The Dual-Use Debate: Crafting Smarter Startups from the Start | The Pair Program Ep60

00;01;14;17 - 00;01;44;28

Unknown

I welcome back to the Pair program. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, alongside my co-host, my

growing. So Mike, not to start it off kind of heavy here, but exactly five years ago. Yeah. This

week, I was playing Golden tea at a bar with my friends and looked up on the TV and saw Tom

Hanks telling the world, from Australia that he and his wife had contracted the coronavirus and

that I think it was that same night the NBA kind of canceled all their future games and, felt like

the world kind of stopped at that moment.

00;01;44;28 - 00;02;04;05

Unknown

Do you can you recall where you were at that time five years ago? I mean, I can take a very

educated guess. No, I don't remember exactly where it was, but my guess would be that I was at

work working, because that was with me outside a place where I spent many, many, many long

night oil.

00;02;04;07 - 00;02;26;23

Unknown

Yeah, burning out. That would be. That would be my. I would hazard that guess. But no, I don't

specifically remember one of those, like, you can pinpoint exactly. What about you guys, Jake?

Jane, do you guys recall where you were when that. At that moment. Not a work. Yeah. Or to just

working the next day.

00;02;26;25 - 00;02;59;08

Unknown

We all thought we would make it until Monday. But then the next day, Friday, MIT shut down

and, or went home and didn't come back for a long time. I, I was sitting at a bar with, bunch of

active duty folks who were doing a fellowship out in the Bay area and it was like the end of the

day, we were having, you know, some bar snacks and drinking beers, and all of them started

getting emails and text messages that they had to return to base.

00;02;59;08 - 00;03;16;23

Unknown

So I was talking to a friend of mine who was stationed in Germany, but was out in the Bay area

for the fellowship, and so it was like jumping on the first flight out and, yeah, that was it. Went

home, didn't travel again for a couple of years. Yeah. It's crazy. I mean, that's, like that nine over

11.

00;03;16;23 - 00;03;44;16

Unknown

Like there's a certain, certain times where I can visualize exactly where it was at that point.

Sounds like you and I are, you know, more the bar guys. These guys are working hard over here.

I was working hard at the bar. You're working hard at the bar? Yeah. Not working, you know.

Yeah. That's right. At the time, I had a, a digital nomad working for me, and I'm 90% sure he and

I were on, probably talking about the fact that he had just landed wherever he had landed.

00;03;44;16 - 00;04;03;09

Unknown

I think either, Singapore or London. It was someplace he was traveling all the time. And it was

just like, I don't know what I'm going to do because I'm, I'm walked in here, stuck it. I'm going to

be stuck here for a while. I was like, all right. Yeah, I've heard I've had heard some of those

horror stories back then.

00;04;03;09 - 00;04;29;00

Unknown

Yeah. Well, you have come a long way since then. But, yeah, it's kind of good. Good to, you

know, reflect back, and, you know, see where we're at today and, and, you know, some of the

changes that's happened, across industries, some fads that stuck around, some that didn't, but,

yeah, this is kind of like that week five anniversary of, of when it all kind of started to unfold.

00;04;29;00 - 00;04;45;20

Unknown

But yeah, I was listening to a podcast earlier and it came up and it made me think back, so I

thought I'd bring it up. But yeah, it's, our neighbor actually didn't like the the two weeks, three

weeks before the rest of us got lockdown. She, she went viral. She was on a cruise ship, and she

was.

00;04;45;22 - 00;05;02;26

Unknown

You probably remember there was a couple of cruise ships that were kind of stranded because no

one would take them. They wouldn't be able to port. Yeah. Because, you know, I think the cruise

ship had been in Asia and was trying to come back to the US, and it was like, no, you can't, can't

stop here. So she was like live tweeting, you know, conditions on the ship.

00;05;02;26 - 00;05;24;00

Unknown

Well, they were like stuck at sea for a couple weeks. The rest of us were still walking around

because that was before Covid had really landed here on American shores. But, right. Yeah, that's

actually the cruise industry is one I thought everybody thought it was just going to be done for.

Yeah. And but that and travel at large, you know, continued on, which is great.

00;05;24;02 - 00;05;48;05

Unknown

Cool. All right. Well, let's, let's, let's jump into, a little bit about, what today's episode is about,

not about Covid. Well, we'll, we're going to be diving into, pretty buzzy, you know, often, you

know, controversial topic, dual use technology. You know, this is a field where, you know,

innovations designed to serve both commercial and, defense purposes.

00;05;48;07 - 00;06;23;27

Unknown

So a few examples of these use cases were include artificial intelligence, machine learning,

advanced robotics, autonomous systems, space based tech. So we're going to be exploring how

this approach, you know, can can foster flexibility in tech development. But it also can pose

unique challenges, especially if, you know, when you're navigating this tightrope between market

demands, security needs, and then oftentimes this very short runway that startups have to operate

specifically in today's market, you know, where access to capital is more expensive and a little

bit trickier, to get your hands on.

00;06;24;00 - 00;06;50;23

Unknown

So joining us on the topic of diligence with a few experts in the field, Gene Kesselman, the

director of, mission innovation experimentation at MIT. In addition to teaching an executive

education course at MIT under his strategy for startups and government, Gene's held leadership

positions at a number of startups, as well as, an impressive military career that serves over 25

years in the United States Air Force.

00;06;50;25 - 00;07;13;21

Unknown

And then joining alongside Gene, we have Jake Chapman. Jake is the managing director at Marc

Ventures, specializing in defense and tech investments. And in addition, he serves as an adjunct

instructor instructor at the Rand Institute and previously served as managing director at Army

Venture Capital Corporation. And then I'd like to throw in there, Jake, that, you're a great follow

on LinkedIn as well.

00;07;13;23 - 00;07;33;28

Unknown

Provide a number of spicy takes, which I highly recommend you, all our listeners, check out at

some point. But, Gene and Jake, thank you both for joining us on the Pair program. Pleasure.

Thanks for having us. For sure. Before we get into the weeds of the discussion, we kick things

off with a fun segment called Pair Me Up.

00;07;34;00 - 00;08;00;05

Unknown

We'll go around the room, spitball a few complimentary parents. Mike, you lead us off. Yeah.

Going back to food, we're going to go with, cucumbers and cream cheese. So this is inspired by

this past weekend. I was, we went out, got some bagels, and, had the traditional box and bagels

and the shop that we got of that had in addition to the tomatoes and lettuce and capers, also put

cucumbers on there.

00;08;00;05 - 00;08;23;13

Unknown

And it very reminded me how much I enjoy that sort of cucumber and cream cheese,

combination, cucumber sandwiches is a great, like, little other like for parties and stuff or

whatever or snack. So yeah. So I've gone with, cucumbers and cream cheese. Yeah. Extremely

British, not controversial. Yeah. I'm sure you, you compared with a nice, black tea.

00;08;23;15 - 00;08;45;04

Unknown

Exactly. Yeah. I'm pretty. And my board for the for for. It's a refreshing snack. You're nailing it

with a refreshing snack. No, I dig it. That time of year two weather's warming up, I think, yeah,

it's, my wife's a big, big fan of of that combo as well. I'll make sure I share it with her.

00;08;45;04 - 00;09;10;04

Unknown

She'll she'll get a thrill out of it. Good stuff. All right. I'm gonna I'm gonna take, take a leap here

and go with historic homes and janky doorknobs. So you, my wife and I, we rush recording here

from Chattanooga, Tennessee. We have a home here. That second home here that we rent out,

00;09;10;04 - 00;09;36;19

Unknown

And anybody who's ever lived in, or owned, a historic home or really old home like this, I think

will appreciate this pairing. So, yeah, it's got great charm. And I love that it kept, like, a lot of the

original hardware like these old glass doorknobs, but it's what, one of those small reminders, like

in your day to day, every time I open or close the door, like this knob will just fall apart.

00;09;36;22 - 00;09;55;09

Unknown

So it reminds me of that scene, and, it's, It's a Wonderful Life where George Bailey always grabs

that loose banister knob at the top of the stairwell and what comes off in his hand, and he just

wants to kind of hurl it. But, I love the charm, but it's also a good reminder of the, the reality.

00;09;55;09 - 00;10;17;24

Unknown

along at this point. So, Gene, quick intro and your pairing. You want me to do an intro myself or

an intro to my pairing intro yourself, and then your pairing? Well, you kind of covered it.

00;10;17;27 - 00;10;46;20

Unknown

I teach at MIT. I run a few centers here. Air Force officer, immigrant to the country. I pretty

much covers most of it. My parents, my pairing. I thought about this a little bit. I thought I might

as well go super wonky. And for the purposes of the topic of this discussion. So I went with

dilutive and non dilutive capital, which is super lame, but it's the only thing I could think of.

00;10;46;23 - 00;11;10;06

Unknown

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So and for a better pairing, I would I thought of because I talked,

like a class for an accelerator at Harvard last night, and there's an MIT Harvard National Security

Conference coming up beginning April. And I thought people should know about. So my second

pairing is MIT and Harvard.

00;11;10;09 - 00;11;18;19

Unknown

So we'll go with that one there. Yeah, I dig it. It's tough to argue with either of those.

00;11;18;21 - 00;11;47;01

Unknown

Topical. Topical is nothing else. Yes. Yeah. We have, you know, some, some venture, you know,

partner here. So I'm sure the, the living under the, the funding one will resonate as well. On that

note, Jake, quick intro and your pairing. Yeah. Jake Chapman, managing director at Marc

Ventures, we invest in early stage companies building, tech that's relevant to national security.

00;11;47;03 - 00;12;09;22

Unknown

Lawyer early in my life. Try very hard not to practice law, but once your partners find out that

you were a lawyer at some point in time. You know, contracts just end up in your inbox, and

people have just quick questions. The questions, I assume it's like when you're a doctor and

everyone's trying to show you their moles, you know, it's like, right, bro, there's a reason I don't

do this anymore.

00;12;09;25 - 00;12;27;21

Unknown

Because I wasn't good. That's why you don't. You don't want me as a lawyer. All right. So did I.

I've never been to the Harvard MIT conference, but, I've got an East Coast partner, so he's always

the one that goes and raves about it, so I feel like I'm always missing out. Should come this year.

00;12;27;23 - 00;12;53;11

Unknown

This is the year I know, I know, I need to make it happen. All right, so my pairing is, stage one.

Wife and daughter are out of town. Stage two is I get to watch old war movies. Yeah, without

being made fun of, as a stereotypical middle aged man. So, hunt for Red October and a glass of

bourbon.

00;12;53;11 - 00;13;16;25

Unknown

Definitely, up there. Maybe. Fury. Another great one. Ice Maverick. Right? Like, that's not an old

war movie. It's it's a new one, but it's it's, solid. So. Yeah, I would, I love it. In fact, I had a

similar pairing at one point, which was. Yeah. House two myself, wife and daughter are gone.

And I was getting into, like, hardcore documentaries, like, that's my thing.

00;13;16;25 - 00;13;32;07

Unknown

She's like, no distractions and you can just be glued to it versus like, oh yeah, asking questions

like what? What's going on here? What are you watching it. It's like, now I got to be in it so I can

feel you on the, the war movies, for sure. I mean, you gotta you gotta be sucked into it.

00;13;32;07 - 00;13;52;10

Unknown

And so it's tough to do that. There's any sort of distractions, but, yeah, I, I just, I binge the Wyatt

Earp like, docu drama on Netflix not that long ago. Get all good. It definitely got made fun of for

watching that one. You guys, you guys go to bed. I'll be up in a couple hours. Yeah. Keep that to

yourself.

00;13;52;12 - 00;14;15;21

Unknown

Good stuff. All right. Love it. Pretty pretty, pretty, exciting new pairings. I think we we haven't

touched on before, so we'll have to see that. And then, again, really excited to have you guys join

us. Appreciate it. And excited to to dive into a little bit more on the topic. So, let's, let's kind of,

you know, pivot again, again into, the, the heart of, of today's episode.

00;14;15;21 - 00;14;34;10

Unknown

So like I mentioned earlier, we're we're going to discuss, you know, dual use technology. I can

tell you firsthand, too. I mean, the in the last, you know, 3 to 4 years on our podcast alone, this

topic comes up countless times. And every time it does, you know, we have folks who are very

passionate and oftentimes, you know, maybe one sided on the subject.

00;14;34;12 - 00;14;59;09

Unknown

I mean, like, they're either a big fan of it, supportive, you know, building for diverse customer

base or they're a little dismissive of the concept and believe it, it can be a distraction and maybe

sometimes detrimental to a founder's focus. And then there's this dual use. You know, I'm sure

you guys hear it all the time of, I'm like this chicken or the egg dilemma of, you know, should

should it it should be commercial use case and then transition.

00;14;59;10 - 00;15;19;19

Unknown

Transition to a defense application or vice versa. So everyone's got an opinion on this stuff. I'm

pumped to have you all, you know, in kind of this more well-rounded perspective that you will

bring to the conversation. So the way I kind of see the conversation flowing, have both of you

guys speak your piece on the subject?

00;15;19;21 - 00;15;39;18

Unknown

We'll talk about some of the opportunities, some of the challenges, and then, you know, some

recommendations on where the future of the space might be going. I want to begin with, Eugene.

Now that you've done a ton of research on the subject and, as a result, you know, you guys at

MIT are working to help better solve the the dual use pitfalls that many startups tend to make.

00;15;39;18 - 00;16;00;22

Unknown

So there you get start with, give a quick overview of on the work that you're doing and and how

are you navigating these founders that are coming through the program. Yeah, sure. Thanks, for

our leading. Excuse me. Well, so I guess, it goes back probably to when I joined MIT. I came in,

outside. I've never worked in academia before.

00;16;00;22 - 00;16;25;07

Unknown

I got hired out of working on a startup and going to business school here, and, everything I was

focused on, I was the director of the innovation initiative here at Information Center. Everything

I was focused on was internal facing MIT, how to make innovation work better here, everything

like that. So on. For the first time, probably in my adult life, I had nothing to do with, defense or

national security or anything.

00;16;25;09 - 00;16;49;14

Unknown

And that was great. It was super interesting. But all of this stuff just kept following me up here.

So all of my networks, because I've been in for so long, you know, there's lots of lots of people

that were interested in working with MIT, and I was, you know, conduit to that. And so just by

pure demand signal, we had to basically, set up a center or start a program to just meet and talk to

all these different government groups and startups.

00;16;49;14 - 00;17;09;12

Unknown

I wanted to work with defense and all this sort of stuff because it was just too much inbound.

Interest. And that's why I hire people and things like that, which kind of evolved into a

curriculum. Right? Because, you know, at some point you can't just one off tell people, you

know, have meetings with people and explain to them, well, this is how you know, this is how

this works, and this is what SBIR is and all this sort of stuff.

00;17;09;12 - 00;17;32;27

Unknown

And, you know, let's build a class that's build something for, for people to, to kind of enjoy and

mass or take part of a mass. So we built a, two day curriculum for dual use. And it was five years

ago. And, and just by, you know, nature of the niche, we were one of the first to teach it formally

and create a curriculum and a pedagogy around it and became really popular.

00;17;33;04 - 00;17;56;23

Unknown

And this is when, you know, the convergence was happening with dual use. It was still early,

though, and then NATO came along and started Diana. And it happened to be that we were one

of the few people in the world that were teaching dual use. And so we became the NATO Diana

curriculum provider. And I taught the dual use introduction class, and that just kind of opened the

floodgates.

00;17;56;25 - 00;18;22;13

Unknown

And now it's just it's, it's like this fundamental, portion part of our, our, work here is to help

startups, particularly those that are commercially focused. I've never worked with government or

defense or mission. So those are the kind of the best. But, you know, certainly those that also

have dabbled to really understand how to engage and become a dual use, strategy company.

00;18;22;13 - 00;18;52;05

Unknown

And that's one of the foundational aspects of the of our the thesis is that do use as a strategy. It's

not a sector. It's not a category. We've written extensively on it. In fact, the the article we wrote,

the reason I thought it would be a great pairing is because we wrote an article for one of the

rocks on the topic, and just out of, you know, respect and, and also to, to poke a little bit, we, we

quoted Jake in our article because he said he took the opposite viewpoint.

00;18;52;07 - 00;19;13;19

Unknown

You know, the opposite. He took a different viewpoint, I think. I think, you know, probably 80%

coverage on most things or just some there's some things in there that were that we kind of didn't,

didn't, we took advantage of, perspectives on weight. Jake had a spicy take on something, you're

saying like, I, I like to just repeat what everyone else has already said.

00;19;13;19 - 00;19;36;17

Unknown

He started. Yeah. He started is what I'm saying. I didn't I'm not. I'm not judging. I'm just saying

he started. So, so, anyway, so that's kind of where we are on the, on that side of it. And then on

the other side, it's kind of the startup side on the other side, we work like, as I mentioned, NATO,

NATO through the Diana program and with Special Operations Command.

00;19;36;17 - 00;20;01;07

Unknown

So, we built a class with them at MIT as well, where they come in and engage directly with

students on design, build curriculum where we have like this area way oversubscribed class to

many students. We had to, kind of actually cut it down and then break up into teams and they

take hard problems. And so com provides and they build solutions to and I think that's a super

super cool.

00;20;01;10 - 00;20;38;17

Unknown

Yeah. One of my favorite things to do is teach that class. So that's, that's where we're coming

from. That's we have we have a very strong position. It's not I don't think it's controversial. Is that

any company that has anything even, you know, relatively, resembling a capability for, for

defense or the or government should at least look at the options for non dilutive funding and for

customers inside the government as, just as a way to continue building, the product that the

company and I've obviously going to build on a little bit of that oracle that, that Jake wrote.

00;20;38;18 - 00;21;00;19

Unknown

So I think there's some things that, pick out there as well, that are super relevant to the

conversation. But the, just for our listeners, the NATO. Diana, is this a dual use accelerator?

They're doing this technology accelerator, is that right? So Diana is, NATO's. Yeah, accelerator

program. So they basically, it's pretty audacious, to be honest with you.

00;21;00;19 - 00;21;24;08

Unknown

I'm not very impressive. They did this as well as the sister program is the NATO Innovation

Fund, which is a legit VC fund that NATO started. And the LPs are the NATO countries. Not all

of them, but a good portion of them. The US is not one of them, actually, to be honest. But, the

Diana program is their accelerator network.

00;21;24;08 - 00;21;44;06

Unknown

And what they do is they do a call for startups around these different categories, these these

problem areas. And then startups are assigned to now 13 different accelerator sites across the

NATO, footprint. And so we developed like the curriculum that the accelerators teach to the

startups. And then I teach the intro to the do use class for those guys.

00;21;44;08 - 00;22;05;13

Unknown

So that really took what was like a niche, right? Like a lot of people interested in it growing, but

still, you know, fairly, mission to like now to the scale of NATO, Europe, North America. It's it's

really been a huge enabler for us. Yeah, I want to I want to build a little bit more on this

framework that you you all kind of came up with it.

00;22;05;15 - 00;22;23;08

Unknown

But before we do so I'm gonna jump over to Jake real quick. So, yeah, Gene kind of referenced

it. You wrote a little bit of a spicy piece a few years ago, on War on the rocks. That was, titled

reliance on the use technology is a trap. So what sparked you to put that piece out there?

00;22;23;08 - 00;22;57;15

Unknown

And what were you seeing in the market that motivated you to speak on the subject? Yeah. I

mean, I so I like to look at the predominant narratives and then ask myself, how are the these

narratives wrong? Because I think that they often are. But very few people poke at the things that

become fairly dogmatic, and dual use or the importance of dual use or the need to be a dual use

company was definitely and still is, the the dominant narrative in, folks who are investing in

defense.

00;22;57;15 - 00;23;30;20

Unknown

And it's also the dominant narrative for how the Defense Department thinks it should be working

with companies. So I started thinking about it in the first moment. The first thing that occurred to

me was the actual narrative that the department puts out there. That's so it's I've heard it

explicitly expressed, but it's often implicit is what we want is we want you to build a commercial

product first, because we want you to have plenty of commercial revenue such that you can

survive working through our processes.

00;23;30;22 - 00;23;55;14

Unknown

And I said, well, that's an interesting thing to say, right? Because what you're doing is you are

acknowledging that you're a bad customer, that your processes are suck and that your customers

or your vendors might not survive working with you. And so rather than say, I need to look

internally and like, fix my processes, what you've said is let someone else get you along and then

you know, you'll muddle through and work with us.

00;23;55;14 - 00;24;10;15

Unknown

Right? And it's like, that's that's messed up, right? This is a this is a Band-Aid. It's not an actual

fix. But I didn't really have much more of the thesis yet. I was like, but this is definitely it means

that we should be thinking more about is to use, is the narrative around to use the right narrative?

00;24;10;15 - 00;24;48;01

Unknown

And so I started thinking more and more about it. And, I just I realized that there were a bunch of

reasons why that that particular iteration of dual use was problematic. And so I think the, the

biggest ones are the two biggest. I mean, I think in the article I list out like six different reasons.

And I've, I've since expanded on a little bit in my own mind, although haven't published, but, if

you're looking at dual use technology from the government perspective or as an American patriot

or someone who just wants us to have a strong national defense, and the narrative is build

something in for a commercial industry first and then

00;24;48;01 - 00;25;16;22

Unknown

take it to the Department of Defense. What you were doing is you were saying you start on day

zero with the interesting technology in year five, six, seven. Once you found product market fit,

now you can come and build out the product team in the sales team and start working for

competition and we were, you know, fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq.

00;25;16;25 - 00;25;39;15

Unknown

I don't think that works when the predominant adversaries, China, who is ahead of us in some

technology areas and slightly behind us and others, but we can't build in a 5 or 10 year capability

gap, like we have to actually be trying to put our best tech forward on day one, and that that

means we can't be commercial first to use unless we're just willing to accept defeat.

00;25;39;17 - 00;25;57;27

Unknown

So that was the from the patriotic side. I think that's the best argument to not rely on dual use

from the investor side was just like, actually this is early stage. This is more about sequencing.

No early stage company can afford to actually be dual use in my mind. I shouldn't say no. There's

always like the rare exception, right?

00;25;57;27 - 00;26;13;24

Unknown

But 99% of the time, the thing you are building, it will be slightly different from the Department

of Defense or very different. It's very it's rare if it's pure courts, I just I do the thing, I consult

each person. Right? I make duct tape. I can sell duct tape to the Army. I can sell duct tape to

Home Depot.

00;26;13;26 - 00;26;43;28

Unknown

Very rare for that. And so what that means is you need two product teams, two engineering

teams. More importantly, you need two sales teams. The sales motion for, PDG is so different

from B2C or B2B. It's not the same people, and no company with a $2 million seed round can

actually afford to be dual use. When you go raise your series B if you started in the commercial

markets, you started in the defense markets, like now's the time to start opening up new markets.

00;26;44;00 - 00;27;02;14

Unknown

And I think that's actually that aspect is where Gene and I agree most is it's about, if you are

going to be dual use, do it in in series, not in parallel most of the time. And, you know, Gene's

rubric is really about, I think, helping companies figure out what is the right time to shift gears.

00;27;02;16 - 00;27;22;23

Unknown

And for us, we just think about it as a stage. But he's he's got a little bit more granular. Take.

Yeah. And I really like the way, Gene put it is it's a strategy because I think having been through

it work in different ways because I was at different stage companies.

00;27;22;25 - 00;27;45;07

Unknown

That's that it was really about sequencing. And I think the notion of putting it as a strategy lets

you then say like, because what I experience in any number of companies was a push and pull,

like, we can make it was they were the these two things were working against each other. And so

when you have that it's it's combative as opposed to collaborative or whatever you might call into

sort of putting it under a strategy makes a lot more sense.

00;27;45;07 - 00;28;06;01

Unknown

Like, hey, this is we're going to do this and then this is how we're going to expand it. I really like

that notion. I'd love to hear more. Sort of. Yeah. Jake, I thought it was I thought your your piece

was, intriguing. Like how you broke down into, like, these, you know, four different categories

of dual use, like commercial, commercial or commercial defense against defense and so forth.

00;28;06;04 - 00;28;33;05

Unknown

And I do want to kind of piggyback on, like, you know, almost like these the, the tears or like the

series, the growth gene. You kind of put together like the readiness level framework. Can you

expand on that and kind of, build on like a little bit of what Jake speaking on on how you all are,

you know, like molding from the from the beginning on how to best, you know, grow and do it

sustainably.

00;28;33;07 - 00;28;55;23

Unknown

Yeah. I will disagree a little bit with the Jake setting that, I don't think, or maybe I'll just I'll say it

in the positive. We've seen many examples, dozens, if not hundreds of examples of start ups,

companies that before, like the series Airbnb, have been able to navigate what we believe would

be an ideal use strategy.

00;28;55;23 - 00;29;15;06

Unknown

So I do think they're capable of doing it. I don't think you need multiple sales teams. I think,

there are, I think levels of the engagement with the government that I think that's the core of it is,

is that, between our our positions is what are we actually talking about when we're saying dual

use, like going and getting a phase one?

00;29;15;06 - 00;29;33;00

Unknown

SBIR then never coming back to work with, government again. You know, that's a dual use

strategy. That's that's one way to do it. And then there's a lot there's much more involved ways to

do it. So I I've seen enough definitely disagree there. Right. Like I would say that that's not dual

use. That's that's leveraging a government program.

00;29;33;03 - 00;29;57;17

Unknown

And as an, as an investor which, which we both are it's great when your companies get non

dilutive money. Right. But then as an American I would say man that feels that doesn't feel great.

Like my taxpayer dollars went to the cyber program that's being directed by the Department of

Defense. And while you can hack it for non dilutive funding is do we actually want as taxpayers

companies saying yeah I'm going to build the defense product.

00;29;57;17 - 00;30;19;19

Unknown

You should give me this grant. And then never having the intent to go back right. Well that's kind

of like we fought for like civil mills. Right. And I don't I don't know if that's, you know, what

we're really talking about as an example, you know, I don't think we're talking about several. I, I

think, everybody agrees that you should you should actually have some kind of purpose to

pursuing.

00;30;19;22 - 00;31;01;12

Unknown

Well, I mean, just relying on that point on, for, for a few minutes before we move on. You know,

I get the opportunity to teach in, you know, many different countries on the side, our 40 year now

every government, organization, with $100 million or more budget to put aside 3.4% of their

budget towards small business set aside that has, you know, you have to have less than 500

people in the company, etc., etc. that is the cheat code for the rest of the world.

00;31;01;15 - 00;31;23;29

Unknown

I mean, there's no other no no European, no Asia, no nobody else in the world allows small

businesses to engage with the government in a way that we do. It is absolutely our superpower. It

is. Yes, of course, of that 3.4% of a government agencies budget, there will be companies that

take it, develop the technology and then go and do nothing with the government for the rest of

their life.

00;31;23;29 - 00;31;50;16

Unknown

But remember, that's one phase one of any agency in the US. Government allows you to now

sole source to the government based on that, on that specific technology chain, going forward at

any point. So that vehicle, the ability for a startup like a person that is building something on

their own without, you know, the advantages of all these different, you know, huge, you know,

system integrators and everything else.

00;31;50;16 - 00;32;08;24

Unknown

Some of that's really being innovative to directly engage with the government to talk directly

with someone in the Air Force and the NSF and the NIH, build something for AI capability for

them, engage with them, and then decide, is our superpower. Nobody else in the world,

everybody else who wishes they had programs like this, we we've had it for 40 years.

00;32;08;26 - 00;32;27;07

Unknown

And so I think one of the prices you pay for that is that not every you cannot optimize for the

perfect right. You can't possibly create a system where every single company that gets a phase

one with every single agency will then continue to do phase three and, you know, build a

product. That's not going to happen. I don't think we want that to happen.

00;32;27;07 - 00;32;46;03

Unknown

I think what ends up being what we end up building as an industrial base of startups and people

that have worked with the government, engaged directly with the mission, engaged directly with

the user, and those are the future companies that will be working to support us. And so it's a very

clear cut in my eyes, like I've seen everywhere else.

00;32;46;03 - 00;33;08;20

Unknown

And they all wish they were us. And it's, like I think it was Churchill. I can't remember who gets

credit for this. I believe it's Charles. And you know, it's the worst system in the world. Except for

all the others. This is 100%, as is the case for ours, like, SBIR is not perfect, but it is by far the

best system out there for direct engagement with, with the government.

00;33;08;23 - 00;33;30;24

Unknown

So I guess I'm curious in terms of, you know, the, the, the framework that you're you stood up,

Gene. You know, what what is it that you're guiding them on or there's some core principles that

you're helping them to navigate. And then if they are going down the path of, you know,

obtaining a SBIR, you know, are there designated steps towards expanding on that, or is it more

around, okay, the capital is here.

00;33;30;24 - 00;34;04;01

Unknown

Now let's talk about how we use this for both sides. Yeah. So yeah, let's I don't want to over

exaggerate the usefulness of a model in any case. Like, you know, we're in academia, so, you

know, we're contractually obligated to build models and do stuff like this, but, you know, it's I

think it's useful in, in the, in the very early stages to understand context and where you, where

you sit in the world and then try to paint a linear path along these different axes that you should

be using some very general framework.

00;34;04;01 - 00;34;19;25

Unknown

Right. That's that's all this is. It's I'm starting out, I don't know what my mission customer is. I

don't know what, you know, my commercial funding options are I'm a, you know, commercial

funding readiness level one. I, I can read two, three, 4 or 5, six and I kind of know where I

should be going in general.

00;34;19;25 - 00;34;55;06

Unknown

And then the same with those four other. But in some ways that is what that told us. Like it

provides a baseline. Understand and a language and a lexicon. And we're actually building an AI

tool to accommodate, to accompany it because, you know, again, we can't answer every inquiry

in scale. So if you want to know a little bit more about CF, RL three, you know, we were training

a model to basically be able to kind of dig deep and explain to you based upon your particular

company what that would might mean, where you might want to go looking for potential

customers over funding.

00;34;55;06 - 00;35;21;17

Unknown

So, it's a model. I think it's a good model, but models academic models and things like that all

have, certainly have very, very, strong limitations. And they don't really there's no way to

represent the real world. But you can get a good estimation. I want to build on on Jake, you

know, something that you pointed out in your, in your piece, which I think is super relevant and

timely.

00;35;21;20 - 00;35;49;23

Unknown

And what's going on in today's kind of government ecosystem. But it sounds to me like a part of

that was, solving, you know, the, the defense challenges by enhancing, like, the DoD role as a

customer. Can you kind of build on, like, what, you know, what you're leaning into there in terms

of, what you're hoping, you know, might come by way of some of the changes that are happening

across the ecosystem at large right now.

00;35;49;26 - 00;36;10;07

Unknown

Sure. Yeah. So those of us who, like to criticize the system, we we all do it with love, right? We

just want to be better. Most of the folks in that class. Right? Like, that's all my friends. And so I

feel like everyone does. But then I'm like, no, it's just like the echo chamber I'm in.

00;36;10;09 - 00;36;29;17

Unknown

Almost everyone criticizes the acquisition system. So this is me trying to be, spicy again. And I

actually think that, there's three parts to how the DoD buys things are like three main muscle

movements. There's the acquisitions process, which is like contracting and like managing

contracts. There's the requirements process, the main one of which is called jay-zs.

00;36;29;17 - 00;36;53;18

Unknown

But there's like several ways to run those traps. And then the third one is the process. So it's

budgeting. So it's actually moving money through Congress to the programs. Everyone

complains about acquisitions because that's where rubber meets the road for industry for the

most part. The other two processes happen behind the scenes, although are at least as important

as acquisitions in terms of like whether or not your company will ever be successful.

00;36;53;21 - 00;37;29;06

Unknown

So everyone complains about acquisitions. In fact, I think acquisitions are the most fixed of the

three. The the requirements process and the budgeting process are profoundly broken, and the

thing that's weird about the acquisitions process is it's not that they've fixed the core acquisition

processes, but that Congress has made so many hacks and workarounds to the acquisitions

process that the core acquisition process, which is managed by, the, the FA, the Federal

Acquisition Regulations and the divorce, the defense supplement to that, there's so many hacks

that you actually don't even need to use the core process anymore.

00;37;29;06 - 00;37;50;05

Unknown

For instance, the the biggest hack is probably OTAs or CSOs, which is what do pushes money

through. In theory, those don't even need to be competed. If you can, write a justification for why

they don't if they you do need to compete them a phase one cyber, as Jean said, can be used as

your your competition justification.

00;37;50;08 - 00;38;13;09

Unknown

You could put $500 million through those contracts without a competition. And you can do it in,

you know, a matter of a couple months. That's a that's a fixed process. If you just want to use the

hacks, the the real challenge is that exists today are still in, requirements. And. Right. And that's

where the government runs the bureaucratic process where they officially recognized they have a

problem they need to solve.

00;38;13;09 - 00;38;33;16

Unknown

And they need to put money behind solving it. And that process can take several years. And then

obviously, I mean, budgeting. I think you've probably talked to the other folks about at some

point, but, you know, we are in the process. I think right now the DoD is in the process of

creating their next five year plan like a nice communist, organization would.

00;38;33;19 - 00;38;53;04

Unknown

or something. Right. And then you just can't. It's an impossibility because they don't they don't

exist. And it's very hard for them to have flexibility once those budgets pass.

00;38;53;06 - 00;39;10;14

Unknown

So, what was your original question? I've gone off on a tangent here, but but that's what I'm

thinking about. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, that's kind of what I was into, like, what are you in the

government of there being for. Yes. Like, like what kind of change are you are hoping for that

that's most needed.

00;39;10;17 - 00;39;34;08

Unknown

Given you know what we've what we've seen over the last, you know, 20, 30 years whatnot.

Requirements reform is supposed to be happening right now. I think that's happening very

slowly. The PBA reform, commission happened a year ago, two years ago. Their

recommendations will come through. Some of those are getting picked up. But nowhere near

enough change is happening there.

00;39;34;08 - 00;39;58;17

Unknown

So, like, maybe Doge at some point we'll get a hold of it. Although I suspect that Doge will go

back to acquisitions and try and fix acquisitions first, because that's again, probably where

they're hearing the most, complaint, even if it's the most solved of the three. Yeah. I'm curious to

hear your thoughts on this in terms of, you know, what you're hoping for in terms of reform,

change.

00;39;58;19 - 00;40;35;10

Unknown

I think I think there's some really interesting, reforms coming through Congress right now. You

know, some, good friend, Warren Katz, and the alliance is trying to push through, you know, an

evolved SBIR, kind of, reform and improvement, which will actually eliminate the kind of SBIR

mill concept, or the capability that we talked about a little earlier or increase the increase the, the

mandatory pool, and, you know, instituted a tag for I start by kind of model for everybody to use.

00;40;35;12 - 00;40;56;12

Unknown

And so I think that sounds like a great idea. It sounds like it's very likely to to pass. It's got a lot

of support, bipartisan support. And then there's everybody is proposing that this is this is the time

to start throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, in DC because, I'm not sure there's, anyone

at the, at the wheel right now.

00;40;56;12 - 00;41;24;21

Unknown

I think it's just pure chaos. So, you know, it's a good time to try to push through some change.

Because, you know, people are a little distracted over here. But, you know, I, I guess I can't

underscore this idea enough, and I'm all with Jake on this. I mean, everybody's been criticizing

the acquisition process, and we certainly do have a million different workarounds, and they're

getting basically codified now.

00;41;24;21 - 00;41;48;20

Unknown

I mean, it's coming out the fact that OTAs might be more popular than regulations at this point.

By, by, by the way, that they're getting pushed everywhere. I just I want to underscore how much

better our system is, and it's only in that context that I fear that we're trying to, fix something that

isn't perfect.

00;41;48;22 - 00;42;14;03

Unknown

Right. And it is not perfect, but it was developed to be slow and cumbersome. And, you know,

avoid fraud, waste and abuse, right? Because that's the era where the FA was developed. That's

what everyone was afraid of. So there's not a model for the time, but that doesn't mean that it is

not still better than everything else out there and that we don't have any proof.

00;42;14;05 - 00;42;36;17

Unknown

And this is my warning. We don't have any proof that if we break it, it's going to be it's going to

work better and be more effective. But we have a pretty good proof that, by using it as a

foundation and doing the things that we do to kind of work around the edges and do the best we

can.

00;42;36;17 - 00;42;57;03

Unknown

And now evolving it, it's it's a pretty good system, and I just worry that we tend to always fall

back to, let's burn it to the ground and, in this case, I can tell you there's there's nothing out there

better for us to model. If we burned to the ground struggle. Yeah. Something that comes to mind

for us just kind of growing up in this area.

00;42;57;03 - 00;43;30;07

Unknown

And, you know, we've dealt a lot with talent, recruiting, specific for, you know, starting with

government contracting shops and then leading into more commercial products, startup

environments. And, you know, the one of the things that we've seen is, you know, there's

obviously a difference there when you look at engineers that may have been building in large,

you know, five, ten year contract environments versus product engineers that are building

something that's, you know, really quick and, you know, shipping, you know, more frequently

and rapidly.

00;43;30;09 - 00;44;04;06

Unknown

And so what I see a lot of of, of transition happening here is and it's, you know, it's almost an

entire system that they're trying you know, they're trying to kind of poke holes at. But I went

digging down a rabbit hole in an article that jumped out to me was something written by Trey

Stevens is one of the co-founders of Angel, which is called Innovation Deficit why DC's Losing

largely the way that government acquires softwares with this labor based.

00;44;04;06 - 00;44;22;26

Unknown

But and see it's model and that doesn't always account for like, individual exceptionalism, if you

will. And so I pull a pull a piece of this article verbatim. So I think it's, it's interesting and I'd like

to hear, you know, Mike, what your thoughts are on this, but also, you know, Jake and Gene, it's

something comes to mind.

00;44;22;26 - 00;44;49;06

Unknown

But it says the average request for proposal, RFP involving software development services

requires estimates on count of full time equivalent FTEs is to be engaged in the effort. A basis of

estimate modeling FTE is the labor categories and the FTE blend deployed against RFP

requirements and delivery dates requirement. SSC needs 2.5 engineers for six months to

complete this process massively.

00;44;49;06 - 00;45;10;07

Unknown

Disadvantages efficient, more talented teams because a talent gap between average and excellent

so large, it would generally be better to have one LeBron level coder than to have 100 average

ones. I was this guy's a fan of LeBron James. But, you know this what comes to mind when you

hear when you hear this, excerpt? Jake?

00;45;10;10 - 00;45;30;18

Unknown

Yeah. I mean, I mean, he's mostly talk about cost plus contracting, right? I mean, specifically in

the software dimension. So the software is I mean, it has been not great at acquiring software.

The there's new policy in place as of like 2 or 3 days ago or 3 or 4 days ago, trying to move this

to smarter software acquisitions, more firm fixed price.

00;45;30;20 - 00;45;54;03

Unknown

I'll generalize it though, and I'll just talk about cost plus. Right. So that dude likes to buy things

on cost plus fixed fee CPF, which means that you, the company, have to track all of your

expenses. And it's extremely complicated. Startups can't do it, or if you do it, it's a huge expense.

Takes years to set the right systems, and then the department will pay you your costs plus a fixed

profit margin.

00;45;54;03 - 00;46;11;05

Unknown

And so that margin is fixed at, let's say, 8%. Usually it's like, you know, 8 to 12 or something like

that. It's relatively low, which does a couple of things. One, it means that no startup, no venture

backed startup is ever going to do fixed fee if they can avoid it, because that's not what their

investors paid them to do.

00;46;11;05 - 00;46;42;16

Unknown

They're not paid to make 10% margin on what they do right to. It means that the incentive

structure is to generate more costs. The more costs you generate, the higher your top line, and the

more your executives get paid. Like totally broken. So why do we have a totally broken cost plus

fixed fee system? The thesis that the department had when these first came about was, we need

Lockheed or Martin Marietta or whoever at the time to build a system that they have no idea how

to build.

00;46;42;16 - 00;47;01;09

Unknown

And it will you know, be lasers and rockets and whatever. Right. Very complicated. No private

company can take that risk on or is willing to take that risk on. So we're going to hire them to do

it. But we, the government are going to assume all of the development risk. That's why we pay

you your costs plus a fixed margin, because we're going to take all the risk.

00;47;01;09 - 00;47;23;23

Unknown

I'm not going to let you make 80% margins, right. That's a fair trade. The problem is, is that the

government really started to like that contracting model. And so they've applied it in a lot of

other places. So I would say cost plus makes sense for some things. Still, if you're building the

next stealth aircraft or space laser sort of missile defense system, you're gonna invest billions of

dollars in doing it.

00;47;23;23 - 00;47;45;07

Unknown

It might make sense to be cost. Plus, if you are trying to work with startups and you want like

small attributable system, treatable systems, you should be doing fixed fee like let them make

whatever margin they want and drive costs as low as they can and just deliver the best capability

for the best cost. Yeah. Well said.

00;47;45;09 - 00;48;01;25

Unknown

Gene, anything to add on to that? I mean, again, this is again more geared towards the software

side of things, but I think that's a lot of the areas that we focus in on, predominantly has been

software. And it's been really challenging to, to see any of that change in the last several years.

Yeah.

00;48;01;25 - 00;48;23;28

Unknown

I mean, this is one area where Jake and I completely agree. And he did mention that, you know,

Pete Sites put out a, memo like two days ago that basically said we're going to change the way

we require software to believe. You said maximize lethality, which is an interesting combination

of, ideas. Very spicy sauce, very intense.

00;48;23;28 - 00;48;58;18

Unknown

Yeah. We just, you know, so, yeah, I think I don't have any, any, divergence from here, from,

from Jake's point, and that the model, that model, the acquisition model, the, the reimbursement

model has to, has to be fixed because we are just rapidly, you know, just falling, into a world

where exquisite systems will not be able to, be sustained.

00;48;58;21 - 00;49;30;20

Unknown

There'll be such a asymmetry in cost, in warfare that if you if you're building aircraft carriers that

can get taken out by $700, speedboat with some explosives strapped to it, you can no longer

afford to focus those kind of on those systems for warfare. And so you're going to have to figure

out how to buy huge, flexible, adaptable, expandable systems and enormous quantities.

00;49;30;22 - 00;49;58;03

Unknown

And, and, operate them with software, safe, secure on, you know, on unspeakable on damnable

software. And so, that's that's the world. There's no doubt that's what we're going for in our, in

our system right now will not be able to sustain that kind of those kind of acquisitions, that's for

sure. Yeah. I think that's kind of where, you know, a little bit of a change of the guards with some

of these big primes.

00;49;58;05 - 00;50;26;09

Unknown

Is going to be already starting to see with the likes of, like Angel and Palantir. But I guess in

closing, any final thoughts on the dual use? We'll, we'll transition here to a final segment, called

five second scramble. But any any closing remarks before we, we wrap it, wrap it up. I mean,

I've thought since I wrote that article, I have tried to, in my mind, build a deeper ontology for

dual use.

00;50;26;11 - 00;50;44;24

Unknown

And I haven't written about this yet, but I have decided that actually to the for the commercial

first sort of commercial second commercial first defense, it like the way that I built it out in the

article, it's actually only one quadrant of like the bigger dual use bucket. And I think we today we

always talk about dual use of outputs.

00;50;44;24 - 00;51;10;26

Unknown

So is the widget you build useful for industry. And is it also useful for defense. But actually the

the original dual use bucket was dual use of inputs. It was Freedom's forge. It was can your

factory build cars and tanks right. It was your capital equipment, your capital investment and the.

We don't talk enough these days about dual use of inputs and maybe optimizing industry to be

flippable in a mobilization scenario.

00;51;10;28 - 00;51;39;17

Unknown

And that's a underinvested in aspect of dual use. And like the one that's maybe it's not easy, but

it's like the easiest to get behind. And then the third category, that I'm trying to think through is

dual use of outcomes, which is extremely spicy. And I'll give you an example. That's not a good

practical example, but if I owned a cobalt mine in Africa, and then the largest other cobalt mine

is in South America, and, someone were to blow up the cobalt mine in South America.

00;51;39;17 - 00;52;03;18

Unknown

And that was a Chinese owned mine. Then I, as the private sector, am now doing really well with

my African mine. And we've had a national security, benefit. And so, like, what are the ways in

which just industry operating as industry and government operating as government can hand in

hand, drive positive outcomes? Anyway, that's that's what I'm ruminating on.

00;52;03;18 - 00;52;21;16

Unknown

And to use these days, it's, it's interesting because you're, you're that other example the, the

different inputs. That was my first experience in two years. We had an, natural language

processing engine. The commercial use was voice of the customer. What are how is my product

being received? How do we ingest Twitter and do all this?

00;52;21;18 - 00;52;44;11

Unknown

My side. But that side, we were using it for, finding bad actors. You know, left of boom outputs.

Let's analyze all these documents and cables on this other stuff and try and figure out, like, what

led to this bad event and, then use it to then go find other bad actors. And but it was the exact

same engine as a natural language processing engine, but two completely different use cases.

00;52;44;13 - 00;53;04;24

Unknown

One, that was very government oriented. And so, I think, and I like that. I mean, I like that, that

that was how like the we had built an engine that could be used in these very different scenarios.

Yeah. Yeah. Any any last remarks? Gene.

00;53;04;27 - 00;53;27;02

Unknown

No, I think, I think I got everything, Yeah, I think I'm a good call. You know, some more will

come, of this last segment too, as well. We'll we'll wrap it up here in the next, five minutes. So

this is, a quick rapid fire Q&A. Five seconds scramble. Try to rattle your answers in less than

five seconds.

00;53;27;05 - 00;53;45;19

Unknown

Mike, why don't you lead with Gene? And then I will, wrap with Jake. All right. You ready to go,

Gene? Let's do it. All right. So what's your favorite part of the culture at MIT?

00;53;45;21 - 00;54;01;15

Unknown

The general leaning into the nerd culture. Nobody. It is not a, four letter word at MIT. This honor.

Nice. What's something that surprised you about working with startups?

00;54;01;18 - 00;54;36;05

Unknown

How bad scientists are at, and doing anything but science. All right. Yes. What's the most

interesting piece of feedback you've received? Oh, my God. Interesting. Me, hurtful, right?

Valuable. Well, you can take it however you want. Yeah. I think that, I scare people when they

meet me. And I was telling them you stole that.

00;54;36;05 - 00;55;05;25

Unknown

Is her. Yes. No, that was useful. Oh. That's useful. Yeah, yeah. No, it's good to know. What's one

startup myth you wish to debunk? That it's fun. In retrospect, I find it fun. In retrospect, not while

I'm looking. In retrospect. It's a ton of fun. During. It's. It's stressful. Depressing. It's all kinds of

emotions. Anyway, one more fun.

00;55;05;28 - 00;55;15;16

Unknown

What's an emerging market or sector? That you think is underrated?

00;55;15;18 - 00;55;38;18

Unknown

I just got back from Ukraine, so I'm going to say the future of warfare. It's, it's a teaser, but

there's some really interesting stuff going on. It's a cool, topic. Very different day. Maybe, if you

could have one hour with any tech leader, dead or alive, who would it be? Man?

00;55;38;20 - 00;55;56;21

Unknown

I mean, it's it's it's I think it's a little, cliche, but I would have to be Steve Jobs because I want to

know. I want to debunk the myth and get to the reality. So I would just love to spend an hour and

and get to and walk out of like, oh, that was all bullshit. He's he's just completely.

00;55;56;23 - 00;56;21;02

Unknown

It was just luck. But I, I, what did you want to be when you grew up? I wanted to be an Apache

pilot in the Army, but they, they wouldn't take me at West Point, so I had to go to the Air Force.

So tell them I said that. Don't tell who air force? Yes. Air force.

00;56;21;05 - 00;56;26;28

Unknown

What's, one place you visited that you'd really like to go back to?

00;56;27;01 - 00;56;43;04

Unknown

But, Probably Tel Aviv. I've only been once. What's a charity or corporate philanthropy that's

near and dear to you?

00;56;43;06 - 00;57;06;15

Unknown

Well, I had a nonprofit in DC called The Find. It was kind of to bring the intelligence community

and small businesses together. So that's near and dear because I, I still am very close to it. So, if

anything, it would be that. Oh, what's the most controversial food combination you like or

dislike? That's that's a good question.

00;57;06;18 - 00;57;30;05

Unknown

I love beef tongue. I'm, I was I was born in, you know, the Soviet Union. So, there's some

delicacies there that that Americans would, you know, would severely, run away from. So, we

would just throw some ranch on it and be fine. I think I'll catch up on some beef tongue, but, nice

can be tongue is delicious.

00;57;30;05 - 00;57;53;29

Unknown

I just it, and last one, what's a mythical creature you wish actually existed? This is great. Good

mythical creature. I'm gonna have to think about this one I haven't thought about. I mean, this the

things that come to mind are just too, too cliche, so I gotta. I gotta get a better answer. So I'm

gonna.

00;57;54;06 - 00;58;15;09

Unknown

I'm gonna pass on this one. I can think of it towards the end of the like, if Jacob years go. Okay.

Sounds good. I love your dedication to a good answer for this one. Yeah, a everybody say

dragons. Like, that's just like the first thing that pops into you cliche, but you actually want them

to exist. I mean, maybe a million normals was mythical.

00;58;15;11 - 00;58;43;26

Unknown

Yes, I can, that's because horns came from anyway. Yeah, we can make work. We can for unicorn

horns come from like, Jake, are you ready? I'm ready, I'm ready. All right. If, Mark ventures were

an animal, what animal would it be? And why? It's, Oh, it's a good question. I'm going to go with

a wolf because the wolf pack is very important.

00;58;43;26 - 00;59;07;21

Unknown

So good. Like family, team dynamics, everything works when the team works together and we're

out there hunting. Nice wolf pack. Like it? What is your favorite stage of startup to invest in?

Yeah. Man, pre-IPO. But I want to get in real early. So, like seed stage pre-IPO. Just as long as I

know that it's going there.

00;59;07;23 - 00;59;41;23

Unknown

What are, what's the recent win at Mark that made everyone celebrate? It's a it's probably a

fundraising win for us that, we'll talk about later. So what are the top tech roles that you're seeing

your portfolio hiring most of today? I mean, everybody needs I mean, just great engineers. Most

of what we're investing in, our hardware meets software and some combination, I think, I mean,

VP of engineering always really hard to hire.

00;59;41;23 - 00;59;57;11

Unknown

Just that one, as the kids these days, say, cracked engineer to manage the rest of the team. But

what's an emerging market or a sector that you think is underrated?

00;59;57;13 - 01;00;19;01

Unknown

I think anything in the kinetic space. So stuff that goes boom. A lot of folks don't want to touch

it, but super important right now. Energy. So an energy and it's both what goes boom and what

makes the things that go boom get there faster, more efficiently. What's a charity or corporate

philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

01;00;19;03 - 01;00;54;19

Unknown

Let's see. Probably my my my daughter's, circus school where she goes and does classes. Right.

Like it's the thing that's close to home. Oh. That's cool. Yeah. How do you balance high stress,

high stress decision making with personal well-being? Alcohol. Like the cancer? No. No, no.

Great. Great family, great team. Walking the dog. Yeah.

01;00;54;19 - 01;01;22;23

Unknown

And and alcohol for the good. What's a good war movie? That's right. Yeah. What tech pioneer

do you think would be the most fun at a party? You know, I'd like to, I'll go back to the, the dead

instead of the living. And I'm going to go with, like, someone like, like Oppenheimer or Ernest

Lawrence or Vannevar Bush or Alfred Loomis, like one of that ilk.

01;01;22;26 - 01;01;31;18

Unknown

Come. What's the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed?

01;01;31;20 - 01;01;54;23

Unknown

Probably like the startup money thing, like what I'm wearing today. Yeah, I just I own it, yeah.

What, what's a hobby that you've picked up that's out of character for you? Blacksmithing. Yeah,

that's a good answer. That's a good answer. And then last one. What was your dream job as a kid?

01;01;54;25 - 01;02;13;18

Unknown

President. For sure. I wanted to be there. Now, what are we going to. When are we going to see

you? Unfortunate in fire. Oh, hi. I'm new here. I'm sorry. You can see me, but I've got, there's a

boarding ax back there. And then a friend made, and, a swag and a sword and a couple knives.

01;02;13;18 - 01;02;39;04

Unknown

But, you know, I am so slow. I would never, ever be successful on that show. But, All right, we

had to close with Jean. Jean was that mythical creature. Oh, no. I went to the internet for this to

bring exhaustive list of, mystery creatures. No, no, no, this is important. I had to make sure I

didn't get this one wrong.

01;02;39;07 - 01;02;55;07

Unknown

So, I chose the Kraken, because how cool would it be to actually in real life? Yeah. Unleash the

Kraken. Yeah. Rise and take, you know, a Chinese fleet out.

01;02;55;10 - 01;03;15;27

Unknown

This is a, you know, Jean is not a sailor. I don't think any of the Navy guys would be like. Oh,

yeah. I wish there were Kraken floating around only for the other. Maybe it's not our Navy. Yeah,

the other navies. Good stuff. That's a wrap, guys. I appreciate you guys spend time with us.

Thanks for your thoughts on dual use.

01;03;15;29 - 01;03;23;20

Unknown

Obviously top of mind right now. And in our ecosystem. And, thanks for joining us on the pod.

Thanks for having us.

01;03;23;20 - 01;03;29;24