The Future Frontlines of Defense: 3D Drones and Strategic Logistics | The Pair Program Ep59

00;00;04;13 - 00;00;32;05

Tim Winkler

Welcome to the Pair program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of hatchpad, and I'm your other host, Mike Gruen, joining us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups and career growth.

00;00;32;08 - 00;00;51;01

Unknown

Welcome back to The Pair Program. I'm your host, Tim Winkler. A little bit of a bonus episode today. We're we're piloting an episode with a special guest host joining us, Rob Murtha. Rob. Good, good having you on with this man. Yeah, it's great to be here. It was exciting. Great group of people to have my first kind of entry point for co-hosting.

00;00;51;08 - 00;01;11;23

Unknown

That's right in. And if, for those loyal listeners that, may, may remember, Rob was a past guest on the episode we released around GovTech innovation. Yeah. Excited to have you sit in for this one. We'll be diving into some some pretty cool defense tech innovation. So your background will certainly help, pick up where I can't, follow through on.

00;01;11;26 - 00;01;36;19

Unknown

But, for today, you know, we're going to be tackling, this topic of, you know, logistics and defense tech integration, and specifically, you know, tech integration at the edge. You know, it's a it's a problem area that we see a number of defense focused startups run into, especially if we're looking at regions that are super tricky to access, and are pivotal, like, Indo paycom or Indo-Pacific command.

00;01;36;21 - 00;02;08;15

Unknown

And so, this is an area that, you know, our guests today have specific ties to, and I just want to paint the picture for our listeners that aren't familiar with that term. So interplay. Com is the unified combatant command of United States Armed Forces with a mission to protect U.S. interests across the Asia-Pacific region. And so folks might ask themselves, you know, why is this region so vital and of interest to the US and it's because this area of responsibility encompasses about half of the Earth's surface.

00;02;08;17 - 00;02;35;22

Unknown

00;02;35;24 - 00;02;57;20

Unknown

And speaking personally, as somebody who's lived in Indonesia for a few years, I can attest that there's, a significant economic disparity across the region. A number of smaller island nations that are kind of mixed throughout. And so, yeah, excited to to talk about this. And we introduce our guests for today. So joining us, we've got a couple of pros in the field.

00;02;57;22 - 00;03;21;03

Unknown

They definitely know a bit about pushing boundaries. First we've got you know, Chad McCoy is the co-founder of Firestorm Labs, a 3D drone printing startup disrupting traditional manufacturing for unmanned aerial systems. Excited to expand on this within the episode. And alongside Chad, we have Jeff, right. Jeff has spent, a few decades in special ops.

00;03;21;06 - 00;03;46;03

Unknown

Brings a strategic military perspective along with frontline insights that connect tech application with combat realities. So together, you know, we're going to be exploring how new tech can solve all problems. And some real world examples on how progressive tech startups can kind of push those boundaries literally to the edge. For critical military missions. So, Chad, Jeff, thanks for joining us on the pod.

00;03;46;06 - 00;04;05;29

Unknown

Thanks, sir. Yeah. Happy to be here, Matt. Thanks. Good stuff. I for we get into the weeds, we're going to kick things off with a fun segment called Pick Me Up. Here's what we all kind of go around the room. Spitball a few complimentary parents. Rob, I'm going to, you know, put the mic on. You go ahead and lead us off with, your pairing for the day.

00;04;06;01 - 00;04;26;04

Unknown

So we were talking about, you know, living in Savannah. So I had I had to give a little preview to the Savannah bananas, Savannah bananas and carnival baseball. Dude, I was there, a few months ago, was ready to go to the game and it got canceled. Oh, yeah. Everybody had their gear on and everything.

00;04;26;06 - 00;04;42;13

Unknown

That's why they're so competitive now. Like to get tickets. Yeah, it's honestly it's spread pretty pretty, you know, pretty wide across the country. But even my kids here in Hawaii know about them. They, I pray that they see clips of them on the internet and stuff. My my wife, she's on Instagram is, is on my son's where, like, a list.

00;04;42;20 - 00;05;11;00

Unknown

Yeah. It's pretty it's pretty awesome how they've kind of taken us there. So that like to be here, aren't they? Yeah. You have to get them on the secondary market. Yeah. Wow. Crazy. Yeah. Those were like the the original. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's a good connection. Yeah. Good stuff. You're you're pairing can't be zeros and ones. Okay. I'm just going to sit here and spit binary for 30 minutes.

00;05;11;00 - 00;05;31;24

Unknown

And then you got to figure it out. You got to think of another period though. I'll go the other poll. I'll jump in real quick and I'll pass it over. Over to you, Jeff. I'm going to go with, toddler tantrums and some Jedi mind tricks. So folks out there who have toddlers, you know, you know this.

00;05;31;24 - 00;05;49;19

Unknown

You hit that phase. If it's two, if it's three, if it's four, where they they start to realize that there are a whole person and they, they have autonomy. And so any attempt at taking away some of that autonomy, it's usually met with, you know, a tantrum or screaming. No, or hitting or biting or you name it.

00;05;49;19 - 00;06;06;01

Unknown

And so this is our first kid. She's she's about two and a half, and we're kind of learning as we go, but we, we picked up on, you know, a little bit of a hack. So Alice is her name. And whenever she's kind of being, you know, her best defiant toddler self, we we never ask her to do something.

00;06;06;01 - 00;06;27;25

Unknown

Instead, we kind of ask her, you know, if she's old enough to do something or if she's strong enough to do something. She's smart enough to do something. Never, never. Just, you know, telling her, like, to go do something. And, you know, she's desperate to tell us that she's strong enough to to put her toys away or kind enough to share her snack or smart enough to brush your teeth.

00;06;27;26 - 00;06;47;05

Unknown

So I'm looking at random love and logic, then. Yeah, I mean, we we kind of figured a little something out now that could change at any point. But for now, we're kind of holding on to this little Jedi mind trick. So cool. That'll that'll be my, my, my my little pairing for today is, is toddler tantrums. And these these are my tricks.

00;06;47;08 - 00;07;11;12

Unknown

You guys have kids? You guys that got, Yeah, I've got a I've got a five year old girl, after having to, boys before her that had almost nothing like toddler tantrums. They were fairly, you know, rational and easy to deal with. And Freya, for whatever reason, didn't have any kind of toddler tantrums. But now that she's five, about to be six, she's just realized, you know what?

00;07;11;12 - 00;07;39;14

Unknown

Compliance is optional. I don't really have to do this. And in the negotiation of life, the the banner is whatever I say it is. And no, I'm not going to do that. And so what I'm finding with her is that a complete non-sequitur can take her from whatever, you know, direction she's going. All I have to do is pretend like it's not even happening and just, like, change the scene to something emotionally and logically unconnected with what was upsetting her, and she just leaves.

00;07;39;14 - 00;07;59;18

Unknown

Oh, the past is in the past, like all of 10s ago and then goes in the new direction. Yeah, the negotiations get next level with parenting, and it's pretty. It's pretty wild to see, yeah. The level you get on with with, but with kids. And if we can stay completely separated from it and just look at it as a developmental psychology experiment, it'd be fascinating.

00;07;59;18 - 00;08;16;18

Unknown

But the problem is that it's the most frustrating thing in the world is your kid, your genes, your house more, you know, 7:00 at night when you're tired and you get to take yourself out of the equation to be the psychologist and the parent. And it's it's right. I don't think I got an A on that test. So it's hard.

00;08;16;20 - 00;08;34;14

Unknown

Yeah. So they can start paying rent. You're going to listen to the rules of the house. Cool. All right. Let's let's pass over just about yourself. Quick quick intro and your parent. Yeah. So Jeff. Right. As of a couple of weeks ago, I was an active duty, special operator at Special Operations Command Pacific.

00;08;34;16 - 00;09;09;27

Unknown

I'm now transitioning out. I've got my own startup that I'm, getting into the space with, and, and my pairing we're going to talk about is trail runs with dogs. So I love running. I suck at it. I have to work very hard to be mediocre, but it's just something that I enjoy a lot. But when I add my dogs to it, especially through the woods, just evokes something ancient, and we get into this rhythm where I kind of lose track of time and it feels whole, it feels natural, and it's really nothing else that I'd rather be doing is the combination of those two things.

00;09;09;29 - 00;09;34;22

Unknown

I dig that kind of dogs you have. Right now I've got a three year old, Labrador, and she's a great runner. After the first mile, when she realizes that not everything has to be sniffed, and then she falls into a groove, and we're good at after that. But throughout most of my 20s and 30s, getting ready to go to selections and in between deployments and whatnot, I had a German Shepherd Malamute mix and an Australian Shepherd.

00;09;34;24 - 00;09;55;11

Unknown

I'd take them out to the woods, whatever training areas it would be, they would never need leashes, and they'd just run right with me the entire time until they smell something. Look up at me. I'm like, hey, boss, can we go check that out? Yeah. Go scout. And they'd be gone for ten, 20 minutes. And I would love at some point to be able to know what adventures they went on to just be running around in the woods, living their best life.

00;09;55;11 - 00;10;16;22

Unknown

And that check back in filthy. Probably having gotten a scrap with whatever animal it was. And, it's just kind of the way that life should be, you know, of things. Yeah. If you're like Loki, Maximus or Gladiator Mary. Right. With the dog, like, oh, I'm working on the. I'm working on the beard now, is this, this iteration of the beard is a little bit more salt and pepper.

00;10;16;22 - 00;10;36;29

Unknown

I mean, don't know, man. Like, I thought I was going to have a little bit longer with salt and pepper, but, there's not a lot of a lot of pepper left these days. Mine was brown a couple of years ago. Now it's, almost fully white. So, Yeah, I, I dig that, I got a Swiss mountain dog and nothing better than getting getting out on the trail with the dog man.

00;10;36;29 - 00;10;55;03

Unknown

They they just have that especially, you know, a lab. And that's a perfect kind of. And, you know, obviously the German Shepherd and the Aussie. Cool. All right. Well, thanks for joining us, Chad. How about yourself quick. And Joe and your parent. Yeah. So, yeah, I also, you know, Jeff and I would have been teammates in a former life.

00;10;55;06 - 00;11;17;26

Unknown

I was a little bit, we were separated by some geography and some time, I retired in 21. I did 23 years, and and so off as a pet rescue man, I actually was stationed out there and just, Or I was in Okinawa for a while, and, did some other, you know, tours back through the sock pack stuff in a in a different life.

00;11;17;28 - 00;11;37;00

Unknown

I find myself the other fence, you know, the other side of the fence of DoD and, and industry, obviously. But, you know, that's that's a formative. You know, kind of piece of my life and, allows me to, you know, it doesn't give me authority to speak on the things that I talk about, but it allows me to be, you know, insightful and creative with product.

00;11;37;00 - 00;11;58;11

Unknown

And, it's it's given us a competitive advantage as a business. I know that for a fact. I know that we can outpace other businesses because, the institutional knowledge we have from inside the fence and outside the fence. And so, I feel strongly about that. You know, to me, in a nutshell, you can look at my background online, but, you know, my period is, is midlife crisis.

00;11;58;11 - 00;12;20;00

Unknown

And, and when you go to, you know, big cities, you get to see that in action to go to Tampa and, that's a, you know, something my son I love to see is, he's 15. We love watching supercars, you know, drive by. And, a lot of you in Hawaii. But, you know, any big city man, I love seeing the guy who's, you know, he's got the chest hair pop and gold goatee.

00;12;20;00 - 00;12;43;06

Unknown

Just living his best life. I'm not quite there yet, but, but I do have an old 80s Porsche in the garage, and that's my midlife crisis car. So, when it starts, I'm very happy. Sweet. All you're missing is the, the change of the chest hair, bro. We can grow it out. Yeah, I know what we're going to get for your for your, just, I know, headshot.

00;12;43;06 - 00;13;09;02

Unknown

We're going with for your, Yeah, for your cover of the pod. It's like, Yeah. Top down shades on a little chain. That sounds so good. And that's like, the is the Corvette, man. That's like the, you know, the car. It's a for all of success of over. That's awesome. Good good good round I think everybody had a nice diversity and we didn't divert into traditional like food or drink pairings.

00;13;09;02 - 00;13;29;15

Unknown

It's usually like the, if cave into that as the, as the the comfort comfort pairing but enjoyed this round enjoyed getting to know everybody a little bit more and let's, let's dive into the, the core of the episode. So, you know, as I mentioned, we're we're going to be talk a little bit about logistical challenges for these tech start ups supporting defense customers.

00;13;29;15 - 00;13;49;06

Unknown

And for this episode we're going to hone in on future conflict areas like Intel Paycom. Along with discussion, we'll talk more in depth around tech integration at the edge. And if we have the time, I want to bleed into some some scaling strategies that revolve around open architectures for long term defense tech resilience. So let's jump in.

00;13;49;06 - 00;14;09;11

Unknown

I want to start with you, Jeff. And defining the problem, because something that stood out to me during our discovery kind of banter was that you felt it was important to discuss the narrative of war in the Pacific region and its connection to the challenges that we face during World War two. So maybe you can start with expanding on that and then share.

00;14;09;17 - 00;14;25;28

Unknown

We'll get to your perspective on, you know, firestorms approach to these challenges. Yeah, totally. This is 100% where you need to start. And keeping the audience in mind that the what's in it for me from the defense tech startup is first and foremost, how do you make money? And so I think this is a function of two things.

00;14;25;28 - 00;14;45;04

Unknown

You got to focus on what actually works in the real world, what wins wars. Because what's the point of making money if the nation loses and our way of life and our economy collapses and whatnot? So that's the, the, the the same. Non that's the, the bottom line thing that we can't not do is win. Unfortunately, that's not always connected with what makes money.

00;14;45;06 - 00;15;27;17

Unknown

And the reason why is the gap between what I call the monomyth and the real world, to roll the tape back a little bit when you were introducing into Paycom, I was thinking that I'd love to explain for a second the nature of what a DCC is, the geographic combatant command. It's underappreciated until you come out to one of these staffs, the degree of separation between the services whose responsibility is to organize, train and equip, buy stuff, create the formation, etc. and the problem solving staff out here, what we have is a drop down menu, like a literal, like you click a button and there's a bunch of names of units and types

00;15;27;17 - 00;15;46;20

Unknown

of equipment that you can request from the services to come out here and solve problems for you. And the service's job is to take their best guess at which one of these things would be useful to a guy like me out here in an opaque, to solve problems with into force, generate those things us out here and into paycom.

00;15;46;20 - 00;16;08;00

Unknown

We don't have money, we don't have a checkbook. We don't have the ability to create a program of record to buy hardware, to say, I want the information to look like this. Instead of that. We have mechanisms to inform that process, but all we can do is make requests. We can create what's, you know, a capital R requirement that tells the services, hey, I need you to build this.

00;16;08;03 - 00;16;27;29

Unknown

We can inform the mission, generation in the special operations side, especially to say, here's the mission guidance letter as you're creating a Seal platoon for Indo paycom. Here's what they need to be able to do. But, man, these are not direct levers that we have. So as the defense tech folks are thinking, how do I make money in the Indo-Pacific?

00;16;28;01 - 00;16;54;10

Unknown

You got to realize that when you talk to the guys, we're solving problems like me. My job out here has been for the past couple of years, to look at robotics and autonomy and to figure out how those things can be applied against, you know, paycom challenges. I don't have a checkbook. You can come to me and I can give you ideas, but then you have to then build that and then sell it to the people who have the checkbook at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base at, you know, at Naval Yard in the in the Potomac, stuff like that.

00;16;54;10 - 00;17;16;03

Unknown

That's where the people with the, the dollars are. And in fact, this hackathon that we're trying to put together in Hawaii, the first day of it, we're trying to have the program managers, people who understand the acquisitions process, come out and give like a one day workshop for all these awesome tech companies that have the right tech and the right ideas, but don't know how to translate those into actual dollars.

00;17;16;06 - 00;17;33;24

Unknown

So there's there's kind of a quick overview. I will turn the microphone back over to Chad real quick and then and then get into the monomyth, like, what's the difference between when people say in a Warren Pacific, what that means? But first, Chad, thoughts on that, on the difference between acquisitions programs and, you know, making money as a startup.

00;17;33;26 - 00;17;50;14

Unknown

Yeah. I mean, we've talked about this ad nauseam. I mean, this is a hard problem, especially when you have to connect dots for the government. And, I wasn't used to this. And one, if you don't know the network, it's it's a lost cause. You have to have an inside champion. If you don't, you're dead in the water.

00;17;50;16 - 00;18;07;07

Unknown

And, you know, even if when, you go to a conference or an expo and you hear the, you know, the CGS get up on stage and tell everybody what they want, when you bring them what they want, they're still confused. And how to get it or maintain it or take ownership of it. And so it's a multi-level problem.

00;18;07;07 - 00;18;24;14

Unknown

00;18;24;14 - 00;18;45;16

Unknown

And defense tech is really is damn hard. Yeah, we talk about a lot about that on the pod because, you know, dual use gets thrown around a lot. It's a real buzzy, really. You know, appealing from a founder's perspective. But the fact of the matter is, it can, you know, it can oftentimes be a trap. It was we got a future guest coming on.

00;18;45;16 - 00;19;04;12

Unknown

I wrote a blog about this, and, you know, if you're not standing up, from the early stages with, with the intent and understanding of what goes on into the acquisition process, you know, you're going to be spending a lot of time, a lot of burn. And, you know, if that's your livelihood, you know, from a startup founder, I mean, yeah, good, good luck to you.

00;19;04;12 - 00;19;26;26

Unknown

Because, it's not easy to keep that cash flow rolling if you're a product company. Let me let me say something to this piece though, too, because just getting ready to go into the cycle, raising money for his his business, right. And when we first, when we first raising, it's like, hey, are you guys dual use? And I want to vomit in my mouth when I heard it because I'm like, hey, dumb ass, everything is door use.

00;19;26;26 - 00;19;44;03

Unknown

Unless it's a jazz arm, right? A jazz, it's not dual use. And but if it's a us, use your creativity, man. Like does it need to be dual use? And if we're talking defense, why do we care if it's still use. And so you know I take issue with that whole, you know, kind of mindset. And it's it's extremely frustrating.

00;19;44;06 - 00;20;04;25

Unknown

And I think that almost it should be a selection criteria for you, Jeff. As you as you vet your, your investors, I mean, you know, it's such a hot button thing to say. I get why that would be of interest to investors, because the defense market is fickle, especially if you don't understand the nuances of how dollars actually flow.

00;20;04;27 - 00;20;25;13

Unknown

In our sidebar, before we started recording, we were talking about the people we know who are actually writing the laws and cutting the checks. That type of insider knowledge is really required if you're going to thrive in this space. I've seen really good technology not match up with money, and I've seen the opposite happened to where just crap ideas with not, you know, baked anything get dollars because I understood how it works.

00;20;25;16 - 00;20;59;26

Unknown

The key thing that I'd ask kind of listeners to take into account, if they're not familiar with how they act, was just process work, is that this is not the free market. This is not the way where a person who has an idea has a credit card that they can swipe and buy a thing that they need. We have this convoluted, like we've almost modeled it after our adversaries in the non-free world, where we've put in layers of bureaucrats and processes between the problem owner again, me out here in into paycom designing the operations against adversaries, and all the hoops I have to jump through to get the dollars and the physical things to

00;20;59;26 - 00;21;14;24

Unknown

go do it. You got to understand that or you're not going to succeed in the defense market. I think a lot of the VCs have been burned by this because they say, oh, this is a great idea. The warfighter clearly needs it. Admiral so-and-so said. So when he was on stage, they're like, hey, well, does Admiral So-and-so have a checkbook?

00;21;14;27 - 00;21;35;10

Unknown

See a Po? Now, what you really need is the major, the lieutenant commander, who's sitting there in a windowless cubicle, who actually writes the charts and runs the program. Yeah. And until you have someone on your team who understands that stuff, you're dead in the water. I'm embarrassed a little bit that I've gotten so deep into that side of X, I realized this is in military.

00;21;35;10 - 00;22;06;25

Unknown

We're called to share. This is the hard part of the battle, is getting the dollars. If we want to succeed as defense companies, you have to understand how a bill becomes a law. You know that old cartoon from the 80s, the story of how a appropriated dollar becomes a thing in the hands of the warfighter. And you need to be able to trace it from whose hands are on the keyboard, appropriating what dollar for what program, what color of money, what resource sponsor, what acquisitions office, what service, what fourth generation element?

00;22;06;25 - 00;22;24;13

Unknown

What how is that requested that a global force management system to actually get out the thing? It's a convoluted thing, and it probably all needs to be burned to the ground and rebuilt in a smarter way. And yet this is the world that we live in. And if you're going to actually make real dollars and make a real impact, you've got to master it or nothing else matters.

00;22;24;15 - 00;22;43;20

Unknown

Robert, one last thing on that on the dual use from you and then I and then we'll get back to that. The, the monomyth. Yeah. So I was just going to cover is that if you will make it an imperative rather than a thesis, a good thesis because you're citing areas of various like international markets where it has made people more successful at the fact that China has manufactured cell phones for 20 years.

00;22;43;20 - 00;23;06;07

Unknown

They have like, ridiculous like I want sensors and camera manufacturing and all that stuff that ends up transferring from their commercial sector to their design sector. And they've they've put you right, and then you're totally right. Like, there's a lot of times where there are things that are dual use and they're more commercially positioned, and there's just too much friction for like them to be adopted for, like this very specific, sensitive defense space.

00;23;06;09 - 00;23;24;28

Unknown

But then again, like, there's a ton of risk in the Defense Department where you're kind of beholden to these stakeholders that there are three years. So you can be like one page of the program office, and you, Colonel, comes through and you want to recreate the wheel with new partners and, and new touchpoints. I mean, it's all that's that's a certainty.

00;23;25;01 - 00;23;49;22

Unknown

Yeah. It's all chaos. And it's like you can only control so much, just like any, any type of startup situation that you like the private market. And I think the more people, bet on like, human nature and like, personify their stakeholders, personify their investors, you know, really model their environments and then model the warfighting domain flexible. And yeah, that is I think that's a really good way to reduce risk when it's when you're on your serve.

00;23;49;24 - 00;24;10;00

Unknown

My team. Let's let's good point. Rob I, I, I, I feel like, yeah, we could riff a whole episode around this topic alone, but, just getting back to the. Yeah, the main point here with operating in, you know, the Indo-Pacific area. So talk to me a little bit about that monomyth concept you're talking through. Yeah.

00;24;10;00 - 00;24;31;04

Unknown

So we'll, we'll we'll start with a little bit of neurology is that, you know, neural grouping and neural weights. When when you think a certain pattern of thoughts, it becomes physically encoded in your brain, like those neurons are more likely to fire in the synaptic patterns that resulted in that thought. We have so many decades of thinking about World War Two that that is our monomyth.

00;24;31;05 - 00;24;52;09

Unknown

We love that war. It makes so much sense for us. It's linear. It's like this true good and evil story starts in one physical geographic place and ends in another. It's like American football as opposed to soccer. Like we love football because you don't go backwards. What do you talk about now? You go for the entire time and then like you go forward, you stop and that's not the way that the world works normally.

00;24;52;09 - 00;25;14;29

Unknown

But that's how World War two. So we've spent, you know, six decades, or more now, LARPing as our grandparents getting ready for World War three. Hell, we we have a name for a war before it even happened. And remember that World War two came after the World War. My favorite monument in DC is the monument to what we now call World War One.

00;25;15;01 - 00;25;33;04

Unknown

But you read the inscriptions on that kind of abandoned monument, and it says the Great War, the war to end all wars. And then we were surprised when it happened again, worse. And so after that war, we said we got to be ready for the next one. And we thought of it in terms of a sequel, as if there's going to be an iteration that comes next.

00;25;33;04 - 00;25;53;02

Unknown

But we have to do the same thing again. Man, this thought process is the beating heart of the dysfunction out here is that we are thinking we have to do the same war the same way, where we start behind our, you know, our 20 and our and our and our our part of the territory and our football field.

00;25;53;05 - 00;26;14;06

Unknown

And we get our forces ready and we Tickford which is, you know, getting all the forces flowing together. And then we start pushing west. And so when we talk about logistics in the Indo-Pacific, that's when everybody's thinking they're automatically loading a set of assumptions that aren't necessarily real. And let's check with Ukraine real quick to see how that set of assumptions worked for the war that happened.

00;26;14;09 - 00;26;40;03

Unknown

00;26;40;06 - 00;27;02;19

Unknown

How did the U.S. military perform all those decades of investment? We we assumed that war in Europe was going to look like acts. None of that was true. What actually happened was that instead of uniformed U.S. service members, fighting against, thermonuclear armed enemies, uniformed service members, which is our assumption for a long time. As it turns out, that's not a thing.

00;27;02;21 - 00;27;22;18

Unknown

Proxy wars are the thing, and that we don't fight directly. Other nations we're in mutually assured destruction is part of the calculus, and we want to nip around the edges. The problem is that this monomyth and back to the Pacific year, the monomyth is so deep that we don't want to take focus away from preparing for the big one from World War three.

00;27;22;21 - 00;27;52;26

Unknown

I don't worry about Vietnam. Don't worry about, you know, the little, terror wars in the Philippines. Don't worry about a small thing, an invasion of Taiwan. If we're not involved, like it's our carriers, our armored combat divisions, our mess, our submarines, our bombers. And if it's not that kind of like, not our job, that's the motto. So as we're talking about logistics, I would challenge the assumption that war in the Pacific involves United States military members.

00;27;52;29 - 00;28;24;21

Unknown

That's the big thing. Yeah. I think, that's a that's a great take. And I mean, I'd have to I just agree with. Yeah, the, how you're comparing this to like, the, you know, the, the football analogy. It makes a lot of sense to me because, you know, Americans are obsessed with it. But I want to bring it back to the, to the logistical piece because when we talk about, you know, defense tech and, you know, getting through some of those, challenges to get it into the hands of the end users.

00;28;24;23 - 00;28;44;06

Unknown

You know, it's not an easy task, Chad. I mean, you're going to be able to speak to this, you know, firsthand. Talk to me about, you know, from a logistics perspective, what you at firestorm are doing to try your best to troubleshoot these areas. Yeah. Well, give you a little context of, what we have as a business and tell you how we think it fits within the operational landscape.

00;28;44;06 - 00;29;04;19

Unknown

So, you know, first of all, when we got together as a founding team, the initial design that we were building was 3D printing and, you know, being 3D printers and the most effective to scale, you know, like injection molding is way faster and cheaper, but when a product is constantly evolving and we call it future proofed, 3D printing is really effective at doing that.

00;29;04;22 - 00;29;27;23

Unknown

And, there's a lot of organizations within the military now, like the Army's transformation and contact, you know, efforts of a they want to be able to change things and design on the, on the, on the fly in other pieces like digital engineering. Right. So when we talk about digital design or, you know, being able to modify things, in that space and then pushing files forward to, to design, that's really important to for the military.

00;29;27;28 - 00;29;45;27

Unknown

Well, at least they're learning that in small pockets. Military knew that, especially in the labs. But so we had a platform those 3D printed and so my brain went to logistics. Right. Because, I lived in, you know, secluded places that didn't have big support sites like MREs overseas. And you had to be creative about how you got logistics in.

00;29;46;00 - 00;30;07;28

Unknown

And something that was one aircraft was going to land at a remote spot isn't up a bunch of stuff off of. And you had to live, you know, for however long you had. And so logistics is near and dear to most guys that have actually been in combat is hard. And so, my my first question to Ian was, you know, our CTO said, man, can we containerize this manufacturing capability like, is it, is it just a printer or what's the manufacturing line look like?

00;30;08;01 - 00;30;27;26

Unknown

And we started speaking it out and we realized this is that, with a very small footprint, we can create a manufacturing workflow. And so, in that we had a containerized system we call Excel. And, Excel, blew people's minds in the beginning because people couldn't grasp that. There's you know, they're used to the bias, what 3D printing was in the past.

00;30;27;26 - 00;30;45;18

Unknown

Ray was building discharge gears and, you know, in ornaments or plaques. And it was never supposed to be this resilient aircraft. You could land with hundreds of hours. And so, we fought this stigma. I mean, we still fight the stigma. That's I mean, it's not that we have won it yet. But it started so. Com and you'd have focused.

00;30;45;18 - 00;31;06;21

Unknown

So, they just could not wrap their brains around it. And, it took us a long time to find the right champions across the DoD. And I'll be honest with you, that, it really hasn't been soft as an early adopter. It's been the services, and the services are starting to get it. And because the services are realizing that Qantas logistics is going to be the hardest problem and there's no one size fits all solution.

00;31;06;24 - 00;31;29;26

Unknown

And I'm not implying that we can solve all those problems. But we had this drone factory that just happens to be able to prints everything, you know, and it drones and everything else. Right. And so, and I'll just give you an example, the, the Mk nine community down at canon Air Force Base and the so can nines are starting to see the value in something like this to prevent, you know, parts that break.

00;31;29;28 - 00;31;45;20

Unknown

And do we need to have, you know, especially skills to use these systems? Well, not if we have a, you know, a menu of options of things that are already carried out and put in the system. It's just hit play and go, right. And it you know, I'm oversimplifying the process, but, what we can do for the big Navy.

00;31;45;20 - 00;32;10;28

Unknown

So great help Navy, you know, really supporting those ships and not supporting the ships of drones supporting with replacement parts. Is really key to the next fight. And the reason it's pertinent to the gesture is that it's the steering, a distance that we used to describe in Africom. Pay comes ten times worse. Because we don't have ground forces that can go from point A to point B, and the assumption is, is that supply chains are going to be cut off.

00;32;11;01 - 00;32;32;05

Unknown

And so if you have XL container containerized production on Island and the lights go out, I guess we're still producing drones at the edge, right? And so, that should be damn scary. Your enemies, that they can't stop us. And so that's what the thesis was, and that's what we built out. And that's what we're doing currently.

00;32;32;07 - 00;32;51;07

Unknown

Yeah. One are these containers already deployed? I think I saw one on socials, like on a trailer. Hitch is going to say, because those go on a Capitol Hill that day. So we put it out there. Yeah. It's out. It's and run right now. And so the goal is, is that, you know, in 48 hours you have a functional drone can go fly.

00;32;51;09 - 00;33;18;07

Unknown

And we're not talking about quadcopters, we're talking about group two systems. They're traveling 150 miles, and striking targets with precision. And so, this is very different than, you know, person quadcopters. This is, you know, it's not a strategic effect until you use it that way. But I think it it, it it takes a step out of the tactical and goes into the operational, and the value of having things already in place can't be overstated.

00;33;18;10 - 00;33;44;22

Unknown

The idea of the adversary giving us time to get all of our logistics ready, like, oh, guys, don't start. We're not ready. Time out. You can't can't snap the ball early. That's not a thing. The the idea of us having the ability to flow things westward is probably not a thing until very late in a traditional conflict that's normally conceptualized anything that's already in play inside the first island chain, even the second island chain, that is something that we can rely on.

00;33;44;22 - 00;34;17;00

Unknown

You can't count on things being tip fitted, i.e. flowed from the continental United States and anything like a strategically relevant timeline. If it's already there, it can be used. One mutation of this further is that we always conceptualize this as it's a uniformed American service member doing it. What if we're pulled out? What if the decision is made the same that was made in Ukraine, where it's rifles blown, everybody out of the pool, and we're watching this thing happen from, you know, the Centurion Lounge at whatever international airport that it's going down.

00;34;17;03 - 00;34;53;07

Unknown

The tools that we got in, the relationships we built with the partners and our ability to develop insurgent resistant forces if an area should fall or to but bolster the defense capability, whatever nation we're supporting Taiwan, Philippines, etc.. That is only possible if you've got the stuff in place. Excel. The reason I'm such a fan of this concept is that it gives you the ability to not only make stuff, but make stuff that is proven and it's not a STL file that you're downloading, and then hoping somebody can figure out how to integrate all the things.

00;34;53;09 - 00;35;15;27

Unknown

Big misconception I hear about building drones is I'm going to 3D print a drone, bro. You can 3D printed airframe and then all the other things that go into it is extensive. It is really hard to do what Ian and his team at firestorm have done is to design airframes that are designed for this additive manufacturing process, and to create XLS that not only 3D printed, but they're moving the pieces around.

00;35;15;27 - 00;35;31;18

Unknown

So minimal human involvement. So you've got the dream for all of us that grew up playing Command and Conquer and Red alert and all that stuff, where instead of having the factory on your corner of the map, the ultimate moves, you put the factory as close to the adversary as possible, so you're pumping stuff out right underneath this nose.

00;35;31;20 - 00;35;48;25

Unknown

That's what these guys have figured out. Yeah. And the only thing I'd add is that, you know what? I surmise the stats when I was in the Pentagon on Wednesday is that, you know, I use the, you know, the the visual for the commander. I was talking to you, and I said, we're not a company were taken up.

00;35;48;28 - 00;36;13;08

Unknown

And it resonated with him because he realized that we are gonna, we're taking this a completely operational approach to manufacturing and production. And the other thing is, these drones don't have to be a provocation. Our drones are multi-mission, and so they can start an asset, they can convert to an decoy or, you know, offensive source. And then you can racing repurpose that as a one way attack.

00;36;13;10 - 00;36;32;19

Unknown

And so what the DoD has never had is they've never had control of the product. And so my goal as a former operator is to give them the keys to the castle and say, I don't want to dictate your tactics, guys. Here's the tool. You create your tactics, and the tool supports you and and the price points cheaper than everything else.

00;36;32;19 - 00;36;57;18

Unknown

And so when you dump in the drink, you know, you're not worried that you're gonna lose your job over it. And so and then the other pieces were later on autonomy too. Right. And and this this is a policy issue. This isn't something we're going to solve in this podcast. But, I believe strongly that and that's, you know, 3 to 5 years, policy will change and these systems will be fully autonomous and they'll be making hopefully good decisions with inputs from humans.

00;36;57;21 - 00;37;17;05

Unknown

But we have to, you know, kind of release them. And this is the wild. And, that will be an inflection point for combat. And to just point about you know, US troops boots on the ground, I think. Yes, but I think the floor is going to get a little bit further back. And, and I think that's a good thing for preservation of, risk to mission risk of force.

00;37;17;07 - 00;37;45;04

Unknown

And I think that hopefully we'll lose less U.S lives in conflict. So one other thing to note about the the Excel's ability to make things under the enemy's nose. If you're familiar with how Chinese military thinking goes, they are a very science based modeling and simulation based culture. They don't embrace, you know, the Vuca mentality that we do where uncertainty, fog of war, friction they try to make everything is known as possible.

00;37;45;06 - 00;38;06;28

Unknown

If they can't tell their bosses how many drones are in a certain location, what troop strengths are, they're much less inclined to take action. Because the answer is, I don't know. Create a network of, Excel and Excel like things where how many drones are there today? You don't know? Hell, we don't know because we don't know what our guys at the platoon, the company level, are doing necessarily.

00;38;07;05 - 00;38;31;07

Unknown

They could have printed out an extra 100. They could have not. And that uncertainty to change a constant into a variable. I can't tell you how much that messes with the adversary strategic calculation. This induces friction and fog that is incompatible with the certainty the PLA kind of military thinking requires to take action. So in terms of deterrent value, x number of drones is less valuable.

00;38;31;09 - 00;38;50;14

Unknown

00;38;50;16 - 00;39;16;26

Unknown

00;39;16;28 - 00;39;34;03

Unknown

And so China is a million drones, right? And so even if we get to 10,000, we're still short. And so I you know, somebody asked me this morning, they said, you know, are you worried about the other competitors in the space that are much bigger and better funded than you? And I said no, because I think there's a plenty of space for all of us to coexist.

00;39;34;05 - 00;39;52;00

Unknown

And I think that we can be compliment free in our the way we produce drones to produce their parts. And then eventually we're going to be printing their drones for them. And so, I look at it's kind of being, you know, the cool kid, we got the van, we can take it away to the party. And so and we're doing the same thing with integrations, right?

00;39;52;07 - 00;40;13;07

Unknown

00;40;13;10 - 00;40;49;20

Unknown

That, that the number I think is public now. And the fact that switchblade 600 is one of the things picked, the fact that that weapon was picked as part as a drone is important to note that a drone is not a drone, is not a drone a thing that requires a single human to pilot it, and a patent communications link between the operator and the weapon is not the same as a one way autonomous attack drone that can do some sort of logic at the edge, but for for the purposes of listeners, the when we say a drone, we need to really tease out what that means and to make sure that we

00;40;49;20 - 00;41;12;11

Unknown

have what, what Ben Coleman is calling weapon warfare fit product market fits how you get something bought. Weapon warfare fit is how you make something that is actually useful in combat. You do not assume that because it is a drone that it is useful. Anybody who's familiar with what is happening with us made stuff in Ukraine knows we got a little bit of a stain on our reputation.

00;41;12;14 - 00;41;38;01

Unknown

American Made is a byword for overpriced and nonperformance in Ukraine in most contexts. That's when we talk about enough, is that we are saying that just because it's a drone and it passed our standards, that it's useful. Man, I just got out of a planning meeting. I don't want to go into details, here at the UN class level, but we we were talking about an exercise, and I was insisting that we incorporate electronic warfare into that.

00;41;38;01 - 00;41;52;09

Unknown

Say, hey, look, all our adversaries have X, Y, and Z. We need to be able to survive in these environments. And what I was told by a retired oh six who's in charge of the exercise is that, well, if we put electronic warfare into this, then all of our stuff will fail. And if it fails, we don't learn anything.

00;41;52;13 - 00;42;11;10

Unknown

And so we need to make sure that we learn from this exercise like, dude, if your stuff fails, that's a lesson to be learned. And yet that's the standard that we're testing to avoid. Managers don't benefit if you expose their their gear to things that make it fail. But we need to change our culture such that the first time it's tested isn't in combat.

00;42;11;13 - 00;42;28;15

Unknown

But let me add to the culture change thing. You know, when we talk about the lessons learned from Ukraine, there's a lot to learn. But they're not. It's not apples to apples. When you talk about theaters. And what I see in the DoD is that they're saying, well, let's just do what they did and we'll do it at the US scale, and then we'll win the next war.

00;42;28;18 - 00;42;45;15

Unknown

And it's almost you just want to punch yourself in the face. It's not apples to apples. Right. And if we were to take one tempest and fly it towards a bunch of geos that are watching exercise, let's say, you know, in Michigan, what are they going to do about it? There's no countermeasures. They can do to stop that thing.

00;42;45;21 - 00;42;59;14

Unknown

And if it came down and had a terminal, you know, had an attack angle at them, they're going to shit their pants, because when that thing pulls off, they're going to realize they're completely vulnerable and they don't have a countermeasure for it. And so this is the new reality of combat. I didn't face it during my time in service.

00;42;59;14 - 00;43;16;27

Unknown

00;43;17;04 - 00;43;35;09

Unknown

When I was in in that auditorium, the guy sitting next to me was a ranger company commander who just gotten back from Syria. And he's like, no B.S.. I lost two mortar men, from ISIS dropping grenades. And as of today, the US is barely able to do what ISIS was doing. Almost a decade ago. We are miles behind.

00;43;35;09 - 00;43;58;03

Unknown

We have lost air superiority. That's what my startup is trying to do. And I want to take attention away from Chad and yours. But in some we're building fighter drones to win back air superiority at low altitudes. Our manned air breathing fighters are too fast, too exquisite, and too few to be able to do it. What we need is drones that can sense dogfight and shoot down other drones.

00;43;58;03 - 00;44;17;01

Unknown

And that is precisely what splash is building at sick. Yeah, I'm excited to, you know, hear more about that when you guys come out of stealth. And, I'll have you back on for a future episode. Jeff. He just did it in. Yes. Yeah, I guess it is. Yeah, it's on the patents yesterday, so I'm going to to start talking about it.

00;44;17;04 - 00;44;33;24

Unknown

Well, we've got a month for this comes out but yeah. Well I'll, I'll make sure you're good with that. Great question. Really great about the supply chain. So I think it's a good detail that a lot of people overlook. Like I'm not a 3D printing person totally in the software domain, but I do a lot of problem solving with warfighters, like in the trenches.

00;44;33;26 - 00;45;02;12

Unknown

And I think something that people overlook about the 3D printing piece is the resiliency of like maintaining, the materials. Right? Like I look at it like just sitting out, it's like straight up minecraft yet, you know, I assume their storage costs like from, like a, degree in materials perspective, if you have, like, totally production ready subcomponents, like, they're going to degrade a lot faster than, like, you know, a lot of good that you could turn into something that's, like, really effective, right?

00;45;02;12 - 00;45;20;14

Unknown

And probably mischaracterizing it. But I mean, the cost savings is probably ridiculous. Your ability to store it in a diverse, array of environments is really cool. Very nice stuff. I mean, it's insane. Like, the ROI is nuts. And like anything, I think that the true value is in the details and that kind of all rolls into the product.

00;45;20;14 - 00;45;36;15

Unknown

You know, you you've all of your buildings. Rob. You nailed it, man. And so here's the disparity that I'll just lay out for you guys without saying anybody's name. It takes 5 to 6 weeks for them to build one bird, okay? That's why they're so far behind. And I just told you how long it takes us to build one.

00;45;36;17 - 00;45;50;27

Unknown

That's where we start. And then the price point or a third of their cost. And so you know, how do we do that? Are we just more creative than them? Like, no, I mean, they're big business. They know how to make money. Their margins are really good. They're the ones that drive in the cool sports car, not the air.

00;45;50;27 - 00;46;12;27

Unknown

Cool. But right now, as a business, we're trying to reduce, you know, our time from rent to flying. And we're doing that, through, just like you said, there are some components. There's some are assembled. Right. We're talking kitting the systems out. I don't want the solder doing, you know, putting servos into a wing. I want those things already pre-built.

00;46;12;29 - 00;46;33;28

Unknown

But when you talk about the economy of scale to ship those things stacked this way, you know, we're talking about shipping thousands of drones, right? And so this is what, people are having a hard time wrapping their heads around. And then to your point about materials, we're a non exquisite material. Jeff knows what it is. And, we did that intentionally so that we can make sure that we don't have any supply chain limitations.

00;46;34;00 - 00;46;54;07

Unknown

And if we're talking carbon fiber, man, carbon fiber, super strong, as you guys know. It's also super laborious, right, to build out, and a strength to weight ratio is excellent, man. And so there's a time and place for that. And maybe aircraft are half that have this. And so when we start looking at hybrids, this is worth going to get really fun and creative.

00;46;54;07 - 00;47;16;08

Unknown

Guys like Jeff, you know, are going to make a lot of money in the future because they see it that way. And so, yeah, I'm excited to be part of the solution. The fact that all of this is commercially off the shelf. And let's, let's bring this conversation back to logistics when you when you talk about resupply the monomyth answer is that resupply comes from Rosie the Riveter in Long Beach.

00;47;16;08 - 00;47;48;24

Unknown

And it gets on a ship and it goes west. Yeah. When I've been asked about the con ops where I'm planning to employ Firestar stuff in the Indo-Pacific, I go to Google Maps and I show the number of kilometers between, hey, if I'm defending this hill, I'm attacking this enemy force at this location. Here's Bob's Hobby shop off of the street where they sell all the parts that I'm talking about, the factory that makes the board and the chip is just down the road, man, like, I don't I'm not making stuff in Detroit and then having to ship it 14 time zones across the world.

00;47;48;24 - 00;48;10;00

Unknown

You know, I'm I'm making stuff inside the, the area where we're using it out of components that are sourced from raw materials inside this area. Yes, we have a globally connected economy, but Southeast Asia, where we're talking about all these things is where a lot of this happens to begin with. You're talking about semiconductors, we're talking about microelectronics.

00;48;10;02 - 00;48;30;10

Unknown

I mean, just looking around my workshop right now, like, oh, I'll pull my, project I was working on last night off the shelf here, like, every one of these components was made in Southeast Asia. The preponderance of it is made in Taiwan, Thailand, and a couple things in mainland China that I'm trying to get out of my supply system, that that's where all the stuff comes from to begin with.

00;48;30;10 - 00;48;59;20

Unknown

Like there is no shortage of that. The challenge when we talk about logistics, I think it comes down to it, is a supply chain issue. How do we make sure that it's the free world that makes this stuff and has it available in America? Is great friend short in Thailand, friend shared in Vietnam, in in Taiwan, maybe even better because then as a special operator, I have less of a logistical concern about getting my hands on it than if it had to come from.

00;48;59;22 - 00;49;27;20

Unknown

Yeah, just the other pieces like co-production. Right. So, you know, are you willing to do co-production through, you know, highly skilled technical workforce like you have in a lot of these countries? You know, we don't have a lock on, on this engineering talent. We have excellent engineers, obviously, but, we can do this overseas. And and the other piece is when we talk logistics or we talk about, you know, sovereignty and logistics, the reason that the European nations like what we're doing is because they want to slap their flag in the back of the bird, and we're all about it.

00;49;27;20 - 00;49;44;20

Unknown

Yeah. I mean, we don't need to have a firestorm U.S. logo on it. You want to make it in Norway? Let's do it. And when you give them the keys to the castle and you say, hey, you're not going to be, susceptible to a change in administration or policy. So they really like that. I would really like that about the small country.

00;49;44;23 - 00;50;00;04

Unknown

I'm like me, man. I don't want to have to be at the whims of your, your, you know, political parties. And so, you know, we're looking at what does that look like? How do we maintain quality control through the process? You know, because it's obviously our name. At the end of the day, they'll call the sky because, you know, there was an issue in production.

00;50;00;04 - 00;50;21;03

Unknown

That's a that's an issue. But, we're going to figure it out and we're going to test the waters with some key, you know, some key partners. And, you know, we're gonna get some hopefully some wins for us on this. And that gets to a little bit about what jobs are entailed in making an aircraft. When we say building a drone, everybody thinks of the guy with the soldering iron in his hand and actually assembling the thing.

00;50;21;05 - 00;50;42;18

Unknown

That's the very end of it, the designing, the computer aided design part of it, the aeronautical engineering, all of the testing, all the reps and sets that make it. So you have a formula that a relatively low skill dude right next to the Flot can be pumping out these things. All those jobs can and should and must be in American hands.

00;50;42;18 - 00;51;09;04

Unknown

So we have the intellectual property. We have control over anything that's sensitive, and we can export it where and when we want. The actual making of the thing that can be French, or especially the components where, you know, turning a couple of dollars worth of plastic into a servo, maybe that's not a thing that is critical for our economy, but doing the design to take an idea of a a defense concept, put that into metal, plastic and silicon that is an American thing.

00;51;09;04 - 00;51;27;01

Unknown

That's what we need to be protecting and making sure it stays, you know, and we will be 3D printing munitions in the future. I mean, it's possible. Yeah. At scale. Yeah. But the thing is, you can 3D print your frag packs and you can pack dimensions in the field, and, and that's what we've been talking about in Ukraine, right?

00;51;27;01 - 00;51;43;12

Unknown

It's like, how do we get more artillery shells to Ukraine? But if we could say, hey, I can print you now. Taylor. Fragmentation based on design, right? If Jeff comes to me, says, Chad, I need a punch hole for this kind of steel. Gotcha. Let's put it in the calculator and we pop out a new design, and then we print on the edge.

00;51;43;14 - 00;52;00;15

Unknown

We go test it in the field where we're already at. And then we put this thing live that's going to be again, this is these are, this is how combat is changing. And it's not hyperbole for me to say. And I said, Jeff, I think you would agree with this, is that this company can change warfare. And that's why I'm excited to come to work every day.

00;52;00;15 - 00;52;17;01

Unknown

Right. It's like I get to be a part of this, something that's really special. I'm doing more now in industry than I did in uniform. And I think I had a pretty good, you know, career in uniform. But this is way harder and it's more impactful on a strategic sense. Yeah, it's it's also I've never seen anything like a chat.

00;52;17;01 - 00;52;33;28

Unknown

I was super excited to, to get you, you know, interested in talking about this because I think, you know, this is a use case that, you know, folks in kind of wrap their head around, physically see some of the cool shit that you're building and having it out in production in the wild. And then, Jeff, you know, your perspective.

00;52;33;28 - 00;52;56;18

Unknown

I really love to tell you, you know, when you were talking about defining, you know, integration at the edge, how you broke that into. It's the physical proximity, but also, yeah, the degrees of separation from makers to operators because, you know, it's not just, you know, and that can all happen in parallel, man. Like my, my fever dream is you have an edge user defining what's hot that week.

00;52;56;20 - 00;53;15;20

Unknown

Tech dev cycles in Ukraine are not measured in months, much less palm cycles. It's literal week to week stuff. The the firestorm approach where we don't have one model, we have the ability to. And I say we as if I'm part of your company. I mean, like you guys, we have a.

00;53;15;22 - 00;53;35;21

Unknown

You have the ability to rapidly change stuff in response to what's happening on the front line. When you change X, the American engineer hears that and says, I need to change the CAD file from A to B, makes those changes and can email it, can send it back forward. Can you tell the story quickly how you did that for the demonstration in Rome?

00;53;35;24 - 00;53;55;10

Unknown

Yeah, guys. So usually integrations take 2 to 3 weeks and millions of dollars. Right. Rob, you want to change? You know, hardware is super expensive. Been in the military. Jeff knows this. I know this. And what we showed with er for Ari, the information Directorate, which I would say and I'll say this on record, I think is one of the most more forward leaning aspects of the lab.

00;53;55;13 - 00;54;15;01

Unknown

The things that they're doing to support Jeff's mission, really proud of what they're doing. They had a dissimilar kind of effect that they needed to add to our fuselage. It didn't fit. And so we basically changed the entire design of our aircraft in less than one day. And the part printed to run New York, attach the aircraft fluid.

00;54;15;04 - 00;54;39;00

Unknown

And that blew their minds because one, it didn't cost anything, you know, pennies on the dollar. But to that rapid cycle is what they should expect in the test community. And so that's why I think the excels in the wild are great. I think excels within the test environment are excellent as well. I look at Nellis as an opportunity to have a drone production facility that they say, hey, we want to we want to make a change and change it.

00;54;39;00 - 00;54;55;00

Unknown

We can either support you with our engineers or if you're smart enough to do yourself and you do it, and our goal is not to vendor lock the other piece. I'd add just for clarification, because people might be scared about this, is that, oh, firestorm is going to create a monopoly with their drones in their production. That is not our intent.

00;54;55;02 - 00;55;25;09

Unknown

Our intent is to print whatever within reason we can. And I think that includes, you know, even to up to group threes, you know, I will tell you which company I was at on Monday. But I was in Huntsville and I'm very interested in printing the systems they have, and scaling those with them. And so, we have big things on the horizon for 25 and 26, but we have to be really measured, and discerning on opportunities, or we'll, we'll trip on our own feet, as we go forward.

00;55;25;11 - 00;55;47;23

Unknown

So that pairing of the operators in Conus with the manufacturers downrange, as we're talking about putting stuff inside the first island chain or wherever it is, we can't forget that the stuff in the US has to be going on as well. We are going to need to adapt. We are going to need to make these changes to the circuit board or the code for the thing that's flying or the physical design.

00;55;48;00 - 00;56;05;14

Unknown

You can't do that at the edge, because the folks who are needed to do that are engineer types. We need to be ensconced in there, happy Silicon Valley lights, wherever they are. You're back in the US. You can you can make those trons of their product flow back without physically moving the thing. You couldn't do that in World War Two.

00;56;05;19 - 00;56;38;03

Unknown

00;56;38;05 - 00;57;04;16

Unknown

And if we'd had to wait for some General Dynamics contractor to show up with this rope bell. Yes, very top siders and is retired. Oh five hey, you know the guy that I'm talking about, man, it would be five years before he got something changed, but instead what we had was Lance Corporal Bernard's with his welder and Lieutenant so-and-so and see, Chief Warrant officer so and so they would make the solution that day and put it back into the fight.

00;57;04;19 - 00;57;21;04

Unknown

I'm seeing all these innovation cells, and that's good. We're getting in the right direction. The question is, how do we do this scale? How do we federate that information out? Open architecture is is the answer. I think we're getting short on time. But one of the questions you wanted to get into is the value of that.

00;57;21;07 - 00;57;45;03

Unknown

That that's it. If we have vendor locked proprietary solutions then we can't contribute in like a, you know, get lab kind of environment to these solutions. Then one thing that's learned in one area doesn't proliferate around everybody else. We need to look at this as a crowdsourced thing with a partnership between the people on the ground, be they industry or active duty or partner nation, where everybody comes to the solution and then propagates it out.

00;57;45;05 - 00;58;03;12

Unknown

Jeff, Sally said, I don't want to be kind of overlooked in this conversation. It's really important. One is there are innovations that happen in combat. There's just it's just how is the natural relationship with, you know, there's a problem solution. And with smart people that are enabled, they will solve it, guaranteed. That's exactly what you're seeing in Ukraine.

00;58;03;14 - 00;58;24;13

Unknown

Ukraine is a guerrilla fight. They're figuring it out. They're finding solutions. Right? It doesn't mean it's a one size fits all, you know, solution to combat. But the other pieces, like DJI, was rolled out into the military too soft because they said, hey, man, we can use this tool. And they integrate into TPS. And then we're like, oh, we have these vulnerabilities with DJI and okay, so fix it or give us a tool that works the same.

00;58;24;16 - 00;58;40;15

Unknown

So the thing that I think is going to be really, impactful in this whole conversation is exactly what Jeff just said. It's when you have capable folks that are creative and have a hard problem, and they have the tools. Let's say it's a modular us and you can do whatever you want with it. You're going to find a different tab that I, I never thought of.

00;58;40;18 - 00;59;06;01

Unknown

Now give them the ability to produce and manufacture in the field. This is going to this is going to ten X innovation across the DoD. Not everyone's an innovator, not everyone's creative, but there's pockets of them all to the military. And and candidly, they get out after their first enlistment because they're so disenfranchized. And what we want to do is we want to we want those smart people using these tools to change the way we they fight, you know, we'll support them.

00;59;06;03 - 00;59;24;06

Unknown

And I'm looking at this is linear for me, right. It's a drone okay. Got it flies and does all these things. They're going to take this thing and they're going to they're going to create something that we've never thought of. As long as they are enabled to do that. And I think that we can provide a, a means to an end that's worth a whole separate episode.

00;59;24;09 - 00;59;41;12

Unknown

The human factor there. We've got the people there already in ranks. We have no ability to identify them. And because we have this binary, you're in the military or you're out of the military, and there's a, you know, a pressure if you want to make an actual salary, you have control over your life to get out. So we do lose our talent 100%.

00;59;41;12 - 00;59;57;02

Unknown

Like, I'm a great example. I tried to start what I'm doing with splash one while on active duty. I got a bunch of strange looks like, how is that going to prepare you to make general officer like, dude, that's that's not what I'm here for. Me to win wars. And if I have to get out of the military to start a drone company to do that.

00;59;57;02 - 01;00;14;29

Unknown

Roger that. I would love to be able to stay in a status where I can fluidly come in, come out, whatever's best to serve the nation that month, uniformed or not. The problem is that, again, we've got this World War Two era mentality in this non dual use. Maybe the dual use thing we should start with are humans.

01;00;15;01 - 01;00;34;26

Unknown

Maybe we should expand the concept of guard and reserve to allow more fluidity to come in and come out as they need or use humans. Yeah. It's the beauty of this format man. You guys just went on a straight heater for the last like 30 minute. Like Rob and I could have turned our videos off and gone and made like, cocktails, and you guys would, just kept going.

01;00;34;26 - 01;00;51;21

Unknown

I mean, that's the beauty of it. And honestly, that's that's the the the plan is like to pair this, you know, these folks together, folks that are, you know, in the field or on the customer side and folks that are, you know, providing, you know, that that solution because it's such a good back and forth to hear it from both perspective.

01;00;51;21 - 01;01;08;25

Unknown

And so I just wish to show you these big words. I mean, I feel stupid so that I know I have to tell. I just nod and smile. Yeah, yeah. I'm good. Yeah. Good. It, and those that aren't, you know, tuned in the video, we got to call out Jeff Stack because it's so perfectly situated for today's conversation.

01;01;08;26 - 01;01;31;26

Unknown

Says, make drones American again. So so this is from, Corvus Systems. They're an American company startup. They're they're building, the rare Earth enabled, motors that I currently have to buy from China. They're building them in the US. It's a new startup. So shout out to those guys doing great work. Sick. Yeah. We'll, we'll give them a plug as well.

01;01;31;26 - 01;01;55;01

Unknown

And we won't promote this, but I just want to just kind of be mindful everyone's time and just kind of wrap into this final segment. So do a little quick rapid fire Q&A. Some business, some really, really personal questions. I'm going to start, let's start with you, Chad. You ready sir? All right. Go ahead and, just pitch firestorm as if I was a five year old.

01;01;55;03 - 01;02;14;03

Unknown

Yeah. 3D printed drones. If you're a five year old. Well, here's what I would do. I would give give you this little Lego set right here, which is, you, Yeah, I probably probably do it for me. I'll do it. Yeah, but no, how we pitched firestorm. You know, we're a manufacturing company with a drone problem, right?

01;02;14;03 - 01;02;35;18

Unknown

And, you know, so we're we're we're scale mass to meet the demands of tomorrow, not not yesterday. And so, let's see, the best way to put it. How do you describe the culture at firestorm? Man, we've got an awesome thing going. And, I think people can sense that even outside our business, we have three founders in this company, and myself, Ian and Dan.

01;02;35;20 - 01;02;54;04

Unknown

We all get along great. I don't know if you see that all the time within a founding team. This is three years, and we still like each other. We're hiring. We're all hiring. Blitz right now. Hiring some excellent engineers. So we need about 40 more people. So if you listen to this, and you think you could be a good fit, you know, the curse page.

01;02;54;06 - 01;03;11;29

Unknown

But our culture is fast. If you walk into our building, it says our mantra on the floor. And that maxim is. Operator. First you have to put the operator first and things you're building and things we're doing. And if we remember that, we're doing this for the right reasons and, got a bunch of other maxims.

01;03;11;29 - 01;03;28;21

Unknown

I won't bore you with, but that's the most important to me. Yeah, we kind of touched on it. But what kind of technologies thrives in your environment? You know, we're getting guys from big companies right now, you know, been there. They want to innovate. They want to change things and break things, and they want to go fast.

01;03;28;21 - 01;03;47;10

Unknown

And they're not finding that those, those big brands, but they come with the, you know, a ton of, expertise. You know, there's a lot to be learned from the big companies. They do a lot of things really well. They build excellent, you know, forth like the jet fighters, they build excellent weapons. And so let's not be, you know, arrogant and say that we figured it out.

01;03;47;13 - 01;04;07;02

Unknown

We need that experience. And we need to apply to the small business mindset. And so, you know, we we allow people to fail fast. The guys are constant testing, I'm really proud of our tech team, our business teams, just as high hitting our high performing, you know, the, the, some of you guys know who you know, Brett Barbee is.

01;04;07;02 - 01;04;25;10

Unknown

He's my, you know, sidekick in this adventure. And, he's the hardest working guy in the industry. And I'd put my reputation on that. So, Yeah. I'm proud to be a part of this thing. Solid. What, what kind of morning routine do you have? What's the first thing you do when you wake up? Yeah, every morning we wake up really early.

01;04;25;13 - 01;04;38;23

Unknown

My wife and I sit down, drink coffee together. We read our Bibles. I read my daily devotion. I spend some time in quiet, and, and then we get our kids ready for school, and I get to take them to school now, in the morning. Something I didn't get to do while I was in the military.

01;04;38;23 - 01;05;00;08

Unknown

And so, being present as a dad, being present as a husband is something I'm really valuing right now and trying to figure out work life balance in between that. So, but those are my priorities in the morning as aside from your phone, what's, one tech gadget that you can't live without? I don't know that that's the only thing out of that.

01;05;00;08 - 01;05;19;10

Unknown

Have you know that my computer, I guess laptop? I don't know, I gotta no, I'd say the AirPods, you know, until they die. AirPods? Yeah. Yeah. What's a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you? I mean, obviously our church, you were actually involved in it. I served there with a, and it was the middle school ministry.

01;05;19;10 - 01;05;41;20

Unknown

Now it's high school ministry. And so that's what really occupies my, my Sunday nights and, young men, as they develop into, you know, leaders, within, you know, whether they go to college or they go into the workforce. I'm affecting, you know, 40 to 50, young men right now. And that's really meaningful to me.

01;05;41;22 - 01;06;01;19

Unknown

If you could, time travel, what's, what's the time frame that you would want to travel back to? I would, yeah, ask, passing on something else. I'm looking forward, man. I'm being honest. Yeah, well, last question. What is your dream job as a kid? That's a good question, Mark. I was just talking to somebody last night.

01;06;01;19 - 01;06;22;20

Unknown

I'd love to been able to fly. Age 60s. Man, I would give everything up. The place is a success in Iraq. Back in the day. I think being a pilot would be the coolest job to. Maybe I'll do it later. All right, let's let's get to you real quick. I want to dial in a little bit on this, your recent transition into civilian world.

01;06;22;20 - 01;06;40;21

Unknown

So, what, you know, kind of military leadership skill would you say is most transferable to a founder of a small startup? Oh, man. If you're doing military leadership. Right, it's to rapidly orient yourself to the new situation you're in. I think that the habit of military leaders is to ask, what did the last guy do?

01;06;40;21 - 01;06;59;17

Unknown

And that's toxic. It builds a, you know, a habit and a pattern that doesn't adapt to the real world. When you come into a new situation, you need to men in black pen flash everything you think you know. Look at the thing, tabula rasa and design something for the era, the people and the mission you have right then and there.

01;06;59;19 - 01;07;26;21

Unknown

01;07;26;23 - 01;07;45;26

Unknown

What's, what's been your biggest challenge in building a stealth stealth mode? Start up? Oh, man. The uncertainty of knowing what's coming next for me professionally, like knowing when and how to be able to actually get out of the military, the restrictions that come like, I'm still getting a paycheck, I'm still on active duty, like as I'm speaking.

01;07;45;26 - 01;08;13;29

Unknown

Right now, but I'm short final to retire. So navigating those legal challenges, those ethical challenges, I'm moving my family here, in a couple of months. I don't know where we're moving and dealing with all that while trying to get the company off the ground. Me personally, you know, being involved with the, the the new administration, having been, you know, talking about a position that require me to be in a suit and the government here having to say yes or no and figure out all these opportunities, man, if you if there is no conflict, there is no interest.

01;08;14;05 - 01;08;34;16

Unknown

And I've got so many ties to different parts of this industry that picking one thing, burning all the other options, that John Doolan, founder of Modern Intelligence, he and I were having beers on my porch a couple months ago, and he said, dude, the way it is that you have all these versions of the the future versions of you that are streaming to say, pick me, make me the one that you do.

01;08;34;16 - 01;08;51;27

Unknown

And every one of them represents your dream. To succeed, you have to take all 20 of those. Yes, pick one of them and take the other 19 to the backyard and put a bullet in their head and say, you're just not going to be real. And that one you I'm burning the boat so you can be the real one.

01;08;51;29 - 01;09;16;23

Unknown

01;09;16;26 - 01;09;37;27

Unknown

And I've got an adapter that makes it so I can USB plug that in. And when I'm doing deep work and I'm writing, just my hands flow and it feels good. And that's, it's all yellow and gross from being used for, you know, 40 something years. So that's your answer. In this, if you want to be near it down and.

01;09;38;00 - 01;09;59;25

Unknown

That sound, though, it is nostalgic, isn't it, that old? Just like there's nothing like it. Yeah. Is there a a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you? Kind of. So I'm really involved with my son's school, Drake, my 14 year old, he goes to Hawaii Technology Academy, and I try to be involved with their drone club, the robotics club, help them out on all of their field trips.

01;09;59;28 - 01;10;23;18

Unknown

So that's that's the closest thing I'm a big fan of, of mentoring. Like Chad was saying that the next generation of folks, the people that made me who I am, that was a debt that I'm trying to, you know, pay back and pay for it to be part of the the bigger thing. I'm a big believer in paying people for their work, but the kids can't pay you yet, so we got to pay them with our with our time and energy.

01;10;23;20 - 01;10;43;24

Unknown

01;10;43;27 - 01;11;03;07

Unknown

And he was just stuck in a pre-industrial era where he couldn't make any of his ideas come to come to life. I loved the idea of going back to his era, put him in a time machine, take Chad's ticket and yeah, that's like a plus. I kind of see him as patterns. You're going to be a Tesla someday, right?

01;11;03;10 - 01;11;23;23

Unknown

Bonus points for not settling for Elon Musk, which is like the number one answer every every time. I know Elon's great, but he's a he's a product of our era and he's done amazing things in our era. I'm curious on like a multi, you know, millennium perspective who could else thrive with the opportunity we have. And that's worth noting guys.

01;11;23;23 - 01;11;50;24

Unknown

We live in this era. We aren't in the era where like, we know we're we're peasants and and Holland corn and wishing that we could do this. We have all the tools. We have this opportunity. And it's sick that we get to live in this timeline. What's the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed? Oh, God. So I'm lucky that I've been a combination of a nerd and a military guy to a fashion has been just never something I care about.

01;11;50;26 - 01;12;13;25

Unknown

I'll. I'll say that that was it. In my early 20s. I loved the Marine Corps ethos, horrible haircuts being an indicator of a skilled warrior. And I didn't get it. I was a new guy. If you see pictures of me from that era, I'm sorry. Like, I look like a complete idiot. And that's part of the reason that I'm adverse to heritage these days.

01;12;13;25 - 01;12;35;04

Unknown

I'm like, that's not a thing like a good haircut and a good shave and a shiny boots wasn't the indicator of a good marine. That was a good marine. And I believed that crap when I was a young guy, you know, in my teens and early 20s. And I had the revelation, you know, probably mid 20s, like, wait a minute, these guys are absolute idiots, but they just happen to look like good soldiers.

01;12;35;04 - 01;12;56;21

Unknown

There's no correlation here. And in fact, you can hide a lack of knowledge and competence behind the right guttural grunts and, you know, shiny uniform. And so now I'm very adverse to that when I see somebody who puts a lot of pride in their appearance in military stuff. My, what do you hide the. All right, last question, then we'll wrap.

01;12;56;24 - 01;13;27;06

Unknown

Your favorite dream job as a kid. Dude, I think I'm living it like I knew growing up that I wanted to be both a special operator and a computer tech guy, and I could never reconcile those two partitions in my brain. And here I am, like, the special operator who got to do drone stuff in the Pacific, all the replicator stuff that the word that you can Google and I can't say, like I got to be the driving force behind a lot of that in the Pacific while doing a lot of the special ops stuff behind it.

01;13;27;06 - 01;13;45;21

Unknown

So I'm, I think I'm pretty lucky I got to got to do it sick and awesome. That's good. Good point to wrap on and appreciate you guys joining us. And you know, spend some insights and yeah paying it forward and giving giving back the knowledge to the next wave. Appreciate you join the pod. Yeah. Thanks, man, for having us on.

01;13;45;21 - 01;13;46;04

Unknown

Thanks, guys.