular component

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you're looking at or service, you're

trying to decide, do we build?

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Builder by, uh, this thing.

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Um, but when you look at the whole

portfolio of some sort of a product

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or company, um, it's usually

not entirely buy versus build.

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It's usually, what are we

buying and what are we building?

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Um, so that we're strategic in our

scarcest resource, which is usually time.

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Um, obviously money is involved.

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Um, the economics do play into it.

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But a lot of times it's about

opportunity cost, you know, as your,

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your product company weighs different,

different options for different

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aspects of your total solution.

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Mike Gruen: Yeah, I think that

that leads into a great point on

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opportunity cost and build versus buy.

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And I think there's hidden costs as well.

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Um, as you sort of hinted at,

right, even when you're buying

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a solution, it's not just.

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Buying a solution, right?

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Like there's going to be some

time cost to implement it, um,

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integrated into your systems.

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And I think that's one

of those hidden things.

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I'm curious what your

guys thoughts are on that.

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Ian Lotinsky: Yeah.

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So, uh, yeah, I think when it comes

to hidden costs are just things

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to take into consideration, right?

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There's more than just the price

tag of, you know, build versus buy.

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There's things like, um, you

know, what's the long term cost

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of this in terms of maintenance?

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Yeah.

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Um, because whether you buy or

build part of your team probably is

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going to have to support something.

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Um, uh, is this thing that we could buy

stable enough to rely on or is there going

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to be hidden cost and having to patch, you

know, problems either, you know, some sort

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of open source project you can contribute

to or something that you have to negotiate

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with a product team somewhere that you're

paying, um, or even having to, you know,

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Sometimes patch around issues, right?

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Using encapsulation to, like,

encapsulate a service or something.

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Um, and figuring out how

do you fill in the gaps?

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Um, whether those are, uh, capability

gaps or technical gaps because something

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just doesn't work, um, you have to

really look at total cost of ownership.

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Kind of like when you're

buying a car, right?

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It's good to know what's not just to make

a model and the cost of acquiring this.

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But what's the maintenance typically

look like for this sort of vehicle?

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Tim Winkler: I could certainly

talk to, you know, you would talk

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about building something as well.

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I mean, the cost of recruiting

right now is at an all time high.

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Um, the cost of acquiring talent, you

know, is becoming more and more difficult.

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These days, given the market, um,

engineering salaries are increasing

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at drastic rates more so than

they ever have in years past.

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And, uh.

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You're going to inherit that cost.

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Um, it's also going to take some

time to find the right individuals.

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And so if you're going to be pretty

particular, which most startups tend

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to be, uh, with finding, you know,

that, that right engineering mold,

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it's going to take you a little bit of

time and you're going to pay for it.

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So weighing that into the equation

certainly should, uh, play a part.

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Mike Gruen: So, yeah, I'm

curious, like, you know, like

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there's the cost side, right?

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And then there's other decision, you know,

what other factors do you want to take it?

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Do you guys usually take into

consideration when you're trying to make

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that decision of do we want to build this?

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Do we want to buy build it in house?

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Buy it some sort of something in between.

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I don't know, Mike,

what your thoughts are.

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But, um, you know, obviously I do

actually, because we talked a little

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bit about this, but, um, but, yeah,

I'm curious, you know, what, what,

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uh, what other characteristics you

look for constraints you think of.

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Mike Garrett: Yeah, I mean,

outside of the monetary costs are

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all, there's also the human cost.

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Uh, so cost of, uh, like we mentioned,

maintaining the software itself,

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um, also acquiring knowledge.

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Um, so for a piece of technology

where it's not our core strength,

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or it's not something that the.

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You know, team knows intimately

thinking about like databases

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and maintaining those long term.

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That's something that you also

have to think about to make sure.

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Is it worth us ramping up on, um,

you know, maintaining a cluster,

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uh, having knowledge about A.

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J.

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Um, when we could acquire something

that has all of that, uh, and a

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whole company standing behind, um,

making sure that those things are,

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you know, um, thought of and are.

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You know, have an SLA behind.

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Um, there's also that the

other cost is, uh, in choice.

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So I think back to, um, you know,

assembling, you know, at least on

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the front end, um, with, you know,

choosing between like angular JS and

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react, uh, where one was an all in

one toolkit and the other one was, you

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know, best of breed, build up your own.

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That's kind of something you think

about when you Build something you

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think about all the different pieces.

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What cloud do we deploy to?

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What database do we use?

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What, um, you know, front end language

do we use versus we use, uh, we integrate

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someone else's SAS product that has

all that kind of behind the scenes.

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And we just interact

with a connection string.

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Um, it really reduces the amount

of cognitive load that your

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team has to deal with versus.

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You know, building something up

where, you know, all the intimate

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pieces of it, but is that worth it?

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Mike Gruen: Yeah, I mean, I think

it's, um, and in, um, feel free to

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jump in, but like the sort of quarter

your business versus, is it commodity?

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That type of stuff, I think isn't sort

of what you're hinting at Mike, but

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I'm curious what your thoughts are.

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Yeah.

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Ian Lotinsky: Yeah.

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I think, um, cost is important.

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You know, how staff are going

to support this is important.

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Um, a lot of times though,

it needs to start with what's

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the strategic value of this.

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Um, does this, uh, is this something

that is strategically core to our

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business in a way that we know there's

going to be a lot of iteration on this

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aspect that we're going to be listening

to user feedback and having to Make

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it better or extend it because of

that feedback or that market strategy.

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Or is it something that's

just a commodity service?

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That's something that's not going to

need a lot of iteration, something that

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really is kind of the same sort of service

or functionality across all, you know,

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all or most web products or software

products or whatever you're building that

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can just be outsourced without worrying

about having to have a Differentiated,

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you know, from other people's products.

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Um, it's a great way to involve, you know,

the business team in the conversation

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around build versus buy is, you know,

starting with, okay, what's the big

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problem we're trying to solve here?

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Is this solution part of our core value

add in the world or is this something

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that is more secondary or tertiary?

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Mike Gruen: Yeah, I mean,

I think, um, that's right.

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The whole, um, core to business is always

one that I've used as a main driver.

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Like, is this really part of

our intellectual property?

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Is this what we find?

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You know, is this really where

we want to be spending our time?

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Is this where we want to hire developers?

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Um, I think what's sort of amazing about

and you guys, we've all experienced

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it over the last 10, 20 years,

which is, you know, Everything is

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becoming more and more commoditized.

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It used to be the case that you

needed to have, like, somebody who,

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like, if you wanted to build an

authentication system, you kind of had

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no choice but to build that yourself.

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And now there's, you know,

authentication is a service.

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It's basically becoming commodity.

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There's a bunch of players in that space.

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Um, infrastructure is another

place, you know, databases, um,

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you know, time and again, I think

that's just the, the direction that

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everything is going is pretty soon.

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It's really just assembling 3rd party

pieces that do all of the things that

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you don't want to have to deal with.

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Um, and I think that's, you know,

I think it's the, the builders by

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decisions, just getting that much more

complicated, because in the past, it was,

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it was a little more straightforward.

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Like, there were less options.

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And so.

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So it's, I think sometimes, you know,

and I've experienced this recently

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in places I've worked where it's

like, it's hard is this corridor

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business is actually sometimes a

really hard question to answer.

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Um,

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Ian Lotinsky: there's, there's more

discipline that has to go in now into,

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um, not accidentally just adopting

something because it's available.

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Mike Gruen: Right?

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Ian Lotinsky: Right.

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That, um, and these, you know,

these options are usually

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relatively inexpensive.

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And so it does have to be about what's

the core value we add to the world.

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And, um, even if we do decide to buy

right now, what's the future switching

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costs, uh, involved, um, in, in, in

the inevitable future that tends to

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come at some point, especially in

a multi year journey, um, where you

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do end up having to convert stuff

that is purchased to, um, custom.

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Because your, as your needs

develop or even just 1

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Mike Gruen: thing that you've

purchased a different thing, right?

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Like every, you can, you can outgrow

a thing, or I can think of a number

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of, uh, you know, you sort of get

in early at a company, like it's

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an early adopter to their platform.

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And then, you know, you're

using it and you, and, uh, they

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sort of make maybe a pivot.

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And then next thing you know, you're

sort of this, like, legacy customer,

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um, using the system that they don't

really want to support anymore.

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And you're, you're sort of left

like, okay, now what do we do?

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We have to find somebody

else to migrate to.

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So there's that type of stuff as well.

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Mike Garrett: Yeah, absolutely.

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Um, and that's when it becomes super

important to hold your data and

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call that sacred because you do.

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You will want to switch from one

platform to another as you outgrow

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one where be where either the earlier

adopter or met your needs at one

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point, but now they are stagnant.

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They're not growing.

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Here's a new one that comes along that

they've got a new team behind them.

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They're doing a lot more and

not a lot more and more quickly.

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You're able to swap over if you

hold on to your data in a way that

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makes that transition transparent

to your company to your users.

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Um, and it gives you that

value versus one where you've.

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Built it up from scratch and

you can no longer, you know,

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you don't have that autonomy.

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You are just at the mercy of

whatever you have assembled yourself.

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Mike Gruen: Yeah, I mean,

I think that's right.

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The whole risk and offsetting that

risk of what happens if they go out of

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business, if they get acquired, if they

no longer meet our needs, whatever it

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is, that's something that really needs

to be taken into account when you're,

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when you're building these things.

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Um, I'm curious.

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I

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Tim Winkler: have a question like, um, As

far as the key stakeholders that go into

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that decision, that final decision, is

it, um, is it usually a group decision?

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Like, let's loop in the

product team as well.

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Let's, you know, CTO in board

or where, what is the, you know,

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who's the team at hand that's

kind of going into this, you know.

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Decision making process,

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Mike Garrett: at least for for me and

my team, it depends on, uh, I guess

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the size and the impact of the thing

that you're trying to integrate in.

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Um, if it is, you know, one off tool,

um, that can help your team move quickly.

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Uh, it's not too terribly expensive.

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Um, the decision can rest within our team.

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If it's something that's going to

impact more of our users, um, be this.

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Yes.

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You know, very centralized piece of

technology, like an authentication

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system that's going to require

the full engineering team and

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the VPs and CTOs to sign off on.

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And if it's something even larger,

like a CRM, that's going to

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require everyone to sign off on

because it's just like the monetary

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impact to the rest of the company.

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Mike Gruen: Yeah, I think, um, right

for, um, when I think about it,

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right, those stakeholders are, you

know, 1st of all, not every tool is

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necessarily not everything that you're

thinking about is, uh, user facing.

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So, like, if it is end user facing, then

probably product needs to get involved.

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If it's, um, if it's a tool that's

going to be used by some subset of

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the people within the organization,

obviously they need to get involved.

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And, um, I think that's those are

all important things to keep in mind.

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And making making a good case, I

don't know how, like, I think a lot

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of startups, um, sort of the making

the case for a decision like that,

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especially during growth stages.

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And I'm curious what kind of regular you

guys have seen put into those decisions.

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Is it something that

is like, super formal?

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And you have to put together, like,

a whole document explaining, like,

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The whole thing, or is it like just

a, you have a quick conversation and

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everybody's like, yeah, no brainer.

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I've definitely experienced all of it.

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So I'm curious what you

guys experiences have been.

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Mike Garrett: I've got an answer,

but Ian, I'd love if you'd start.

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Ian Lotinsky: Yeah, sure.

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Yeah.

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So whenever it's involved money, it's

definitely needed to, uh, uh, have a

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little bit more due diligence because.

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We're going to be, you know, spending

cash that could be used on our, our

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burn, you know, our, our staff burn rate.

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Um, so that's, that's one

thing that comes to mind.

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Um, and I think there tends

to be a default assumption

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that we can build all things.

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And so you have to, um.

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Uh, kind of just break out of that

mold and I think sometimes it's,

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it's upon the, the build team to be

the ones who basically Paul, the con

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bond court and say, hang on, we're

stopping the assembly line here.

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We're going to, um, you know, talk about

the strategic, talk about the cost,

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you know, long term, short term, et

cetera, and try to, um, figure out, uh,

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because they're the ones who have to

maintain this, you know, what's, what's

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the right, um, process to be convinced.

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And I think when we talk.

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Earlier about that spectrum of commodity

versus, um, strategic, uh, value, you

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know, extra strategic value for your

business, um, that comes into into play.

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And it's something that your whole

your whole product team has to lean

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into, whether or not they're part

of the engineering team that has

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to support this or implement it.

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Mike Gruen: Makes sense.

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Um,

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Mike Garrett: and then from

my perspective, same thing.

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We write out a document and it's

designed to basically lay out, uh,

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if we, you know, if we build this.

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These are the important

things to think about.

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If we bought this, these are also

the important things to think

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about and weighing which one

the pros and cons of the two.

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And it's really like thinking

about things like opportunity cost.

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If you buy something now, uh, depending

on how long it takes to integrate it, it

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could be, you know, you fully utilizing

all of its feature set within like a

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month or so versus building something

that's going to take a full year and

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you won't get to that same place until.

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Cool.

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Next, uh, next year.

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Um, that's something to think

about in terms of planning.

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Um, and then the other thing is like,

if we bought something, is it going

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to give us something that we couldn't

get otherwise, or without, you know,

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expending a lot of energy, things like

compliance and just industry compliance.

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Um, that's something that also you

can get, um, from something that's

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going to cost a little bit more

versus something that you have to.

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Create and then go through the compliance

and auditing, uh, cycle to get that same,

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like, um, certificate or compliance level.

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That's important to, uh,

someone that either is investing

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in you or to your company.

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Mike Gruen: Yeah, I think it's always

funny when you fall in love with features

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that you didn't even realize you.

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Like, oh, wait, now that I know this guy,

you know, these people can supply this.

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I almost feel like it's a requirement.

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Whereas going into the, you know,

going into that decision making,

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you might not have even considered

that as something that you needed.

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And next thing you know, there's

some vendor out there that's actually

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able to do something that you

hadn't even considered as an option.

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And now it's suddenly a requirement,

even though you never thought

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of it in the planning stages.

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Tim Winkler: What goes into

like the process of comparing

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one vendor versus another?

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So you, you've settled on this feature

that you think will, will add some value.

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Um, is there a, you know, specific

research arm, uh, within the department

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that's tasked to go out and see what else

is out there before we settle on this?

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Mike Garrett: That would be awesome.

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But no, that's me.

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Uh, exactly what Mike said, uh,

listing out the four or five features

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that you actually need, uh, for

this piece of your architecture.

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And starting with that and seeing

who does those things really well,

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putting those into a short list and

then, you know, comparing them on

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other dimensions like price or ease

of use or ease of uh, integration.

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Um, that's awesome.

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That's the beginning of the journey.

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It's a mistake to go the other way around

saying which company is like the most

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well known, uh, and can give me, you

know, 100 different things or who's the

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company that can give me 120 things, but

you're only going to use 5 or 10 of them.

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I do

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Mike Gruen: find it funny that you

bring that up because when I was

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building out the, um, our data stack

at cyber, um, I sort of had an idea of

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like, well, this is a pretty common.

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Architecture, whatever, but I'm

going to go out data science team

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myself, we're going to go out.

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We're going to look at all

these different things.

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And in the end, we basically spent several

months, not several months, probably

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several weeks, uh, doing all of these,

like, experiments and weighing all of

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our options and would have ended up

going with, like, well, it turns out the

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standard stack is actually the standard

stack, um, you know, for, for what we

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were doing, it was kind of funny, um,

how that can prove out, but you're right,

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that it's a pitfall to sort of look at,

like, what's the, What's the well known

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and, um, and then just going with that can

sometimes lead to bad outcomes as well.

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Um, I'm curious, you know, Ian, what

your thoughts are on, on how you go

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about that comparing vendors and stuff.

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Ian Lotinsky: Yeah, well, I think

everything I agree with everything we've

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said so far about starting with what's

critical and building out from there.

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Um, and I want to go back

to something, uh, yeah.

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Mike said earlier, which was, um,

around, you know, the industry

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you're in the, in the supporting

infrastructure that has to be in place.

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Um, sometimes the group you're integrating

with has more than just software.

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Maybe they've got a support

team that comes along with,

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um, you know, the service.

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Um, maybe, um, There's a group that

then has to, you know, integrate,

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you know, that software with your

customer software or their I.

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T.

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Infrastructure.

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Um, maybe, uh, you need

to get to know that.

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That team to understand, you know,

where are we going to fall in the

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rank of priorities based on how we're

using the product, the size of the

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contract we're going to get into, are

they going to be responsive to our

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needs and the needs of our market?

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Or are we.

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Kind of using this for an unofficial

purpose, or are we so low on the

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totem pole that we're just not going

to be able to get any help, even if

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there are bugs that need to be fixed.

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So I think understanding what's the

support system around this, either for you

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or for your customers or for your market.

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Could be a helpful one.

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Mike Gruen: Yeah, definitely.

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The support aspect of, um, you know, are

we in the 80 percent of the use cases that

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this company that this vendor supports?

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Are we in the 20%?

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Are we in a new market that

they're trying to get into?

425

And if that's the case,

what does that mean?

426

Does that mean we're going to get

actually better support because

427

we're sort of a test client?

428

Or does that mean we're going to

get worse support because we're not

429

quarter their business and they're

not really sure yet if this is

430

really the direction they want to go?

431

I've definitely experienced that.

432

Yeah.

433

Ian Lotinsky: One that we've, um, we've

experienced a little bit has been, um,

434

just understanding the connection with

competitors, or even if this service is.

435

A competitor an hour could be a

competitor, uh, later, um, sometimes, uh,

436

you know, companies acquire the companies

and sometimes those are your competitors.

437

And as much as we'd like to believe, um,

that people are making decisions, you

438

know, in a vacuum altruistically, uh, this

is not the way the world works, right?

439

There's a competition and, um,

you have to be able to, to, to

440

assess and kind of empathize.

441

Like if we were in their position.

442

Um, how would we prioritize, you

know, our own company here, um,

443

to make sure that you're you are

going to get your, needs met?

444

Mike Gruen: Yeah, that's a great point.

445

Um, I've definitely experienced

that as well, where a competitor

446

of ours actually acquired.

447

Companies that we had good relationships

with because for them, it was sort of

448

the same build versus buy, but they

decided to buy the company rather than

449

just buy the product or buy the service.

450

So, right next thing, you know,

you're, you're sort of in a

451

scramble mode where now you're, you

had a relationship that just got

452

acquired by 1 of your competitors.

453

And that's always a tough situation.

454

Tim Winkler: We actually see that

more and more often is companies, you

455

know, being bought out just purely

for the employees themselves for the

456

engineering talent themselves versus

having to go through the, the hassle

457

of recruiting the next 5 engineers.

458

Let's just go buy this.

459

Let's just go buy this company.

460

Mike Gruen: Right?

461

Yeah.

462

We'll hire.

463

Tim Winkler: Yeah, obviously on

the other end of the spectrum

464

here when it comes to that, but

there's also more options for that.

465

I was just looking at a, uh, heard it

on a podcast, a company, uh, called

466

micro acquire, which is startups,

you know, sass companies selling.

467

At the very infancy infancy stages,

but they've got some sort of an MVP.

468

They've got some sort of a, a

product that's being used as

469

generating some sort of a revenue.

470

And it's scoop it up, you know,

via this, you know, no hassle kind

471

of startup acquisition platform.

472

So it's definitely becoming

more and more frequent.

473

Mike Gruen: So, so we've been talking

a lot about just like build versus buy,

474

but, um, you know, you know, Ian, I know,

you know, before we, before we started

475

recording, we were talking a little bit

and I think you have an interesting story

476

about, like, sort of, uh, like a middle

ground where, you know, you, you came

477

up with a sort of an interesting way

of, of not making that, like, it doesn't

478

have to be just purely build versus buy.

479

There's other options out there.

480

Right.

481

I'm hoping you understand

what I'm referencing.

482

Ian Lotinsky: Yeah.

483

So, um, in addition to the traditional,

you know, buy versus build, um,

484

perspectives, there sometimes can be

creative ways that you can apply capital

485

to, um, to accomplish, uh, goals,

particularly as it relates to open source.

486

Um, and there's a story I love to

share where back when I was working

487

at, um, a startup called living social,

I was leading a team that was working

488

on, um, a product called takeout and

delivery, and it was for ordering food.

489

Um, for takeout delivery.

490

And we needed to be able to

let users search for things

491

within their delivery range.

492

Um, and we needed, uh, geo

search capabilities in Sphinx,

493

which is a database index.

494

And We're looking at how

to build this ourselves.

495

So we need to add these geo

search capabilities to Sphinx.

496

I'm trying to figure out, you

know, do we add this ourselves?

497

Do we, um, totally switch to a

different, you know, index and, um,

498

What would it look like to contribute

to this open source project?

499

And an engineer on my team,

Andrew Hunter, uh, came to me and

500

said, Hey, I have a great idea.

501

Why don't we reach out to the

maintainers of the project and see

502

if we can pay them to do this work?

503

Sure enough, they did custom

work and gave us a quote for

504

how to add the capabilities.

505

And these are capabilities that

were not just things that we needed.

506

It was stuff that really we needed.

507

Um, anyone who was doing geo in Sphinx

could utilize the, um, the double benefit

508

of us being able to pay for this was

that they're going to build it into

509

the, into part of the core offering.

510

So we would benefit from the long

term maintenance of this thing, even

511

with the initial investment that we

made, we wouldn't have to maintain it.

512

We wouldn't have to, you know, keep

in line with all the updates that

513

were happening upstream to the main

project and try to keep, you know,

514

our customizations in line with it.

515

We could basically benefit, uh,

for as long as they continue to

516

support, you know, that sort of

core functionality on their product.

517

Um, and, uh, I was real creative way

of thinking about how to apply capital.

518

To basically a, um, a build.

519

It was kind of a build and buy, right?

520

We were paying for build on top of a

buy, um, that, uh, that ended up just

521

working out for for us and for the

open source project in this community.

522

So I've used this tactic a few times now,

and it's, uh, it's actually worked, um,

523

for a few different open source projects.

524

And I've even used it against some

service providers when they're not

525

able to ship something I've offered

my team's time to join their team.

526

For a period of time to go

build the thing that we need.

527

Uh, and thankfully each time that

I've offered that it's kind of

528

eliminated excuses and people have

actually built what we needed.

529

Um, but that's always something that I've

offered, uh, in a pinch to try to get,

530

uh, get stuff that we need, uh, built

into the stuff we've already purchased.

531

Tim Winkler: R.

532

I.

533

P.

534

Living Social, by the way,

that was one of the D.

535

C.

536

startup sweethearts back in the day.

537

I think it was Groupon that,

that bought them, wasn't it?

538

Ian Lotinsky: They did.

539

And, um, yeah, it was a great, great

group, um, it has a group of engineers

540

and a lot of folks that I have

relationships with now, uh, professionally

541

came from that great organization.

542

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

543

It's a lot of entrepreneurs actually

that's, that, you know, spun up

544

the next wave of startups in the

area came out of living social.

545

The really, really cool story.

546

Ian Lotinsky: There's a lot of

buying and a lot of building.

547

Tim Winkler: That's right.

548

That's right.

549

Thank you.

550

Good stuff.

551

Well, uh, do we have any other

like closing thoughts on the topic?

552

Um, before we jump into the, the wheel

of, uh, hatchpad community over here?

553

Mike Garrett: Yeah, well,

it's a It's not a build versus

554

buy, uh, black or white issue.

555

Obviously, there's a lot of nuance in it.

556

Uh, really?

557

And it's not just for

everything that you're doing.

558

It could be for one part of your

architecture, one part of the company.

559

Uh, but it's something that

you really should think about.

560

Uh, yeah.

561

For me, earlier on in my career, it

was just, let's build everything.

562

I know how to do it.

563

I've seen a video.

564

I can do it, but no, later on, there's

a lot more trade offs, a lot more things

565

you can think about that can help you

accelerate the amount of things you could

566

be doing as a company, as a whole, if

you think about it just a little deeply.

567

A little bit more deeply

568

Tim Winkler: cool.

569

Mike g, do you got anything else?

570

You want

571

Mike Gruen: me?

572

I think off of what Mike was saying,

the, um, like, I think from a

573

career perspective, that's a, that's

a great point is like early on.

574

I think a lot of engineers, um, think

about just, they want to build things.

575

They want to build things.

576

You know, the, the, the advantage to

integrating something and seeing how

577

something else is built and then, um,

that's a, that's just a great skill set

578

in general is learning how to integrate

services together and sort of, um, mask,

579

you know, uh, shortcomings and other

party, you know, and other people's stuff.

580

Um, but I think that's, I think that's

a similar journey that I had, which is

581

like, right in the early days, I wrote

everything and then, um, you know,

582

now it's, it's really, um, I think.

583

Okay.

584

About like, what is where do we

really want to spend our time and

585

what do we really want to be doing?

586

And I think that that's something that

I think comes as you as you progress

587

in your careers as a developer or

as a product manager or whatever

588

is really making sure to focus on

the on the value on what you're

589

trying to provide to your customers.

590

Tim Winkler: Well, said, all right, well,

on that note, why don't we wrap up the,

591

uh, the main topic here and transition

to, um, you know, something that obviously

592

is a part of, you know, our, our podcast,

um, touching on career development.

593

Um, you know, we obviously want to

add value outside of just, you know,

594

the pure tech talk, um, and this wheel

here will help serve and, uh, guiding

595

us, uh, down some different topics.

596

So what I'll do is spin

this wheel and grab.

597

Gravitate towards a specific category, uh,

that's centered around career development,

598

such anticipation,

599

Mike Garrett: what a fine wheel

600

Tim Winkler: promotions.

601

All right.

602

So the way that we'll do this is

just, um, we'll bounce back and forth

603

between both Mike and Ian on this here.

604

And the question I've got here

is centered around promotions.

605

It's pretty general, uh, but, uh, you

know, I, I think this is an area that

606

a lot of folks don't really know how to

anticipate asking, uh, for a promotion.

607

So I'm curious to hear how you,

uh, would navigate yourself asking

608

for a promotion, um, in your role.

609

Mike Garrett: Yeah, I could start.

610

Uh, so navigating promotion for me.

611

Um, it's the same advice I give to the

people that are also on my team is to

612

do so in like an evidence based way.

613

Um, so we use a, uh, you know, a

ladder, um, that has, you know, what our

614

current position is, what our current

level is, and then the next level up.

615

So I say go to that next level.

616

Uh, get those four or five different

bullet points that are in all the

617

different categories and I'll map them to

what you've done over the last quarter.

618

Uh, and then that gives a very solid,

um, piece of solid document that has

619

everything that says what the next level,

um, what you're expected of at the next

620

level and the fact that you've done it.

621

So there shouldn't be any, uh, qualms

about bumping you up there if it's

622

the time to do so in your company.

623

Do you be able to do that?

624

Because you've done it.

625

You've just demonstrated that for

the people that need to see that.

626

Um, and obviously if Yeah, if they don't

want to bump you up at your current

627

company, you also have the same body

of work to give to the next company.

628

If you want to apply for that senior

role or the engineering manager

629

role or whatever role there is nice.

630

Ian Lotinsky: And if, um,

631

if you don't know the process

by which your company or

632

your manager, uh, evaluates.

633

Uh, talent and decides on promotions,

that's where you got to start.

634

And there's no better time to crack open

that conversation with a new manager,

635

uh, when you first join up, right?

636

Whether that's you joining a new company

or you be reporting to someone new in

637

an organization Um, early on in one on

ones, either formal or asking for some

638

time, just talking about general things

about the department and their leadership

639

and how you can follow and support, um,

definitely ask about, Hey, how does one

640

progress, you know, in this organization,

what's the criteria, what's the cadence,

641

you know, is this, is our annual review

process is or not, um, what's, what are

642

the things I need to be mindful of, um,

being clear on, you know, what, Your

643

organization or leaders expectations are

on that front is a good place to start.

644

And no matter what sort of framework

is in place, there's always a person

645

or people behind the decisions

around these sorts of things.

646

So, um, although you do need to

be really clear about, you know,

647

what, what's the criteria, what's,

what should be my expectations and,

648

um, Their expectations, et cetera.

649

Um, just knowing, you know, what

they value and maybe even ask that

650

explicitly or, you know, what are the

things you want me to focus on, right?

651

Leaning into personal development on the

job and communicating with your leader

652

very clearly that I'm eager to grow.

653

Um, you know, that usually translates

to demonstrating Uh, success because

654

you're paying attention to what your

leadership, um, cares about and when

655

it comes time for promotions or, um,

pay increases and things like that, you

656

know, hopefully you've connected enough,

uh, with what your leaders are pushing

657

for that, um, that you come to mind.

658

Mike Gruen: Yeah, I mean, I think both

of you are sort of saying similar things,

659

which is, it's, it's not a backward

looking conversation as much as it's

660

a forward looking setting expectation

conversations of what do I like?

661

Yeah.

662

It's not about this is the,

this is all the things I've

663

achieved over the last year.

664

I deserve a promotion, which is

a very difficult conversation.

665

I think to have, as opposed

to more of a forward looking.

666

Well, what are the things

I need to accomplish?

667

And what are your expectations of me?

668

And so and so forth.

669

And so that when it comes

time for that promotion.

670

Everybody's already established

what that criteria is.

671

And I think that's a pretty common.

672

I think it's also a hard conversation

to have when you like, especially

673

earlier in your career where you

might not even realize that that's

674

a conversation you need to have.

675

Like, what, what is, what does

career growth look like here?

676

What are my options?

677

What do I have to do?

678

But those are, those are definitely

the conversations you need to have

679

to make the other conversations

about promotions much easier.

680

Otherwise, you're just sort of surprising

your manager and it's going to be a.

681

Okay.

682

Ian Lotinsky: Uh,

683

Mike Gruen: yeah, yeah.

684

Ian Lotinsky: And what one thing that, um,

is advice mostly, I think, to folks who.

685

Maybe you kind of navigating this for

the first time, you know, sometimes you

686

even check off all those boxes and you

might even get your manager to agree

687

that like, yeah, you improved here.

688

You're doing this now, but

you're still not getting, you

689

know, such and such a promotion.

690

That can be really difficult for engineers

in particular, because we're very much.

691

Caught up into the details and

there's a, there's this concept called

692

gestalt, which basically is that

the sum does not always equal the

693

sum of the parts or like the total.

694

It's not equal to some of the parts.

695

Um, and that's just a, it is a thing

about how, um, uh, businesses work in

696

terms of deciding who's in what position.

697

Um, and ultimately deciding on, you

know, promotions and pay sometimes.

698

There are, you have to take a step

back from the details and look at the

699

complete picture and just say, you know,

does this make sense for organization?

700

Doesn't make sense for this person.

701

And if you're on the receiving

end of that, in a way in which you

702

feel is unfair, it can be really

destructive to then try to bicker over.

703

I had this and I did this and

I got, you're probably never

704

going to win that argument.

705

Um, instead, I think it's best

to just express, you know, You

706

know, honest disappointment.

707

Oh, I'm disappointed.

708

Like I, I thought, you know, I was on

track to, uh, to get into the next level.

709

What else can I do?

710

And, and, um, and, and, you

know, it is a manager or leader's

711

job to lead people, right.

712

And to be clear about

where they need to grow.

713

Um, and even be clear about constraints

that exist in the organization.

714

Um, uh, yeah.

715

That may be in the way, but, um, it's

possible to lean into that sort of

716

disappointment still with some optimism

and eagerness to work with your manager

717

to figure out, okay, what's next?

718

And you're not always necessarily

tied to an annual, you know,

719

review or promotion process, right?

720

Sometimes things happen mid year

or even partway through the year.

721

So, Leaning, leaning into those as

opportunities rather than seeing them

722

as fights to be had, um, you know, can

just, uh, help you achieve, you know,

723

that goal maybe even more directly

because you're having this difficult

724

but explicit conversation around, um,

you know, what it is you really need to.

725

To get to the next level,

726

Tim Winkler: I can even speak to the,

I think there's, um, different phases,

727

uh, within the startup ecosystem, right?

728

Where when you, when you talk about super

early stage companies, you're at a point

729

where, you know, so call it under 10, uh,

everybody's almost a bit of a speed bump.

730

A generalist, right?

731

Um, and you're expected to

kind of partake in different

732

departments and step up when needed.

733

Uh, then you start to evolve

outside of that scope and that size.

734

Like similar at Hatch, what would happen

is once we got beyond, I'd say, you know,

735

12 to 15, you start seeing departments

forming and people become specialists

736

and then they want more autonomy.

737

You know, when they're, when you're

talking with them about, you know,

738

what path do you want to go down?

739

Do you, do you see yourself be being

more in the marketing department?

740

Um, if that's the case, you know, then

posing that next question of, do you want

741

to be a people manager or do you enjoy

more of this, uh, I see type of role,

742

um, because, you know, creating multiple

paths will have different outcomes in

743

terms of promotion, pay, uh, level of

effort that you you're responsible for.

744

Um, and so what we see is like,

as startups evolve and departments

745

start to gain more headcount,

uh, that's a clear sign of.

746

Start thinking through what were

your career growth paths here.

747

Uh, if you haven't already, um, we on the

concept of build versus buy, we actually

748

invested in a, in a software, uh, that

was, you know, for people management

749

and it had clear cut outlines of.

750

Career growth tracks that then you

can use as a template, but you know,

751

it's personalized to your business.

752

And it was with that, that, you know,

it was really helpful for us to,

753

um, make sure that, you know, our,

our team members were aware, like

754

we do have development paths here.

755

Like we're not just going down this

stagnant path, but as a startup, you know,

756

oftentimes that's just kind of thrown.

757

You're thrown into that.

758

Um, it's not so natural of a situation.

759

And so I think it's interesting to

think about it too, from, uh, the

760

size of the company and when you

might be pushed into this path of

761

thinking about promotions for folks.

762

Mike Gruen: And I think on the,

um, the people manager versus IC,

763

I think technology, especially like

product engineering, there's a lot

764

of roles where there's no reason

why you can't sort of Move between

765

them over the course of your career.

766

I don't know what your,

your experiences are.

767

Um, and I'm like, but like mine, I, you

know, I managed, you know, I led teams

768

and then I went back to being and I see.

769

And then I went, then I was a manager

again, and I went back to being, you

770

know, the developer again and sort of, um,

you know, it's, it's 1 of those things.

771

It's not like, once you choose a path,

you'll, you're, it's, you know, going

772

to forever dominate your destiny, right?

773

It's like, you can, you can move,

you can, you don't always have

774

to, uh, and I'm sure that's, you

guys have had similar experiences.

775

This.

776

Mike Garrett: Yeah, absolutely.

777

You're not, uh, you know, destined

to go on this upward ladder.

778

You can go up, you can go

down, you can do lateral moves.

779

Like you said, go from a people manager,

going back to an IC, uh, it's all about

780

what you want at that stage in your

life and that stage in your career.

781

Um, but it's also about, you know,

you know, what you Making it known

782

what you want advocating for yourself

because you could be on this, you

783

know, continual escalator just because

you've done the previous job and you've

784

had X number of years of experience.

785

Therefore, you should be

able to do the next one.

786

But do you want to do the next one?

787

We've had a few people who have come

through, uh, Through our hiring pipeline,

788

who have been at that next level up,

uh, and are applying for jobs that are,

789

um, lower down, but it's, you know,

this balance between, you know, what

790

do you want to do in terms of like

growing your career versus having less

791

responsibilities, but more free time.

792

Uh, that's up to you to decide.

793

Um, you could still be great

at all those different levels.

794

Uh, it's just for you to decide

where do you want to be in

795

your career at that moment?

796

All

797

Tim Winkler: right.

798

Well, I think that was a success.

799

I think the wheel is, is

proven it's worth right now.

800

So we flipped the wheel around and

it has your favorite cocktail on

801

there that you'll have to pick from.

802

So, um, no, thank you guys.

803

It's been really fun at hanging out.

804

Uh, definitely a good insight.

805

Great.

806

Um, looking forward to, uh, putting

this one together and pushing it live.

807

Mike Garrett: Nice.

808

Awesome.

809

This was fun.

810

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

811

Thanks for joining

812

Mike Gruen: us.

813

Great.