What I Learned When My Startup Got Acquired | The Pair Program Ep20

Intro/Outro: 00:00:05

Welcome

Tim: 00:00:05

to the Pair program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad, and I'm your

Brian: 00:00:15

other host, Mike Gruin.

Tim: 00:00:17

Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth. What's up everyone? Uh, we are back for another episode of the Pair Program. I am your host, Tim Winkler Company by my co-host Mike Gruin. Mike got a question for you, All right. Do you own Croc?

Brian: 00:00:45

I do not. I am,

Mike: 00:00:47

I am anti

Tim: 00:00:48

crock. Not a crock guy. Huh? Not a guy you like hate them. I

Mike: 00:00:51

wouldn't say I hate them. I'm gonna probably buy some for my kids and stuff, but no, I, I'm not, I'm not a crock guy. Are you a crock guy?

Tim: 00:00:58

Yeah. Not really. But

Mike: 00:01:00

don't let my judgment impact

Troy: 00:01:02

your Well, so the

Tim: 00:01:03

reason I bring, the reason I bring it up, and I think it's interesting that you brought up that you're, you're getting your kids some, is that, you know, we've had some debates here at Hatch about this, and there seems to be like a clear divide on Crocs. I was reading, uh, an article this morning about this, where they took the top 10 most liked brands by like Gen Z and then the top 10 most liked brands by millennials. And then as part of that study, what they did is they, they compared the widest favorability differences between the Gen Z and the millennials. And what do you think was in the top three? Clearly, Crocs, CROs, Crocs, discord, and TikTok actually were the, the top three. I just think it's interesting because, you know, cracks have been around for years, but now, you know, younger folks are coming in and, and loving them. And I think they said it, they pointed to like a big marketing spiel. Like, you know, they get like musicians or K ffc to come out and do these like special releases I the shoes. So it's interesting

Mike: 00:02:00

cause I'm, I'm Gen X I wanna make, make it very clear,

Tim: 00:02:03

I'm not a millennial. Clear. He's very old, uh, famous. I am very old.

Mike: 00:02:07

Uh, and I am Gen X. But it's funny cuz I associate Crocs with my dad. So how about that? Oh yeah, my dad,

Troy: 00:02:13

my dad wears a lot of Crocs. Yeah, I'm like coming, like now I'm always seeing these new ones called Natives that are like the like new Crocs competitor. Cause like my two year old and all of her friends all have natives similar. They're like rubber and like sort of like. Open air kind of. Right. They look a little bit more like a Crocs. Oh, sorry. They look a little bit more like a normal shoe Yeah. A little as much as a rubber shoe full of holes. Can I think

Tim: 00:02:39

Ryan? Ryan, what about you, man? Are youre, you a CROs guy? Uh,

Brian: 00:02:42

no. I, I ha I own a pair of Crocs, but they're just Crocs branded flip flops. They're very, they're very comfortable. But yeah, so I think they're just, they're extending their, their product line beyond just rubber holes. Yeah.

Tim: 00:02:53

That's widely debated topics, so I'm glad we, we covered. Yeah, Cool. Um, alright, well let's, um, let's give the listeners a little bit of a heads up on today's episode. So today we are going to be covering a topic center around startup acquisitions and specifically, you know, when a, when a company is acquired and what are the ripple effects that, that maybe take place on, you know, the employees and the team members. All the way at the executive level, uh, leadership level, all the way down to entry level, junior level, uh, everything in between. So, um, you know, per usual, we, we have two excellent guests here joining us, both of which are, are well versed on the topic. Uh, both have experienced acquisitions in different capacities, so I'm confident that they'll bring some, some insight, um, uh, to our discussion. And, uh, Troy and Brian, thanks for spending time with us on the PAIR program.

Brian: 00:03:45

Thanks for having us. Of course. Yeah. Glad to.

Tim: 00:03:47

Excellent. Uh, all right, so, you know, before we, we get into the, uh, the meat of the discussion, we like to kick things off with a fun segment that we call Pair me up. Pair me up. Here's where we kind of go around the room. We shout out a complimentary pairing. Mike ut us off. Uh, what, what do you got today? So, now, now

Mike: 00:04:05

I've cracked on my head, but I'm, I'll still resist letter. Um, but. So last, last time we recorded, we were talking about company culture. So that got me thinking about essentially toxic companies and regret, uh, and sort of sticking around for longer. Have, you know, I I, I pride myself on like perseverance and grit and like, we can, we can make this better. And, uh, sort of not recognizing when it's time to just sort. Move on. So, uh, so there's, there's my, uh, there's my pairing really uplifting, uh,

Tim: 00:04:36

Would you like luck to call any companies out? Uh, specifically? No. I mean, I

Mike: 00:04:39

think they know who they're

Tim: 00:04:43

That's great. Yeah. I think, uh, that could play well into, uh, maybe some today's topic, who knows? Um, but, um, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll jump in. So my pairing today is, um, stoicism and entrepre. And I think, um, you know, for, maybe for those that aren't familiar with stoic philosophy, it's teachings from like ancient Greek philosophers like Marcus Aurelius. And these are, uh, teachings that are kind of designed to make, make you more resilient or a happier person. Put up longer with toxic culture Yeah, that's right. Embrace toxic culture and Crocs and, um, but so, so one of the, uh, yeah, one of my morning routines anyways is I, uh, read this, uh, book. You know, they have all these daily passages called the Daily Stoic, uh, author, great authors name's Ryan Holladay. And he, you know, a lot of folks consider him as like a modern, stoic, but it provides this daily passage and then you kind of pull from it, you know, some exercises for the. And I think the reason that I relate this to entrepreneurship is that, you know, a lot of the principles of stoicism, or like the behaviors that I believe, um, entrepreneurs need, uh, for the most part to kinda like, sustain and, and continue down this journey of ups and downs and, you know, eventually get to the other side of as, as successful. Um, and like one of the examples I'll, I'll pull out is that when they tap into this thing, uh, focus on more about what you can control. Stop worrying about what you can't control. And so obviously at Hatch anyways, you know, our business being in the recruiting space is just, there's so many, you know, macro economics that are out of our control that play into whether or not we might have an an excellent year or a a terrible year. And I think the last couple of years actually have been a really. You know, obvious reflection of this. Um, and so I'd say like, as a leader, you know, I've tried to channel a lot of that stress and frustration and worry. And instead of focusing on what we can contr, we, we can't control, focus on what we can control as a company and have that kind of be my theme, um, uh, and my messaging and waste on my team. So anyways, that's my long-winded answer, uh, entrepreneurship and, uh, stoicism on, on

Mike: 00:07:01

that note about, um, I can't help myself on the note of. Worrying about stress that you can't control or stressing about the things you can't control. I think one of the things that people don't realize that they can control are their reactions to those things. Mm-hmm. And so focusing really on the, on your, on how you react to the things beyond your control is within your control. So

Tim: 00:07:23

focus more on that. Absolutely. Cool. Um, all right. Yeah. Let's, let's, let's, uh, pass it around to, uh, to our guest. Uh, Brian, why don't you give us a quick intro and, and tell us your pair.

Brian: 00:07:35

Yeah, so I'm Brian Redford. I'm the ceo@riskzero.com. It's a zero Knowledge, cryptography, blockchain related startup. Um, uh, my last company was acquired by Intel about four years ago, and that was Vertex ai, which is into AI compilation technology. My pairing kind of related to Tim's, I guess, uh, two things that go together. Like a couple hours in a sauna and a massage. I think it's, uh, as a, as a business leader, you know, it's important to, to find time to, you know, let go of those things that you can't control. And frustrations, frustrations with the things you can try, try to get in a lot of time for calming down. Yeah,

Tim: 00:08:18

I love that. Nice. I think that needs to be a standard benefit at this point. Yeah, pretty much. It is true though, like massages, like everybody, you know, look, they, they're, they're certainly expensive, but you know, if you, if you relate it to like a health benefit, you know, what is the, you know, what is that worth to you if you did one a month? Um, you know, I, I, I'm trying to be better at that, but it's, you know, it's the type of thing where it's like getting over the mental block of like, oh, that's like a, that's like a gift. Like you don't just go and do like a monthly massage or, um, long, short is, I think we need to be doing daily, weekly massages at this point. Cool. All right. Uh, Troy, uh, intro and, and appearing. Yeah.

Troy: 00:08:59

I'm, uh, Troy Crosby. I'm, uh, momentarily joining Patient IQ as, uh, their director of engineering. They're helping like, uh, big players in the healthcare space orient their practices and decision making around patient health outcomes. Um, in the past I was a engineering leader at a small CRM for real estate startup called, actually, uh, acquired by Compass Big, uh, real estate broker. And, uh, I'll go really lighthearted for my pairing. Uh, I, I would've said chips and salsa, which is just a, like, weakness snack of mine, except for I've just like gone past the salsa and just gone straight to eating chips with hot sauce straight. And that's just like, that's probably like terrible, right? But like, I just have chips and hot sauce cravings. Multiple nights a week at like 9:00 PM probably like great for like heartburn and sleeping, but I can't help myself.

Brian: 00:09:52

There's

Mike: 00:09:52

another pairing. Heartburn and

Brian: 00:09:53

sleeping

Troy: 00:09:54

Yeah, I got two for one there.

Mike: 00:09:59

All right. I thought we'd actually make it a whole, uh, uh, one, one full round without any food. I'm glad we didn't. That was good. We, we always have at least some food in there. That's good.

Tim: 00:10:07

Is there like a, uh, like a hot sauce that you, you crave, uh, on a chip or is it, do you like mixing it up each time?

Troy: 00:10:13

Uh, everything like Yellowbird makes is like a really good brand. They don't, they don't, don't have like crazy things, like relatively basic, but they're just like really good basic hot sauces. Yeah. Like, they have like a really good habanero and like they have their own version of a sriracha that's just like better than sriracha.

Tim: 00:10:28

Mm. Nice. Yeah. A big, uh, Uh, fans. So that's a good one. Good one. Yeah. Good on. Good on a chip. Toasty. Do chips. All right. Well, um, cool. I think that's, uh, that kind of wraps that up. Um, uh, let's, let's dive into the, the heart of the discussion here. So, as I mentioned, you know, we're gonna be talking, um, about post-acquisition expectations, and we, we did strategically choose our guest here, uh, you know, given their specific experience and acquisitions and also like their unique perspectives on the topic. For example, Brian, you sat in the executive seat as a CTO and co-founder, um, you know, for, for a small startup, uh, was acquired by a large tech company and then Troy, you know, you served in the seat as an engineering manager. Um, so really kind of seeing it from that middle management layer of a startup, uh, that was acquired. And so I think we have a great opportunity here to, you know, really peel the onion back on the scenario and. How it impacts folks across the board. So Brian, let's, let's actually start with you on this. And can you, uh, shed some light as a, a founder, C-suite and a startup that is soon to be acquired, you know, how do you begin to approach this topic with, you know, maybe your peers, you know, the, the management layer and, and others within the company. And then, uh, we can jump to you Troy, afterwards

Brian: 00:11:45

and. Yeah, I guess it, uh, it sort of depends on where you're at. Where we were at was running out of money, so I think everybody sort of knew that that was the case. And we, you know, we ended up, uh, well, we tried to raise money for a bit, realized we probably just need to, to exit the market and started. Looking for a buyer, but actually realized that that was probably not gonna be super effective. We had gotten a sort of an early offer from Intel, but then they went, they went quiet, and um, so we ended up hiring a consultant to help us. So there was, uh, a lot of discussion about whether we, you know, wanted to ditch their very high fee in the event that we did get acquired. But, um, I think it was the right call. Yeah, in our case it was, it was a bit, a bit of desperation. It's not a situation you wanna end up in, I don't think. But you know, it had a reasonably happy ending. So, um, yeah.

Tim: 00:12:42

What was the, how, how big was Vertex at this

Brian: 00:12:44

time? It's only 10 people. So it was a pretty small company. Yeah.

Tim: 00:12:48

Okay. And how long were you guys operating before it went to an acquisition? Uh, about two

Brian: 00:12:53

years. Yeah.

Tim: 00:12:54

Okay. And so, uh, and we'll, we'll dissect that a little bit more, but Troy, your, your most recent experience, you know, was working for a startup base in the DC area. So a little shout out there, uh, a little d dc startup, love to contextually that was acquired by Compass. Um, can you, uh, provide context on what your role was at contextually leading up to the acquisition and the size of the team and, and think how that played out?

undefined: 00:13:20

Yeah.

Troy: 00:13:20

I mean, is a little bit bigger. It was like maybe 50, 60 people. and um, I dunno how to say, running outta money, but like it was transitioning to sort of thinking about raising a new round of funding, um, or kind of had been courting an acquisition. Um, but like, you know, the question of like, how do you broach this conversation with the team? Uh, that definitely played out a lot for us cuz it's like, I think acquisitions are always like some degree of bittersweet, right? Like, uh, teams usually like, you know, where they're working and like the people they work with. And so it's like the acquisition is a big, like, wrench throwing in the equation. It's like, what do we know about this company? Am I gonna like working there as much? Should, like, what's their culture like? What's their like, am I gonna be working on something totally different? Do I wanna work on that? Um, so it's really, really easy to like, for people to get sucked into that. But, uh, I remember like a big thing that I was trying to drive home for folks was like, you're working a startup. Like, uh, you know, we're not just there to like code or design, but. Kind of our goal is like create business value, like from thin air, right? It's like that's why you work at a startup, like, wow, you're creating something new if you get acquired, like you succeeded, right? It's like, to some degree, that's like a mark of success, badge of honor. And so, uh, totally, it's like, it's like spend some time like kind of celebrating the win, uh, before you start, like, you know, trying to think through all the new ramifications of the new place. Like, uh, that's something to be really proud of. Uh, certainly, you know, there is like new territory then it has to get explored. You wanna spend time with a team like being positive about, you know, like what you've all

Brian: 00:14:49

achieved too. Yeah,

Tim: 00:14:51

for sure. I, I, I'm curious on, on if there were differences here between, uh, the, the vertex and story with regards to, you know, did they, you know, did you retain your brand and, uh, some of those, some of those items that, um, you know, are, are special to you as a company? Or was it a, a, a strategy of like quickly dissolve everything, you're now the new company and. You know, vertex for example. Right. Uh, did you have a chance to kind of, did they, did they care to keep Vertex as like, you know, the, a product brand or anything within Intel or what was the strategy there? Yeah, so

Brian: 00:15:27

we had an open source project that I think was mostly what Vertex was known for, which is still somewhat live flat ml. And so intech Intel did leave that alive, although they didn't really continue to invest in it, uh, at least initially. We ended up later going back and sort of building a new version. But the Vertex AI brand, actually, they just totally let the domain expire. Which is funny because Google now has a product called Vertex ai. So Classic, it was a good name.

Tim: 00:15:56

Yeah. What about you, Troy? How, how long did, uh, contextually? Um,

Troy: 00:16:00

kinda similar, like we kept that old product offering around, but it was like an independent product line and it wasn't what our team then worked on. Like our team then worked on Compass stuff and the old product was. Independent and left to linger for a while. It's, it's gone now, but it took two and a half, three years before it eventually wound that down. Um, and so like, yeah, the brand existed, but we stopped like, recruiting under that brand name. We stopped, you know, like, you know, Tim, you mentioned like being in DC we stopped sort of like advertising, like a presence in DC under that brand name, you know, to, so you wanna sort of turn a corner and, and adopt, you know, the, uh, think of yourself as employees of your, your new, new company, not your old one. It did. Um, that might be an interesting segue, like that raised some challenging, um, things in the recruiting space. It was like we joined Compass and then pretty immediately were told like, hey, like, you know, go grow your team by like 35% in the next six months. Like, just go start hiring. And, um, there's just like you. We, uh, had some recognition in DC with our old company, and so we could sort of pull on that brand recognition a little bit, but like we're recruiting for a new company. Um, but there's like, people knew some of us and we would, you know, have pitches like, hey, like we're the contextually team now at Compass. And people sort of knew like, oh, like that, that group is a good culture. They knew us. Um, but we, we had definitely had a few misfires. It was like people go through the interview process and they. Who am I interviewing for? Am I interviewing for this old company or this new company? Like we kind of had to like adjust a little and realize like more heavily change our branding and our messaging. Um, and I think like probably both companies had like strengths that we could pull on in the recruiting space, but we had to sort of realized that and it took a few months to think like, you know, yeah,

Brian: 00:17:54

that's an interesting. We sort of had a at at Intel. Um, well, you know, in theory we were supposed to grow our team by like 20 people, but very shortly after we got acquired, they did an external hiring freeze. And our headcount got slashed quite a bit, but we still ended up probably doubling the size of our team. But we could only like recruit internally. So we were actually in a pretty good space because Intel is such a huge company, and we did have like sort of the exciting AI startup that got acquired into Intel Cache. So we were actually able to get quite a, a lot of very high quality internal talent.

Tim: 00:18:32

Yeah, I think it's interesting when you think about, you know, you know, everybody joined, um, a startup for certain reasons, and, you know, the, uh, the, the reality is that you. A lot of those reasons are gonna change. And so, you know, it's almost like, cause I think there's two things to look at here. There's one that's recruiting, uh, but then there's talent retention. So it's like, okay, well, you know, you joined contextually, you've been there for a year and you know, they get acquired and, and you know, your goal was to, to work with a company that was under a hundred and headcount for the next three years, or what, what have you. Well, now that's changed and now you're working with a, you know, a, a large, uh, a large company. You know, where did you value that in terms of, you know, what you were looking for in your, you know, short to to long-term goals versus what just got thrown on you? Um, and then, you know, if you had to prioritize that, then you know, that probably plays into, well, am I gonna stick around or am I going to, to move on? Yeah, you

Troy: 00:19:27

definitely have some people who like, based on what they were there for, like could sort of think relatively soon. Like, this might not be for. I think a lot of times it's like the bit, the purchasing company, you know, incentivizes people through equities to stick around for some vesting cliff or something like that, which, you know, happened for us. So we had really good, um, you know, retained our team for, for quite a while. Um, you know, eventually that started to change, but, um, I think like something that's kind of really unique though is like, usually you join a new company as an individual and you're like really lost, right? You're like, you have so much to figure out. Like it is really unique to join a company as a. Oh, wow. I get to join a company with a whole bunch of people I already know. Right. We are bringing some like, obviously desirable knowledge to the table that you were required for. Like, that is kinda interesting. Like you get a ramp up together, compare notes together. So, uh, you know, it's like, that's something that you almost don't think about, but it's like gets called out. It's like, oh, wow. Yeah, this is, this is an opportunity worth me. Like really, you know, going for, there's maybe a downside to that too, right? Like, you join me, the whole group. You might like gossip a little bit. You could very easily like critique your purchasing company. Yeah, Cause like you had this whole crew that happens. So you have to be careful there with like some tribalism you can definitely like sneak in.

Brian: 00:20:43

Um, but yeah, I think that was like a positive aspect of the acquisition is, you know, we weren't, our team wasn't like immediately you dissolved into some other team. We did get reorged a bunch of times and tossed around, but until it was, you know, struggling to figure out it's AI strategy, it. In its entirety, but you know, we had, uh, like we were basically the only engineering team in Seattle, so we kind of just moved into much nicer offices and still had roughly the same team and kept, got to keep kind of growing it. Although we weren't really in control of our own destiny at all anymore. We were,

Troy: 00:21:16

we were, we were the only engineering team in DC and then we'd like host other teams coming down from New York to like visit us in our space. And that was kinda like a cool social kinda aspect.

Tim: 00:21:28

What's the messaging like? You know, cuz I'll be honest if I'm, if I'm taking this from the recruiting perspective here, um, whenever a company gets acquired, they go into a, a, a channel in our slack that puts them on, on high visibility that says there's a good chance that there's gonna be folks here that aren't gonna be happy in the next couple of months. And that's just the reality. Some people will love it and some people, like, again, it goes back to the point, like, that's not what I signed up for. And, and here we. But what's the, uh, messaging like, you know, uh, for, for you Troy, like with, with the team in terms of, you know, how do I know that my role's secure? Like, you know, how transparent are they with you? Like, tell me about that messaging. Cause I think that plays a part into like, am I probing now or am I not? Well, it kind of goes back to

Troy: 00:22:08

Mike saying like, these different and acquisitions and like in our case, um, they kind of wanted a bunch of our technology and we had like proven to be like a pretty lean customer-centric startup in the real estate space. and they were really wanting more customer centricity and they're like, oh, these are experts in this. And so like they, you know, we were really highly desired. So I didn't think there was much concern about retention. Um, but uh, you know, I think messaging was a little bit vague to be honest. I think like in our case, we joined in exactly what we should be starting to work on right away on day one was pretty unclear. number of months to really like get our feet under us. Um, but during that time, like we just like really leaned into our social bonds a lot, right? So like, Hey, look, we're all together. Let's hang out. Let's do a few more happy hours. Let's try and bridge the gaps with other groups. Uh, you know, like celebrate the wins we can as, as a mm-hmm. even if like, our normal workflow is like a little bit disrupted right now. Like definitely we're some like lighter work weeks for sure. For a

Brian: 00:23:10

month or two. Interesting. We, uh, yeah, in our case it. Sort of ahire sort of technological acquisition. You know, they wanted us to basically take our technology and our experience and the team and, and apply it to a sort of new domain, which is hardware, software, co-design. So basically building compilers for chips that didn't exist yet to help explore the, the sort of space of chips you might build. So it's actually pretty exciting from a technological perspective and from a like challenge. Uh, so the team you. Pretty much embraced it and, and was excited about the opportunity to, to do this. However, um, the chip we were working on got canceled a couple months after we started immediately like, like, no, you can't take a break. You need to like, this product's already behind. So it's like, sell the company. And you, we were like in the trenches. Um, and then of course it didn't matter. So that was, that was a bit disheartening. But you know, for a bit there, it did seem like, you know, we had a. Charter and, um, and the team did really embrace it. So we actually, we actually didn't lose anyone except for our, our ceo.

Troy: 00:24:18

But what was like the pivot at that point when, like, what you were working on got, you know, like a huge rens thrown in it? Like what, what came next? Especially, how did team adapt

Brian: 00:24:26

for that? Well, they, they canceled that chip in favor of a, the next version of that chip. It was, honestly, it went back and forth, uh, like all over

Troy: 00:24:34

the place. So it was like a pretty logical transition. Yeah, and then we

Brian: 00:24:38

started working more on what we honestly like, they're like, well, we actually do need some compiler technology. So we actually kinda pivoted back to what we were working on in the first place. We're like, see, you should have just embraced this in the first place, but didn't happen.

Troy: 00:24:52

So yeah, you, we found that like, I mean, speaking of like, you know, we had some light work weeks when it first happened. Like, you know, we were in like a rhythm where like product and design and engineering, you know, would always work really, really. and then when we suddenly weren't sure exactly what to work on next. I think somewhere where we mistepped and like, if I could do it again, it would be different, is I'd like immediately decouple product and engineering and design and say, Hey, look like we don't know exactly what we're doing for the next month. Each of these disciplines like go do what makes sense for your discipline. For, for like ramping up and backlog and it might be different. Mm-hmm. like maybe engineering works on debt for a month. Maybe design goes in like figures X, y, Z out for a month, you know? We should kind of like the, the, the best optimal move for each of those groups may be different. Totally. Even though like normally it's very

Brian: 00:25:42

tightly coupled. Yeah. I think we only had two groups, engineering and, and business. And there's only one person in the business group and that was a CEO and he moved on.

Troy: 00:25:51

So it's like the product and business people, I think like had to really adapt. They're like, You know, like normally you like filters for like understanding the right signal through all the noise. Like what's the most important thing? Like what, you know, what's the sort of lay of land? And like that equation in their head was like totally reset. It was like they had to figure out like, well what, what is the most valuable thing for us to be working on next? And it's like, took them a while to like sort of reassess the landscape again.

Brian: 00:26:15

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I ended up eventually managing, uh, like 50 person team at, at Intel, but that was also quite tumultuous and I don't know that it was exactly what, you know, I signed up to do, but, um, that's, that's a good point. And I think it's important if you end up in a big company to, we initially tried to sort of stay out of politics and the fray mm-hmm. and you dive, I think you do that, uh, at your own peril. Like if you're gonna be somewhere for three years, you should just embrace it, get in there and really.

Troy: 00:26:44

Mark. Mark, yeah, definitely had some of that too. It was like, I definitely ended up having a lot of opportunity. There was a VP of engineering who was above me at my previous job and as soon as we joined, he saw another opportunity in Compass and said, oh, I'm gonna go lead that. So he grew into an area and then left another, like a vacuum for me to grow into as well. Um, but I feel like in any acquisitions, like there's kinda that promise of like, Hey, there's gonna be tons of growth opportunity for everyone. Question is. Is it a reality or not? Like it's a really easy thing. Totally. It's a really easy talking point to say. Um, and then also it was almost like the people who are required, like there may maybe some degree of savviness in terms of like, how well do you read the landscape to say, hey, well there is an area for growth, there is an area for growth. Like, how do I position myself for them? Which, you know, like some people like, uh, may pull that off. Some people may have some, some like missteps. It feels a little bit like, uh, you know, a dice roll probably in some

Tim: 00:27:40

cases. And, and I'm trying to put myself in this situation and, and, you know, so let's just say I'm, uh, a junior juniorish person, um, versus, you know, maybe somebody that, that at your level, Troy went during the acquisition. I'm not gonna feel like, I don't know, I, I, I would feel like I almost need to go and tap the folks that are in, you know, in, in my current, you know, startup, uh, to see, you know, what they recommend. I, I might, might be at my, uh, exposure versus trying to find somebody in the new company and I, and feeling like it's just, you know, there's not that level of comfort of, well, I've been working with you, Troy, for a year. um, you know, can you, can you work with me and help me navigate the waters of, of compass, of where I might be able to, uh, excel versus like trying to go find somebody new in Compass that you don't know, you know, from Adam. And, and now the next thing you know is, you know, they're, they, maybe they don't give you the level of attention as they would somebody senior that came in through the acquisition.

Troy: 00:28:37

Yeah. It goes back to that like the unique scenario, like joining as a group like right? A new person at any other company wouldn't have those same dynamics, but it is, uh, definitely. Unique scenario.

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Tim: 00:29:02

salary. You brought up a point and I, and I read a, you know, sat, you pushed an article about this called, UH, 12 Engineering Leadership Lessons for Success after an Acquisi. And it's a great writeup. Uh, we'll actually post it in the show notes. Um, it might be a great writeup.

Troy: 00:29:19

I don't know how, how Well it's aged It was probably like a year or two ago. Well,

Tim: 00:29:23

there I, I found some, some, uh, little golden nuggets in there. And, and I think you, the, the point you make about the, uh, avoiding tribalism is interesting to me. Uh, which essentially kinda like getting away from this thinking in terms of like us and. And so, you know, you pointed out on here as like, as a leader, you know, it's your responsibility to, you know, kind of like nip that in the butt if you feel like it's coming on. Like you're out at a happy hour. And, um, you know, the, the, the topics come, come up about, you know, this is the way it used to be. Now it's this way. Yeah. Trying to steer those conversations away and thinking more about like, well, how, you know, how we work together in, in our new future. Um, H how, how is that? Cuz I always feel like that would be, you know, cause I mean That's right. Even

Troy: 00:30:08

I, it's like I say like, oh, we should do that. But like, I definitely did it right? Like probably impossible pride you, I imagine, right? Like, it was always present for probably quite a while still. So hopefully it's like subtle and lingering. Prominent in our case. Oh, go ahead. I'm just saying hopefully it's like, you know, like a subtle thing and like, but it, it's hard to totally get rid of, you know, it could definitely exist. Without being negative. Like you could still have this concept like, oh yeah, our old team, like, you know, we did this and there could be learnings from that, but like it's so easy for it to devolve into like negative

Brian: 00:30:40

territory. Yeah. I think Intel is such a tribal place and we were acquired into an acquisition which is reorged into another acquisition that was then supposedly the entire AI team and, but then there were a bunch of other AI teams in Intel. So it was basically just like, which, wait, which tribe am I on today? And And who are we trying to, like in the back, inside the company somewhere else? No, it was, it's a pretty, it's a pretty political environment in groups there, so I, I think it's great if you can do it, but sometimes you just have to, you know, figure out who your new tribe is instead,

Troy: 00:31:13

and, yeah. Cause you can't like, do away with a concept of like, groups, right? It's like human nature, like, oh, we're gonna think of ourselves in groups and like mm-hmm. that's perfectly fine. But it's, it's just so easy then for it to like, uh, always be. Maybe nitpick another group, compare it to your group and you know, just the slippery slope.

Tim: 00:31:33

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, um, it's the type of thing where, um, you know, you almost have to do a self-assessment and, and figure out, you know, what are the things that I prioritize and, and, and the op and an opportunity and in a company. And I think what we've seen bigger picture, uh, becoming more and more important to folks. And I think, I don't know if just, you know, post covid, but this has become more and more of a thing. You know, values based, uh, recruiting and, and trying to align with a company that one maybe promotes their, their values and, and seeing how does that align with mine. But then two, like if you're assessing yourself and after this acquisition and the values were the reason that you joined this one company, this new, this new acquiring company, you care less about your, the a value statement, but more like how do we drive profits and everything. That might then lead you down the path of, well, I'm, I already know what that came in high on my ranking. I'm, I'm probably gonna start looking for something here, because this isn't

Brian: 00:32:30

Yeah, that's interesting. I think at, at Intel it's pretty easy to get excited about the Intel product portfolio. You know, it's basically the nerdiest possible aspects of computer science, but the culture there, like especially the software engineering culture really needed some help. And I guess, I, I took it upon myself to try to move the needle. I don't know if I recommend that in all instances, but

Tim: 00:32:54

even if it's not your,

Troy: 00:32:55

like, fundamental like traits of the, like, business and like their mission, but just even like, you know, cultural and process styles within the company. Mm-hmm. it's like I, at least several people that I remember being, um, had been there and uh, you know, said like, you know, I really prefer. Working this way. Um, but Compass tends to work this way and they were kind of debating, you know, like whether or not it felt right for them to be there. And it was like you had to engage in conversations like, okay, well you are having really good growth in this area, so it's really gonna come down to, you know, like, where is your priority? Like, like they're saying is like, is this growth, uh, important enough such that you're okay dealing with that thing? That's like usually not your pre. and you just have to make the choice. Like if it is, then you, you grow for a while and you, you know, despite it. And if it's not, you say like, okay, well you know, you go find a place that does align to that preference. Cause maybe that preference is really important to you. And it's like, it's like kind of fine. I think there's almost a concern amongst groups that get acquired of like, am I kinda like letting people down if I leave or something like that. It's like, should be relatively open that like, look, this is weird. Like this is different. And like we wanna talk about it and people wanna like think about other things. It's a very reasonable thing for people to do.

Brian: 00:34:11

Mm-hmm. And I think as a leader, like moving into an acquisition and, you know, I think that's a good, a good sort of, you should have that orientation, be willing to sort of coach your team in that direction and, and, and not really try to hold onto, you know, what happened in the past. I think it's important to really, you know, coach people in that way and, and, and give people the space to move on if that's what's best for them. Cause that's also gonna be what's best for the team in the long run. Mm-hmm. oh. Yeah, Intel did a great job. Honestly, I think they, uh, in terms of dealing with people very, they're pretty good about that, generally speaking. And it was pretty obvious that, you know, you're required now you're part of Intel family and if you wanna move on any part of Intel or people stay there for 20 years, I guess, for reasons. But, um, so I think Intel had a, yeah, yeah. You know, that's brand. Having a hundred thousand person company, you know, they, they get pretty good at this kind of like, onboarding stuff. So actually we felt really kind of special and they did a really good job of, of making us feel, you know, like important that we were there. Yeah.

Troy: 00:35:13

Yeah. Ours is a little bit different. It was like Compass did really well of making people feel like they had some incentive and they were valued by like, good equity and, you know, You know, to retain people. But I felt on some of the people level, it's not that it was, um, bad, it just wasn't as, that, that sort of wasn't as present. And it, I think more organically fell to middle managers to kind of bridge that

Tim: 00:35:36

gap. Um, Well, to what extent is it also kind of fallen the, the founders that sold and, you know, how much did they care to sell for these reasons versus the money? You know, I think obviously that's a personal question and, and in every circumstances gonna be different, but, you know, for, for example, you know, like, um, you can almost relate it to selling a home, right? You know, you, you lived in a, in a home, grew your family. and you wanna be really selective about who's who your next buyer is, because you don't want them to see the house go to shit. Well, what, you know, what about like the, the, the founder that's like, you know, we, we, we built this thing and we're, everybody's so passionate about it, you know, really being diligent and like, the acquiring company needs to make sure, like, this isn't all just follow the wayside or, or how do I prioritize that? And, and, you know, working. Whatever financial firms to say like, these are my top important things, you know, for, from an acquisition. I don't, I don't know how much that goes into, into it or not, but, you know, that, that seems like it's kind of top of mind for me If I was, you know, wondering what my, my founding team was, was also looking for there beyond just the money. Yeah, I mean, I think,

Brian: 00:36:45

uh, we might have tried to hold out a bit longer if we weren't pretty confident that, um, you know, the Intel didn't want to just, you know, reorg us into a million pieces and, and didn't have some kind of legitimate need for the stuff we were working on. So I think there's a lot of, we took a lot of comfort in what they wanted us to do, and it's hard to say, you know, what we would've done differently. If it hadn't been, you know, apparent that they, that they sort of had a future in mind for

Tim: 00:37:11

us. Mm-hmm. Well, what about like, so, you know, at risk zero now, um, you know, the, as you're, as you're growing, uh, and just maybe, you know, tapping on some of those experiences from Vertex of. you know, uh, what you would do differently now in terms of almost like from a timeline perspective of trying to like set, I don't know how much transparency goes into the team of, you know, this is our goal in terms of getting to acquisition. Obviously that's a, a, that's a, a tough question to answer. Any, any, you know, entrepreneur, founder that's running a business, but are you, are you planting those seeds earlier? Does it matter or anything else that comes to mind of like, you know, pulling on that past experience that you bring into risk? Yeah,

Brian: 00:37:56

definitely. Um, you know, blockchain's a bit weird of a space because you, you can kind of like IPO o by launching a token, so, which, which you know, is a lot easier to get to. It's kind of messy and weird that this exists, but, you know, we're kind of at a point where we're like, we don't want to get acquired. But, you know, if that happens, I guess that's fine and we're gonna structure our business in, in such a way that that's, you know, a potential. But we're trying to, you know, make this a, a company that lasts. I think that's, that's what we took away from the last startup acquisition experiences. Like, let's, you know, we like doing this and we, we like, you know, having, you know, the ability to build our own house there, I guess. Mm-hmm. So, um, so we're really just trying to make sure we have appropriate runway and that we have, you know, product market fit and, or, you know, appropriate levels of investment to keep the thing going. You know, the foreseeable future until we can get to some self-sustaining point. Nice.

Tim: 00:38:59

Cool. Um, alright, Troy, anything else you wanna add to the, to the, the topic before we transition to, uh, the next? Uh, I mean, on

Troy: 00:39:06

that, on that particular question, I think, you know, I, uh, was recently, uh, you know, I'm joining a new job soon, but, uh, one thing I was doing when talking to a couple of folks, was, you know, some companies would be like, Hey, you know, we're chasing an ipo, or, that's our, that's our goal as I, I, now having gone through this, wanted to also understand like, would you sell, under, what scenarios would you sell? Like sometimes people try to treat IPO as like option number one and the acquisition is like maybe the backup plan. But I kind of wanted like to understand like, the reality is founders are gonna be open to acquisitions, but I wanted as an incoming like engineering leader to be like, I wanna understand the founder. Brain, like how, what they're thinking about, like what scenario would they sell? Uh, cause I want to go into like, you know, a new, new role with eyes wide open in that regard. I think, uh, you know,

Brian: 00:39:56

yeah. I mean, as, so as a founder, you know, you do have an obligation to, you know, do right by your investors. So if selling is, is what makes ultimate sense, you, you kind gotta be open to it no matter what. Mm-hmm.

Tim: 00:40:08

I just think, I think that's really smart though, Troy, I'd, I'd be kind of doing a little bit, little bit more probing too and just, you know, just see what you can uncover. Um, you know, I think there's a level of appreciation that you have that con, you know, you, you're, you have that level of concern or interest in, in terms of the future here. Um, I, I think if it comes across as like, Hey, I don't wanna, you know, take it easy with these questions, it, it, it might actually be, yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Brian: 00:40:34

Yeah. Totally,

Troy: 00:40:35

totally. Yeah, you want it to be intentional and not sort of stumbling into it backwards that, you know, like, eh,

Tim: 00:40:42

Yeah. Good stuff. All right. I, I, uh, I'm gonna transition us now to this, this final segment called Round Out My Career. So this is, uh, a session where we, you know, have this community wheel behind me. We, we spin it, it's got questions and topics that are usually crowdsourced from our community, the Hatchpad community, and, um, they can range from compensation to diversity, diversity. Um, I'm actually not gonna spin it. Um, I already have a question kind of teed up that I think is, is something that has been brewing over here. Uh, and in, in fact, it's, it's an upcoming episode that we're going to, um, be, uh, recording here in the next couple of weeks. And I think there's some, um, some interesting, uh, things to, to pull apart here. And I, I want to see, you know, how maybe you interpreted Troy and also how you, uh, might interpret this, Brian. So the, the upcoming episode's called, uh, the Co-Founder Connection. And what we're doing is tapping into kinda like how co-founders align, you know, how they might compliment one another. And, um, you know, every startup has a, you know, a different path. Some, some it's a solo founder. Some I've seen have like four co-founders. Uh, and so I'm always curious to know, um, you. What plays into maybe, you know, is do do folks see the four? And like, oh wow, that's, that's, they're at a much greater advantage. Uh, but then you got a lot of cooks in the kitchen. Right. Does that lead to, to a little bit more of, you know, arguments over, you know, small decisions and things like that. But, um, you know, I'll start, uh, Brian, with you just, um, you know, you're, you know, you've got, um, you've got a co-founder currently, or, and you've had, you've got two co-founders and, and, uh, at Vertex you had. The same two co

Brian: 00:42:23

Well, actually different, different two, but, um, okay. Effectively we've known Yeah. Each other for 20 years. But go ahead. Sorry.

Tim: 00:42:30

What? So, so what are, what would you say are some of the traits that you think are important to, to have with co-founders that, you know, either complement or don't, um, what have you seen? Like, be, be successful or, or, you know, not so, so healthy?

Brian: 00:42:45

Totally. Um, so I would start off by saying I would never do this alone. Personally. I think that's, Sounds insane to me. Uh, there's just so much to do and, um, I would say, you know, me and Frank and Jeremy like compliment each other really well. Um, I think there's some skill sets that I kind of wish we even had in our sort of founding cohort that we didn't. And if I knew that person, I would always include them in startups and that's more like, you know, organizational skills and so forth, but, Yeah, the, I think it's really important to have a, a good dynamic there. And, and also I think it helps prevent, you know, blind spots by having a diverse, a more diverse perspective, especially earlier on, it stops you from making mistakes, but then yes, you do have to deal with, you know, who's gonna be CEO this time? And other contentious topics like that. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pick out. I'm disappointed I didn't get to hear the clicking noise, but, um, yeah. Does that answer your question or can I found on that

Tim: 00:43:46

No, I think that's really helpful and I, I actually appreciate the point of not doing it solo. I, I st like an idiot started this business solo Um, but, you know, come to find out, you know, my first hire is, you know, become my co co-founder, my partner. Totally. Um, but wish I had done it a lot earlier cuz there is a lot of, lot of anxiety and stress that falls on one person. It, it's, it's helpful to be able to talk that through with somebody else that's going through it with you. Um, uh, Troy, what about you? Like seeing it from, I think it's kind of interesting of looking at it from, you know, also when you're, as you're interviewing. Almost like looking at like the founding team and seeing, you know, who's, who does what and what kind of those backgrounds might look like. But anything, uh, off the top of your head that comes to mind? I mean, I,

Troy: 00:44:30

um, I had an opportunity, like a head of engineering opportunity somewhere that I decided not to pursue because, um, very early stage, like a seed stage. But I felt it, it was a solo founder and I felt that for this particular scenario, that the person probably. Some, like more experienced counterparts to be around them. It was like too much for, for the one person, and I just felt like that maybe wasn't the, the best scenario to join. Uh, I guess it's kind of say like, I mean, in other cases, right? I feel like one person can do it depending on who it is and the scenario, what background they bring. But like, I guess, you know, like it matters. I think it's like assessing about a place, but it is like not the same equation everywhere, right? It's like, it's a, it's a valid factor, but it's like not a valid factor in the same way at each place. Mm-hmm.

Brian: 00:45:19

Yeah, that's, that's very good. Yeah. I think it goes to the, like, you know, make sure you're asking questions if you're, if you're thinking about working for a startup, you know, uh, really ask, ask good questions to the founders and figure out what

Troy: 00:45:31

exactly, exactly whatever you're trying to do, whatever the founding team is, are they positioned well for that specific scenario, you know, to succeed or not? Like whether it's one of them or four of.

Brian: 00:45:41

I'll say it, it's easier to raise money with a team. I think it's it's a lot, it's a lot easier when you, you're, you're like, this is our third company we've made together, and the last one is acquired by Intel. And you put three people up there, you know, you get a lot

Troy: 00:45:52

fewer questions. Well, and you don't have one person spending all of their time doing fundraising. It's like, oh, you, you spending your time doing

Brian: 00:45:58

fundraising? Yeah. Some people can do engineering while you're fundraising. It's.

Tim: 00:46:03

Yeah, I've seen it too where, um, you know, they look for somebody that will, uh, you know, compliment them. Well, obviously I think personality plays a big piece. Like you need to, you know, you need to make sure you guys, you know, get along guys and girls get along. And, uh, one of the things that you know, you can look into is, you know, maybe one, one of the. One of the, the founders is, you know, really strong in the industry, right? Maybe they're, you know, if it's a FinTech platform, like they came up the ranks of, of financial, you know, companies and they've got a really good grasp on the industry. But maybe that doesn't mean that they're the creative type. So, you know, maybe there's, uh, someone that's got the, the ideas and the creativity, but then there's somebody that's, you know, the, the operational execution, you know, side of things. A common theme that I've seen that, you know, needs to be a part of it if it's not, is somebody needs to be a good storyteller. Like somebody needs to be able to absolutely explain like why this is a unique, uh, you know, company product, what have you. And that probably plays into investing, getting investors on board, but you can't just both be, you know, the introvert that doesn't really know how to publicly interact and, and tell that story. And, uh, so that, those are some, some common things that I've seen.

Brian: 00:47:13

Um, I, I still have friends that are the introvert. Trying to make their startup succeed, and they've been doing it for like eight years and they're still just kind of in the same spot. So

Tim: 00:47:23

just navigating some discord chats and uh, and not really taking it too public. Cool. Well, yes, stick a stick around, uh, in a couple months. We'll, we'll have a little bit more, uh, a little bit more on the topic, but, uh, on this one, you know, this has been fun, guys. I appreciate you all, you know, joining us and providing the insight. And, uh, yeah, I think that's, that's a wrap.

Brian: 00:47:45

Great. Thanks for having us. Thanks for sure. Yeah, it was fun.

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