Valor in the Workforce: Unlocking Veteran Talent with Headlamp | The Pair Program Ep45

Tim Winkler: 00:00:05

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of hatchpad, and I'm your other host, Mike Gruen. Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups and career growth. Hi everyone. Welcome back to The Pair Program. Uh, Tim Winkler here alongside Mike Gruen. So Mike, I was going to ask you this past weekend, we took Alice to, uh, to a Caps game, um, and we, we had taken her previously when she was like three months and we had like the whole like headphone set, uh, have you taken your kids to like sporting events or concerts when they were younger? Did you, did you do that? I was always curious cause I was doing some research on this of like, well, what's the decibels? Uh, what's the safe zone for kids? Uh, To go without the earmuffs.

Mike Gruen: 00:01:06

So we did. And my oldest actually, when he was, uh, it's funny that you asked that because I still have the headsets. I use them for when I'm using the chainsaw. Uh, cause we ended up having to get bigger pairs. Um, uh, cause my oldest was actually really sensitive to noise, like all the way through, uh, like first grade or I guess, kindergarten. Um, and so, um, like fire alarms, all kinds of things. So, yeah, we, we, anytime we were going into like a loud venue, definitely use them, um, with the older one, probably more lax with the younger one, because that's just how that goes.

Tim Winkler: 00:01:42

That's right.

Mike Gruen: 00:01:43

Uh, so my younger one's going to have, you know, uh, ringing in his ears and all the rest of it.

Tim Winkler: 00:01:49

We actually forgot them. We're, we're a gunner brand. We forgot them. She's 15 months, but, uh, we, we were just, as soon as we got in, just kind of looking around. It's like, oh, okay. There's a ton of little babies here. So we weren't

Mike Gruen: 00:02:01

public shaming. Yeah. Yeah. I would say cap center, like for a caps game, it's super loud there. It does get loud. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, There's even reports that they pipe, uh, the, uh, crowd noise back in over the PA to make it even louder, um, which is, uh,

Tim Winkler: 00:02:15

sounds like a, sounds like a New York, uh, Rangers, uh, I mean, the

Mike Gruen: 00:02:18

Rangers,

Tim Winkler: 00:02:19

no, no, the Rangers do it to every, every, every, they're not supposed to, but

Mike Gruen: 00:02:24

long

Tim Winkler: 00:02:26

and short, it was loud caps one and Ovi had two goals. So it was a good, it was a good, uh, good outing. Um, cool. All right, let's, uh, let's just jump into the episode we've got for today. So we're going to be focusing on a conversation that sits kind of at this intersection of talents, recruiting and veterans, um, specifically discussing the special skills that veterans bring to tech and the emerging roles for them. And the industry, um, you know, veterans play a critical role in tech sectors that are crucial, obviously to like national security. So areas like cybersecurity and energy. Um, we'll hear firsthand from a former army recruiter turned startup founder, uh, of a company on a mission that is designed to help veterans transition to the civilian world, um, as well, uh, uh, the co founder of a venture firm that's backing this really interesting startup. So. Our first guest is Steve Chang. Steve's the distinguished former special forces officer and the founder of headlamp. Uh, and joining Steve is Jeremy Hitchcock. Jeremy's a trailblazer, former tech entrepreneur as well. Uh, multiple, uh, co founder of, of multiple startups. Uh, and he's currently the co founder of new North ventures. Um, thank you both for joining us on the podcast today, guys.

Steve Chang: 00:03:46

Yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:03:47

Thanks for having us. Thanks. Absolutely. Uh, all right. Now, uh, before we do dive into the discussion, we are going to kick things off with our pair me up segment. Like you go ahead and lead us off by what you got today.

Mike Gruen: 00:04:01

So we're going back to food. Um, I thought about this a lot. Um, it's going to be bananas and maple syrup, but hold on. It's not like I just drown maple syrup on bananas or drown bananas and maple syrup. I like pancakes with bananas and I also like French toast. With bananas. And then I realized it's really just the, it's the, they're just maple syrup deliveries, factories, uh, systems. So it's really the bananas and the maple syrup that are, that are the key to that. Uh, so that's my pairing. Um, it's been a while since I've done foods. I figured I'd go back. Back to that. Well, who's welcome here

Tim Winkler: 00:04:35

to try that out with, uh, so Alice, she's obsessed with bananas. So we're all about trying, uh, you know, anything. And I think our last guest had the, the bananas in the, um, was it the marshmallow fluff?

Mike Gruen: 00:04:49

No, he was doing peanut butter and marshmallow fluff, but, um, I will say the, uh, my mom, when we made, when she made banana pancakes, the bananas were sliced into the batter. Like it was cooked. The bananas were cooked into the pancakes. I much prefer that to the, put the bananas on top at the end. Then it's just now you're just having fruit on top of your pancakes. I like it actually in the pancake. There you go. Good, good Intel.

Tim Winkler: 00:05:13

Cool. Yeah, I dig. I dig that. Uh, I'm going to actually go with the food parent as well. Um, so something that, um, We had a couple of years ago, uh, at a breakfast spot out in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I've been a fan of it ever since. Um, it's kind of become a little bit of a staple in our household, but it's this combination of an egg and cheese sandwich and strawberry preserves. Um, so it's this combination of like the sweet. With the preserves and then the savory with the egg and cheese and you throw it on an English muffin and treat yourself. If you haven't tried that, just, uh, it's a pretty good combo. We recommend like a Vermont cheddar too, if you're going for a nice cheese on top of the egg, but, uh, Uh, give it a shot, add the jelly, add the, add the preserves and, um, it's a, it's a righteous combo.

Mike Gruen: 00:06:08

Sounds good. I do like, I do like that.

Tim Winkler: 00:06:13

Yeah. All right. Keeping a breakfast theme here. Let's see if we can, we can switch it up here. Let's, let's pass it over to our guest, uh, Steve. How about, uh, a quick intro and, uh, and your

Steve Chang: 00:06:25

pairing? Yeah, Tim. Thanks. Uh, so Steve Chang, I'm a retired army special forces officer, like you said, and a founder of a company called headlamp, which we'll talk about. I don't know. I guess I'm going to break from the breakfast thing. Um, and I thought about this to try to stay on brand. You know, it's like the comfy couch and it's like that wasn't me. Um, so for me, the pairing is, uh, early spring, you know, late winter, sort of in Boston and the start of soccer season. Um, And it's just this like, beautiful, you know, getting outdoors. Finally. Um, it's still horrible. We were out there last weekend. It was, uh, 35 degrees and rainy, you know, on the field and it's just, you know, you're getting drenched, but you're, you're finally back out and you're, you know, the kids are out there. Yeah, soccer is pretty much what I do when I'm not working, um, kids are out there running around and, and then, yeah, you get all dried up, you get back home and it's just a, it's great to, to get back outdoors. So soccer and early season. So that's my parents. How many kids you got? Uh, three kids, you know, the, like the high school and middle school. So yeah. Yeah, so a little bit older. I bet we've been doing this

Tim Winkler: 00:07:41

for a while, you know? Yeah. Soccer is a great sport for, uh, you know, for kids getting into it. And, uh, I played growing up as well. Didn't, didn't play in the high school, but, um, you know, it gets pretty serious when she started thinking about like, you know, travel leagues and, and club teams, stuff like that. But, uh, it's a commitment for sure. Three kids. Yeah.

Mike Gruen: 00:08:01

I played once a little and then took a break and then played all through high school is great. Loved it. Nice.

Steve Chang: 00:08:07

No, definitely. Uh, yeah, the whole, uh, thing is a huge business and it's a racket, but, uh, you know, and we've been, uh, we've been out there for many, many seasons. So our weekends are shot. But it's great.

Tim Winkler: 00:08:20

Yeah. I mean, youth sports at large is just becoming this, uh, obsessive space. And it's actually like speaking of startups, we, we, we worked with a company in the past called Game Changer that does a lot of like the, the data, uh, and live streaming of, of youth, like baseball sports. Um, I mean, Dick's owns it, Dick's Sporting Goods owns it. Just, uh, an insane, uh, movement, I think, uh, it seems like in the last like 10 plus years of just parents becoming uber obsessed with, uh, with the youth sports, you know, it is what it is. I think it's a, it's a, it's a hobby for them just as much as it is for the kids. Cool. All right. Let's, uh, let's pass it over to, uh, to Jeremy. Uh, how about a quick intro and your pairing? All

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:09:08

right. Great to be here. Uh, intro for me, co founder and director at new North ventures, early stage venture fund backing things at the intersection of innovation and national security, and as you said, prior to this started a bunch of things, had a fun time doing that for. Uh, the tech space for, for a bunch of years building, building stuff and my pairing, I'm going to stay on breakfast because I can stay on breakfast if it's morning, lunch, or evening. Sorry, Steve. Uh, so I, I mean, I feel like it's an all the time thing and I, I definitely want to want to draft off the, uh, the maple syrup thing because it's maple syrup season. I hope everybody's getting their sugaring going on. We're certainly no different getting the sap, boiling it down and making, make it some fun at New Hampshire. Maple syrup. That is the finest.

Tim Winkler: 00:09:57

My wife's got family in Vermont, so they'd probably had to, they argue a little bit uh, with you in terms of the, the finest, but what, what is it, uh, what is it? You're, you're throwing that on? Is it, um, your pancakes, waffles? What's your, what's that breakfast of choice for you? Well, they're, they're different. I mean, the, the

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:10:14

waffles, you know, they have, they have the little, uh, Spots for all the nooks and crannies, nooks and crannies, just like an English muffin, but you put the preserves in, but you get a little bit more air interaction going on with the maple and the pancakes pancakes. It's just like, you know, get it done. Like we're going to get some maple syrup on a delivery vehicle and we're going to get the maple syrup in the mouth as possible. I dig it. I dig it. No shots. No shots of maple syrup, though. I think that's, that's probably a little too much.

Steve Chang: 00:10:41

Yeah. I go back and throw in chicken, you know, fried chicken and waffles, waffles, delicious.

Tim Winkler: 00:10:49

Yeah. I might just cut this a podcast short and go grab some food and getting, getting hungry here. Just talking about it. I had to skip breakfast

Mike Gruen: 00:10:57

cause we're doing a morning one, so, uh, hope it's new Hampshire maple syrup. You're going to

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:11:03

find.

Tim Winkler: 00:11:05

Cool. All right. Let's, uh, let's transition from the food and, and, and dive into the discussion here. So, um, the way I kind of see this conversation flowing, I, I'd like to begin with Steve and, and Steve, you giving our listeners just a little bit more additional context on your background and, and your journey leading up to headlamp as this story clearly plays a part into, you know, why you, you built headlamp and then obviously expand a little bit more into like what headlamp is doing and how it's solving some of these problems. Uh, once you kick that off and then we can, um, pass it over to Jeremy and learn a little bit more about how you guys intersected.

Steve Chang: 00:11:40

Yeah, so thanks for that. Um, and thanks for the chance to talk about this. I mean, uh, I can't, I tend to run into missions and I have a hard time setting them down. Like, I'm a little bit obsessive when it comes to that and. A few years back, uh, 1 of the, you know, formative things that happened is I came up to New England and I was put in charge of the army recruiting battalion. Yeah. Spent like 18 years of my career in. Infantry special operations, like, doing all that kind of stuff and had had a few things in training and that kind of thing. But. Um, you know, it was mostly operationally focused and so they, uh, at the end of all that decided, hey, the best spot for Steve, uh, for his development is to send them up to New England and try to do recruiting and. You know, for all the recruiters who might be army recruiters, especially who might be listening out there, like, they know New England is. Is a tough, tough spot to recruit from, uh, for the military. Uh, everyone's going to college. Everyone's, you know, got great opportunities ahead of them. Not a lot of military presence, that kind of stuff. Um, and I guess what happened is, you know, as I got into that mission, I started really diving, you know, cause I'm trying to solve, you know, accomplish our mission and, and we had to figure this, this out, uh, just saw like where, how young people are making their decisions, where they're ended up and. You know, we ended up changing our tactics a little bit. We started targeting college dropouts because, you know, as many as the, as much as the kids were going to college from here, uh, they were dropping out, uh, you know, not all of them were graduating. And so we started, uh, approaching them and, you know, offering them a lifeline, you know, a job chance to pay off loans, that kind of thing. So, you know, what that shed light on for me, I guess, is tying it back to headlamp is. Like the quality of veterans that we have in the military, you know, it's just, it's, this isn't your World War II Vietnam era veterans. It's, you know, not even Gulf War, early Gulf War, right? This is a highly technically, you know, technical acumen, uh, high, high aptitude. You know, it's, it's really hard to get into the military, um, these days. And so, um, you know, I'm fast forwarding and I'm mixing some of the years up on, on our journey, but, you know, sort of, uh, ended up realizing. Um, you know, as I was going through the process of leaving the military myself, um, the system to support veterans as they're leaving the service is, is just broken. And it's not, you know, very, uh, it's not very well organized. It's not, you know, meant to optimize anything. It's, it's really just haphazard. And then, you know, on the flip side, employers are just missing out on just so much talent. I mean, we're talking about 7 percent of the workforce is veterans out there. And if you have a sort of blind spot on how to, how to bring in veterans into your workforce, you just, you can't be successful. So, you know, went to business school as I was leaving the military, decided and kind of knew that I wanted to be entrepreneurial. Uh, figured out that, you know, of all the things I know, I know veterans, the best, you know, maybe we'll talk about some of the, uh, early things I tried to do, but, um, you know, focused on transitioning veterans and realizing that there's just, you know, immense value coming out of the force. And. Um, you know, how, how do we optimize it? And then, you know, as I started talking to folks at like Jeremy and the circles that we run in, like this, this isn't just, uh, important for veterans, important for employers, but this is like a national security thing. Like this is. In an extremely potent talent, um, talent pool that if we're not tapping into, if we're not utilizing properly, you know, I don't want to go too extreme on this, but, you know, we, we, we need to do that in order to. To create a, you know, secure democracy and those sorts of things. So, so I'll stop there, you know, see, see where else you want to head.

Tim Winkler: 00:15:39

Yeah. Yeah, no, it's, it's a really fascinating, uh, subject. And, um, you know, we, we actually held a, uh, an episode not too much, not too long ago, uh, specifically centered around military spouse unemployment and how that was a national security issue. And so after, after following up on that conversation, uh, I wanted to make a point to, you know, get a, get an episode centered around, you know, veterans transitioning as well. Um, because I don't think there's enough awareness about it. Uh, I think it is a, you know, for example, the military spouse unemployment is a national security issue as well. Um, and so when you bring it into that light, um, You know, it is something that I think people need to be aware of. I think corporations need to be privy to it. Um, and, um, you know, how, how do we, how do we solve that problem? So I think that's a good, um, segue right into, uh, headlamp, right? So what, what, what is headlamp, uh, give us the, the, the pitch on headlamp and, um, you know, how, how are you, uh, solving this problem, uh, with the technology?

Steve Chang: 00:16:48

No, thanks. Um, lately I've been describing headlamp as a, as a giant bonfire and I am just like, you know, trying to solve, uh, lots of issues. But, you know, what I, what I would say is headlamp is a, uh, Jeremy gets a kick out of that, uh, headlamps, uh, it's a veteran transition accelerator, you know, our mission, we serve to, uh, to, you know, customers, we serve veterans, uh, that are leaving active duty service and, and looking for, you know, You know, help as they exit the military and try to navigate the private sector for the 1st time in their lives. You know, for most of them, um, anywhere from 150 to 250, 000 a year, just depending on sort of how things are going on the macro scale. Uh, so that's a that's a lot of people. Uh, who need help. And then at the same time, we are serving employers who are trying to gain a competitive advantage. They're trying to, you know, uh, achieve some, some objectives. They're trying to, you know, generate some value for, you know, for their firm, their stakeholders, whatnot. And, you know, we tend to think the ones that come that are willing to talk to us, you know, they're smart because they understand that, uh, there's a competitive advantage to be had by talking to veterans. So, so we serve as a veteran transition accelerator. Um, You know, operate a bit of a marketplace in the sense that, you know, we're serving these 2 sides, but really, and this is maybe where the technology can start talking about technology can come towards. It really is like this, uh, in the center of our operation. Making sure that we have a human in the loop, right? We have this person we call them career liaison officers. Funny story on that. Um. You know, uh, I was, uh, initially, you know, we were, we had a tech advisor and he had, you know, done some work with stitch fix. And so we came up on this concept of the stylist that they have, right. You know, but the stylist at the middle and we're like, oh, career stylist, that sounds, you know, that's swanky, that's fancy, you know, let's get these, these veterans, uh, retiring veterans and make them career stylists. And I was talking to just a friend and he's like. That does not sound military at all. Like, dude, you have to change this up. And so we brainstormed over, over coffee and came up with the career liaison officer, you know, very military sounding, still career focused. Um, you know, whatever we call them there, they function as recruiters. They function as, um, mentors to the veterans. They function as interface with HR. Um, But, but they play a critical role in sort of, you know, communicating context between the 2 parties because, yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Sorry about keep clear of my throat. We can just edit those out. You know, I, I keep, uh, you know, at the center of it, um, that, so there are a lot of things out there that are trying to automate this completely. And this is maybe where again, we can talk about the technology. It's like, yeah, there's technology for technology's sake to do this. You know, let me look at your, uh, your ratings and your moss and, you know, all the skills that the military gave you. And then we'll tell you what, what you can do at different firms and it's like, but, but people don't operate that way. You know, they don't want to be told. Um, I know from a recruiting, it's like a early insight. I had, you know, what somebody is doing in the military. Oftentimes, and probably, you know, most of the time has nothing to do with what they're interested in, what they're capable of doing. From a recruiting perspective, you know, little secret to all these future recruits, but like what you're being shown is, you know, that's what you're being pushed towards is, is the mission for the day, right? We, Hey, we're trying to fill some infantry folks. Hey, we're, we're trying to fill some truck drivers. Like there, there's a big mission on the other side of it, right. For the military. And so, you know, pigeonholing people to what they did in the military. Is like, you know, that's a recipe for, for failure. And so having senior NCOs who understand that, uh, talking to spending the time to talk to the veterans as they're coming out and having, you know, getting the context about what they're interested in, where, you know, sort of what is that trajectory that they're on? That's really, you know, important for us. And so that's, that's where we've spent a lot of our time. So that's headlight. That's what we do. And, you know, boils down to those guys.

Tim Winkler: 00:21:15

It's fascinating. I've got, um, a number of, of, uh, follow up questions in terms of, you know, how you guys, um, you know, how you're matching skills and so forth. Um, but, uh, I want to loop Jeremy in at this point and, uh, Jeremy give us, uh, I guess a little bit of the backstory on how you got connected with Steve and, um, and then, you know, a little bit more on new North ventures. Thanks.

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:21:42

Sure. So the first time, and I'm curious if Steve remembers this, but I was, uh, Uh, community college trustee, uh, for the community college system of New Hampshire, seven community colleges touching about, uh, 25, 30, 000 students and in New Hampshire, and we were doing a workforce development, uh, event in the morning. No waffles that morning. So obviously very sad going back to our breakfast story. I just want to, you know, keep on story, but we're, we're at, we're hanging out at some, some ridiculously early morning, which, you know, I'm not a big morning event thing, but it was, was doing, um, was doing basically the state of the state of employment in the state of New Hampshire. And I had gotten into workforce development through the, the, the fact of being outside of Boston. Running a company at the time that was hiring a lot of high tech people. And every time I complain, people would say, well, go do something about it. Okay. That's, that's fair. Let's go, let's go do something about it. And so I ended up in the community college system because I felt that that was one of the places where from a skills perspective, there was some of the most leverage that was, that was, that was, uh, to be done there. Um, so afterwards, uh, Steve came up and said, Oh, we're doing like this thing and this, this, whatever. And to be honest, I really don't remember the pitch. I remember it wasn't that great, but I remember Steve and like, Oh, this guy, this guy really wants to like climb up a wall. That's going to lead to nowhere. Maybe you should do these other couple of things instead. And, uh, we, we kept in touch, uh, and I'm, I'm being a little pejorative. It wasn't that bad, Steve. Um, but yeah, it's fair, it's fair. It's not completely fair. I mean, it's the, it's the iteration side of, of, of, uh, business. Um, we kept in touch and then a couple of years later, uh, he was, He was in the, the kind of the, the new version of, of what is now a headlamp. And, uh, we got excited about it because it's, it's not, and we had a bunch of discussion internally, like recruiting and people, there's a lot of technology that supports that, and that's all venture funded, but in the sense of, of this, this essentially matching or thinking about how to do. Upscaling transition, it's, it, it does have a bit more of a mission driven than it does a, a venture scale aspect when you first look at it. But when you look at some of the technology that you can develop and some of the problems you can actually solve around, there's a variety of, of, of critical infrastructure areas that people are hiring for. I mean, if you ever try to hire an engineer, a person's doing user experience, a semiconductor design, like they, it's full employment. And it is still full employment and. You have literally tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. Steve would probably know the exact number of people who are transitioning out of the military who, who have had years of, of, of what Steve said. Like, Hey, you know what, this year you're going to be a recruiter. Hey, this year, you're going, you're going to do, um, underwater welding. Uh, this year you're going to go do cyber stuff this year. You're going to like, you know, some of those have a bit more of a long term transition, but, you That mentality of being able to pick up, go somewhere, work in a team, excel, learn a bunch of hard skills. That is something that employers are looking for because their needs are also changing. So, uh, we, we, we got very excited about the concept of headlamp of thinking about how that, uh, is really a beachhead into a variety of other things. Um, again, looking at this, this need for satisfying demands of employers

Mike Gruen: 00:25:15

looking for, for talent. Jeremy, one thing you said that I just wanted to pick up on the work on a team thing. So a long time ago, I was, I joked that I was the diversity hire at this company, uh, Red Owl, because I was the first non military hire they made. So everybody there was about seven, seven or eight people on the military. And one thing that impressed me beyond anything else was just that aspect of teamwork. Everybody there, they're on the same team. We're fighting, you know, there's no, there was just such an alignment. Um, and. And all the, you know, like it just permeated the culture of the company, this get to alignment, get to alignment quickly, get on that mission, get on, you know, and move forward. Like. Not debate everything forever and stuff like that. And I think that that's, um, such a value that can't be, you can't put enough emphasis on it and something that so many veterans bring to the table. I, I, I loved my time working with all those guys. Uh, I'm still in touch with a lot of them. Um, and yeah, it was, it was a great experience. So I think the whole like work as a team thing cannot be undervalued. And I just wanted to underscore that since you mentioned it.

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:26:20

Yeah. And the soft skills aspect is also a real, like, that's another one. That's, that's a real challenge. And I think that's one of the insights that Steve has is it's not just, oh, okay. Like this is my MOS. This is like what I did, but that aspect of, you know, a lot of these people are joining when they're in their, their, their young, their youngins, they're, they're in their teens, maybe early twenties. And they're get, they have to, they're forced to work with people and live with people that they don't get to choose. And guess what? That changes. And so you know what you figure out how to do? You figure out how to cut through the noise and work with people, work with people maybe you don't like, but be able to respect other people's perspective because they're coming from different geographies, different skill sets. They're younger than them. They're older than them. They're different, everything. And that is something I think that. As companies have continued to evolve, trying to increase that, that perspective is so important because they're, they're serving usually a global audience and, and that aspect of having. A, a, a, well, you know, a funnel of, of, of talented people who are used to that and who can excel in that and often train other people, uh, that's that I think is, is, is a priceless thing. It's hard to measure, but I think in, in time that that'll, that'll show itself

Mike Gruen: 00:27:29

much better. The adaptability is a key one. The other one, uh, as you were talking, I was reminded, um, is, um, I think there's a big misconception outside of the military that the military is a very top down, like. Organization where everything is like, you know, the guys at the bottom don't have a lot of decision making capability. But the fact of the matter is, it's not that way at all. There's the plan, but like everything like what? Yes, there's some sort of battle plan or whatever. But the fact of the matter is, it's the guys on the ground. They're making a lot of those decisions. And And, and are empowered to do so. And I think that's another big misconception outside of the military or people in the military that they, you know, that they just follow orders, but that's not the case at all. Um, I think that's another one to this worth dispelling, um, great teamwork, adaptability, able to think on their feet, stuff like that.

Steve Chang: 00:28:19

Now, you know, Mike, uh, that's what I was saying earlier about, you know, the difference of our military today versus maybe, you know, what we read about or the movies we watched in the past. And yeah, sure. There's that element of the chain of command and learning how to follow orders, but that that's like basic training. You know, that's the first few months of your life. So, you know, cause you are taking people from across the US, every demographic, every, you know, Every different group, right? Because the military is meant to reflect the population it serves. And so, you know, the recruiters are out there in every community and. And you bring them all into training, so you have to figure out how to turn it, turn them into a team, get them to work together. But then, you know, once you get out there and you're into the force, I mean, especially if you're overseas and you're working operations, you talk about the strategic corporal, right? It's these young people have to make these decisions. And because of the way the world is. The action of a 18, 19, 20 year old could have strategic impacts. And so you have to train them, you have to trust them and you have to, you know, enable that. And, uh, yeah, I can't, I can't say enough about sort of the quality of the, you know, the veterans, you know, the, their abilities, their soft skills, leadership team, all that, um, you know, and it just depends on, you know, the other thing is like veterans aren't monolithic. Right. It's, uh, You know, they're, they're just not one group that they, they run the entire spectrum of, of everything, um, you know, in any dimension you're thinking about. And so, you know, that, that's, that's been our approach again, not to just keep talking about headlight, but. You know, like I said, I can't put a mission down. So like, this is, we're going to figure this thing out, but, um, you know, you got to help, uh, each individual. Right. And so we're

Tim Winkler: 00:30:10

here to talk about headlamps. So you can keep talking about headlamp. I, um, you know, we, we, we run a tech recruiting company, um, as the backbone of our business and, you know, we, we primarily focus on startups. Uh, and, and I think that's such a, A unique environment, right? Because a lot of these skills that you describe here, it's like, um, they, they're really, they, they coincide with what a lot of startups are looking for, right? So this, this level of scrappiness, this ability to kind of, Mike, you alluded to it, like, um, almost like being autonomous, right? Like, you know, it can't be handheld. You can't be babysat all day. Like, you know, trust that you'll be able to go out there and make decisions and, um, and, and, you know, Uh, adaptability, right? Of course, like, you know, it's kind of ever changing. It's, it's growing, like, how are you going to multitask and wear multiple hats? So, um, I'm curious to know from on skill bridge on skill bridge side, you know, on the employer side of things, do you find trends in the size of company that, um, you know, has interest in, you know, participating and, uh, in hiring up, uh, some of these veterans, or is it truly across the board or anything from fortune 500 down to. You know, scrappy startups.

Steve Chang: 00:31:23

Yeah. So, um, I didn't mention skill bridge earlier to, um, you know, just quick plug on that skill bridge is a D. O. D. program allows service members in the last 6 months to go. Into a place of future employment and work there while the government pays. So they're not unpaid interns. You know, their, their salary, their benefits, all that continues. Um, and it just, it's, it's a great tool to enable. And so we, we help employers, uh, leverage that. Um, I mean, we've had companies that, like, like you described, you know, these defense technology, dual use, uh, startup community. Uh, places looking for just, you know, we need 1 or 2 veterans that, um, that can help us, um, break into this market or, you know, be an end user, uh, subject matter expert, you know. The amount of technology, by the way, like that our service members have in their hands and that they're trained on a day to day basis. Like, I'm jealous now because I'm starting to get dated, right? Like, there are things that, you know, guys that in my old units, they have that. It's just like, man, that would have been fantastic a few years ago. So, you know, that the level of technical acumen is incredibly high and with. You know, the increase in defense technology, you know, investment going on at least, you know, from the surface, it looks like that's happening. Um, it's a, it's a great fit because you have all these, you know, young people who are hungry with all those things we talked about, soft skills. Um, who have the technical acumen and, uh, you know, are great fits for the, these small companies to the extent, you know, a lot of them end up becoming founders as well to try to solve problems. Um, at the same time, you know, uh, we, we've got firms that we're working with that are much larger publicly traded, you know, fortune 1, 500, maybe, um. That just need a workforce, right? They're trying to create a pipeline. Maybe they're solving some issues. So, um, I mean, it's really available to anyone. And, uh, we sort of joke that going back to the individual thing and and. You know, what we're trying to do from a technology standpoint, it's 150, 000 veterans a year. Let's say they're interested in like 300, 000 things. You know, so, like, you know, how do you how do you sort of direct all that traffic when, um, you know, each individual is trying to do their own thing and and figure their own way out. So, um, you know, some of them are absolutely interested in, you know, working for, you know, This big corporate job, some of them, uh, we found a good sweet spot in, uh, sort of this middle market private equity. I think that's a great spot for the soft soft skills because, uh, these are firms that are. They're trying to grow, you know, most of them or some of them, like, they're, um, they're at a certain size and they've reached that point where. They need fresh talent, they need, you know, people with these leadership skills that also, you know, have the drive and the hunger and all that, uh, to come in and, and help drive new growth. And so, um, and it's a, it's a spot where veterans can have an outsize impact. You know, they get plugged into, like, the, you know, the biggest firms out there. You're just a cog in the wheel. Right. And you sort of get consumed by that, but, you know, that leadership and. Management ability, I think comes to the forefront when you're in a smaller environment, you know, still well resourced, still, you know, growing and, you know, not too small, but, um, you're just not consumed by the machine. I guess.

Tim Winkler: 00:34:56

And Jeremy, so with new north, you know, you all are pretty focused on early stage, um, uh, startups, but, you know, it, it, it seems like it's a heavy focus in the national security related, uh, industry, um, probably a lot of dual use, uh, is, uh, is, is top of mind right now is what we're seeing as well, but I'm curious on your, on your side of things, you know, um, With maybe any sort of like advisory or input that goes into hiring for some of your portfolio. Have you seen any trends for maybe defense tech focused, uh, companies that, that you're working with, you know, have interest in, in, uh, you know, some, some, uh, veterans that, you know, were end users, right. Of some, of, of some very similar technologies or products and have that kind of like. You know, empathy on, on what the product does, uh, I'm curious to hear from, you know, you, you've talked to a lot of, a lot of these companies. So have you seen any trends with that?

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:35:58

Yeah. I mean, you, you see a huge demand for talent in different ways. And I think that's, that's something that, that, that we see and it's consistent across, uh, the startup community and they're, they're actively, you, the ones that are hiring. So people think about, well, where do jobs come from? Who hires? Well, companies hire people. And they're more often than not, the smaller organizations who are creating employment. Usually big companies, they, they have a pretty steady state for, for, for employment and everybody tries to match and fill, fill jobs and fill requirements, uh, in different ways. And so we've seen some of our, our startups, they, uh, they're, they're super excited about the skill bridge and, and fellowships, uh, a company like headlamp can provide. We have some who are like, no, no, no. I have a bunch of service people, former service. People, I'm a former serviceman or woman myself, I need to diversify my workforce. I don't need to double down in this, this area. Uh, the, the greater question on, on this dual use aspect, uh, is definitely very topical. I mean, there's, we, we joked that there's a little bit of tourism going on because it is the new hotness, but it's, I think a recognition that a lot of really interesting innovation comes from these deep tech teams and. Love it or hate it. Government is usually one of the organizations that can take these long term bets, whether it's space, whether it's internet, uh, whether it's, it's, it's some, some themes and biotechnical, uh, studies, uh, you know, think about where vaccines have come from. It's usually been these long term programs that have been invested in for years and years and years and years and years, and then there's a bunch of smart people who come out and they say, you know what, we're going to build a company around this particular idea. We're going to scale it. We're going to get a bunch of venture money, and then we're going to go, go public. We're going to get acquired. We're going to create a bunch of, a bunch of value, and then we're going to go rinse, repeat and go do it, do it again. And that I think is a pattern that we're excited about because there is a return to. This hard tech environment, not to say that there isn't more software stuff that we can do of information technology, just transforming things. That was an era I grew up in, but now it's a lot more lab based. It's a, it's much more hands on. It's software talking to robotic things. It's software talking to biologic things and everything in the middle. So people who understand how to use all of that technology, understand how to embed that into, into business and to integrate value. Those are the people that are going to do well. And, and that's, that's, that's where we, again, going back to the theme on flexible team based oriented people who, okay, you're a mechanical trained person, or you're a biology trained person, or you're a software trained person. Cool. Let's go, let's go work together. Go make this thing happen and, uh, and see where it goes. Yeah, it's, it's

Tim Winkler: 00:38:45

really interesting. We're actually, you know, looking to, uh, have a conversation with, with a couple of folks that are dissecting, you know, a lot of the, the role of like product manager is an interesting role, um, because it really can come from so many different backgrounds, but. You know, within defense tech, you know, this idea that, you know, a lot of folks say maybe, maybe there's like, Oh, we got to have that Silicon Valley background. I mean, you know, it must've come from, it was like a Fang background, but it's really the opposite of what you're looking for. You're looking for somebody who's, who's been in the trenches, somebody who's been on the front lines and can truly attest to, to, you know, that usability of, of a, of a product, if that's what you're referring to, like a warfighter type of product, but. I think it's, it's, it's just something that maybe is, you know, it's, it's misconstrued with what has always been like the norm or, you know, what you associate with great, great talent being out, you know, in Silicon Valley and not to downplay, there's definitely great talent there, but, um, thinking more about the use case of what, what is the product doing and then transitioning that from like folks that are really mission oriented or operationally focused or thing, or these themes that come up when you're talking about. You know, uh, a tech or a product being in the hands of a war fighter, you know, so it's very, very different than, than, you know, maybe this little widget thing that's on an app that, you know, somebody, somebody else's,

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:40:11

but just to push on that, you know, people think warfire military, like we're, we're building stuff to, to like Do kinetic things, things that go boom and that, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a very narrow part of the types of things that are there. It's, it's logistic systems. It's, um, uh, I mean, you, do you think about all the, the service men and women, they eat a lot, so like there's food stuff, there's nutrition, uh, There's, there's tons of technology. So a lot of people kind of get, get, I think themselves into like this box where they say, you know what, I'm just thinking about the kinetic stuff. And then this is where that, again, like Steve Case, Rives of the Rests, uh, grew up outside of Boston doing, doing tech stuff. So I was very cognizant that cool stuff can happen elsewhere. It doesn't just happen in like Silicon Valley or Silicon. Whatever, even though Silicon there's, there's a moniker for Silicon, New Hampshire, something, I don't know what it is, but, uh, Silicon Millyard, but you, you have literally a, a country of, of, of innovators and people who build stuff and make things. And what, what's also interesting is that. The military was used by, by the U S government to export a lot of our expertise. So a number of airports, for example, around the world were constructed by the military, you know, army corps of engineers for as an example. And so you go, go to Iceland, guess what? You're landing on either a British. Manufactured made runway or an American one, depending upon which, which airport you're going to. So like, those are the types of things that are really fascinating to think about. And in the global nature of, of, of how we work, that I think is interesting. And the last thing I want to get to is like, everybody thinks, Oh, you need to have like this fame background, whatever. We literally have one of our portfolio companies gets out. Wants to start a company in, in aviation safety says, I'm not worthy to go start a company. I know what I want to do. I know what I want to build. I know the product. I know how to do it. So he says, I'm, I need to go, go get an MBA from fancy school. And then I need to go work at one of those fangs. And then I can start a company. And I think the advice that, that the people like Steve and myself would have is like, no, no, no. Today, go, go start today because you, you probably can figure it out. And when you look at the backgrounds of, of, of people who have started things, they, they point to their experiences. And sometimes the training or the school or the whatever is that, or the company they work for is that, but a lot of times it's, Hey, I met this other person and we decided that we want to go tackle this problem. We wanted to solve it. We were on this mission together and let's go, let's go figure it out. And those are the best

Mike Gruen: 00:42:48

stories. And those are the best founders. Yeah. I mean, we've had a number of people on from fangs who've gone off to start companies and things like that. I think what's interesting is, um, your experience at that point, they've already made it the big fangs. They're, they're there. They have all of these things, all these processes that are really designed around being who they are. These giant things that don't necessarily, if you weren't there in the early days, you don't, you know, you're not actually getting that benefit that you think you're going to get. And I totally agree. I think the. The experience you're, uh, you know, a lot of them was, yeah, then we went and started our company and we were amazed at all of the things we didn't have that we were just spoiled when we, when we support teams galore, right, right, right. Like, I had, oh, I had a platform team that was helping all the engineers. Like, I didn't like, this is all stuff that we had to like, figure out. And it's like, yeah, it's almost counterproductive because then you start building things like, oh, well, we had this at such and such. So we should start working on that. And it's like, no, no, no, that's just a distraction. Figure out how to get to mission, how to get. Your product, get to value, so on and so forth. And so, um, I do think that I tend to agree the whole, like, go work at some large company, it's got some benefits. I'm not going to dismiss that, but at the same time, don't let that be your barrier. If you have a good idea, now's the time. No, I mean, go ahead.

Steve Chang: 00:44:04

Yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:44:05

I was just going to say, Steve, um, you know, you want to put a bow on it before we, we transitioned to the final segment. Some, uh, some final words from you.

Steve Chang: 00:44:13

Yeah, I mean, we hit a lot of great things there. I mean, I was just going to keep riffing on that last point, which is. Um, from a founder's perspective, you know, I, like I went, um, I, I did an MBA at Wharton as I was leaving the military and, you know, great education and there's a lot of skills in there that'll be useful to me. But, you know, the things that are useful to me right now as a founder, you know, getting from like negative three to zero, let alone zero to one. Right. Um, you know, Jeremy met me at like negative five, but, um, so, but yeah, it's, you know, I think. I think there are a lot of lessons learned, um, in the military, a lot of frameworks, a lot of, you know, different problems that people had to solve that, uh, we draw from and, you know, just trying to amplify that story, right? You know, they're every single veterans sort of got that, um, unique experience that they, they drew from that they had. Um, and, you know, this big machine is, is printing a lot of great quality. Um, and then they, they put them out in the real world and they get a lot of great experience that, you know, um, offers unique value to a lot of places. And so, you know, we're, our mission is like all day. What I do is just talk to employers about how to, how to tap into that, how to, you know, leverage it and get the most out of it. So. Um, you know, I appreciate the chance to sort of just talk about, you know, we, we love veterans, you know, obviously, you know, I'm, I'm one of them, but, you know, it's, it's gotta be more than just, uh, we hard veterans on your website kind of thing. This is a, this is a way to win. And so.

Tim Winkler: 00:45:50

Yeah, well, appreciate all the work you're doing for it. And, you know, as a, as a fellow recruiter, God bless you because it is not easy dealing with people all day. Um, and, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's really, you know, I, I could talk with you for hours. I remember on our discovery calls, it's really fascinated about, you know, military recruiting in general and, you know, the trends of it, right. Because, you know, how is the military perceived and how that changes as the global climate's kind of like in a. You know, a whirlwind right now, you know, there's a lot of things that feel like they're in disarray, you know, is that, how's that impacting recruiting, you know, is it, are people shying away or are they, you know, feeling really, you know, patriotic about it, you know, it's, it's a, it's a fascinating space. And so taking all of that experience and how you. Transform that into, uh, you know, corporate recruiting is, uh, just, just a really interesting use case, in my opinion. So we'll have to have a, we'll have to have a, a virtual drink for that one. We'll do a virtual drink and talk more about it. Um, with. Go ahead. Go ahead, Steve. With breakfast. Yeah. Sorry. Jeremy, you can bring the pancakes and the syrup and we'll, we'll still, yeah, we'll still do it. There is a

Mike Gruen: 00:47:05

maple syrup bourbon out there.

Tim Winkler: 00:47:06

It's true. It sounds delicious. If it's from New

Mike Gruen: 00:47:11

Hampshire. It is

Tim Winkler: 00:47:11

delicious. Um, awesome. Well, that was a good discussion and I'm sure there's, you know, a lot of followups that we can, that we can have on the topic, but I do want to, Wrap it up and, and kind of transition us into our final segment. Um, the, uh, five second scramble. So a couple of quick fun, you know, rapid fire Q and a questions here. Uh, Mike, you're gonna lead it off to, uh, uh, to Jeremy and then I'll, I'll close it out, uh, with Steve. Sounds

Mike Gruen: 00:47:41

good. All right. Uh, you ready, Jeremy? I'm ready. Let's go. All right. All right. Uh, what's your favorite stage startup to invest in early stage? Uh, any particular reason just quick. Oh, cause they can go anywhere. You can't predict how they're going to end. Awesome. Uh, what's the biggest challenge facing startup founders, uh, throughout for the rest of the year through 2024,

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:48:07

how fast to go, uh, go step on the pedal, spend a lot or spend a little bit. That's, that's tough.

Mike Gruen: 00:48:15

Uh, what's your favorite part about the culture at North, uh, new North ventures?

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:48:21

Uh, a lot of things we talked about, team based, a lot of different skills, younger, older, different perspectives, constant intellectual challenge.

Mike Gruen: 00:48:30

What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:48:34

Oh man, uh, invest in your team and let your team support you. Like it's, it's

Mike Gruen: 00:48:40

virtuous circle. Nice. Uh, if you could have a one hour mentor session with any tech giant, who would it be?

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:48:49

Man, that one's a tough one. Uh, I think of composite sketches so much. Um, and there's obviously the more material people. Uh, of, of like your Steve jobs is in the like, but I'm, I'm, you know, the Jim Collins and the, and the DHH is, uh, of the world. I don't know. I'd, I'd have, I'd want five minute, like micro set, micro segments with a bunch of people. That's awesome.

Mike Gruen: 00:49:13

Um, I like that you use the word mercurial. Uh, I think it's accurate for them. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh, what was your childhood dream job? A chemist. Awesome. Uh, I understand you have a pilot's license. I do. What's your favorite airplane to fly?

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:49:35

Uh, I mean, the one that you're flying in, they're all different. They all have trade offs. I love, I love seaplane flying, but it's, it's, unless it's, uh, unless you're going for permission of fun. Which is perfectly great. Uh, it's, they're not as practical as they could, as other planes are.

Tim Winkler: 00:49:51

You ever done a, you know, the barrel roll. Is that, is that a thing? Uh, that's a thing. Yeah.

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:49:56

I'm familiar with some aerobatics on purpose. Favorite airplane I've ever been in was a, was a P 51 Mustang. That

Mike Gruen: 00:50:08

was cool. Wow. That's pretty cool. That's pretty sick. Uh, what's something you hate to do, but are really good at

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:50:16

spreadsheets? I mean, the math, the math runs a lot of business and, and you gotta, you gotta represent

Mike Gruen: 00:50:23

ice. That's a solid answer. Uh, what's a charity or corporate philanthropy? Uh,

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:50:33

there's so many, I mean, people that are doing, uh, workforce stuff. So educations are all, uh, five, one C threes are all not for profits. Um, third option foundation is, is a, is a, is a one that we, uh, we support and care for on our foundation. I mean, there's, there's a bunch of, a bunch of good stuff.

Mike Gruen: 00:50:52

All right. Last one. If you could instantly become an expert in something, what it would it be? So this year

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:50:58

I am working on getting into welding. And man, that is a humbling, humbling activity. I mean, I, you know, five, 10 hours in and like, Whoa, it's, it's, it's pretty impressive with the, with like the stuff on YouTube where you're watching like, man, that looks good. And hopefully we'll get there someday. What are you working on? You got a little, little piece you're working on? Yeah, I made a ship, a little artistic ship. I'm going to make a fish tank for my kids. Uh, because my, my oldest and middle there, uh, uh, son and daughter, they're, they're, they're picking up some welding stuff too. So we're doing a fish tank first. And then I think the middle of the daughter loves different mediums. So she's going to go, she's going to be off, off

Mike Gruen: 00:51:39

on a tear. Oh, that's awesome. Welding is going to be a good skill to have in the zombie apocalypse. So, uh,

Tim Winkler: 00:51:48

I'm

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:51:48

going to have electronics flying and welding.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:52

Yeah, I'm going to bunker down with you, Jeremy. It sounds like you got it. You got a game plan. Uh, good stuff. All right. Let's, uh, let's close it out. Steve, are you ready? Uh, I think so. Let's go for it. All right. Uh, explain headlamp to me as if I were a five year old.

Steve Chang: 00:52:10

We help

Tim Winkler: 00:52:11

veterans

Steve Chang: 00:52:11

find

Tim Winkler: 00:52:11

jobs. That's simply put, um, what's your favorite part about being a founder of your own company?

Steve Chang: 00:52:20

Oh, I mean, uh, yeah, five seconds is not enough time, but, um, problem solving, you know, like just being the ability to just be so mission focused, you know, and, and, you know, choosing the problem and choosing the way you're going to solve it. Like that's just, that's just gold for me. That's it's great feeling. Describe the culture at headlamp. Headlamp is man, uh, you know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm trained by some great leaders, uh, from special operations. And so we're, you know, we've got a culture of, um, accountability. We've got a culture of, you know, decentralized till, till I feel uncomfortable, um, empowerment, you know, it's all about, uh, you know, trusting your teammates and, and empowering them. So. That's where we're at.

Tim Winkler: 00:53:08

What can folks be most excited about with Headlamp in the next 12 months?

Steve Chang: 00:53:13

Just massive growth. I mean, we're, we're, we're taking off, um, you know, providing all sorts of, uh, opportunities. You know, there'll be some technology that'll improve things for, you know, different interfaces, but, um, just the number of opportunities and the great stories we'll be creating.

Tim Winkler: 00:53:30

What's one of the greatest traits that the military built in you transitioning into civilian life?

Steve Chang: 00:53:37

Uh, yeah, for me, you know, I, this might say something about my career, but resilience, like learning how to fail and just keep on going and pick yourself up. So,

Tim Winkler: 00:53:48

Well said, uh, who is a mentor in your life that has greatly influenced your professional career?

Steve Chang: 00:53:56

Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I talked about some of the leaders. I mean, um, You know, Brian Fenton, who's, uh, you know, he's the general at, uh, at U. S. Special Operations Command. Yeah, he's the mentor to so many folks, but, um, I probably learned the most, but I spent most of my professional life with them. So learn quite a bit from guys like him. So it's been great. Very

Tim Winkler: 00:54:21

cool. What is a, an app on your phone that you can't live without?

Steve Chang: 00:54:27

Uh, the premier league fantasy, uh, app. I mean, I'm on there probably more than anything else, you know, to include, uh, email and work stuff. Now, I mean, yeah, that, that's, that's my, my fun time. What

Tim Winkler: 00:54:43

is the most adventurous thing that you've ever done?

Steve Chang: 00:54:47

Most adventurous thing. I mean, I like I've done all sorts of stuff sometimes out of my will. Um, man, I just love exploring, you know, um, just not knowing what where we're headed and where we're going and not being prepared for it. You know, just just figure it out as you go. So, like, that's I guess that's me. Have you ever flown with Jeremy? I have, yeah, you know, I'm free fall qualified. So I felt pretty safe.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:15

That's

Steve Chang: 00:55:18

good to hear. That was the comfort

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:55:19

level that you had. Love it.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:22

So

Jeremy Hitchcock: 00:55:23

fun. I was up there, you know, I

Tim Winkler: 00:55:25

kept it level. That's great. What, what is a charity or a

Steve Chang: 00:55:31

corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you? Uh, I mean, uh, honor foundation, Jeremy mentioned that great organization doing great things for a lot of people in my old community, uh, you know, serving special operations, uh, uh, commit foundations, you know, is another one out there that, um, you know, serves the people that I served with. And so, yeah, always near and dear. What was your dream job as a kid dream job? I mean, actually, there was a fighter pilot. I hate to say it. You know, I wanted to be a fighter pilot at 1 point. Uh, yeah, I had a fascination with model airplanes and, you know, all that when I was younger. And then then I wanted to be a physicist and I did that for a little bit. Yeah, that's not quite when I was a kid. I was, you know, going into college, but. Who knows how things will turn out.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:21

All right. We're going to close it on a high note here. What is the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed?

Steve Chang: 00:56:30

Rolling your jeans. That was like going way back. That's just like ridiculous, but we all did it. It may be, yeah, like it might've made it. Yeah. I mean, that's just.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:42

Did they call? Did they call that pegging your jeans? Is that like when you rolled up it was like a special way to hold it?

Steve Chang: 00:56:48

Yeah. You had to do it.

Mike Gruen: 00:56:49

Yeah. That might have been the name for it, but yeah, I don't know that I knew that at the time that I was doing it either. Yes.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:59

They're all good stuff. Uh, all right. Uh, successful, uh, round of, uh, Q and a thanks guys. It's, uh, it's been a pleasure having you all share your, your journey and your experiences with us and, you know, fighting for a good cause here with the, with veterans transitioning. So thanks for all that you do. And thanks for joining us on the pod. Great. Thanks so much.