Fostering Growth: The Art of People Operations in Startups | The Pair Program Ep27

Welcome to the Pair program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world.

I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad, and I'm your

other host, Mike Gruen.

Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to

dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth.

All right, what's up everyone?

We are back for another episode of the Pair Program.

I'm your host, Tim Winkler, uh, company Pie.

My co-host Mike Gruin.

Mike, what's going on?

How are ya?

I'm doing all right.

How are you doing?

Actually, that's a lie.

It's allergy season.

I'm hanging in there.

That's, Hey, hate life.

Yeah.

Well, if not to make your week any worse, I don't know if you heard about the,

the news of Jerry Springer passed away.

Yes, I did

hear that news.

Uh, were you a fan?

Did you, did you watch?

I watched a little bit.

I fan is too strong a word.

I I, I don't wanna blame the messenger.

Right.

Like, I don't think that the decline in society can be directly tied to him.

I think he was more taking advantage of a situation, but it definitely

should, like, that was sort of the beginning of the end in terms of

like the death of shame, right.

Like, and, and sort of the, the birth of real reality, um, real

of reality tv.

Really.

Yeah.

I get a lot of my news from like a morning brew.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, one of the, they gave a shout out to him and like their intro and

everything, I, and, uh, at the end of it, um, I had to give him credit for, this

is such a great line, but it was like for nineties kids, you know, his greatest

role was keeping US company on sick days.

And I was like, that's exactly right.

Because they'd be like, at that 11 o'clock hour and you're like,

there's nothing on, uh, no, I think

pri price is right, and then price is right.

Price is right.

And then switch over to that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, and then later in the day, it was, uh, either job Judge

Waner or, uh, something else.

But anyway.

Okay.

Well, now you're dating yourself.

I don't even Yeah.

You know, judge Judy.

All right.

Just Judy.

Sure.

Um, cool.

Well, yeah.

R i p r I p.

Uh, Jerry, uh, let's give the listeners a little heads up on today's episode.

So today we are going to be, uh, diving into a topic that.

Uh, in my opinion is, is one of the most essential departments of a, uh,

a company and a startup specifically.

Uh, and that is people operations.

Um, obviously I'm a, a little bit biased on this, just kind of

given our focus point for, you know, at Hatch It and Hatchpad.

Um, we are all about people here.

Um, but, um, we are labeling this episode the evolution of

people, operations and startups.

Uh, and so we're gonna be, um, defining the role of people operations in, in

different stages of, of a startups growth.

Uh, we will, we'll dissect a little bit more about some best practices for, you

know, how to scale people, ops team as a startups mature, and then break down,

you know, how this kind of department may differ from vertical to vertical.

Uh, so we have a couple of, of great guests, uh, to help us tackle the topic.

Both of which have spent years in, in people and operations focused roles.

Uh, Jeremy Holloman, uh, who's been a co-founder, VP of people Ops for multiple

startups, and currently the VP of People for Blockchain startup, Shar and Amy

Forrester, who's held roles as recruiting manager, uh, VP of people for several

startups and, and hyper-growth companies, and currently Chief People Officer for

a health and wellness startup firsthand.

Uh, thank you both for spending time with us today on the PAIR program.

Great to be here.

Yeah.

My pleasure.

Cool.

All right, so before we dive in, we, we do like to kick things off with the

fun segment that we call, pair me up.

Pair me up where we all go around the room.

Shout out complimentary pairings.

Mike, you always kick us off.

What, uh, what do you have in store for us?

Yeah, so,

uh, before the show I was joking with Tim that unfortunately

I already used what would've been the pairing for today, which would

be the Rangers and heartbreaking misery, given that they're

losing the series to the devils.

But, uh, that was the very first pairing I ever gave.

So, uh, today's pairing is mentors and success.

Um, over the course of my career, um, very early in my career, um, I got lucky,

got a mentor who was just phenomenal.

She helped me throughout.

Just career development.

Um, she was not an engineer.

Uh, her background was marketing and then product, and then coo, ceo,

um, and, uh, she was someone who I could always call, always count on

to gimme the right advice, call me on my bullshit, um, stuff like that.

So, uh, definitely think that, uh, a lot of credit to Deedee Haskins

for making me who I'm today.

Fortunately, she passed away a few years ago.

Oh man.

Well, yeah.

Mentorship obviously is, uh, near and dear to us on the PAIR program, and

it's, anybody that's participating is usually pretty a, a big fan or

advocate of mentorship or mm-hmm.

Received a ton of that and wants to give back.

Um, so yeah, clearly important, uh, for any, any sort of career growth.

Um, and.

Now mine's gonna sound real elementary, uh, cause it's, it's, uh, mine, mine

is, um, you know, so by the time this releases, uh, the Rangers will have

already been booted from the playoffs.

But, uh, it'll probably be summertime will be nearing summertime at that point.

So, mom, I'm gonna go with something that always, you know, brings

me back to my childhood during summertime is summertime in Slurpees.

Um, so Slurpees, you know, I don't get them ever, uh, throughout the year unless

it's like that hot day in like June, July.

And, um, you know, every time I go in now it's a little different.

When I was a kid, I was going suicide route, you know, little,

little bit of everything.

But now I'm, I'm really dialed into, always been like a Coke fan, Slurpee, but,

you know, mix that with the cherry and get the, the classic Cherry Coke Slurpee.

So anybody here, uh, on that level is, is, is summertime Slurpees hit with you?

Does it resonate?

That sounds really good right now.

Oh, it does sound really good right now.

Does sound great.

Uh, my mother would never let me have those growing up.

So

where I grew up, we had no 7-Eleven, uh, and then, uh, count

on one hand how times I've had, yeah,

probably.

It's, it's raw sugar.

That's really it.

But, uh, but yeah, it's, it's damn, damn good.

Um, so I'm sticking to it.

Um, all right, let's pass it over to our guest.

Amy.

Uh, why don't you give us a quick intro and tell us your pairing.

Yeah, well it's great to be here.

Um, so a little bit about me.

Uh, I have been in the people space for, uh, I guess about 12 or 13 years now.

Um, have worked at a handful of different startups, primarily,

um, in people capacities.

And for the past year and several months have been the two people

officer at Firsthand Health.

Uh, so we work with individuals who receive, uh, Medicaid and in

certain states and work with them to gain access to benefits and

care that they're eligible for.

Um, My pairing also food related.

Um, I'm thinking a lot about that right now as I'm seven months

pregnant and thinking about what I am enjoying and not enjoying.

Um, popcorn and chocolate chips are two of my favorite things.

You gotta pour the chocolate chips in when the popcorn comes

out of the microwave, mix it up and the ratio is super important.

So, you know, making sure that there's not too many chips to popcorn.

Uh, but that's one of my favorite, favorite snacks.

So,

what's the ratio?

Uh, you know, you gotta eyeball it, but I would say it's just

like a, a nice sprinkling of chocolate chips into your popcorn bag and

then a, a good shake and some salt.

Nice.

That's solid.

That sounds good.

Yeah.

Uh, one probably congrats on the

soon to be,

thank you.

But, uh, uh, we just went to a, uh, kinda like a farmer's market last weekend and

they had kettle corn going and I swear, I mean, I, I don't really always bite

on it, but we got the big bag and it's just been, it was gone within 48 hours.

I mean, and it's, it's just so good cause it's got a little sweetness to

it and then you'll get a salty bite.

So I think that's what's great about, so Good.

Your pairing Little sweetness, little, little salty.

Um, awesome.

Well, awesome.

Really great work that you guys are doing at firsthand too.

Um, and, uh, yeah, we'll pass it over to our second guest.

So Jeremy, a quick intro in your pairing.

Yeah.

Um,

so Jeremy Holloman, um, I came into the world of people ops via

the first two companies I co-founded and sort of felt like I had a, it felt

natural for me to own that area of the business, and I was really drawn to it.

Um, so after my own, my own two companies for the last, most of the last decade, um,

in this past August, I joined a web three very distributed blockchain company, which

has been very fascinating and interesting in from the people ops perspective.

Um, and we can talk about that more later.

But, um, Tim's, just so you're not alone on the sports one, I,

I, I'll do a quick sports pairing.

Sweet.

Um, for me, it's gonna be the Boston Celtics and 18th Championship this year.

Um, hopefully that's, I'm not, hopefully when this, uh, goes live.

That is true.

Um,

we called your shot.

I like that.

And,

um, actually,

so.

But my real one, um,

is, I would say actually in New York when I was biking, like

an hour a day into like Manhattan and back, um, it was always cycling

and like audiobooks and podcasts.

Mm.

Uh, it was kinda like my daily, like meditation almost.

Um, nowadays since I'm in suburbia and drive everywhere, um, it is my, uh, rock

climbing gym and podcast or audiobooks.

Cool.

Nice.

What's the, uh, rock climbing gym that you go to?

It's called Flow Stone.

Um, It's actually normally, I I, they have a little coworking space there too, so I'm

like, I work there and then I Oh, neat.

Climb a little bit throughout the day, randomly in between meetings.

Cool.

Um, yeah, it's a really nice setup.

Um, so been going there for, is it,

is it, uh, cause I, I was just talking to somebody about going to,

you know, just meeting new people, go to a rock, going to a rock climbing gym.

And, uh, one of their biggest qualms though was like, you never

get a chance to get on the walks.

It's so, so crowded.

Do you find that it's like, You know, is it just gotta go at a certain

time or is it, does it get pretty pop, like pretty crowded over there?

I'm there

with like the work from home crowd during the

middle of the day, so it's like, it's not crowded really at all.

Right.

Yeah.

Uh, so I think I'm, I'm lucky in that sense.

So it's, um, and it's, it's pretty large, uh, like bouldering gym, so it's,

uh, it's hasn't been an issue unless I go in the afternoon or evenings.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah, I, I don't do much rock climbing, but um, I've been, been once or once

in New Zealand and it was Oh, cool.

An incredible thrill, but, um, Kudos, the people that can do that

stuff like on a regular basis.

It is, uh, it's, it's a, it's a whole nother extreme type of sport.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm a total novice, but there, you see these people in

there just doing like these pullups with like, on these like five millimeter

holds like this, and you're unreal.

Yeah.

It's, it's incredible.

It's insane.

Um, awesome.

All right, well we've got a good crew here.

Um, we've got a, uh, a number of, uh, little subtopics to, to tap into.

So let's, let's jump into it.

Um, so as I mentioned, we are gonna be talking about people, operations,

you know, kind of breaking down everything about this department,

how it evolves and much more.

And, um, I, I always think it's fascinating of, of this specific area of

people ops because it still feels very.

New, uh, in a lot of ways, and I think something that we'll touch on is

how, you know, the emphasis on people has, uh, evolved since like the early

two thousands and in startup world.

Uh, and how like in the last five years or so, it's really, really, um, taken off

and, and become a, a hot topic and a top priority, I think is really interesting.

But, um, I, I'd love for context, um, you know, just to kind of set

the stage that there are different areas that, that are gonna be b

uh, batched into people operations.

So for example, like talent and recruiting, human resources,

um, these can sometimes be.

Grouped in, depending on the size of the company or the org build out and so forth.

But let's go to our guest and let's see, you know, how they

kind of define people ops.

Um, Amy, let's start with you.

Uh, if you wanna maybe talk through some of your past experiences in your

career, uh, in the field and, and, you know, what's some of those areas of

focus that kind of fall within people ops, uh, and, you know, as you're

referencing those, like what was the size of the company during those different

kind of definitions of the role?

Yeah, it's been interesting.

You know, I've worked in, you know, like I said, mostly startups.

They have had a number of different types of, um, you know,

I different sizes and stages.

Uh, the, you know, the largest company I worked in was probably living social.

It was at its height.

About 5,000 people.

And we had everything in people ops.

Like it felt like, you know, we had such a huge supportive group, probably

like at one point 40 people in recruiting, um, you know, 10 HR business

partners, uh, HR operations, managing like vendors and things like that.

Um, and then, you know, employee, uh, Excuse me, employee communications,

we had a whole group that was really dedicated to that.

So thinking about our internal employment brand and how we manage that.

So all in that people team at one point was probably close to a hundred people.

Um, and lots of different sub-functions within it.

When I started at firsthand a little bit over a year ago, I

was employee number, I think 15.

Um, and so I was doing all of those different functions or whatever was sort

of needed and probably other things too.

So I think that it can really run the gamut.

Um, and other, you know, organizations will have lots of

different makeups, um, included in the function, but it can really be,

you know, so many different things.

I think, you know, sort of the evolution from my perspective,

that's been interesting in.

The past, like even like six or seven years more than probably I saw before,

is that it's really now about putting the employee at the center as the

customer of, you know, your business.

Um, and so how are you thinking about the different programs,

the different services, the different needs that they have?

And those can come to life in a lot of different ways.

So it might be in a benefit offering that you have.

Mm-hmm.

It might be in your, um, you know, approach to, uh, remote work.

Mm-hmm.

It could be anything really, um, where you're just kind of thinking about what

are the ways in which we can attract great talent, keep great talent, and

really not just keep them, but like keep them really happy and productive.

Um, so that kind of, I think is morphed and I'm curious how

Jeremy thinks about this too.

Um, it sort of morphed the way that you approach a lot of those

different traditional sub-functions within people operations.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's really fascinating.

And also, I think covid really made people have to think outside the box.

Um, you know, you put a pandemic in, in the way, and, and what we saw was

a lot of like, um, individualized personalized benefits, right?

Where one size doesn't really fit all anymore.

Let's try to cater to folks on a one-to-one basis, which maybe is a

little bit easier for startups than it is like a much larger organization.

But, um, uh, either way like that paired with, um, the war for talent

being really tight during a few years, a little bit different now.

Right.

So, you know, we can talk about that too, of like how

that, how is that gonna change?

Um, you know, maybe, uh, now that we're in a, a world of a lot of layoffs and

riffs, um, but, um, on the topic, let's, let's kick it to Jeremy first, uh, to

continue to kind of see like your point of view on, on how people operations

has evolved and, and what have you seen during those different stages

of the companies you've worked with.

Yeah.

And just to comment

on your last point, like it's.

I think it will be very interesting to see how things evolve or

maybe in, in some people's eyes devolve a little bit like Yeah.

Um, as we have gone from like, what is, I would say primarily

my career has been in this zero interest rate policy environment.

Uh, and yeah, how, how that's gonna change the whole benefit structure or mm-hmm.

Um, but yeah, so similarly, mostly have been in pretty early stage

startups through like series B and you know, definitely those

early stages, it's pretty much.

Just, it was just me.

Uh, maybe 75% talent acquisition, seven 25%, uh, people operations.

And I really kind of threw series, maybe a, I always kind of considered

those, just like my main two pillars and building out, starting to really

build out a recruiting machine.

And then on the flips on the other side of the house, really just focusing on like,

retention and, um, starting to really build out like the employee experience.

Um, and hopefully being able to automate, you know, the core HR functions through,

you know, great tools that didn't really exist when I started my first company.

Urban Stems, like Justworks or Deal or Rippling, all these things that are

like, have made things so much easier.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so, you

know, Spent a lot,

a lot of time building out really in those

focus of those two pillars.

And then underneath those going into like building out technical recruiting,

um, which I'm doing right now.

Um, and maybe we'll work with you guys once, once we out outpaced, uh,

will, who joined my team recently, and then, um, and obviously the general

recruiting side as well, um, as, as the need in the hiring roadmap increases.

But as we got to our series B at my last startup, then we definitely, I

brought in like, I guess kinda like a HR business partner where I had them

really focusing on building out our initial like career pathing, performance

management, um, And really getting a lot smarter around how we were doing

compensation, especially as we went from 15 people in New York to 125 people

all over the US from varying different GOs, um, and some outside the us.

So, um, that's something I'm trying to really figure out how to do on a global

scale now as we are post, you know, heading towards our series day, but

we're across like 15 different countries right now in my current like web startup.

So,

so on that note, so, uh, I guess like urban stems, um, was

that the one you, you, uh, or was, was that you said got to about a hundred?

Uh, 125?

Uh, urban and Clyde?

Both, uh, Clyde probably.

Close to like 200 people or so now.

was like 1 25 and was recently acquired by, uh, cover Genius, larger InsureTech.

But, um, it was probably around 50 people at that

point.

So I think what's interesting is like, so you were, uh, kind of standing up

internally, you know, this kind of recruiting infrastructure, um, uh,

talent acquisition and people ops.

Um, but then you mentioned you looped in an HR business partner.

Did you hire an HR bus, business bus person internally or did you use like

an HR consultant to kind of come in?

Oh, I, I, yeah.

So

I hired like a generalist, like HR person, uh,

internally, yeah, internally to, to join me, uh, to help to build out a lot

of these different programs.

Got it.

Okay.

Cool.

Yeah, I bring it up because, and similar in talent too, you know, I think when

you're between the size of, you know, uh, you know, 10 and, and 50 sometimes.

Right.

Uh, these are two functions that I've seen, you know, engage

fractional consultants or mm-hmm.

Um, uh, just consulting partners until they get to a certain headcount.

We're like, we really need to be mindful about our internal culture

and, um, you know, building out more of a, like a, a standard process.

But, uh, on the flip side, I feel like that's changing.

Uh, and we've seen it, seen it change a little bit more.

And I think, Amy, you're kind of a testament to this too, of, um,

at firsthand, you know, uh, you said you're 15th and, um, higher.

Yeah.

Thereabouts.

Yeah.

And, and I, and I, you know, it's, it's part of a talking point,

but, you know, I wonder how that varies from vertical to vertical.

Um, you know, on, on where they place that value of having that person

in-house, you know, early, early on.

Um, because maybe it resonates with their company's values or something like

along those lines versus outsourcing that type of stuff until, you know,

People's like fifties to 75 and headcount or something like that.

That's been one of the, I mean, one of the reasons why I

joined firsthand really, is because, you know, the, our company got started

so in which, uh, it was really launched.

Our co-founder said, you know, we wanna start a search for a chief people

officer because we care so much about the culture and we care so much about

making sure that this is right from the very beginning or, or intentional and

very thoughtful from the very beginning.

Um, And that was super compelling for me because, you know, to have the

opportunity to build really from the very, very beginning and to, you know,

set norms, to set rituals, to do all these things that, you know, we can

be proactive and we can be creative and we don't have to do things.

Um, just because this is how it's been sort of like by

default happening at a company.

Like we can really shape this to be what we want it to be.

And so that.

For me has been super, super cool in this experience to come in really

early, uh, and have the opportunity to lay some of that foundation.

Mm-hmm.

With, with, uh, with Sharm, Jeremy, um, you know, we touch, touched

on this a little bit in our, uh, disco call, but, you know, for, for maybe

FinTech, uh, or, or even in, in like, uh, blockchain web three space, um, it,

it might not be as much of a priority for a lot of these organizations to

priori like, to, to put in place like, oh, we really wanna focus on people

internally and, and culture is essential.

And, um, and I'm, you know, I'm making a, a generalist kind of statement, but

I'd love to hear your input because you, you mentioned like it's one of the

reasons that you were really intrigued was like they, they wanted to place an

emphasis on people and, and operations and culture, uh, with bringing you in

at an earlier stage and maybe you would traditionally see, so what is your

thoughts on like vertical to vertical.

Yeah,

I mean, I, I would say it's, it was very similar to like,

I, I think Amy's sentiments there.

Um, you know, when I was starting to explore what I was gonna do next after

my last startup, um, I was either going to go back and start another company,

but I also had just had our second kid and like, it was probably gonna

be a terrible time to try to do that.

Uh,

but another topic that we'll bring up, uh, later

on, uh, another episode to bring, to bring you back for, uh,

but

ultimately I, like, I'd been following the space for so

long and I was really curious and I knew that like, it was almost analogous

to like 15 years ago in tech where I don't think like, yeah, the first 50

hires, you probably couldn't find an h like people, ops person within mm-hmm.

Like any YC company back then.

Um, and I saw that really change over like, you know, my first decade

within startups in tech and, um, So when I started to look at different,

like web three organizations, and I really wanted to be, so I'm at a

layer one blockchain startup, so I, I wanted to be on like sort of the

infrastructure layer of, of the ecosystem.

And uh, but as I started to like look around, I noticed that there just

wasn't any people ops across, you know, globally, across any, most of

these, um, like foundations or what we call, what we're called our projects.

And, um, and it was kind of like serendipitous that as I was kind of coming

to that, um, sort of as, as I found that, you know, I was recruited by this head

hunter, um, that was working with Chetty, who is our ceo, um, and co-founder and.

Um, was just super intrigued that there was somebody in web three

that was really bringing in as their first, actually second executive after

the founders, uh, head of people.

Um, and, you know, first like first 20 employee as well.

Um, so

that

immediately, uh, I made, that almost sold me on the spot

that they were actually thinking about that in a, in a really, in a ecosystem

that hadn't put that at the forefront.

So.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I, I, I see a little bit of a tide shift, uh, within the

space, so hopefully we continue to see it go in that direction.

Cause I think it's obviously positive and it's a difficult cultural machine

or whatever to build cuz we're, like I said, we're, we're across

so many different nations and, um, cultures and, and, um, yeah.

It's, it's, it def there's a lot more complexity to it, so we have

to be thoughtful from the outset.

So,

yeah.

Yeah.

As far as like, you know, the evolution of people ops departments from different

stages, so we like to get a little bit granular when we talk about startups.

So like at seed stage to A to B, what would you say, um, become

top priority for the department?

Uh, to kind of keep, keep in mind or to, to focus on as you go from, you know,

say, say C to A or, or, you know, A to B.

Um, what, what are the things that, you know, you all have seen as like,

we, we need to really be aware of this because this is happening.

Um, um, Amy, Jeremy, were you, either of you?

Yeah, I mean, for me, I think like at the very beginning,

and I think that this is actually a through line no matter what stage

you're in, but it's just about, I.

You know, for, you're gonna be growing.

It's setting your recruiting practice up to be successful.

Um, and thinking about, you know, who are the types of people

that we want at this company?

You know, what are the ways in which we go about, you know,

meeting them and selecting them.

Um, and then, you know, there's the other side of it, which is how you help them.

Um, you know, set up how you set them to be successful at the

organization, um, and help your managers, um, you know, successfully,

you know, coach their team members.

Mm-hmm.

But I think that the recruiting piece really early is always super important,

how you think about that and how you make sure that like, if you have, um,

a great hire, you can help them thrive.

If you have a hire that was a miss, like you're figuring out

how you deal with that mm-hmm.

So that it doesn't become, you know, this cultural issue.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I, I think as you get like later stage, like a lot of this stuff

for people also becomes like, how do we have systems and process that scale?

Um, that was something we, uh, not too long ago.

Uh, raised our series B and as a part of that, like one of the things that I did

was really look out to see, okay, like what's working, what's scaling like?

We're on a p e o, we are now at like 75 employees.

This was last year.

Like, we probably need to be on a different payroll and benefit system.

So a lot of it is like, okay, what's actually gonna work for the size and

scale of the organization that we are becoming here in the near term?

And that's where like, as you get later stage, like you wanna

make sure a lot of that stuff is set up to scale successfully.

Yeah, I mean, I can, I can agree more.

Um, and yeah, at the risk of not like, I, I don't wanna repeat, just

repeat Amy, but like a hundred percent like building a great recruiting

muscle into the organization.

Um, Hire really well.

That's, that's really always been the core focus up through our series A.

Um, especially a lot of times you're dealing with pretty green hiring

managers, um, and there's just so much coaching and mentoring mm-hmm.

Along that.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and it's tough, you know, they, they have so much to do and, you know,

nobody wants to spend 50% of their time also hiring and going through

recruiting process and figuring that out.

So, um, but that's where I think customer first, treating them, like

the customer and really guiding them through that process is like I,

that's where I focus at the beginning.

Um, and ditto on the rest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, one thing

I, I was gonna say, like, I think you guys are talking about like your

experiences within coming in or whatever.

I can talk a little bit about the experience of like what happens

when you defer that for too long?

Cuz that's a pretty common, like, I've worked at any number of companies where.

I, I think that we should be hiring somebody like you within the first

15 to 20 people we're gonna, or certainly right before big growth.

And so that you, so we have that partner to help us through all that stuff.

Um, having been at companies that like defer that and bring it in, bring

that person in much later, it's a.

Nightmare.

Um.

Mm-hmm.

And I think it's, there is a lot of, I think what Amy was talking about of like,

well, this is the way we've done it, so we're just gonna keep doing it that way.

And it's, it's really hard to change things, and especially

like recruiting or like, why is the interview process 17 steps?

This seems insane.

Well, this is the way we've always done it.

We can't change it now.

And it's like, oh.

So, uh, I definitely, uh, advocate for bringing, uh, people, people in.

Way early on.

It's one of the things, um, a a number of startups I've been

sort of at the forefront of like, pushing with the executives.

And, and one of the things I'd also say, I'm curious for, you know, uh,

Jeremy and Amy to lay in, but like, what are some of the things that,

if I'm a founder, what should I be looking for in a people person?

Because one of the ones is to me, putting the people first.

There's a lot of HR people in the world who say that they put the people

first, but they don't necessarily put the people first, and they get

along really well with some founders.

And I think sometimes what you want is a little bit of a, a different voice.

You want the voice of the, the employee.

Um, and you don't just want another sort of voice for the, the, the bottom line.

I'm curious what your thoughts are.

Um, maybe, uh, start with Amy.

Yeah.

No, I totally agree with that.

I mean, I think, you know, on the one hand, having like a strong alignment

with your c e O does make this job.

You're, you, you're better enabled to get your work done if you have that.

Definitely.

Um, but yeah, I think like, you know, being not afraid to sort of dissent

and, um, you know, push back if they or any other person at the company is

sort of like doing something that's out of line with the values, I think

it, like honestly, it does come down to like, what are our values here?

Mm-hmm.

Like, am I aligned to that as the head of people?

Um, and is that somebody who like, you know, even when I think like you

probably went ahead of people who.

Even when, uh, you know, decisions are really hard, there might be like something

that is a not great outcome that occurs.

Like, are they gonna try to stay true to the company's values and, um, you

know, work through it in that way?

Or are they just gonna pivot and be like, sorry, like this, these are hard times and

like, we're gonna do something different.

Like, I think you probably want somebody who is gonna be that.

Like beacon for your values of the organization, um, and

help drive those through.

Yeah, definitely like sort almost the conscious of conscience

of the, of the organization.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I think obviously my last two, I was also

the co-founder, but, uh, maybe that made it a, you know, I knew my c

e o and co-founder extremely well.

Um, and, but I also understood my role as being the voice of the employee base.

And, uh, but because I knew him so well, I could, you know, actually we

could call each other out on our shit.

Uh, and, but it was really important that there was somebody there that

could actually, you know, do that, um, and, and speak to 'em in a, a very

transparent way and make sure that we were always being like, true to

like the mission or our values that we had, you know, spoken through.

Yeah, I think one of the things that we see, which I think is.

Kind of universal across startups, right?

Is like you, you're trying in early stages, let's just call it seed and

a, you're trying to get as much juice from the squeeze as you can, right?

And so when we talk about like, uh, a multifaceted pet of people and,

you know, we kind of allude to like talent recruiting, um, you know, kind

of culture, you know, making sure folks feel, um, like they're a part

of, of the organization, which becomes challenging in a distributed workforce.

Um, you know, how do you prioritize?

Cuz every, you know, we, we, we've kind of said like talent and recruiting and

I'm, I can speak to this from a, as a third party recruiting partner, right?

You know, we, we see one of two things where it's either we're gonna build

out an internal recruiting department, which is different than like saying

we're gonna build out like an HR team.

Um, versus, you know, we're gonna focus on building a really awesome culture and

we're gonna outsource some of the, some of the, like the sourcing piece of, of,

you know, driving actual talent to us.

Um, how do we prior, where, where do you all kind of see, like you, you,

you draw the line or you prioritize.

We want to bring, we wanna keep talent in-house versus, uh, it's

okay at this stage to kind of like, keep it just one people person and

let's work with a partner that we trust, um, or an agency or two.

You know, I, that, that is something that I've always seen is like,

it really goes one of two ways.

And so I'm always curious on internally, like those conversations with founders of

why do they want to go, let's build the talent team in-house for these reasons.

Like, what do you lose, I guess when you start to look at a partner, because

I, I could tell you what we see.

It's like we want to st like, you know, and, and I think this is a, a big problem

with staffing, which is something that we've been trying to solve for for

years, is you have this disconnect of are you really gonna find folks that

resonate with our culture and our values?

Are you just gonna find me a person that matches the

skillset that we're looking for?

Like, how do we know that you're gonna still look for folks that as if

you were an internal person with us?

Um, you lose that with a lot of vendors.

I, I, I know for a fact.

And we try to, we try to solve that problem.

So how, like if you're not privy to that or you don't know those part,

those partners that are out there, like what is it that you're trying

to, um, convey to your founder of, you know, this is why we're gonna build

it internal, or this is why we're not.

You know?

Yeah, it is, it's hard.

Like everything makes easy softball.

Yeah.

Like, cause I feel like this, this comes back to vertical too.

Like Amy and I feel like at firsthand, like, it's like, listen, you know,

we're in, in kinda like a health, healthcare environment, uh, health

and wellness, and it's important for us to have all of this in house.

You know, just, we don't wanna lose, we don't wanna set up a risk to,

to have one bad apple come through, just because we wanted to not invest

in this internal talent department.

I, well maybe you wanna go

or go?

Go ahead Jeremy.

Uh, I was gonna kind of relate it to my experience with,

uh, Clyde the last company.

So, Uh, we were, it was my first B2B SaaS company, so the first

time me and my co-founder ever building out like a sales org.

Um, and everything that comes along with that.

Um, and looking back on like the five years of building that, um, I would say we

brought in a VP of sales like too early.

Uh, we should have been founder-led

sales much longer.

Um,

and I think that's very similar to, for all the reasons

why it should be founder-led sales for like close product feedback

loop, because generally they're gonna be the head of product really

at, at that stage as well.

Mm-hmm.

Um, for all those reasons,

I think it's super important that talent

is at the early stages.

They should be the frontline selling the vision to all these candidates and,

and really setting that like culture from like first employee meet, um, to

hi, you know, hire through onboarding, um, at least through and post series A.

I've always had like, I would say a mix of like, Outsource recruiting partners of

varying different sort of capabilities.

But I would say like pre-series A is just so important that,

that, that, that is really being ingrained within the founding team.

So similar to sales.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

I, I mean, I think it is really important, you know, as you're making those early

hires that you are able, I love that.

The close feedback loop.

I think that's exactly right.

Like you are in really close touch with recruiting the hiring manager,

you know, other colleagues or whoever.

Um, but I do think, you know, like I find a lot of value in external

partners, you know, at different stages and for different reasons.

Like, you know, right now we have, uh, an internal team that's primarily

focused on our community teams.

Um, but on the tech side, you know, we're, we can partner with others.

And so I think that that's where, you know, when we have Awesome.

Um, partners there, like that really drives and fuels our growth too.

So it's a bit of a balance.

Um, and there's not like one right formula for it.

A lot of it, I think just sort of depends on, you know, what your priorities

are at the company at the time.

Yeah.

I think

exec hires is like something like where like as much as I

like fans myself, a pretty good executive recruiter personally, like, um, those

are people that are just the really top tier talent are just so hard to

get in front of or get your brand no.

Mm-hmm.

Nobody knows about.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So it's, it's, that's where I also have likely gotten, gotten a lot

of support externally in the past.

Yeah.

Yep.

All I was gonna say was I think it's interesting hearing your answer to Tim's

question cuz like if you think about the, all of us on this call, right?

Like Tim on the recruiting side, me more of the hiring manager side and

then you obviously in the middle.

Um, all of the same reasons you give about like why you like may or may not

wanna work with an agency is all the same reasons I give cuz I'm, I consider

myself a very strong hiring manager.

I like interviewing.

I like that process.

And so all of the same reasons, I'm like, no, I don't wanna work, I want to do this.

I want to write the job description.

Yeah, I wanna control the interview.

I want to be the first person they talk to.

So it's kind of interesting to hear, you know, that, that perspective and

if I can find the right partner and people, it's great that that's when

things go really, really smoothly, right?

When we can agree like, this is how the interview process should

go and this is where it makes sense for you to participate or

for me to participate in like that.

But I thought was interesting to hear.

The

answers.

It's, it's, um, it's also, it's like you, there needs to be a level of trust,

and I think everybody's got a good story about being burnt by an agency,

um, to where it's like, all right, you've, I've been burnt too many times.

Like, uh, how do I trust you?

And I think like, in those early stages too.

Um, like I personally too, like I, I wouldn't trust a vendor

to hire our internal team when we're, you know, under 20.

Um, and there's, there's a level of that you kind of alluded to, Jeremy, that

is also a topic that we've covered on in previous episodes called Letting Go.

And I think, you know, there's a tough task of letting go of, of having that,

um, connection with the people, uh, that you're bringing in and you feel like,

you know, you, you're kind of a little bit more in control of the process.

Um, to let go of that in those earlier stages is really challenging.

Um, And that letting go translates over to a CTO o letting go of,

you know, uh, getting he heads down in code and, and so forth.

So it really does kind of translate across, um, startups universally.

Um, but, you know, I, I did wanna also cover it cuz it's top of mind right now.

And I think, you know, there's, there's a huge, uh, responsibility for people that

are in people operations, um, hr, um, to kind of be a, a face to some of what we're

seeing right now, especially in big tech and commercial startup land is layoffs.

Um, is, is, I mean, you can't open up a, a newsfeed without seeing some

sort of a, a massacre of a layoff.

And it's, um, it's affecting people internally.

If, if you, you, you, you think of it or not.

It it is, they're seeing it, you know, everybody, there's

a lot of fear, um, out there.

So I just wanted to kind of bring it up, um, and talk about it of, you

know, how are you all, how do you all handle that with, within your team?

Um, you know, if, if it's happening or not happening, how do you kind

of either put folks at ease or if it is happening, how do you do it

and how do you do it strategically?

Um, yeah.

I've struggled through like the covid, mass zoom

and personalized layoff stuff.

It's like, I get the practicality piece of it, but you know, in, I've had to

lead three large per, not that, you know, thousands of employees, but like

large percentage for our company size, um, reduction in forces and, you know,

it has always been super important that that person had both their, like

their manager and someone from hr.

On that call with them or in person with them to talk them through it.

And I, I couldn't really ever see myself doing it any different way.

Um, and then I personally take project manage or lead out placement efforts

and just do whatever I, I spent the, probably the months after that, um,

both, both of the last few ones just really focus on how can I make intros,

um, using my network and the company's network and our investor networks

to, to get people lined up for jobs.

Cuz uh, showing that you're willing to put in that work after the fact is

helps make everybody that's still there know that you're, you're gonna do the

right thing in all these situations.

So, um, yeah.

That, that just quick thought on it, so.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I couldn't agree more.

I agree.

I, I think the, I was involved in a couple sort of like of the

Covid era Zoom, uh, layoffs.

And fortunately, you know, today I think like we're in a place where that's.

You know, not something that's really on our radar as an organization, which

is great, it's a great place to be, but, um, you feel a lot of empathy for those

who are going through that in the world.

Um, but similarly, you know, I feel like a lot of the, the way in which

some of these have been handled obviously leaves a lot to be desired.

And I would have a hard, hard time, um, seeing myself or our organization

ever conducting, uh, any sort of action like that in that way where it's like

impersonal, I think like, you know, really just making sure that people,

um, feel heard, that they feel that they have the answers that they need,

whether they're leaving the company or they're staying with the company through

an event like that, I think is huge.

And I think, you know, to Jeremy's point, like it doesn't

end on the day that, um, mm-hmm.

The reduction happens, like a lot of work happens beyond that to

really try to help the people who are no longer with the organization,

um, get a great place to, to land.

So, um, yeah, I think just like, you know, more empathy and more

care in those would be great.

I know that, uh, big companies are probably doing the best that they

can, but um, some of the ways in which they've handled it have seemed really

disappointing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Especially like, you know, like I think everyone that grew up in like

tech and people ops over the last.

Like 15 years, like read like Google's Laslow Box book, um, and like then

seeing how Google handled it, oh, I was just like, oh, that's such a bummer.

You like, people have been there for 20 years.

You need an email layoff like that song.

Yeah.

It really is.

I mean, you know, I, I kind of think of it of, of, you know, uh, if, see

if you're quitting a job, right?

Like everybody's always said like, look, leave on good terms, right?

You, you're gonna need that person to kind of vouch for you.

Even if you've already got something else lined up.

It's great, but you never wanna leave on bad terms.

And it really goes for the other party as well.

If you're doing a layoff.

The word's gonna get out and it's gonna ruin, it's gonna really hurt

your reputation and it's gonna impact you for when you will hire again.

And to think like you've wiped your hands clean of it.

Oh, we got rid of the folks.

All right.

We're good.

You know, it's, it's, um, and it, you know, I I, it's, it's

easier said than done, of course.

Uh, but, uh, handling as if, you know, you would, if you were, you know,

leaving a, a, a role like, you know, give, give notice and you get some and

do it in person or, or at least over a zoom or something along those lines.

Like there's, there's some, some protocol that I think, um, could,

could certainly be more, uh, a requirement for, for how it's done.

But yeah.

And I think

the other thing that Jeremy touched on, and it's not just

about your reputation for when you go to hire again, it's for all the

people that are still there and how they, they see how you treat people.

You're letting go and.

That speaks volumes and they, they don't want, you know, the best people will

see that and be like, you know what?

I don't want that to be how my departure goes.

I want to be in control of it.

And so you run the risk of also having additional churn, and it's gonna be

some of your best employees who, who are gonna leave in those situations.

Um, so it's, it's, it's very shortsighted to be like, oh,

we just washed our hands of it.

And, um, so yeah.

Uh, and I think a lot back to like the.com era like that, those mass layoffs

and how those situations went down.

And I think one thing I think back to one of the companies I worked at that

struggled a lot was there were a number of people we wanted to reward, um, even

though we were letting other people go.

And I'm curious what your thoughts are, especially now that you

know, same things like how do you handle promotions and raises?

I remember, um, like really concrete.

Concretely, somebody coming to me and be like, Hey, if we could keep this

person on, I don't, I don't need a raise.

If that means that blah, blah blah could stay for like, and it's like, yeah,

we could keep them for a couple weeks.

Like if you're, you're, we're not giving you that big of a raise that it's

gonna make that much of a difference to how long we can keep this person.

Um, or we also had a free lunch benefit and people are like, why don't we

get rid of the free lunch benefit?

It's like, well, cause that cost us a couple thousand dollars.

It's not.

So I'm curious, like, on those benefits and, and promotions and salaries, like,

do you have any advice, um, on how to sort of handle that while you're also

going through layoffs and how that communication, um, can happen in a

positive way and, and stuff like that?

Um, either one of you, when you feel up to

answering.

Yeah, I mean,

okay.

You can go.

I, I was gonna say, I think like, you know, just being like really transparent

with your employees who are remaining about what the priorities for the

company are, and then like, if you're gonna be, I think it's fine to like,

have promotions to reward people who are there, but like, You know, talk about

why you're doing what you're doing, you know, not like at a macro level, right?

Like, you know, and just making sure that people have that general understanding.

Um, I think it's like when, you know, it feels like a bunch of people

left and then like things don't seem like they're clear or transparent.

That's where companies really kind of get into trouble.

So I think just being clear about what our objectives are, clear about why we're

doing this and not that, um, is huge and like, just don't, like, try to hide stuff.

Like just be honest about it.

Hmm.

Yeah.

I think it's, I mean, the other side of, you know, strategizing and

like building the plan for a riff is like, what are you doing on the,

what's your retention strategy and like, what are you offering people?

Mm-hmm.

Um, especially when like maybe offering them equity is right after

layoffs doesn't feel so great.

I think it's.

Well, yeah, it does feel probably weird for some people to like see

someone getting a pro promotion.

There are generally in those times that those consolidations of

responsibilities and like work and like, you have to recognize the extra

effort people are gonna be taking there.

So I think most people see that they might not, maybe not on day one, but, um, you

gotta reward the people that are gonna be like really carrying you through that

next admittedly more difficult stage.

Yeah.

It's,

it's so true.

And it's like, you know, the reality is like, you're gonna now ask

those folks to do more with less.

So what are you, what are you gonna do for them too now, you know?

Right.

So it is, it is an interesting, it's an interesting time.

Um, but, uh, hopefully it's, uh, it, you know, it will, um, be a little

bit more of a positive outlook, uh, a little bit later on this year.

Um, but why don't we, you know, why don't we pivot, uh, to our, our next segment?

We'll, we'll, we'll pivot to a cheery, uh, segment here, uh,

called the Five Second Scramble.

Um, and so this is a fun, this is a fun one where, I'm gonna ask each of you a

series of questions, kind of gimme your, your, your best answer, your response

within, try to keep within five seconds.

Uh, we're not gonna give you the air horn if you go over or anything like that,

but, uh, well, it'll be a little bit of b business, a little bit of personal.

Um, I'm going to, uh, start with you, Jeremy.

Um, you, are you ready for it?

As ready as it'll ever be, I think.

Okay.

Let's, let's do it.

So what, uh, what problems are you solving at Ardian?

All right, so

I think this is gonna be a pretty, I, I'll, I'll point

out something pretty interesting and I, I would say maybe unique to

like a web three, um, organization.

Um, we are an extremely like entity light structure as an organization.

We have a Swiss foundation, a Dubai entity, where our CEO and founders, we

don't have a US entity, so we're like this global, like, Opensource project with a

bunch of freelancers es essentially like, how do you build a really great culture

on that where everyone still feels, feels extremely connected, especially since our

goal is in three to four years become a dao or, you know, for the uninitiated, a

decentralized, autonomous organization.

Mm-hmm.

And that actual, you know, central governing entity that is our

foundation will actually be dissolved and it'll just be a community token

holder, governed, um, project.

So like building, um, culture, people ops, um, like advancements for the internal

team and all that stuff around that type of framework is a really complex and

sophisticated like issue, which I am probably be solving until we become a dao.

So.

Cool.

Yeah.

All right.

All right.

Um, what is your's, your favorite aspect of working Athar?

Um, so, you know, I think it's been obviously been an extremely

difficult year for like web three.

Um, that goes without saying, right?

I think I was joining the team, I joined the team like two weeks before

Fdx happened, and I was re interviewing with them during like the Terra Luna

and three Arrows capital collapse.

And so it's, it's been a, you know, a bumpy road generally for the ecosystem,

but I feel like we, the entire industry kind of has like this user experience,

um, issue in the sense that all these, none of these layer ones or are supporting

the ability to build like, mass adopted solutions that, you know, because of like

throughput issues or volume or transaction amount, um, issues like, I think Ethereum

does like 13 transactions per second, you know, MasterCard or Visa on their web.

One technology does like hundreds of thousands of seconds, so mm-hmm.

That's like what we need to compete with to be able to build real world solutions.

And I feel like our technology will be the first layer one blockchain that

can enable that type of user experience and help people within this space

build real solutions for real people.

And um, so I think there's a lot of potential upside there and there's

definitely a lot to prove out, but I think that's being part of

something that could really change the narrative for web three, um,

is exciting for me.

Cool.

These are gonna be drastically different answers that Amy gives.

I can, I can see it.

Um, what, uh, what type of technologist Thrive would, would thrive at Ardian?

Um,

so I think people that have been a, um, part of like

open source projects, uh, before, uh, really like sort of self-directed

engine engineers, really like, I would say like, That, that is the type of

people that we're really looking for.

Um, given the nature of our tech, um, obviously we're very deep tech in the

sense that we're like base, base layer, base layer, infrastructure layer, like

distributed system, um, at its course.

So I, you know, people with those backgrounds as well.

Yeah.

What professional advice would you give your younger self

just starting your career?

Oh, man.

Uh, especially in startups.

Uh, the lows aren't as bad as you think.

Yes, that solid.

That's sound advice, man.

Um, what do you love most about yourself?

Um,

I, I think I'm, I have a sort of innate ability to, um, And we

can get all psychological on this because it's probably because I

was bullied a lot when I was a kid.

But I think I have, I have, I have a really good way of making people like

get, helping people bring out their best and making people feel extremely

welcome and comfortable and, and putting them in an environment where

they're able to be super successful.

And I think that's been like my superpower.

Awesome.

I feel like that needs to be like a number one bullet point

for a people operations person too.

Right?

It's a, that's a great, it's a great trait.

Uh, favorite type of bagel?

Uh,

man.

Oh, so, uh, just by itself, probably like every, a

lot of people in everything bagel.

Um, I have a very weird favorite bagel for like a sausage, egg, and cheese.

It's the cinnamon raisin.

Whoa.

I love sweet, savory sort of combinations.

Um, so that, that's.

That's my

difference.

Nice power answer right there.

Um, my wife hates her.

She thinks

it's the weirdest

thing.

That could have been a really solid pairing by the way.

It's like, are you a, are you a McGriddle person or No?

You know, like, uh,

if I went to McDonald's more I would be, but every time I go

to McDonald's I get a Big Mac, so.

Oh, that's a classic.

Um, what is the worst fashion trend that you ever followed?

Uh, so I, I think I grew up,

you know, in like the Jenko jeans, like elementary school,

middle school era, and, um, Yeah, I never found that to be a particularly

great era in American fashion.

And every single day I drive down our street, past our local high

school and it's all coming back.

I'm so, I'm so worried

about that.

Um, like bucket hats,

everything.

It's all like the mid nineties are clothing perspective in

our, our local high schools.

So, um, someone needs to try to reverse that.

And it's Billy, apparently it's has to do with Billy Eilish, but

yeah.

Well, JCO jeans was mine as well.

It's, that's checking the box for sure.

Um, nice.

What is, what is a, a charity or a corporate philanthropy

that's near and dear to you?

Um,

My regular sort of monthly, um, donation I do is the A C L U.

Um, I think they do great work.

Um, that and Amnesty International are the two that I probably like

as far as voting with my dollars.

Uh, are those two?

Um, and like personally, like my like end goal and my startup career,

uh, I would like to start like a minority or underrepresented founders

focused, uh, seed stage fund.

Cool.

If you had one day left to live, would you rather spend it with

Morgan Freeman or Denzel Washington?

Oh damn.

I prepare for that question.

It says a lot about person, Denzel.

Okay.

Going out guns blazing.

Um, what is the number one country you would recommend everyone should

tra travel to once in their life?

Um, so.

My mother came here for college, um, from Japan, um, back in the

late seventies, and all her family's still in Japan, so like my grandma, aunt, uncle.

So pretty much every single summer of my life we spent in Japan, um, and I

think that was, you know, had such a huge impact, uh, on me, uh, and my sisters.

And, um, I think it's such a different culture too, from the us.

Mm-hmm.

I, I I think it's, it, it's pretty eyeopening for people that visit

there and I, I would recommend

that.

Cool.

Nice.

Yeah.

Beau.

Beautiful country.

All right.

That's it.

You made it.

He survived.

Amy, you're up my preventively.

All right,

let's

do it.

Alright.

Um, Amy, uh, explain the problems that you're solving at firsthand

as if I were a five-year old.

Oh, okay.

That's good because I have a six year old, so Oh, perfect.

I will try to calibrate.

Um, we work with, um, a health plan insurer client, um, who

provides Medicaid services to individuals in different states.

Uh, this would also presuppose that this five year old knows about.

Insurers and Medicaid.

Um,

um,

uh, but we, uh, we work with those individuals to help

them get access to, um, different health benefits that they might be

eligible for to different providers.

We help them get connected to, uh, different doctors that can help

them, um, and really just to help them gain access to benefits that

they might be eligible for too.

So if they could, uh, take advantage of different services in their community,

uh, really with the end goal being helping those individuals, um, lead the lives

that they wanna live, so helping them get better, um, healthcare and also,

um, you know, mental healthcare as well.

Cool.

That's really cool for, for the five year olds out there listening,

you know, get your shit together and get a good insurance plan.

Learn about,

yeah.

And my, have my parents visiting right now, uh, from New Hampshire

and they both retired last year and they're watching them navigate that

whole process, like getting insurance as retired, recently retired, yeah.

Um, was like, I'm glad people are bringing

tech to it.

It's so intense.

It's a nightmare.

Yeah.

Um, cool.

So who are your, who are your customers?

Uh, so we have a large health plan as our customer right now.

Um, and so we work with them in several different states.

So, uh, presently we're working with them in Ohio, Tennessee, and Florida.

Cool.

What is your favorite aspect of working at firsthand?

Y you know, it's obviously like, you can probably

not be surprised by this, but.

Uh, it's really mission focused.

So the team that we've recruited to, uh, support the individuals that we work

with are, uh, many of them have lived experience with, uh, serious mental

illness or, um, you know, uh, may have experienced homelessness in their lives.

So this is deeply personal to so many of our frontline team members who are doing

the really hard work every single day.

Um, and I think like, you know, it's just a really special place, like if you talk

to anybody who's here, um, it's really because we wanna help the people that

we're serving, um, have better lives.

And so I think, you know, getting to be a part of that, uh, getting to, you know,

hear about their success stories and, and even like, you know, the, the bad

days, like, it's just such a privilege.

Um, and that's, uh, by, by far my favorite thing about being here.

That's awesome.

Uh, what is an aspect of your culture that you fear losing with growth?

Oh, that's a good one.

You know, um, there's just like something really special about what we have today.

I think, you know, so many of our team members have come in with this

lived experience and, um, you know, bring that to their work every day.

I think, um, I think like, you know, knowing our, our C E O and our other

leaders and the people that we've hired to lead in the teams, you know, I'm not

worried about, I guess maintaining that, but you know, the bigger that you get,

like sometimes the further away from that, the center of your mission, you can feel.

And like right now we're about 200 people.

When we're a thousand people will people still feel like they can pick up the phone

and call me or call our C e o Sommer?

You know, there's that, that I don't wanna lose.

Um, even though that just gets really hard, like the bigger that you

get.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a whole topic in itself.

Um, what is, uh, what is your favorite cereal?

Hmm.

Not a huge, like, cold cereal person.

So I do a lot of oatmeal, so I'll count that.

I do actually do cold oats, um, pretty regularly, so, uh, we'll

make them like a day or so in advance and enjoy, enjoy those.

Although I also sometimes heat them up, which my husband mm-hmm.

Is very confused by.

Um, but they're very good that way.

What kind of oatmeal?

Like, what's, like, do you have a good, do you have like a, a

flavored oatmeal that you go to?

Just

the plain Quaker oats.

Okay.

Yeah.

Nothing super exciting.

What, um, uh, what is your favorite state

that you've ever traveled to?

Oh, mm.

My favorite state.

It might be California.

Um, we have some family there and yeah, it's just like, I like that

you have all of the diversity of, um, the beach mountains, lots of

other types of lands in between.

Mm-hmm.

Although I grew up in North Carolina and it was the same.

Um, but I don't know.

California just has like a cool vibe.

But yeah.

North Carolina also a great state too, though.

Yes.

Also,

also very good.

What, uh, oh, do you have a celebrity doppelganger?

I don't think so.

I don't.

Okay.

Not that I know.

Do you have any phobias or irrational fears?

Hmm,

let's see.

I, this is maybe like New York specific, um, right.

I really hate the pigeons, um, the routes, like, you know, I don't, they,

uh, they could, they're like, I see them rarely enough that it's such a shock

when you do, you're kind of like, oh yeah, like, I forgot you were here too.

Um, but the pigeons like, they just like, they don't move like

when you're coming down the street and like they'll fly at you.

Um, I really don't like them.

It's cause the rats have already moved into apartments.

Like they're looking Yeah, exactly.

They're live in really kush lives somewhere.

Course coolest

contacts.

Um, if you had any superpower, what would it be?

If you could have any superpower, what would it be?

Uh, you know, my son just asked me that last night, so I have

an answer for that readily available.

Um, I think that it would be becoming invisible quickly.

Uh, I think that would be handy.

Uh, and just being able to, you know, kind of like, turn that on or

turn it off, just disappear.

Yeah.

That's a great, that's a great answer.

Um, favorite, uh, favorite Disney character?

Hmm,

that's hard.

Um,

I think, you know, some of like the, uh, peripheral characters in the

Little Mermaid, like, I loved Sebastian.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, I think like that he might be one of my favorites.

That's great.

Yeah.

A little mermaid's.

Incredible.

Um, Good answer.

All right.

That wraps it up.

I mean, you, you also nailed it.

You, you both passed flying colors.

Um, so that's a wrap.

Yeah.

Uh, we went a little bit over, but I think it was, uh, just because

the conversation was flowing and, uh, it was a good discussion.

So I just wanted to thank you all, both again for, for being great

guest and, and tackling a topic that is, uh, so vital, uh, to, you

know, uh, any company's growth.

Um, and obviously extremely important for startups.

But thanks, thanks both for hanging out with us, uh, on the Hatchpad.

Thank you.

Thanks

for having us.

Thanks