Fostering Growth: The Art of People Operations in Startups | The Pair Program Ep27

Tim Winkler: 00:00:05

Welcome to the Pair program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad, and I'm your

Mike Gruen: 00:00:15

other host, Mike Gruen.

Tim Winkler: 00:00:17

Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth. All right, what's up everyone? We are back for another episode of the Pair Program. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, uh, company Pie. My co-host Mike Gruin. Mike, what's going on? How are ya?

Mike Gruen: 00:00:42

I'm doing all right. How are you doing? Actually, that's a lie. It's allergy season. I'm hanging in there.

Tim Winkler: 00:00:47

That's, Hey, hate life. Yeah. Well, if not to make your week any worse, I don't know if you heard about the, the news of Jerry Springer passed away. Yes, I did

Mike Gruen: 00:00:56

hear that news.

Tim Winkler: 00:00:57

Uh, were you a fan? Did you, did you watch?

Mike Gruen: 00:01:00

I watched a little bit. I fan is too strong a word. I I, I don't wanna blame the messenger. Right. Like, I don't think that the decline in society can be directly tied to him. I think he was more taking advantage of a situation, but it definitely should, like, that was sort of the beginning of the end in terms of like the death of shame, right. Like, and, and sort of the, the birth of real reality, um, real

Tim Winkler: 00:01:27

of reality tv. Really. Yeah. I get a lot of my news from like a morning brew. Mm-hmm. And, uh, one of the, they gave a shout out to him and like their intro and everything, I, and, uh, at the end of it, um, I had to give him credit for, this is such a great line, but it was like for nineties kids, you know, his greatest role was keeping US company on sick days. And I was like, that's exactly right. Because they'd be like, at that 11 o'clock hour and you're like, there's nothing on, uh, no, I think

Mike Gruen: 00:01:56

pri price is right, and then price is right. Price is right. And then switch over to that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and then later in the day, it was, uh, either job Judge Waner or, uh, something else. But anyway.

Tim Winkler: 00:02:06

Okay. Well, now you're dating yourself. I don't even Yeah. You know, judge Judy. All right.

Mike Gruen: 00:02:11

Just Judy. Sure.

Tim Winkler: 00:02:13

Um, cool. Well, yeah. R i p r I p. Uh, Jerry, uh, let's give the listeners a little heads up on today's episode. So today we are going to be, uh, diving into a topic that. Uh, in my opinion is, is one of the most essential departments of a, uh, a company and a startup specifically. Uh, and that is people operations. Um, obviously I'm a, a little bit biased on this, just kind of given our focus point for, you know, at Hatch It and Hatchpad. Um, we are all about people here. Um, but, um, we are labeling this episode the evolution of people, operations and startups. Uh, and so we're gonna be, um, defining the role of people operations in, in different stages of, of a startups growth. Uh, we will, we'll dissect a little bit more about some best practices for, you know, how to scale people, ops team as a startups mature, and then break down, you know, how this kind of department may differ from vertical to vertical. Uh, so we have a couple of, of great guests, uh, to help us tackle the topic. Both of which have spent years in, in people and operations focused roles. Uh, Jeremy Holloman, uh, who's been a co-founder, VP of people Ops for multiple startups, and currently the VP of People for Blockchain startup, Shar and Amy Forrester, who's held roles as recruiting manager, uh, VP of people for several startups and, and hyper-growth companies, and currently Chief People Officer for a health and wellness startup firsthand. Uh, thank you both for spending time with us today on the PAIR program. Great to be here. Yeah. My pleasure. Cool. All right, so before we dive in, we, we do like to kick things off with the fun segment that we call, pair me up. Pair me up where we all go around the room. Shout out complimentary pairings. Mike, you always kick us off. What, uh, what do you have in store for us? Yeah, so,

Mike Gruen: 00:03:59

uh, before the show I was joking with Tim that unfortunately I already used what would've been the pairing for today, which would be the Rangers and heartbreaking misery, given that they're losing the series to the devils. But, uh, that was the very first pairing I ever gave. So, uh, today's pairing is mentors and success. Um, over the course of my career, um, very early in my career, um, I got lucky, got a mentor who was just phenomenal. She helped me throughout. Just career development. Um, she was not an engineer. Uh, her background was marketing and then product, and then coo, ceo, um, and, uh, she was someone who I could always call, always count on to gimme the right advice, call me on my bullshit, um, stuff like that. So, uh, definitely think that, uh, a lot of credit to Deedee Haskins for making me who I'm today. Fortunately, she passed away a few years ago.

Tim Winkler: 00:04:53

Oh man. Well, yeah. Mentorship obviously is, uh, near and dear to us on the PAIR program, and it's, anybody that's participating is usually pretty a, a big fan or advocate of mentorship or mm-hmm. Received a ton of that and wants to give back. Um, so yeah, clearly important, uh, for any, any sort of career growth. Um, and. Now mine's gonna sound real elementary, uh, cause it's, it's, uh, mine, mine is, um, you know, so by the time this releases, uh, the Rangers will have already been booted from the playoffs. But, uh, it'll probably be summertime will be nearing summertime at that point. So, mom, I'm gonna go with something that always, you know, brings me back to my childhood during summertime is summertime in Slurpees. Um, so Slurpees, you know, I don't get them ever, uh, throughout the year unless it's like that hot day in like June, July. And, um, you know, every time I go in now it's a little different. When I was a kid, I was going suicide route, you know, little, little bit of everything. But now I'm, I'm really dialed into, always been like a Coke fan, Slurpee, but, you know, mix that with the cherry and get the, the classic Cherry Coke Slurpee. So anybody here, uh, on that level is, is, is summertime Slurpees hit with you? Does it resonate? That sounds really good right now. Oh, it does sound really good right now. Does sound great.

Jereme Holiman: 00:06:17

Uh, my mother would never let me have those growing up. So

Mike Gruen: 00:06:22

where I grew up, we had no 7-Eleven, uh, and then, uh, count on one hand how times I've had, yeah,

Jereme Holiman: 00:06:32

probably.

Tim Winkler: 00:06:35

It's, it's raw sugar. That's really it. But, uh, but yeah, it's, it's damn, damn good. Um, so I'm sticking to it. Um, all right, let's pass it over to our guest. Amy. Uh, why don't you give us a quick intro and tell us your pairing.

Amy Forrester: 00:06:47

Yeah, well it's great to be here. Um, so a little bit about me. Uh, I have been in the people space for, uh, I guess about 12 or 13 years now. Um, have worked at a handful of different startups, primarily, um, in people capacities. And for the past year and several months have been the two people officer at Firsthand Health. Uh, so we work with individuals who receive, uh, Medicaid and in certain states and work with them to gain access to benefits and care that they're eligible for. Um, My pairing also food related. Um, I'm thinking a lot about that right now as I'm seven months pregnant and thinking about what I am enjoying and not enjoying. Um, popcorn and chocolate chips are two of my favorite things. You gotta pour the chocolate chips in when the popcorn comes out of the microwave, mix it up and the ratio is super important. So, you know, making sure that there's not too many chips to popcorn. Uh, but that's one of my favorite, favorite snacks. So,

Mike Gruen: 00:07:54

what's the ratio?

Amy Forrester: 00:07:56

Uh, you know, you gotta eyeball it, but I would say it's just like a, a nice sprinkling of chocolate chips into your popcorn bag and then a, a good shake and some salt. Nice.

Tim Winkler: 00:08:06

That's solid. That sounds good. Yeah. Uh, one probably congrats on the

Jereme Holiman: 00:08:12

soon to be,

Tim Winkler: 00:08:13

thank you. But, uh, uh, we just went to a, uh, kinda like a farmer's market last weekend and they had kettle corn going and I swear, I mean, I, I don't really always bite on it, but we got the big bag and it's just been, it was gone within 48 hours. I mean, and it's, it's just so good cause it's got a little sweetness to it and then you'll get a salty bite. So I think that's what's great about, so Good. Your pairing Little sweetness, little, little salty. Um, awesome. Well, awesome. Really great work that you guys are doing at firsthand too. Um, and, uh, yeah, we'll pass it over to our second guest. So Jeremy, a quick intro in your pairing. Yeah. Um,

Jereme Holiman: 00:08:54

so Jeremy Holloman, um, I came into the world of people ops via the first two companies I co-founded and sort of felt like I had a, it felt natural for me to own that area of the business, and I was really drawn to it. Um, so after my own, my own two companies for the last, most of the last decade, um, in this past August, I joined a web three very distributed blockchain company, which has been very fascinating and interesting in from the people ops perspective. Um, and we can talk about that more later. But, um, Tim's, just so you're not alone on the sports one, I, I, I'll do a quick sports pairing. Sweet. Um, for me, it's gonna be the Boston Celtics and 18th Championship this year. Um, hopefully that's, I'm not, hopefully when this, uh, goes live. That is true. Um,

Tim Winkler: 00:09:45

we called your shot. I like that. And,

Jereme Holiman: 00:09:50

um, actually,

Tim Winkler: 00:09:50

so. But my real one, um,

Jereme Holiman: 00:09:54

is, I would say actually in New York when I was biking, like an hour a day into like Manhattan and back, um, it was always cycling and like audiobooks and podcasts. Mm. Uh, it was kinda like my daily, like meditation almost. Um, nowadays since I'm in suburbia and drive everywhere, um, it is my, uh, rock climbing gym and podcast or audiobooks.

Tim Winkler: 00:10:15

Cool. Nice. What's the, uh, rock climbing gym that you go to?

Jereme Holiman: 00:10:20

It's called Flow Stone. Um, It's actually normally, I I, they have a little coworking space there too, so I'm like, I work there and then I Oh, neat. Climb a little bit throughout the day, randomly in between meetings. Cool. Um, yeah, it's a really nice setup. Um, so been going there for, is it,

Tim Winkler: 00:10:35

is it, uh, cause I, I was just talking to somebody about going to, you know, just meeting new people, go to a rock, going to a rock climbing gym. And, uh, one of their biggest qualms though was like, you never get a chance to get on the walks. It's so, so crowded. Do you find that it's like, You know, is it just gotta go at a certain time or is it, does it get pretty pop, like pretty crowded over there? I'm there

Jereme Holiman: 00:10:56

with like the work from home crowd during the middle of the day, so it's like, it's not crowded really at all. Right. Yeah. Uh, so I think I'm, I'm lucky in that sense. So it's, um, and it's, it's pretty large, uh, like bouldering gym, so it's, uh, it's hasn't been an issue unless I go in the afternoon or evenings. That's cool.

Tim Winkler: 00:11:12

Yeah. Nice. Yeah, I, I don't do much rock climbing, but um, I've been, been once or once in New Zealand and it was Oh, cool. An incredible thrill, but, um, Kudos, the people that can do that stuff like on a regular basis. It is, uh, it's, it's a, it's a whole nother extreme type of sport. Yeah.

Jereme Holiman: 00:11:29

I'm, I'm a total novice, but there, you see these people in there just doing like these pullups with like, on these like five millimeter holds like this, and you're unreal.

Tim Winkler: 00:11:37

Yeah. It's, it's incredible. It's insane. Um, awesome. All right, well we've got a good crew here. Um, we've got a, uh, a number of, uh, little subtopics to, to tap into. So let's, let's jump into it. Um, so as I mentioned, we are gonna be talking about people, operations, you know, kind of breaking down everything about this department, how it evolves and much more. And, um, I, I always think it's fascinating of, of this specific area of people ops because it still feels very. New, uh, in a lot of ways, and I think something that we'll touch on is how, you know, the emphasis on people has, uh, evolved since like the early two thousands and in startup world. Uh, and how like in the last five years or so, it's really, really, um, taken off and, and become a, a hot topic and a top priority, I think is really interesting. But, um, I, I'd love for context, um, you know, just to kind of set the stage that there are different areas that, that are gonna be b uh, batched into people operations. So for example, like talent and recruiting, human resources, um, these can sometimes be. Grouped in, depending on the size of the company or the org build out and so forth. But let's go to our guest and let's see, you know, how they kind of define people ops. Um, Amy, let's start with you. Uh, if you wanna maybe talk through some of your past experiences in your career, uh, in the field and, and, you know, what's some of those areas of focus that kind of fall within people ops, uh, and, you know, as you're referencing those, like what was the size of the company during those different kind of definitions of the role?

Amy Forrester: 00:13:16

Yeah, it's been interesting. You know, I've worked in, you know, like I said, mostly startups. They have had a number of different types of, um, you know, I different sizes and stages. Uh, the, you know, the largest company I worked in was probably living social. It was at its height. About 5,000 people. And we had everything in people ops. Like it felt like, you know, we had such a huge supportive group, probably like at one point 40 people in recruiting, um, you know, 10 HR business partners, uh, HR operations, managing like vendors and things like that. Um, and then, you know, employee, uh, Excuse me, employee communications, we had a whole group that was really dedicated to that. So thinking about our internal employment brand and how we manage that. So all in that people team at one point was probably close to a hundred people. Um, and lots of different sub-functions within it. When I started at firsthand a little bit over a year ago, I was employee number, I think 15. Um, and so I was doing all of those different functions or whatever was sort of needed and probably other things too. So I think that it can really run the gamut. Um, and other, you know, organizations will have lots of different makeups, um, included in the function, but it can really be, you know, so many different things. I think, you know, sort of the evolution from my perspective, that's been interesting in. The past, like even like six or seven years more than probably I saw before, is that it's really now about putting the employee at the center as the customer of, you know, your business. Um, and so how are you thinking about the different programs, the different services, the different needs that they have? And those can come to life in a lot of different ways. So it might be in a benefit offering that you have. Mm-hmm. It might be in your, um, you know, approach to, uh, remote work. Mm-hmm. It could be anything really, um, where you're just kind of thinking about what are the ways in which we can attract great talent, keep great talent, and really not just keep them, but like keep them really happy and productive. Um, so that kind of, I think is morphed and I'm curious how Jeremy thinks about this too. Um, it sort of morphed the way that you approach a lot of those different traditional sub-functions within people operations.

Tim Winkler: 00:15:54

Yeah. Yeah, it's really fascinating. And also, I think covid really made people have to think outside the box. Um, you know, you put a pandemic in, in the way, and, and what we saw was a lot of like, um, individualized personalized benefits, right? Where one size doesn't really fit all anymore. Let's try to cater to folks on a one-to-one basis, which maybe is a little bit easier for startups than it is like a much larger organization. But, um, uh, either way like that paired with, um, the war for talent being really tight during a few years, a little bit different now. Right. So, you know, we can talk about that too, of like how that, how is that gonna change? Um, you know, maybe, uh, now that we're in a, a world of a lot of layoffs and riffs, um, but, um, on the topic, let's, let's kick it to Jeremy first, uh, to continue to kind of see like your point of view on, on how people operations has evolved and, and what have you seen during those different stages of the companies you've worked with. Yeah. And just to comment

Jereme Holiman: 00:16:51

on your last point, like it's. I think it will be very interesting to see how things evolve or maybe in, in some people's eyes devolve a little bit like Yeah. Um, as we have gone from like, what is, I would say primarily my career has been in this zero interest rate policy environment. Uh, and yeah, how, how that's gonna change the whole benefit structure or mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, so similarly, mostly have been in pretty early stage startups through like series B and you know, definitely those early stages, it's pretty much. Just, it was just me. Uh, maybe 75% talent acquisition, seven 25%, uh, people operations. And I really kind of threw series, maybe a, I always kind of considered those, just like my main two pillars and building out, starting to really build out a recruiting machine. And then on the flips on the other side of the house, really just focusing on like, retention and, um, starting to really build out like the employee experience. Um, and hopefully being able to automate, you know, the core HR functions through, you know, great tools that didn't really exist when I started my first company. Urban Stems, like Justworks or Deal or Rippling, all these things that are like, have made things so much easier. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you

Tim Winkler: 00:18:08

know, Spent a lot,

Jereme Holiman: 00:18:11

a lot of time building out really in those focus of those two pillars. And then underneath those going into like building out technical recruiting, um, which I'm doing right now. Um, and maybe we'll work with you guys once, once we out outpaced, uh, will, who joined my team recently, and then, um, and obviously the general recruiting side as well, um, as, as the need in the hiring roadmap increases. But as we got to our series B at my last startup, then we definitely, I brought in like, I guess kinda like a HR business partner where I had them really focusing on building out our initial like career pathing, performance management, um, And really getting a lot smarter around how we were doing compensation, especially as we went from 15 people in New York to 125 people all over the US from varying different GOs, um, and some outside the us. So, um, that's something I'm trying to really figure out how to do on a global scale now as we are post, you know, heading towards our series day, but we're across like 15 different countries right now in my current like web startup. So,

Tim Winkler: 00:19:19

so on that note, so, uh, I guess like urban stems, um, was that the one you, you, uh, or was, was that you said got to about a hundred? Uh, 125?

Jereme Holiman: 00:19:30

Uh, urban and Clyde? Both, uh, Clyde probably. Close to like 200 people or so now. But, so I left day-to-day there in like 2018 to start Clyde, um, which at its peak was like 1 25 and was recently acquired by, uh, cover Genius, larger InsureTech. But, um, it was probably around 50 people at that

Tim Winkler: 00:19:47

point. So I think what's interesting is like, so you were, uh, kind of standing up internally, you know, this kind of recruiting infrastructure, um, uh, talent acquisition and people ops. Um, but then you mentioned you looped in an HR business partner. Did you hire an HR bus, business bus person internally or did you use like an HR consultant to kind of come in? Oh, I, I, yeah. So

Jereme Holiman: 00:20:12

I hired like a generalist, like HR person, uh, internally, yeah, internally to, to join me, uh, to help to build out a lot

Tim Winkler: 00:20:19

of these different programs. Got it. Okay. Cool. Yeah, I bring it up because, and similar in talent too, you know, I think when you're between the size of, you know, uh, you know, 10 and, and 50 sometimes. Right. Uh, these are two functions that I've seen, you know, engage fractional consultants or mm-hmm. Um, uh, just consulting partners until they get to a certain headcount. We're like, we really need to be mindful about our internal culture and, um, you know, building out more of a, like a, a standard process. But, uh, on the flip side, I feel like that's changing. Uh, and we've seen it, seen it change a little bit more. And I think, Amy, you're kind of a testament to this too, of, um, at firsthand, you know, uh, you said you're 15th and, um, higher. Yeah. Thereabouts. Yeah. And, and I, and I, you know, it's, it's part of a talking point, but, you know, I wonder how that varies from vertical to vertical. Um, you know, on, on where they place that value of having that person in-house, you know, early, early on. Um, because maybe it resonates with their company's values or something like along those lines versus outsourcing that type of stuff until, you know, People's like fifties to 75 and headcount or something like that.

Amy Forrester: 00:21:37

That's been one of the, I mean, one of the reasons why I joined firsthand really, is because, you know, the, our company got started in October of 2021, and I think, you know, it was probably like the week or so in which, uh, it was really launched. Our co-founder said, you know, we wanna start a search for a chief people officer because we care so much about the culture and we care so much about making sure that this is right from the very beginning or, or intentional and very thoughtful from the very beginning. Um, And that was super compelling for me because, you know, to have the opportunity to build really from the very, very beginning and to, you know, set norms, to set rituals, to do all these things that, you know, we can be proactive and we can be creative and we don't have to do things. Um, just because this is how it's been sort of like by default happening at a company. Like we can really shape this to be what we want it to be. And so that. For me has been super, super cool in this experience to come in really early, uh, and have the opportunity to lay some of that foundation. Mm-hmm.

Tim Winkler: 00:22:44

With, with, uh, with Sharm, Jeremy, um, you know, we touch, touched on this a little bit in our, uh, disco call, but, you know, for, for maybe FinTech, uh, or, or even in, in like, uh, blockchain web three space, um, it, it might not be as much of a priority for a lot of these organizations to priori like, to, to put in place like, oh, we really wanna focus on people internally and, and culture is essential. And, um, and I'm, you know, I'm making a, a generalist kind of statement, but I'd love to hear your input because you, you mentioned like it's one of the reasons that you were really intrigued was like they, they wanted to place an emphasis on people and, and operations and culture, uh, with bringing you in at an earlier stage and maybe you would traditionally see, so what is your thoughts on like vertical to vertical. Yeah,

Jereme Holiman: 00:23:30

I mean, I, I would say it's, it was very similar to like, I, I think Amy's sentiments there. Um, you know, when I was starting to explore what I was gonna do next after my last startup, um, I was either going to go back and start another company, but I also had just had our second kid and like, it was probably gonna be a terrible time to try to do that. Uh,

Tim Winkler: 00:23:51

but another topic that we'll bring up, uh, later on, uh, another episode to bring, to bring you back for, uh,

undefined: 00:23:59

but

Jereme Holiman: 00:23:59

ultimately I, like, I'd been following the space for so long and I was really curious and I knew that like, it was almost analogous to like 15 years ago in tech where I don't think like, yeah, the first 50 hires, you probably couldn't find an h like people, ops person within mm-hmm. Like any YC company back then. Um, and I saw that really change over like, you know, my first decade within startups in tech and, um, So when I started to look at different, like web three organizations, and I really wanted to be, so I'm at a layer one blockchain startup, so I, I wanted to be on like sort of the infrastructure layer of, of the ecosystem. And uh, but as I started to like look around, I noticed that there just wasn't any people ops across, you know, globally, across any, most of these, um, like foundations or what we call, what we're called our projects. And, um, and it was kind of like serendipitous that as I was kind of coming to that, um, sort of as, as I found that, you know, I was recruited by this head hunter, um, that was working with Chetty, who is our ceo, um, and co-founder and. Um, was just super intrigued that there was somebody in web three that was really bringing in as their first, actually second executive after the founders, uh, head of people. Um, and, you know, first like first 20 employee as well. Um, so

Tim Winkler: 00:25:21

that

Jereme Holiman: 00:25:21

immediately, uh, I made, that almost sold me on the spot that they were actually thinking about that in a, in a really, in a ecosystem that hadn't put that at the forefront. So. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I, I see a little bit of a tide shift, uh, within the space, so hopefully we continue to see it go in that direction. Cause I think it's obviously positive and it's a difficult cultural machine or whatever to build cuz we're, like I said, we're, we're across so many different nations and, um, cultures and, and, um, yeah. It's, it's, it def there's a lot more complexity to it, so we have to be thoughtful from the outset. So,

Tim Winkler: 00:25:59

yeah. Yeah. As far as like, you know, the evolution of people ops departments from different stages, so we like to get a little bit granular when we talk about startups. So like at seed stage to A to B, what would you say, um, become top priority for the department? Uh, to kind of keep, keep in mind or to, to focus on as you go from, you know, say, say C to A or, or, you know, A to B. Um, what, what are the things that, you know, you all have seen as like, we, we need to really be aware of this because this is happening. Um, um, Amy, Jeremy, were you, either of you?

Amy Forrester: 00:26:42

Yeah, I mean, for me, I think like at the very beginning, and I think that this is actually a through line no matter what stage you're in, but it's just about, I. You know, for, you're gonna be growing. It's setting your recruiting practice up to be successful. Um, and thinking about, you know, who are the types of people that we want at this company? You know, what are the ways in which we go about, you know, meeting them and selecting them. Um, and then, you know, there's the other side of it, which is how you help them. Um, you know, set up how you set them to be successful at the organization, um, and help your managers, um, you know, successfully, you know, coach their team members. Mm-hmm. But I think that the recruiting piece really early is always super important, how you think about that and how you make sure that like, if you have, um, a great hire, you can help them thrive. If you have a hire that was a miss, like you're figuring out how you deal with that mm-hmm. So that it doesn't become, you know, this cultural issue. Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I think as you get like later stage, like a lot of this stuff for people also becomes like, how do we have systems and process that scale? Um, that was something we, uh, not too long ago. Uh, raised our series B and as a part of that, like one of the things that I did was really look out to see, okay, like what's working, what's scaling like? We're on a p e o, we are now at like 75 employees. This was last year. Like, we're gonna be at 150, early 2023. Like, we probably need to be on a different payroll and benefit system. So a lot of it is like, okay, what's actually gonna work for the size and scale of the organization that we are becoming here in the near term? And that's where like, as you get later stage, like you wanna make sure a lot of that stuff is set up to scale successfully.

Jereme Holiman: 00:28:30

Yeah, I mean, I can, I can agree more. Um, and yeah, at the risk of not like, I, I don't wanna repeat, just repeat Amy, but like a hundred percent like building a great recruiting muscle into the organization. Um, Hire really well. That's, that's really always been the core focus up through our series A. Um, especially a lot of times you're dealing with pretty green hiring managers, um, and there's just so much coaching and mentoring mm-hmm. Along that. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's tough, you know, they, they have so much to do and, you know, nobody wants to spend 50% of their time also hiring and going through recruiting process and figuring that out. So, um, but that's where I think customer first, treating them, like the customer and really guiding them through that process is like I, that's where I focus at the beginning. Um, and ditto on the rest. Yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:29:17

Yeah. I mean, one thing

Mike Gruen: 00:29:19

I, I was gonna say, like, I think you guys are talking about like your experiences within coming in or whatever. I can talk a little bit about the experience of like what happens when you defer that for too long? Cuz that's a pretty common, like, I've worked at any number of companies where. I, I think that we should be hiring somebody like you within the first 15 to 20 people we're gonna, or certainly right before big growth. And so that you, so we have that partner to help us through all that stuff. Um, having been at companies that like defer that and bring it in, bring that person in much later, it's a. Nightmare. Um. Mm-hmm. And I think it's, there is a lot of, I think what Amy was talking about of like, well, this is the way we've done it, so we're just gonna keep doing it that way. And it's, it's really hard to change things, and especially like recruiting or like, why is the interview process 17 steps? This seems insane. Well, this is the way we've always done it. We can't change it now. And it's like, oh. So, uh, I definitely, uh, advocate for bringing, uh, people, people in. Way early on. It's one of the things, um, a a number of startups I've been sort of at the forefront of like, pushing with the executives. And, and one of the things I'd also say, I'm curious for, you know, uh, Jeremy and Amy to lay in, but like, what are some of the things that, if I'm a founder, what should I be looking for in a people person? Because one of the ones is to me, putting the people first. There's a lot of HR people in the world who say that they put the people first, but they don't necessarily put the people first, and they get along really well with some founders. And I think sometimes what you want is a little bit of a, a different voice. You want the voice of the, the employee. Um, and you don't just want another sort of voice for the, the, the bottom line. I'm curious what your thoughts are. Um, maybe, uh, start with Amy.

Amy Forrester: 00:31:04

Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. I mean, I think, you know, on the one hand, having like a strong alignment with your c e O does make this job. You're, you, you're better enabled to get your work done if you have that. Definitely. Um, but yeah, I think like, you know, being not afraid to sort of dissent and, um, you know, push back if they or any other person at the company is sort of like doing something that's out of line with the values, I think it, like honestly, it does come down to like, what are our values here? Mm-hmm. Like, am I aligned to that as the head of people? Um, and is that somebody who like, you know, even when I think like you probably went ahead of people who. Even when, uh, you know, decisions are really hard, there might be like something that is a not great outcome that occurs. Like, are they gonna try to stay true to the company's values and, um, you know, work through it in that way? Or are they just gonna pivot and be like, sorry, like this, these are hard times and like, we're gonna do something different. Like, I think you probably want somebody who is gonna be that. Like beacon for your values of the organization, um, and help drive those through.

Mike Gruen: 00:32:15

Yeah, definitely like sort almost the conscious of conscience of the, of the organization.

Tim Winkler: 00:32:19

Mm-hmm.

Jereme Holiman: 00:32:21

Yeah, and I think obviously my last two, I was also the co-founder, but, uh, maybe that made it a, you know, I knew my c e o and co-founder extremely well. Um, and, but I also understood my role as being the voice of the employee base. And, uh, but because I knew him so well, I could, you know, actually we could call each other out on our shit. Uh, and, but it was really important that there was somebody there that could actually, you know, do that, um, and, and speak to 'em in a, a very transparent way and make sure that we were always being like, true to like the mission or our values that we had, you know, spoken through.

Tim Winkler: 00:33:00

Yeah, I think one of the things that we see, which I think is. Kind of universal across startups, right? Is like you, you're trying in early stages, let's just call it seed and a, you're trying to get as much juice from the squeeze as you can, right? And so when we talk about like, uh, a multifaceted pet of people and, you know, we kind of allude to like talent recruiting, um, you know, kind of culture, you know, making sure folks feel, um, like they're a part of, of the organization, which becomes challenging in a distributed workforce. Um, you know, how do you prioritize? Cuz every, you know, we, we, we've kind of said like talent and recruiting and I'm, I can speak to this from a, as a third party recruiting partner, right? You know, we, we see one of two things where it's either we're gonna build out an internal recruiting department, which is different than like saying we're gonna build out like an HR team. Um, versus, you know, we're gonna focus on building a really awesome culture and we're gonna outsource some of the, some of the, like the sourcing piece of, of, you know, driving actual talent to us. Um, how do we prior, where, where do you all kind of see, like you, you, you draw the line or you prioritize. We want to bring, we wanna keep talent in-house versus, uh, it's okay at this stage to kind of like, keep it just one people person and let's work with a partner that we trust, um, or an agency or two. You know, I, that, that is something that I've always seen is like, it really goes one of two ways. And so I'm always curious on internally, like those conversations with founders of why do they want to go, let's build the talent team in-house for these reasons. Like, what do you lose, I guess when you start to look at a partner, because I, I could tell you what we see. It's like we want to st like, you know, and, and I think this is a, a big problem with staffing, which is something that we've been trying to solve for for years, is you have this disconnect of are you really gonna find folks that resonate with our culture and our values? Are you just gonna find me a person that matches the skillset that we're looking for? Like, how do we know that you're gonna still look for folks that as if you were an internal person with us? Um, you lose that with a lot of vendors. I, I, I know for a fact. And we try to, we try to solve that problem. So how, like if you're not privy to that or you don't know those part, those partners that are out there, like what is it that you're trying to, um, convey to your founder of, you know, this is why we're gonna build it internal, or this is why we're not.

Amy Forrester: 00:35:32

You know? Yeah, it is, it's hard.

Mike Gruen: 00:35:35

Like everything makes easy softball. Yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:35:38

Like, cause I feel like this, this comes back to vertical too. Like Amy and I feel like at firsthand, like, it's like, listen, you know, we're in, in kinda like a health, healthcare environment, uh, health and wellness, and it's important for us to have all of this in house. You know, just, we don't wanna lose, we don't wanna set up a risk to, to have one bad apple come through, just because we wanted to not invest in this internal talent department. I, well maybe you wanna go

Jereme Holiman: 00:36:08

or go? Go ahead Jeremy. Uh, I was gonna kind of relate it to my experience with, uh, Clyde the last company. So, Uh, we were, it was my first B2B SaaS company, so the first time me and my co-founder ever building out like a sales org. Um, and everything that comes along with that. Um, and looking back on like the five years of building that, um, I would say we brought in a VP of sales like too early. Uh, we should have been founder-led

Tim Winkler: 00:36:38

sales much longer. Um,

Jereme Holiman: 00:36:41

and I think that's very similar to, for all the reasons why it should be founder-led sales for like close product feedback loop, because generally they're gonna be the head of product really

Tim Winkler: 00:36:50

at, at that stage as well. Mm-hmm. Um, for all those reasons,

Jereme Holiman: 00:36:54

I think it's super important that talent is at the early stages. They should be the frontline selling the vision to all these candidates and, and really setting that like culture from like first employee meet, um, to hi, you know, hire through onboarding, um, at least through and post series A. I've always had like, I would say a mix of like, Outsource recruiting partners of varying different sort of capabilities. But I would say like pre-series A is just so important that, that, that, that is really being ingrained within the founding team.

Tim Winkler: 00:37:26

So similar to sales.

Amy Forrester: 00:37:30

Yeah, I would agree with that. I, I mean, I think it is really important, you know, as you're making those early hires that you are able, I love that. The close feedback loop. I think that's exactly right. Like you are in really close touch with recruiting the hiring manager, you know, other colleagues or whoever. Um, but I do think, you know, like I find a lot of value in external partners, you know, at different stages and for different reasons. Like, you know, right now we have, uh, an internal team that's primarily focused on our community teams. Um, but on the tech side, you know, we're, we can partner with others. And so I think that that's where, you know, when we have Awesome. Um, partners there, like that really drives and fuels our growth too. So it's a bit of a balance. Um, and there's not like one right formula for it. A lot of it, I think just sort of depends on, you know, what your priorities are at the company at the time.

Tim Winkler: 00:38:22

Yeah. I think

Jereme Holiman: 00:38:26

exec hires is like something like where like as much as I like fans myself, a pretty good executive recruiter personally, like, um, those are people that are just the really top tier talent are just so hard to get in front of or get your brand no. Mm-hmm. Nobody knows about. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's, it's, that's where I also have likely gotten, gotten a lot of support externally in the past. Yeah.

Mike Gruen: 00:38:51

Yep. All I was gonna say was I think it's interesting hearing your answer to Tim's question cuz like if you think about the, all of us on this call, right? Like Tim on the recruiting side, me more of the hiring manager side and then you obviously in the middle. Um, all of the same reasons you give about like why you like may or may not wanna work with an agency is all the same reasons I give cuz I'm, I consider myself a very strong hiring manager. I like interviewing. I like that process. And so all of the same reasons, I'm like, no, I don't wanna work, I want to do this. I want to write the job description. Yeah, I wanna control the interview. I want to be the first person they talk to. So it's kind of interesting to hear, you know, that, that perspective and if I can find the right partner and people, it's great that that's when things go really, really smoothly, right? When we can agree like, this is how the interview process should go and this is where it makes sense for you to participate or for me to participate in like that. But I thought was interesting to hear. The

Tim Winkler: 00:39:41

answers. It's, it's, um, it's also, it's like you, there needs to be a level of trust, and I think everybody's got a good story about being burnt by an agency, um, to where it's like, all right, you've, I've been burnt too many times. Like, uh, how do I trust you? And I think like, in those early stages too. Um, like I personally too, like I, I wouldn't trust a vendor to hire our internal team when we're, you know, under 20. Um, and there's, there's a level of that you kind of alluded to, Jeremy, that is also a topic that we've covered on in previous episodes called Letting Go. And I think, you know, there's a tough task of letting go of, of having that, um, connection with the people, uh, that you're bringing in and you feel like, you know, you, you're kind of a little bit more in control of the process. Um, to let go of that in those earlier stages is really challenging. Um, And that letting go translates over to a CTO o letting go of, you know, uh, getting he heads down in code and, and so forth. So it really does kind of translate across, um, startups universally. Um, but, you know, I, I did wanna also cover it cuz it's top of mind right now. And I think, you know, there's, there's a huge, uh, responsibility for people that are in people operations, um, hr, um, to kind of be a, a face to some of what we're seeing right now, especially in big tech and commercial startup land is layoffs. Um, is, is, I mean, you can't open up a, a newsfeed without seeing some sort of a, a massacre of a layoff. And it's, um, it's affecting people internally. If, if you, you, you, you think of it or not. It it is, they're seeing it, you know, everybody, there's a lot of fear, um, out there. So I just wanted to kind of bring it up, um, and talk about it of, you know, how are you all, how do you all handle that with, within your team? Um, you know, if, if it's happening or not happening, how do you kind of either put folks at ease or if it is happening, how do you do it and how do you do it strategically? Um, yeah.

Jereme Holiman: 00:41:50

I've struggled through like the covid, mass zoom and personalized layoff stuff. It's like, I get the practicality piece of it, but you know, in, I've had to lead three large per, not that, you know, thousands of employees, but like large percentage for our company size, um, reduction in forces and, you know, it has always been super important that that person had both their, like their manager and someone from hr. On that call with them or in person with them to talk them through it. And I, I couldn't really ever see myself doing it any different way. Um, and then I personally take project manage or lead out placement efforts and just do whatever I, I spent the, probably the months after that, um, both, both of the last few ones just really focus on how can I make intros, um, using my network and the company's network and our investor networks to, to get people lined up for jobs. Cuz uh, showing that you're willing to put in that work after the fact is helps make everybody that's still there know that you're, you're gonna do the right thing in all these situations. So, um, yeah. That, that just quick thought on it, so.

Tim Winkler: 00:43:01

Sure.

Amy Forrester: 00:43:02

Yeah. I mean, I, I couldn't agree more. I agree. I, I think the, I was involved in a couple sort of like of the Covid era Zoom, uh, layoffs. And fortunately, you know, today I think like we're in a place where that's. You know, not something that's really on our radar as an organization, which is great, it's a great place to be, but, um, you feel a lot of empathy for those who are going through that in the world. Um, but similarly, you know, I feel like a lot of the, the way in which some of these have been handled obviously leaves a lot to be desired. And I would have a hard, hard time, um, seeing myself or our organization ever conducting, uh, any sort of action like that in that way where it's like impersonal, I think like, you know, really just making sure that people, um, feel heard, that they feel that they have the answers that they need, whether they're leaving the company or they're staying with the company through an event like that, I think is huge. And I think, you know, to Jeremy's point, like it doesn't end on the day that, um, mm-hmm. The reduction happens, like a lot of work happens beyond that to really try to help the people who are no longer with the organization, um, get a great place to, to land. So, um, yeah, I think just like, you know, more empathy and more care in those would be great. I know that, uh, big companies are probably doing the best that they can, but um, some of the ways in which they've handled it have seemed really

Jereme Holiman: 00:44:26

disappointing. Yeah. Yeah. Especially like, you know, like I think everyone that grew up in like tech and people ops over the last. Like 15 years, like read like Google's Laslow Box book, um, and like then seeing how Google handled it, oh, I was just like, oh, that's such a bummer. You like, people have been there for 20 years. You need an email layoff like that song. Yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:44:45

It really is. I mean, you know, I, I kind of think of it of, of, you know, uh, if, see if you're quitting a job, right? Like everybody's always said like, look, leave on good terms, right? You, you're gonna need that person to kind of vouch for you. Even if you've already got something else lined up. It's great, but you never wanna leave on bad terms. And it really goes for the other party as well. If you're doing a layoff. The word's gonna get out and it's gonna ruin, it's gonna really hurt your reputation and it's gonna impact you for when you will hire again. And to think like you've wiped your hands clean of it. Oh, we got rid of the folks. All right. We're good. You know, it's, it's, um, and it, you know, I I, it's, it's easier said than done, of course. Uh, but, uh, handling as if, you know, you would, if you were, you know, leaving a, a, a role like, you know, give, give notice and you get some and do it in person or, or at least over a zoom or something along those lines. Like there's, there's some, some protocol that I think, um, could, could certainly be more, uh, a requirement for, for how it's done. But yeah. And I think

Mike Gruen: 00:45:49

the other thing that Jeremy touched on, and it's not just about your reputation for when you go to hire again, it's for all the people that are still there and how they, they see how you treat people. You're letting go and. That speaks volumes and they, they don't want, you know, the best people will see that and be like, you know what? I don't want that to be how my departure goes. I want to be in control of it. And so you run the risk of also having additional churn, and it's gonna be some of your best employees who, who are gonna leave in those situations. Um, so it's, it's, it's very shortsighted to be like, oh, we just washed our hands of it. And, um, so yeah. Uh, and I think a lot back to like the.com era like that, those mass layoffs and how those situations went down. And I think one thing I think back to one of the companies I worked at that struggled a lot was there were a number of people we wanted to reward, um, even though we were letting other people go. And I'm curious what your thoughts are, especially now that you know, same things like how do you handle promotions and raises? I remember, um, like really concrete. Concretely, somebody coming to me and be like, Hey, if we could keep this person on, I don't, I don't need a raise. If that means that blah, blah blah could stay for like, and it's like, yeah, we could keep them for a couple weeks. Like if you're, you're, we're not giving you that big of a raise that it's gonna make that much of a difference to how long we can keep this person. Um, or we also had a free lunch benefit and people are like, why don't we get rid of the free lunch benefit? It's like, well, cause that cost us a couple thousand dollars. It's not. So I'm curious, like, on those benefits and, and promotions and salaries, like, do you have any advice, um, on how to sort of handle that while you're also going through layoffs and how that communication, um, can happen in a positive way and, and stuff like that? Um, either one of you, when you feel up to

Tim Winkler: 00:47:34

answering.

Jereme Holiman: 00:47:35

Yeah, I mean,

Amy Forrester: 00:47:36

okay. You can go. I, I was gonna say, I think like, you know, just being like really transparent with your employees who are remaining about what the priorities for the company are, and then like, if you're gonna be, I think it's fine to like, have promotions to reward people who are there, but like, You know, talk about why you're doing what you're doing, you know, not like at a macro level, right? Like, you know, and just making sure that people have that general understanding. Um, I think it's like when, you know, it feels like a bunch of people left and then like things don't seem like they're clear or transparent. That's where companies really kind of get into trouble. So I think just being clear about what our objectives are, clear about why we're doing this and not that, um, is huge and like, just don't, like, try to hide stuff. Like just be honest about it.

Jereme Holiman: 00:48:21

Hmm. Yeah. I think it's, I mean, the other side of, you know, strategizing and like building the plan for a riff is like, what are you doing on the, what's your retention strategy and like, what are you offering people? Mm-hmm. Um, especially when like maybe offering them equity is right after layoffs doesn't feel so great. I think it's. Well, yeah, it does feel probably weird for some people to like see someone getting a pro promotion. There are generally in those times that those consolidations of responsibilities and like work and like, you have to recognize the extra effort people are gonna be taking there. So I think most people see that they might not, maybe not on day one, but, um, you gotta reward the people that are gonna be like really carrying you through that next admittedly more difficult stage. Yeah. It's,

Tim Winkler: 00:49:14

it's so true. And it's like, you know, the reality is like, you're gonna now ask those folks to do more with less. So what are you, what are you gonna do for them too now, you know? Right. So it is, it is an interesting, it's an interesting time. Um, but, uh, hopefully it's, uh, it, you know, it will, um, be a little bit more of a positive outlook, uh, a little bit later on this year. Um, but why don't we, you know, why don't we pivot, uh, to our, our next segment? We'll, we'll, we'll pivot to a cheery, uh, segment here, uh, called the Five Second Scramble. Um, and so this is a fun, this is a fun one where, I'm gonna ask each of you a series of questions, kind of gimme your, your, your best answer, your response within, try to keep within five seconds. Uh, we're not gonna give you the air horn if you go over or anything like that, but, uh, well, it'll be a little bit of b business, a little bit of personal. Um, I'm going to, uh, start with you, Jeremy. Um, you, are you ready for it?

Jereme Holiman: 00:50:10

As ready as it'll ever be, I think. Okay.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:12

Let's, let's do it. So what, uh, what problems are you solving at Ardian? All right, so

Jereme Holiman: 00:50:19

I think this is gonna be a pretty, I, I'll, I'll point out something pretty interesting and I, I would say maybe unique to like a web three, um, organization. Um, we are an extremely like entity light structure as an organization. We have a Swiss foundation, a Dubai entity, where our CEO and founders, we don't have a US entity, so we're like this global, like, Opensource project with a bunch of freelancers es essentially like, how do you build a really great culture on that where everyone still feels, feels extremely connected, especially since our goal is in three to four years become a dao or, you know, for the uninitiated, a decentralized, autonomous organization. Mm-hmm. And that actual, you know, central governing entity that is our foundation will actually be dissolved and it'll just be a community token holder, governed, um, project. So like building, um, culture, people ops, um, like advancements for the internal team and all that stuff around that type of framework is a really complex and sophisticated like issue, which I am probably be solving until we become a dao. So. Cool.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:30

Yeah. All right. All right. Um, what is your's, your favorite aspect of working Athar?

Jereme Holiman: 00:51:35

Um, so, you know, I think it's been obviously been an extremely difficult year for like web three. Um, that goes without saying, right? I think I was joining the team, I joined the team like two weeks before Fdx happened, and I was re interviewing with them during like the Terra Luna and three Arrows capital collapse. And so it's, it's been a, you know, a bumpy road generally for the ecosystem, but I feel like we, the entire industry kind of has like this user experience, um, issue in the sense that all these, none of these layer ones or are supporting the ability to build like, mass adopted solutions that, you know, because of like throughput issues or volume or transaction amount, um, issues like, I think Ethereum does like 13 transactions per second, you know, MasterCard or Visa on their web. One technology does like hundreds of thousands of seconds, so mm-hmm. That's like what we need to compete with to be able to build real world solutions. And I feel like our technology will be the first layer one blockchain that can enable that type of user experience and help people within this space build real solutions for real people. And um, so I think there's a lot of potential upside there and there's definitely a lot to prove out, but I think that's being part of something that could really change the narrative for web three, um,

Tim Winkler: 00:52:55

is exciting for me. Cool. These are gonna be drastically different answers that Amy gives. I can, I can see it. Um, what, uh, what type of technologist Thrive would, would thrive at Ardian? Um,

Jereme Holiman: 00:53:09

so I think people that have been a, um, part of like open source projects, uh, before, uh, really like sort of self-directed engine engineers, really like, I would say like, That, that is the type of people that we're really looking for. Um, given the nature of our tech, um, obviously we're very deep tech in the sense that we're like base, base layer, base layer, infrastructure layer, like distributed system, um, at its course. So I, you know, people with those backgrounds as well.

Tim Winkler: 00:53:38

Yeah. What professional advice would you give your younger self just starting your career? Oh, man.

Jereme Holiman: 00:53:47

Uh, especially in startups. Uh, the lows aren't as bad as you think. Yes, that solid.

Tim Winkler: 00:53:55

That's sound advice, man. Um, what do you love most about yourself?

Jereme Holiman: 00:54:01

Um, I, I think I'm, I have a sort of innate ability to, um, And we can get all psychological on this because it's probably because I was bullied a lot when I was a kid. But I think I have, I have, I have a really good way of making people like get, helping people bring out their best and making people feel extremely welcome and comfortable and, and putting them in an environment where they're able to be super successful. And I think that's been like my superpower. Awesome.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:32

I feel like that needs to be like a number one bullet point for a people operations person too. Right? It's a, that's a great, it's a great trait. Uh, favorite type of bagel? Uh, man.

Jereme Holiman: 00:54:47

Oh, so, uh, just by itself, probably like every, a lot of people in everything bagel. Um, I have a very weird favorite bagel for like a sausage, egg, and cheese. It's the cinnamon raisin.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:59

Whoa.

Jereme Holiman: 00:55:01

I love sweet, savory sort of combinations. Um, so that, that's. That's my

Tim Winkler: 00:55:07

difference. Nice power answer right there. Um, my wife hates her. She thinks

Jereme Holiman: 00:55:12

it's the weirdest

Tim Winkler: 00:55:12

thing.

Mike Gruen: 00:55:14

That could have been a really solid pairing by the way.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:18

It's like, are you a, are you a McGriddle person or No? You know, like, uh,

Jereme Holiman: 00:55:22

if I went to McDonald's more I would be, but every time I go to McDonald's I get a Big Mac, so.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:27

Oh, that's a classic. Um, what is the worst fashion trend that you ever followed? Uh, so I, I think I grew up,

Jereme Holiman: 00:55:35

you know, in like the Jenko jeans, like elementary school, middle school era, and, um, Yeah, I never found that to be a particularly great era in American fashion. And every single day I drive down our street, past our local high school and it's all coming back. I'm so, I'm so worried

Tim Winkler: 00:55:56

about that. Um, like bucket hats,

Jereme Holiman: 00:55:59

everything. It's all like the mid nineties are clothing perspective in our, our local high schools. So, um, someone needs to try to reverse that. And it's Billy, apparently it's has to do with Billy Eilish, but

Tim Winkler: 00:56:12

yeah. Well, JCO jeans was mine as well. It's, that's checking the box for sure. Um, nice. What is, what is a, a charity or a corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you? Um,

Jereme Holiman: 00:56:29

My regular sort of monthly, um, donation I do is the A C L U. Um, I think they do great work. Um, that and Amnesty International are the two that I probably like as far as voting with my dollars. Uh, are those two? Um, and like personally, like my like end goal and my startup career, uh, I would like to start like a minority or underrepresented founders focused, uh, seed stage fund.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:54

Cool. If you had one day left to live, would you rather spend it with Morgan Freeman or Denzel Washington? Oh damn.

Jereme Holiman: 00:57:04

I prepare for that question.

Tim Winkler: 00:57:08

It says a lot about person, Denzel. Okay. Going out guns blazing. Um, what is the number one country you would recommend everyone should tra travel to once in their life? Um, so.

Jereme Holiman: 00:57:26

My mother came here for college, um, from Japan, um, back in the late seventies, and all her family's still in Japan, so like my grandma, aunt, uncle. So pretty much every single summer of my life we spent in Japan, um, and I think that was, you know, had such a huge impact, uh, on me, uh, and my sisters. And, um, I think it's such a different culture too, from the us. Mm-hmm. I, I I think it's, it, it's pretty eyeopening for people that visit there and I, I would recommend

Tim Winkler: 00:57:57

that. Cool. Nice. Yeah. Beau. Beautiful country. All right. That's it. You made it. He survived. Amy, you're up my preventively. All right,

Jereme Holiman: 00:58:07

let's

Tim Winkler: 00:58:08

do it. Alright. Um, Amy, uh, explain the problems that you're solving at firsthand as if I were a five-year old.

Amy Forrester: 00:58:20

Oh, okay. That's good because I have a six year old, so Oh, perfect. I will try to calibrate. Um, we work with, um, a health plan insurer client, um, who provides Medicaid services to individuals in different states. Uh, this would also presuppose that this five year old knows about. Insurers and Medicaid. Um,

Tim Winkler: 00:58:47

um,

Amy Forrester: 00:58:49

uh, but we, uh, we work with those individuals to help them get access to, um, different health benefits that they might be eligible for to different providers. We help them get connected to, uh, different doctors that can help them, um, and really just to help them gain access to benefits that they might be eligible for too. So if they could, uh, take advantage of different services in their community, uh, really with the end goal being helping those individuals, um, lead the lives that they wanna live, so helping them get better, um, healthcare and also, um, you know, mental healthcare as well.

Tim Winkler: 00:59:27

Cool. That's really cool for, for the five year olds out there listening, you know, get your shit together and get a good insurance plan. Learn about,

Amy Forrester: 00:59:35

yeah.

Jereme Holiman: 00:59:37

And my, have my parents visiting right now, uh, from New Hampshire and they both retired last year and they're watching them navigate that whole process, like getting insurance as retired, recently retired, yeah. Um, was like, I'm glad people are bringing

Tim Winkler: 00:59:50

tech to it. It's so intense. It's a nightmare. Yeah. Um, cool. So who are your, who are your customers?

Amy Forrester: 00:59:59

Uh, so we have a large health plan as our customer right now. Um, and so we work with them in several different states. So, uh, presently we're working with them in Ohio, Tennessee, and Florida.

Tim Winkler: 01:00:12

Cool. What is your favorite aspect of working at firsthand?

Amy Forrester: 01:00:18

Y you know, it's obviously like, you can probably not be surprised by this, but. Uh, it's really mission focused. So the team that we've recruited to, uh, support the individuals that we work with are, uh, many of them have lived experience with, uh, serious mental illness or, um, you know, uh, may have experienced homelessness in their lives. So this is deeply personal to so many of our frontline team members who are doing the really hard work every single day. Um, and I think like, you know, it's just a really special place, like if you talk to anybody who's here, um, it's really because we wanna help the people that we're serving, um, have better lives. And so I think, you know, getting to be a part of that, uh, getting to, you know, hear about their success stories and, and even like, you know, the, the bad days, like, it's just such a privilege. Um, and that's, uh, by, by far my favorite thing about being here.

Tim Winkler: 01:01:14

That's awesome. Uh, what is an aspect of your culture that you fear losing with growth?

Amy Forrester: 01:01:22

Oh, that's a good one. You know, um, there's just like something really special about what we have today. I think, you know, so many of our team members have come in with this lived experience and, um, you know, bring that to their work every day. I think, um, I think like, you know, knowing our, our C E O and our other leaders and the people that we've hired to lead in the teams, you know, I'm not worried about, I guess maintaining that, but you know, the bigger that you get, like sometimes the further away from that, the center of your mission, you can feel. And like right now we're about 200 people. When we're a thousand people will people still feel like they can pick up the phone and call me or call our C e o Sommer? You know, there's that, that I don't wanna lose. Um, even though that just gets really hard, like the bigger that you

Tim Winkler: 01:02:11

get. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole topic in itself. Um, what is, uh, what is your favorite cereal? Hmm.

Amy Forrester: 01:02:21

Not a huge, like, cold cereal person. So I do a lot of oatmeal, so I'll count that. I do actually do cold oats, um, pretty regularly, so, uh, we'll make them like a day or so in advance and enjoy, enjoy those. Although I also sometimes heat them up, which my husband mm-hmm. Is very confused by. Um, but they're very good that way.

Tim Winkler: 01:02:43

What kind of oatmeal? Like, what's, like, do you have a good, do you have like a, a flavored oatmeal that you go to? Just

Amy Forrester: 01:02:48

the plain Quaker oats. Okay. Yeah. Nothing super exciting.

Tim Winkler: 01:02:53

What, um, uh, what is your favorite state that you've ever traveled to? Oh, mm.

Amy Forrester: 01:03:03

My favorite state. It might be California. Um, we have some family there and yeah, it's just like, I like that you have all of the diversity of, um, the beach mountains, lots of other types of lands in between. Mm-hmm. Although I grew up in North Carolina and it was the same. Um, but I don't know. California just has like a cool vibe.

Tim Winkler: 01:03:26

But yeah. North Carolina also a great state too, though. Yes.

Jereme Holiman: 01:03:30

Also,

Tim Winkler: 01:03:31

also very good. What, uh, oh, do you have a celebrity doppelganger?

Amy Forrester: 01:03:39

I don't think so. I don't. Okay. Not that I know.

Tim Winkler: 01:03:43

Do you have any phobias or irrational fears? Hmm,

Amy Forrester: 01:03:51

let's see. I, this is maybe like New York specific, um, right. I really hate the pigeons, um, the routes, like, you know, I don't, they, uh, they could, they're like, I see them rarely enough that it's such a shock when you do, you're kind of like, oh yeah, like, I forgot you were here too. Um, but the pigeons like, they just like, they don't move like when you're coming down the street and like they'll fly at you. Um, I really don't like them.

Tim Winkler: 01:04:23

It's cause the rats have already moved into apartments. Like they're looking Yeah, exactly. They're live in really kush lives somewhere. Course coolest

Amy Forrester: 01:04:30

contacts.

Tim Winkler: 01:04:32

Um, if you had any superpower, what would it be? If you could have any superpower, what would it be?

Amy Forrester: 01:04:39

Uh, you know, my son just asked me that last night, so I have an answer for that readily available. Um, I think that it would be becoming invisible quickly. Uh, I think that would be handy. Uh, and just being able to, you know, kind of like, turn that on or

Tim Winkler: 01:04:53

turn it off, just disappear. Yeah. That's a great, that's a great answer. Um, favorite, uh, favorite Disney character? Hmm,

Amy Forrester: 01:05:09

that's hard.

Tim Winkler: 01:05:11

Um,

Amy Forrester: 01:05:17

I think, you know, some of like the, uh, peripheral characters in the Little Mermaid, like, I loved Sebastian. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I think like that he might be one of my favorites.

Tim Winkler: 01:05:30

That's great. Yeah. A little mermaid's. Incredible. Um, Good answer. All right. That wraps it up. I mean, you, you also nailed it. You, you both passed flying colors. Um, so that's a wrap. Yeah. Uh, we went a little bit over, but I think it was, uh, just because the conversation was flowing and, uh, it was a good discussion. So I just wanted to thank you all, both again for, for being great guest and, and tackling a topic that is, uh, so vital, uh, to, you know, uh, any company's growth. Um, and obviously extremely important for startups. But thanks, thanks both for hanging out with us, uh, on the Hatchpad. Thank you. Thanks

Jereme Holiman: 01:06:08

for having us. Thanks

Tim Winkler: 01:06:09

for having us here.