CTO Wisdom with Bohdan Zabawskij | Beyond the Program

Tim Winkler: 00:00:00

Hey, listeners, Tim Winkler here, your host of The Pair Program. We've got exciting news introducing our latest partner series Beyond the Program. In these special episodes, we're passing the mic to some of our savvy former guests who are returning as guest hosts, get ready for unfiltered conversations, exclusive insights, and unexpected twist as our alumni pair up with their chosen guest. Each guest host is a trailblazing expert in a unique technical field. Think data, product management, and engineering, all with a keen focus on startups and career growth. Look out for these bonus episodes dropping every other week, bridging the gaps between our traditional Pair Program episodes. So buckle up and get ready to venture Beyond the Program. Enjoy.

Eric Brooke: 00:00:51

Welcome to CTO Wisdom. My name is Eric Brooke. This series will talk with people who've led technology at organizations. We'll seek to understand some of the journeys of a person, explore what's successful, a current problem they're discovering or digging into, And what are they seeing in the wider tech market? Finally, we'll talk about some recommendations where they collect intelligence for them and their organization. Welcome to Bohdan, who we'll be chatting with today. Hey Bohdan. Good afternoon, could you give us your elevator pitch, please?

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:01:34

Sure. Uh, I'm a serial chief technology officer, chief product officer. I have had 35 years of operational experience about 23 years as a C level executive across a variety of domains, everything from telecom, HR tech, fintech, e commerce, SAS. Um, and it's been quite a journey, so I'm happy to share my experiences. That's

Eric Brooke: 00:01:58

awesome. Thank you. So, let's get started from the beginning. Like, could you tell us a bit about your journey before you became an

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:02:04

executive? Okay, um, I graduated in the late 80s out of engineering school, specifically of T. E. engineering. Um, and I was lucky enough, uh, to Enter the workforce almost immediately. We were entering a downturn at the time, uh, particularly in Canada. So I guess a bit of reflections on the current environment right now in the tech industry generally. But I was lucky enough to have a great coach and mentor. Within the bell, Canada group of companies, and I basically had a number of. Fairly strategic projects that I was put in charge of within the 1st project that I did actually had to do with the deployment of payphone terminals. You probably still see them in airports within Canada. The ones that are 2 fluorescent display. Uh, specifically, I was in charge of designing, architecting and deploying. The data authentication network for those. Current base terminals, which was. Science fiction at the time in the late 80s. So effectively, um, the protocol that was used specifically was X25. So this is all pre internet. So again, uh, learned a lot about stakeholder management, critical path management, project management. Uh, that was our first project. Um, I was then put in charge of even larger scale projects, like the modernization of the signaling network within Dell Canada, specifically Ontario and Quebec. Although my I think guidelines were used ubiquitously within the other telecom networks within Canada. And finally, the deployment of equal access, um, was due to deregulation in Canada. Um, I did also, during that time, I was lucky enough to do a master's of engineering degree at McGill and do some research at Bell Norwood Research, which is An adjunct company or sister company about Canada, which was the advanced research arm of Nortel telecom at that one time, it's probably the closest thing to Google before Google, which is kind of cool for me as a young engineering manager slash researcher. From there, um, I was, um, approached by the chairman of the board at a regulatory proceeding, uh, ironically enough, because I was one of those odd engineers that could write and talk. Uh, so I got involved in regulatory proceedings at the CRDC, uh, and it basically approached and said I could use you, my fledgling telecom company, which was Clarinet. It was microscopic at the time, it was by comparative standards, it was about 100 people in total, but I took a leap of faith, I really just enjoyed everyone I met at ClearNet, and there were a lot of people that thought I was a bit crazy to have this guaranteed sure thing with Bell Canada to jump from basically a 55, 000 person entity to a 100 person entity, but I joined that ClearNet and I never looked back. So. They're in a nutshell grew from about 100 people to 2400 people within 5 years. I was given more of a leadership role. And engineering and the deployment of various engineering, um, projects, like the deployment and selection of the signaling network, uh, selection of switching systems, infrastructure, um, the selection of the OSS system. And it was a great ride. Uh, so clear net was acquired by tell us for 6. 7 billion. In 1999, if I recall correctly, and it was again, it was a great ride. 1 of the things that I found, um, on, I would say, the frustrating side within the Bell Canada prize, which is the ability to apply what we would describe as agile lead methodology. I got to deploy that within Internet, and I never looked back and I also enjoyed. Frankly, the pace at which things could be done, you know, identify symptom, identify root cause, determine a course of action, then execute. I just really enjoy that. And interestingly enough, um, at the tail end of that, I was approached by a co op who had been hired 2 years earlier, uh, named Lucas Kokoski, which started a little startup called Ready, um, about 10 people in size at that point in time. But we spoke and realized that we had a consistent vision on a real time OSS BSS layer operating support system, business support system for telecom networks, and I joined on as it's effectively 1st CTO. Uh, again, people thought it was crazy going from a guaranteed career within TELUS, um, uh, incumbent. But I wanted to take my shot at both telecom and this time, um, being in charge of actually software delivery. And that was an exciting ride. That tenure lasted 10 years. Um, I think I inherited a team size of about five that grew to about 170 people, uh, between Toronto and India. And again, I got to exercise additional muscles with regards to hiring, training, coaching, mentoring organization. I was in charge of both technology and product. Um, and I guess 1 of the unique aspects about that tenure is we IPO in 2007. But one of the, I think, more unknown aspects about RENI was we basically did that without BC or private equity funding. So very unique. So we're doing, we're definitely doing things that we now describe as lean and agile before they became contemporary terms. And, you know, we had to do all of that on our own. Um, in 2010, um, I just. Realized or came to a realization that I'd spent at that point in time, over 20 years in telecom, uh, telecom had been very, very good to me, but I wanted to do something else. So, um, I met, um, a, someone named Sanjay Singhal, who was, uh, an entrepreneur in the GTA area. Who had a collection of media properties and signed on as its CTO. Um, one of the flagship properties was called Audiobook. com. Uh, that was acquired by RB Media. So it's kind of mission accomplished in terms of the end objective of using that. Uh, from there I went to Ripple as its CTO, was a short and exciting tenure. Ripple was acquired by Salesforce. com within a year. Uh, from there, I did a transformation into, or change into Mercatus, which was, um, eventually an e commerce SaaS play. Um, although when I went there, They had a lot of IP, um, focused around a hardware device, which is bolted on a grocery cart. So my mission was basically to transform that IP into an enterprise grade SAS product, which I did. That took five and a half years, uh, at that point in time, uh, towards the end of that. I and my partner were dabbling with a thesis around organizational culture. So we basically left our day jobs because we had early stage success with an alpha based product around our company called 4k. Um, that, uh, with that we were accepted with, into, um, an accelerator called creative destruction lab. Um, we basically. Graduated with, um, with that, with a child, which was an interesting adventure, uh, doing 2 startups at the same time effectively. So, at that point in time, we did separate trip to state. My partner continued on forte on the thesis of diversity, quality, inclusion and belonging on the 40 product, which continues to stay. To this day as an ongoing concern and growing venture, and I continued having a day job, very frankly. So I became a CTO at Kwandle, uh, which was a fintech play focusing on, uh, obtaining, structuring, sanitizing, and delivering, uh, both open source and proprietary data sets to large financial institutions, including hedge funds. Uh, that was acquired. By, uh, so there's a bit of a thesis at this point in time, uh, took some time off after my role was transferred to New York, um, and was approached by Arlo data, which is a health tech concern based in Chicago, backed by European private equity, uh, that was. Um, what I would characterize as a plate spinner, it was a great growth adventure, a top line group by approximately 4 to 5 times. The employee base that I was responsible for responsible for grew by about 3 times. We acquired 10 companies, so had. Uh, both for inorganic and organic growth over that period. And again. Uh, it allowed me to, I guess, demonstrate or leverage a lot of the skills I learned in the previous 2 decades. And a very different environment, PE, uh, inorganic growth oriented company, which did have a significant organic growth component. Organic growth was in order of north of 10%, depending on the feature and product base. And here we are. I left RO Datix when my role is transferred to Europe. And I've been just been, obviously been catching up on topics that fascinate me.

Eric Brooke: 00:11:45

Thank you for that. Um, did you tell me if you, um, what do you remember about your time from like going from non people management to actually having kind of like engineers under you? Were there any bits, um, that you now remember that's now something that you teach your managers as they travel that journey?

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:12:06

Yeah, there's, uh, there are a few things. Um, I guess, interestingly enough, it's probably resonates with one of the first. Near deaf experiences I've had as an engineering leader. If I jump ahead where I was actually hiring, for example, engineering or software developers. Um, at Randy, um, like many, uh, who are freshly minted engineering leaders, I thought all I had to do was hire the very best people, the smartest people, put them in the same room and magic would happen and magic that happened, except it was a dark magic. People just didn't get along. So I quickly realized that, yes, skills, acumen, the ability to learn and evolve are very important, but there's this ephemeral other side, which was equally as important, particularly if you're dealing with, uh, for lack of a better term, organizational culture or team alignment, and that other thing is frankly, a consistent value system. So I learned to quickly determine what the values I wanted to see expressed within the organization. And I made sure that those people were part of the selection process, the people that I believe demonstrating that value. It did take time, you know, it definitely added additional time and energy to the talent acquisition process, but was invaluable with regards to team alignment and overall productivity, which I think helped really enabled us to grow, uh, ready and, uh, you know, very tight financial constraints.

Eric Brooke: 00:13:41

Cool. Could you give me an example of like, um, one or two values that you've seen consistently that you're always looking for?

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:13:49

Um, I guess what I find, so interesting enough, and this is what's gone into Forte, um, you know, this is our thesis that, uh, what we saw, uh, and people, I think, do try and mistake personality with values. And here's the thing. I like, like yourself, I've probably taken every personality, uh, or psychometric test. I could lay my hands off because I did not want to create Forte. Honestly, I want, I want to see if there's already off the shelf tool. I could use it. So I use Myers Briggs, variance of death, variance of five factors. Uh, they're even strengths finder. And here's the thing. If I point towards myself, if I use myself, an example of my Myers Briggs persona is INTJ. And when you think about that, uh, yes, it provides. Signal on, I guess, my personality traits, but does it mean anything with regards to team alignment and organizational culture? And the answer is no, it does provide me valuable information for coaching and self reflection for me to know my strengths and weaknesses. But our thesis was an interesting enough, um, Google did a 2. 5 year study on this very subject. What forms successful, effective teams, and that what they found was. Effectively, what we typically look for in the interview process, skills, acumen, tenure, personality have nothing to do with team success. What they found was what formed team success was this topic of our construct of what they coined as psychological safety. And our thesis was, my partner and I's was. If it's not personality, what is it? And our philosophy was, well, it's an underlying value system and those values are demonstrated by beliefs or sorry, uh, values and beliefs and those values and beliefs are demonstrated by behaviors. So we done that. We basically developed a, um, both a structured questionnaire and a algorithm that would train itself on, uh, basically Employee pool, and that determined what we called the cultural fingerprint. But here's the thing. I was doing that manually. It just took a person week, you know, and, uh, in the early days of 40. So all that the machine learning, all the room, the intent was to compress one week of interviews into five minutes, which was kind of cool. But to get your question, I guess when I guess the value or behavior. Um, and then I personally look for is transparency, candor and authenticity. Uh, quite frankly, I like to think that I. Walk the talk, uh, so to speak. Um, and if anything, here's the thing. Um, particularly people that I support, I want them to feel a sense of security and safety. Uh, that 1, whatever I say, I will do, I will, in fact, do and I want them to, but I also want to see that behavior. Manifested in them, if I don't demonstrate that behavior, how. What I expect that I would expect them to demonstrate that behavior back to me and there is a self serving, um, I guess, behind that, quite frankly, I need signal. You know, if I don't get signal as to what are the positive and negative signals emanating are coming into me from the organization, how can I possibly. Act on it. Um, if I don't get, you know, to me, the people I support are the best early warning system I have, and if I can't get a signal from my own organization, like, how can I possibly determine a path of resolution, address the symptoms, identify root causes, and work towards increasing both employee engagement, stakeholder engagement, and meeting the requirements of the company.

Eric Brooke: 00:18:06

Awesome. So, um, what I'm hearing is lead by example as a manager, and then you'll start to see some of those behaviors. But what you've also said is that the deeper research that you and your partner did helped you understand that actually a lot of this is about values rather than necessarily just personality.

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:18:26

Right. I described, here's the thing. I guess the one interesting thing that I, because we tried that, you know, we had, so back in the day when I was an engineering leader, I would, I would say, okay, let's try this person. Let's try this thing. Let's just see what happens. And honestly, I did not see a correlation. Between anything to do with personality, with team alignment, team product of the individual performance, interestingly enough, and honestly, it was just as valuable as a horoscope. So, if I went out to my HR manager and said, I need 50 INTJs tomorrow, it would be just as ludicrous as saying, I need 50 Scorpios tomorrow. Yeah, no difference.

Eric Brooke: 00:19:09

Awesome. Thank you. So, you've had a very successful career. Can you talk about what success looks like for you and what has helped you be

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:19:19

successful? Okay. Um, I guess, you know, I, I guess from the, um, quantitative aspect, obviously the ability to grow the company in terms of obviously top line metrics and bottom line metrics, like keep a dog, you know, all that. But to me, that's kind of in a weird way. I consider the success of the company as a symptom of something else. So, yes, I can point to literally every company. Yeah. Has been acquired, uh, where I've touched it as a C level executive, which is nice to hear, but I think the me as a person, what I enjoy the most, what I reflect on the most is the people I've hired, grown, coached, uh, to be leaders and executives in their own right. Which is kind of cool to see, you know, I can point to, uh, for example, as one, you know, I, when I entered Fusenet, there was a team lead, uh, that, you know, literally started his own company after I left and he had left, uh, that company was actually acquired by another company in Montreal and he's become an executive coach and mentor in his own right. Um, that frankly, if anything causes an endorphin left, if I reflect back on. What I consider, uh, successful, it's the number of people, uh, that have hired and, you know, I say, oh, you know, he, they're, you know, good for him or her. Uh, you know, they, and a lot of them do stay in contact and honestly, a lot of them have become friends, which is kind of cool as well to form those. Relationships that last, then a lot of them have followed me or continue to ask for my coaching and mentorship, which is kind of cool to see. Awesome.

Eric Brooke: 00:21:09

What else, so you talked a bit, obviously delivery as you consider, um, you talked about the symptoms, what else would you, apart from leadership development and growing others, would you say was key to your success?

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:21:21

Um, I think the ability to adapt and learn, um, you know, when I reflect back across the companies I've been involved with. Um, and this, this really maybe speaks to my philosophy as a leader. I, I'm not a big fan of playbooks per se, you know, which is basically I did this, these, you know, these specific sequence of steps and I'm just going to apply them here because I was successful in this context and I, unfortunately I do see a lot of that, particularly with. Unfortunately, management consulting agencies where they say, here's a playbook. If you do this, you will be successful. And what I find was every company has been a snowflake, uh, in terms of context, in terms of people, in terms of technology, in terms of organizational structure, in terms of the main. And, uh, step one, uh, I think, you know, part of my philosophy is just learn, you know, don't try and do anything, just learn, uh, the state and context of the company. That means, you know, learning about the people, learning as to why they got to this point, which was important, you know, what were the decisions made in the past. And if we see step 2. Two is to determine a hypothesis as how to improve things. And step three is implement and do that kind of rinse and repeat cycle with regards to, um, yes, making decision, communicating, obtaining alignment of that decision, executing, and seeing the results. Um, so I think that literally that kind of. Humility to when you're going into an organization or environment to, you know, not admit that I don't know everything. I'm here to step 1 learn. And yes, I will obviously have a growing repository of experiences and knowledge to back me up, but, uh, to have the humility to understand that, you know, I don't know everything. Please tell me how we got to this point so I could help the company grow from this point onwards. Awesome. Thank

Eric Brooke: 00:23:26

you. So let's dig into, is there a, um, something you're trying to figure out at the moment? Is there a problem that you are kind of particularly interested in or an area of research that you're digging into at this moment? Well,

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:23:39

um, I guess when I was in oral data, I was. Kind of supporting hundreds of people across 10 time zones and literally we did 10 acquisitions in under 3 years. So that was like, that's kind of the plate spinning aspect. So, ironically, I did not have a real chance. Uh, to really keep abreast of compelling developments in technology. The one thing that I found super compelling, literally t minus a year ago was all, uh, and this is where we started hearing the buzz, uh, around generative, uh, generative artificial intelligence. Uh, large language models. And so basically, once I left in February, I've been honestly just catching up, um, on the different models, how they can be used, um, and interesting enough, there's a new model every day. It seems so it seems like it's. Uh, been a perpetual cycle of me learning something new about generative AI and LLMs and the potential applications of generative AI. Cool. Um,

Eric Brooke: 00:24:51

you've been an executive a couple of times. Can you, um, share for the listeners, what's that like? How is it different from being a director or a manager? Um,

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:25:03

and there's, I guess, two aspects. One is a greater emphasis on a correlation to understanding. The strategic intent of the company, um, and which emanates from the board and typically the CEO. As well as stakeholders, like the senior leadership team, but, you know, a strategy if I don't understand the strategy, I can't execute well. And again, every company. Has been different if I focus on the last T fondle was focused on organic growth and a lot of my energy was focused on how do I optimize and improve the productivity to achieve the objectives of the company in that context. And yes, we did things like, um, automating a lot of manual customer success items to improve the efficiency of the company. We. Focus on updating the back end infrastructure, decoupling the front end from the back. And there are a lot of things that were undertaken in that context in the case of. Our data, you know, the instruction distribution comparative was both growth, but also high margins and excess of 40%. So that puts a very different spin on my operating parameters. So, in the case of our data, it's a lot of that. Had to do with, you know, selecting and executing in the context of the prov of obtaining a low cost, uh, center, which happened to be, in this case, north Macedonia. So, again, different, different circumstances, different strategic imperatives, uh, that you really need to understand in order to successfully execute as an executive. The error item. Um, other than strategy and understanding, you know, the strategy, strategic end goals is stakeholder management that includes the board members of the leadership team, marketing, uh, sales, obviously, um, and, uh, obviously the other large stakeholder group is the people I support and balancing all of those, um, really. Understanding, um, or actually it's not un understanding what their requirements are, what their needs are, but also providing consistent, uh, form of communication to the board. Why we did this, what are we operating on? And also the, uh, senior leadership team. 'cause if they don't know what I'm trying to achieve or, or if there's no alignment, um, on what I'm trying to achieve, there's gonna be a point of friction. So it's, a lot of it is. Uh, communicating and alignment across that level of leadership. Cool. Thanks.

Eric Brooke: 00:27:46

Um, is there, um, any particular kind of relationships with one particular kind of role like CFO or Chief Product Officer or Chief Sales Officer? Is there a particular role that you've had that took a little bit longer to figure out, or are there things you can share with us that helped you set up a good relationship with them?

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:28:11

Well, um, one every company has been unique. So in some cases, I've actually been in charge of product. Uh, for example, in the case of renting now optima. So I had both hats. Um, I think that helped me understand the product role. Uh, for example, I was going into an entirely new domain in this case, Celtic. So I at that point partner with my CPO counterpart. Hello. which I'm going to be based in the UK to really understand what their requirements are, their objectives are. So I think part of that is a function of the operating context and company. Uh, but you know, in a, in a way, the same philosophy that I apply to the people I support, I apply to stakeholders, which is transparency, candor, authenticity, because they need to trust me. And I need to trust them. So I, I'm very much on the page of if there's a point of friction, I prefer to identify and communicate what that is. So we can ideally come to some sort of resolution compromise, what have you to further achieve the goals of the organization. So,

Eric Brooke: 00:29:25

in the conversation you mentioned earlier about working for the board, what does that mean? What does it look like from your perspective as either chief product officer or chief technology officer? Yeah.

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:29:38

Well, from my perspective, um, most boards aren't particularly tuned to the tech. What they want to understand is, are things working? And are they working within the operating parameters? So it's not time where it needs to be relative to industry standard. Are your operating efficiencies operating within what they understand within their cohort group? For example, in the case of large private equity firms, they probably have access to tens. Or dozens or even 100, uh, corporations within their portfolio, so they get to see snippets and they will say, Hey, my understanding is, you know, you're operating, you know, they'll say you're a doll. For example, they may focus on, um, top line revenue versus engineer for whatever reason. And my job is to rationalize. Why it needs to get this little, why I need more development resources, but they're very obviously strict. They're very strategic there. You want high level operating metrics. And my job is to communicate why, you know, certain things need to happen. And why, uh, as in the case of oral data, because we needed to prove even our margins. And 1 means of doing that was to, uh, initialize or double down on. Relatively low cost center of region in Eastern Europe.

Eric Brooke: 00:31:01

Okay, cool. So I like the fact that you explained about the cohort that you're often, um, depending who the board member is, has a cohort of companies that they will understand the costs and revenues based from them, and that they will sometimes use that as a base of questions for you. Um, to figure out, are you within their operating parameters?

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:31:24

Correct. And again, every board has been somewhat unique because they've had different strategic objectives. In the case of. Uh, for example, obviously, we're already been margins for probably closer to 0, as opposed to private equity back that, you know, have very high expectations on profitable growth.

Eric Brooke: 00:31:43

Okay. Thank you. Um, what are you seeing in the wider tech market

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:31:48

today? Well, uh, the last year has been interesting with regards to, um, retraction. Um, I guess, you know, having been an operating manager leader and executive across three and a half decades, the closest analogy, uh, I've encountered to what we are now experiencing. Uh, kind of, it kind of reminds me of the dot com era from 99 to roughly 2001, where there was implosion and investment, uh, in the dot com sector was characterized as a dot com center. In an odd way, I see some of the symptoms which preceded the current decline in tech, which was a focus on vanity metrics, like I remember literally the term eyeballs was used as a key as a key investment metric, which obviously didn't make a lot of sense. And I saw hints of that again, leading up to 2021, 2022 and 2023, um, I think 1 thing, which was unique. Okay. And, uh, particularly the last half decade was cheap cost of capital, which is effectively zero. So I think people were making a lot of loose bets. Um, and valuations were, were not correlated with, uh, I guess, sound operational and financial metrics. And now we're kind of seeing that retraction. An unfortunate outcome, but having said that, you know, are all things become in cycles. I think, you know, I guess looking positive, positively increased cost of capital is focusing time, energy and capital on organizations that have sound business models, sound strategic objectives, and finally, you know, sound leadership in organizations, frankly. Um,

Eric Brooke: 00:33:48

what's helped you grow and helped you scale because you've had a, a, quite a journey. So what has helped you in those moments, kind of, um, grow to your next level?

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:34:02

Well, interestingly enough, um, I guess one of the lessons learned a bit, frankly, late in my career, um, was. The realization that I did not need to be the smartest person in the room, uh, and the power of networking, the power of community. And that has really started my, I guess, um, extracurricular activities. I'm starting with the Toronto CTO meetup, which began towards my tenure. At Rennie, uh, so it really just began as a dinner group around roughly a rough cadence of roughly once every 2 months that became a fairly. We're a regular recording meet up, uh, which had a community membership of hundreds of people within the greater Toronto area. Obviously, um, over coven, those activities were suspended, but, uh, I reinstated the, uh, meet up in a postcode environment. Then that's meeting in a, uh, roughly by monthly cadence, last 1 being, uh, roughly 2 months ago. Um, and I, I, I, again, I enjoy that aspect of it. Because I learned from it, you know, I want, I enjoy the prospect of seeing people network, seeing those networks for him because it's what those, I think that that networking aspect, the fact I could bounce on it, your office, someone get a response back, help me grow as a leader because, uh, they've experienced things they've had access to, uh, items I've not seen or heard. And, um, so it's that power of community. Uh, that is, I think, helped me and it's partially what, um, encourages me to continue that. And about eight years ago, I started TrueNorth CTO, which is the Canadian, pan Canadian analog that's grown to over 2, 000 people across Canada. And the one thing. Uh, I think I enjoy, uh, literally you're seeing the most arcane question being posted in a virtual community and people hopping on within minutes and saying, well, this is what I've experienced. So it's a combination, uh, well, I locally call a combination of professional and chill where people can leave their hubris at the door and just help each other in a collaborative and social manner. So lastly, but

Eric Brooke: 00:36:30

not leastly, what do you do for fun, Bohdan?

Bohdan Zabawskij: 00:36:34

Well, um, interesting enough. Um, the communities are my hobby. Like, you know, like people say golf race cars. I actually enjoy the power of community. And, you know, frankly, you know, uh, you know, I, I do invest time and energy into both the Toronto CTO meet up and turn our CTO. Um. I have deliberately, and this is fairly unique, both communities are unsponsored, volunteer led, um, and not for profit. And I did that deliberately because I experimented with a lot of things in early days. Uh, and what I found was, uh, the prospect of sponsorship, it started to distort, um, the communication channels are being formed, uh, and started to create a point of friction. So I made a very early experiment, decided to canon and keep it as a purely unsponsored in community. Organic driven event. And like I said, I honestly get an endorphin lift when I see people communicate with each other, help each other, uh, both directly and and semi publicly within the confines of the community. Other than that, um, I do, you know, have a 5 and a half year old, uh, by virtue. Of the other startup was formed in creative destruction lab. So are we experiencing, um, a parenthood all over again, uh, with regards to a young daughter. So, uh, spending time with her, um, seeing her grow, um, is then, you know, it. Extremely well, it's been encouraging to see her grow as a young, young human being again.

Eric Brooke: 00:38:22

Thank you very much for your transparency and your time today. Um, it's been a fairly insightful talk. Thank you. You're welcome.

Tim Winkler: 00:38:51

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