The Tech Mentor’s Playbook: Traits of Impactful Startup Mentors Unveiled | The Pair Program Ep29

Welcome to the PAIR program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world.

I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad,

and I'm your other host, Mike Gruen.

Join us each episode as we bring together.

Two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

What's up everyone?

We are back for another episode of the Pair Program.

I'm your host, Tim Winkler, accompanied by my co-host Mike Gruen.

Mike, how's it going, sir?

It's

going All right.

Waiting for you to surprise me with, uh, the topic.

Yeah,

but I'm getting stupid.

Not really knowing the answer to, but go

on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we do this every time.

Uh, I usually just try to pull something that's current.

Um, and Mike always tries to pry like, Hey, you gonna ask me some, some sort

of a question, uh, in the beginning?

Uh, yeah.

So my question is, do you have, uh, do you own any Peloton equipment?

No,

that's an easy one.

No.

What about Peloton stock?

Were you, were you a buyer?

No, I was not.

Okay.

Maybe for the best for you.

I, I was a buyer and also, uh, uh, own a, a Peloton bike.

And, um, yeah, the, the news comes out of a another recall.

So apparently their seats are, are, uh, not, uh, the best

of, of functioning right now.

So for, for those listeners out there, just be, be careful.

Be weary.

Peddling on that Peloton.

It's is, it's like there's four or three

call now.

Yeah.

I've heard there's been a few that, uh, is your peloton actually actively used

or is it just a coat rack or a coat?

Like, we always used our equipment for like the ironing, whatever

ironing needed to get done, or

dry cleaning.

It legit has been serving as a coat rack.

It's, so, you're exactly right.

Yeah.

It's been, it's been, it's been collecting dust, but, um, partially because it's

just been moved out of our basement and into the garage and we just haven't.

Relocated our ourselves up there.

Um, but anyways, um, good, good luck to them.

I hope they hope they can rebound.

Uh, well, let's, let's give the listeners a quick heads up on, on today's episode.

So today we are gonna be diving into a topic that's, you know,

very near and dear to, to us here at, uh, our community, Hatchpad.

And, and that is the topic of mentorship.

Uh, so specifically, you know, we want to kind of unpack some

of these characteristics of.

Tech mentors in early stage and high growth startup environments.

Um, you know, we're gonna discuss some of those qualities of mentors, share

some specific examples of successful mentorship, um, uh, from our guests.

And, uh, on that note, we, we have some really great guests to

help us break down this topic.

Uh, Greg Vincent, uh, is an engineering leader.

Uh, he's built multiple engineering organizations from the ground

up for several startups.

Um, has also worked with some really excellent larger tech companies

like PlayStation and OpenTable.

And we have Fa, Olo, uh, a data science manager.

He's worked with several startups as well.

And, uh, a number of big tech companies like HelloFresh and Softchoice.

So thank you both for spending time with us today on the PAIR program.

Thank you

for having me.

Awesome.

You're welcome.

All right.

Well, before we dive in, we do kick things off with a fun segment called Pair Me Up.

Here's where we're all gonna go around the room.

We'll shout out some complimentary pairings.

Mike, go ahead and kick us off.

Yep.

After doing

some, you know, less than, uh, whatever, some, some more

cerebral ones, I've decided to go back to just keeping it simple.

Yogurt and blueberries.

Uh, I do like some vanilla yogurt.

Uh, on some fresh blueberries.

Uh, I've been trying to eat a little healthier these days, and blueberries

apparently are really good for you.

And, uh, so yeah.

Um, and it turns out when I was a little kid, I didn't really like

blueberries except for in yogurt.

But as an adult, it turns out I do just like, I, I don't have my taste of change.

And I just do like, like blueberries, but I still go back

to the blueberries and, and yogurt.

It's a, it's a nice combination.

Yeah, it's a safe safety valve right there going with

the food choice on the parents.

Yeah.

Keeping it simple.

I mean, I already used the mentoring one on a previous one,

so that's, you know, that's true.

I wish I'd saved it up.

Yeah.

Blueberries, uh, they've been pretty frequent in my, my breakfast routine,

but I've been putting them into oatmeal.

Yeah, that's a good, that's a good call too.

Yeah.

So dig, dig some blueberries.

Um, all right, cool.

I'm I'll, I'll jump in.

Mine, uh, pairing today is gonna be, uh, dog baths and bribery.

Um, and it's exactly what it sounds like.

Uh, we have a, a very large 95 pound Swiss mountain dog.

Her name's.

Basil, uh, and she is an absolute baby when it comes to getting bathed.

So we have to pull out all the tricks, um, trying to convince her

to get into the bath and, uh, we'll go through a half a bag of treats

sometimes if, if that's what it takes.

But once she's in, it's kind of this sliding glass door

shower, so she's stuck in there.

She can't escape.

Uh, but bribing her to enter the shower is really how it's all done.

So, Um, we've become the bribery experts with basil and, uh, that's

my pairing, bribery and dog baths.

Nice.

Um, let's pass it along to our guest now, Greg.

Uh, why don't you give us a, a quick intro and, uh, tell us your pairing.

Uh,

sure.

Uh, I'm Greg Vincent.

I'm a technologist, software engineer, engineering manager, uh, with around

30 years of industry experience.

uh, working at various startups.

I think seven of them in my career.

Um, primarily focused on consumer facing, uh, web based products.

And, uh, my pairing.

Since you've clearly been by my LinkedIn profile recently, you may have noticed

I'm a bit of a web performance fanatic.

Uh, so my, my pairing is good web performance and great user experience.

Cannot have great user experience without at least good web performance.

The customer has to wait 10 seconds for your website to render.

You've already lost that customer.

Yep.

No, yeah, that's spot on.

Yeah, definitely.

That's pretty relevant.

Everybody.

Uh, all of our, our listeners can probably relate to that and

would validate that pairing.

So, uh, right on.

Yeah.

Um, cool.

Let's, uh, let's pass it over to f fa fa, uh, quick, uh, intro and pairing.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thanks for having me on.

Um, so quick intro about myself.

So yeah, my name's.

Um, been working in the data space for, for a few years now.

Um, getting closer to that 10 year mark.

Um, during that time we've kind of worked at a bunch of different, start

a couple of different startups, um, a couple of large companies as well, kind

of helping build specifically building out data teams and, and helping kind of,

you know, take something that's an idea into a living breathing concept that's

just not a cost center, but you know, actually at the heart of the organization.

So been really having a lot of fun there.

Um, for my pairing, I would say dinner and sports talk radio, um,

In my own life, I don't think I can kind of do one without the other.

Um, so to the point where if I haven't eaten all day and I'm out,

I make sure I wait till I get home.

Even if I buy something on the way, I make sure I wait till I get home so I

can kind of sit down and turn on some sports stock radio that kind of helps

me de-stress and kind of come back to come back to the, to my center.

So, um, big pairing for me there.

Okay.

That's a good, that's

a good pairing.

I, uh, that my morning commute used to be Sports Stock Radio

and driving in the morning.

Um, but now that I don't commute, I don't get nearly as much Sports Stock radio.

Yeah.

And, and you're, you're, you're joining us from Toronto.

So are you, uh, tuned into, was it the Maple East right now?

Is that, uh, is that front and center for you, or what, who are you

tracking?

Yeah, unfortunately not.

I'm actually tracking the La Laker, so all the way on the other side, on the

other side of the, on the other coast.

So there you go.

So, yeah.

Yeah, it's been good.

We're hopefully, we, uh, we close up the series tonight and, uh, it

can be a, can be a good, a good day.

Uh, it's gonna be tight.

Yeah.

Our producer, a producer has different thoughts it looks

like, uh, uh, nuggets and five.

Huh?

Okay.

Well, good stuff.

Well, um, let's go ahead and make the most of our time and, and, uh, transition

into the, the meat of the discussion here.

So, uh, as I mentioned, we're gonna be talking about mentorship for

tech teams in early stage startups.

Uh, but before we dive into the, the characteristics of, of effective

mentors, I think it could be interesting to first start with asking our guest

what some of the specific challenges.

Tech leaders face in these early stage environments.

Um, you know, then we can kinda use that as a jump off as to how mentorship

can help address these challenges.

So, Greg, let's, let's start with you and in your experience, you

know, what have been some of the challenges that you've seen with.

People management, uh, as a leader of a growing engineering team, uh,

with some of your past companies?

Uh, sure.

I mean, because you specifically mentioned early, uh, stage, uh, startups there.

Uh, I would probably say the biggest challenge with mentoring in

that environment is finding time.

Uh, because you have so many competing priorities, you've got

so many feature requests coming from your, uh, product team.

Uh, you've got operational issues, you're fighting fires

in your production environment.

Um, being able to find the time to sit down for an hour or, or however long it

is, uh, with a mentee and devote your time, you know completely to that person.

Can be a very big challenge.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so, um, I guess a, a skill that you have to develop as an engineering

leader in an early stage startup is, uh, figuring out, uh, how, how to manage your

calendar, how to, you know, uh, block off, you know, 30 minute, uh, units of time.

Uh, so you can sit down, uh, You know, uh, with, uh, uh, uh, uh, with your staff,

uh, whether that be, uh, one-on-ones or, you know, uh, formal, you know,

training or, uh, mentoring sessions.

Um, mm-hmm.

So, yeah.

Uh, finding time, juggling priorities, uh, um, I think those, that, that is probably

the biggest, uh, impediment, uh, or issue that arises in, in that environment.

For sure.

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's the home run answer right there.

I mean, multitasking with limited resources, you know, how do you, how

do you go about prioritizing people when sometimes you're, you're so, you

know, trying to be heads down and, and focus on your, your own task as well.

Um, What, what about you F Ed?

Uh, I'd like to hear, uh, some of those, some of those people management challenges

that you've, you've experienced.

Yeah, no, I, I agree.

I, I definitely agree.

Um, um, with what was kind of spoken with what Greg said.

I think a big part of it that I found in my career is, You know, finding that

balance, um, of getting your team to kind of, you know, focus on all the, um, you

know, firefighting that needs to happen, but then still keeping an eye on the kind

of largest strategy of what exactly it is that we're trying to accomplish as

a, as a team, as a business, as an org.

Um, I think sometimes, especially in those high growth environments where there's,

you know, everything seems to be breaking all the time, it's very easy to kind of

get into that world of, Hey, we're just.

We're kind of spinning our wheels, you know, um, putting out fires all the time.

And then from a, the issue then becomes like from a career development

perspective, you know, the people on your team don't start, you know,

it's easy for them to start to lose.

Like, hey, you know, what's actually the long-term play here?

What, where am I trying to get to?

You know, am I getting exposed to the right opportunities, projects,

skills, you know, skill development.

Um, Opportunities that will help me get there, rather than just like,

you know, making sure that, that, you know, that the light stays on.

So I think those are some of the things that have kind of been, um, kind of front

and center for me at different points in my career as kind of like people

in, in high growth, uh, environments.

Yeah.

Very nice.

Yeah.

So, you know, some of those, those traits, uh, we just kind of knocked off there.

So, you know, time management, you know, multitasking.

Um, what would you say are, you know, some of these.

Some of these other, you know, skill sets that, uh, translate into folks

that are, uh, effective leaders.

Um, so for example, You know what, I'll, I'll shout out one that, that I've always

felt has been helpful here at Hatch, but, um, showing empathy is one that

immediately kind of, you know, strikes, uh, respect, I think across, you know,

uh, departments from, from one individual to another, trying to relate on a, on a

level that's, um, Uh, you know, trying to put yourself in the shoes of someone else.

Right?

And, uh, sometimes it's easy to to bypass that when you're in your own

lane, but once you're able to kind of level set with, with empathy, um, we've

seen barriers kind of get broken down and, uh, you know, trust is built.

Um, what, what are some of those others that you would say has, has

been effective for you as you know?

As your organization is scaling and, and maybe you're starting to get some of

those other people in place, maybe the time management will always be a thing,

but what, what are some of those other traits, uh, Greg, if you wanna skip

on?

Other than empathy, um, obviously communication skills, right?

Yes.

So to be an effective, uh, teacher requires good communication and listening.

Uh, an ability to adapt to the communication style of the mentee.

Um, some of us learn more quickly than others.

Some of us are, are visual learners.

Some of us need to, um, Uh, good communication skills,

uh, uh, uh, adaptable.

Uh, the empathy sort of comes into play there with the, the ability

to understand how somebody else learns, uh, and, and then adapt your

approach, uh, to the learning style of that, of that, of that mentee.

Um, so communication is certainly one.

I, I've got quite a list of attributes here I could go through, but

don't wanna monopolize time here.

So, um, you know, good communication skills.

Okay.

Yeah, no, I, I, I completely agree.

I think that's probably like one that's, that's very, very top of mind cuz you

know, it kind of sets the stage for everything you do in terms of like, Hey,

how do you teach, how do you make sure that you're passing your knowledge on?

And even the information that you're getting, um, from meetings

that you know, your direct reports may not necessarily be in.

So making sure you're able to kind of, you know, synthesize everything

that's kind of going on in the organization and kind of feed that

flow downward so your team knows.

Why they're doing certain things.

Um, so I think I definitely agree on that one.

I think another one that I would, that I would mention, which kind of relates to

your point, um, Tim, is, you know, Showing that, you know, you're, you're genuinely

interested in the development, um, of your, of the, of the folks on your team.

Mm-hmm.

You know, showing that you actually care about their learning, you care about

their career, you care about helping them get to where, where it is that you're,

you know, that they're trying to go.

I know one of the things that I always did, um, um, at different points in my

career is whenever I bring on someone, um, to my team, you know, You know, different

people might have different opinions about this, but one thing I always tell them is

like, Hey, I understand that this may not necessarily be your forever 10 year job.

Um, but what I want to know is, you know, I.

What are the skills you want to develop in the next 2, 3, 4, 5 years?

And I want to make sure that I'm exposing you to the right opportunities to get

you those skills because right off the bat, what I found is that hey, they

can deduce that, hey, this person is interested, genuinely interested in my

career growth, and I tend to see that.

It, it changes the way that they approach their job.

It's not just, Hey, I'm just here, you know, to just do whatever I'm doing.

It's here.

I'm here to actually learn.

I'm here to actually develop and, you know, my manager or my leader or

whatever is showing a, a genuine interest in me, and that tends to improve.

Performance in, at least in my own experiences.

So I think showing that, um, that interest, that genuine interest in

the people you work with and the people who are reporting to you has

also been the key, key, key piece, um, of, of leadership in my career.

Yeah.

Fa I couldn't, I couldn't agree more.

I can't tell you how many times that's the co that's the opening conversations.

Like I don't expect this to be anybody's last job.

So yeah.

What are we gonna do to maximize this?

I want to make sure I'm giving you opportunities.

I think one of the other ones that can also help establish trust is making

sure that people know that like, I'm okay experimenting and letting you fail.

And we'll do this in a way that's like safe.

Like we're not gonna make a big announcement about a promotion or

a new role until we're confident that like it's gonna be successful.

So let's try it out, let's experiment a little bit, make

sure we get feedback on both ways.

I think that's a another way to sort of establish trust.

Um, but that's, I think a key part and I think.

Saying things like, yeah, I'm here for you for your long-term career

growth is a great way of doing that.

Um,

totally agree.

Yep.

So something that we've seen a lot of, um, well internally

here, and I'd be interested to hear how it translates into to tech teams

that I imagine it's pretty sought after, but continuous learning

is something that, uh, we've seen as a benefit being more and more.

Uh, encouraged or we've seen a lot of technologists kind of like asking

for that or, or wanting to get a little bit more clarity on, on what

those types of benefits look like.

Uh, have you all been in environments or companies where, you know,

they've had a really effective kind of continuous learning program?

I'd love to hear, um, how that's played into, you know, how you bake in mentorship

or, um, has it been something that you've seen frequently or not so much?

Greg, you can, you can kick

off with this one.

Yeah.

So, uh, it's been different at different companies, uh, obviously

at the smaller companies, I would say it's much more self-directed.

It's like mm-hmm.

Uh, we'll get you, we'll get a subscription to Pluralsight and then,

you know, you go off on your own, uh, and train yourself on whatever skill

it is that you're looking to acquire.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I've been in environments, uh, where that is pretty much the

norm, uh, with the larger companies.

They tend to have more formalized training programs.

Uh, some of them, um, certainly have, have sent, uh, um, me and or like entire teams,

uh, to be trained on a specific, you know, programming language or, or, or tool.

Um, you tend to find those kinds of programs at, at

the larger companies mm-hmm.

With the larger training budgets.

Uh, but since we're focused here on small startups, Yeah, the, the

norm, um, that I've seen is, is pretty much, is self-directed.

It's like, you know, here's, here's a membership to some,

uh, you know, training platform.

Uh, you know, take a couple hours, uh, uh, a day, uh, for a couple weeks and.

Get yourself, uh, trained up on whatever skill it is that

you're looking to acquire.

Greg, I think that's one of the shifts I've seen in startup

world is the idea that like, this isn't just something you have to do

on your own time outside of work.

It is the mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

We have the subscription.

Our expectation is that you get to do this during your workday.

We expect you to spend a couple hours a week or whatever.

I think that in and of itself, among small startups is one of the bigger

changes that's been very positive.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And

as long as it's applicable to the role you're performing or it makes

or helps the business Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Correct.

We've actually, uh, yeah.

Implemented, uh, internally here, you know, having our senior folks, you know,

and not, not, uh, Not like on a weekly basis, but maybe like a once a month,

they kind of host like their own kind of internal lunch and learn mm-hmm.

Uh, on something that they're particularly good in.

Uh, yeah.

And it's, it gives them this feeling of, oh, I, you know, they, they like

that idea of, of being a, a leader and, and, uh, uh, you know, it's a.

Uh, you know, it's, it's, it's informal.

You know, we'll cover, cover lunch, but, you know, everybody's

gonna attend for, for an hour.

And listen to Brittany kind of talk through, you know,

how she, she does X, Y, Z.

Um, and so it's a creative way of kind of like tapping your resources to also

continue to train other folks internally, but it's just being intentional about it.

It's a great

example I, I've done exactly this at, at my last

role and several, uh, before it.

In fact, at my last role I did once a sprint.

Uh, uh, uh, brown bags with the entire team.

Mm-hmm.

Where everybody would just come and share some recent project that they worked

on, uh, or talk architectural tool.

Uh, I want to commands.

You know, stuff, stuff like that.

Not knowledge sharing, just between members of the team.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Fa I'm curious, within the data space, um, are there, you know, characteristics of

or, or personality traits that you see?

Uh, with, with folks, you know, coming, coming out of that, uh, you know, coming

in that space that are, uh, looking for specific type of mentorship or, or is

there a certain type of way of connecting with, with, with these individuals or,

um, you know, I, I, I always am curious how that differs from, you know, sales

departments, engineering departments, product departments, but, uh, you know,

you, you work pretty heavily within, you know, within data and anything

specifically that you see that, uh, Uh, tends to mesh well with, with those folks.

Um, I think, like, what I tend to kind of notice is so, because

the data space is, it's such an, it is such an interesting space right now.

You know, everyone, you know, there's a large number of people

kind of getting into it and mm-hmm.

Um, sometimes.

The training that's, that they type, they, they tend to get, um, especially

those who kind of go through the, the mooc, you know, the MOOC courses route or

like, you know, they do like a day one of these day, um, day camp type of things.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I feel like sometimes, you know, when they do come in, when they are

successful at landing a role, there's kind of a lot of things that weren't

kind of covered in those learnings.

Right.

So, you know, a lot of times these courses will kind of tell you, you know, hey,

Here's how you, you know, you write SQL queries, all that kind of stuff, but

then they kind of leave out, um, a lot of times it's not contextualized within

like a living, breathing organization.

So what, what I tend to find is people kind of join an org and then kind of

the problem solving skillset that's kind of needed beyond kind of the

technical skills and even like mm-hmm.

The stakeholder management, managing those type, you know,

managing relationships with.

Colleagues and all that kind of stuff, those tend to be missing.

Mm-hmm.

So then there's, you know, there's usually a gap there.

And then, you know, once people start these roles in data, it's like, Hey, oh,

I thought I was kind of just gonna be sitting, you know, sitting in front of my

computer all day, writing SQL queries and then, but now I actually actually have

to, um, uh, deal with the stakeholder.

I have to kind of manage that whole project end to end, especially in,

in, in, uh, smaller startups where, you know, you don't have like, A

proliferation of different types of teams.

So you're typically handling a project right from start to finish,

so including stakeholder management and all that kind of piece.

So I feel like that, that usually tends to be the area where, um, people

are kind of looking for a lot of mentorship as like, Hey, how do I kind

of deal with a lot of the, the kind of the softer skill things, right?

How do I make sure that hey, I'm, um, setting the right

expectations, scoping this project correctly, not over promising.

All those types of things.

Um, those are, those have typically been the types of conversations that I've had

with people, um, external, you know, to the organizations that I've worked at

who've just kind of broken into the field.

Mm-hmm.

And try to figure out how to manage all the other stuff that comes with working

in the data space outside of like, you know, the technical skills themselves.

Mm.

I

think on that, and Greg, your, your background

as a software engineer, I'm.

Curious, um, if you'd agree with this, but like in my experience, what I

find that I'm mentoring a lot of the people, especially in when they're

in data or infrastructure, maybe not software engineering, is software

engineering best, best practices.

It's like, oh, you know, like, yes, you're doing this data, it's data

engineering, but like yeah, this is sort of a solved problem in software, right?

Yeah.

How do you apply something that, that we've learned in this other space?

And I'm curious, Greg, you know, is that, has that been your experience as well?

Uh,

absolutely that, uh, a lot of that communication is,

uh, Communicating, established, well-defined patterns, best practices.

Uh, I've had several mentors just hand me a book, uh, if you remember, rock

books from back in the early thousands that, that massive red, uh, uh, um, yeah.

So, uh, a lot of that, uh, communication is, uh, well, uh,

you know, as an engineer of.

You know, things that I've, uh, encountered in my, uh, experience, uh,

in the industry, but also, uh, best practices, uh, um, uh, software, uh,

architecture, uh, patterns and things

of that nature.

Yeah, I think the lessons learned thing just to.

Jump in there.

That's another one that I, I love sharing my failures.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, over the course of my career.

Mm-hmm.

Like the first time I made the install script that like deleted the entire

web server and brought everything down and they had to restore from tape.

Um, those types of stories that again, goes back to, you show that, you show

that vulnerability, you show that trust, it builds that relationship again.

Um Right.

It sort of says like, Hey, yeah, I expect, you know, failure's.

Okay.

Just.

Learn from it.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I, I definitely agree.

I definitely agree there.

And I think, um, just kind of to, on that point, I think it does really help.

I, I found, you know, create that space where people are willing to

take, you know, a little bit more risks because knowing that, hey, like, even

if this doesn't pan out, it doesn't necessarily mean that, Hey, I'm gonna

get fired or anything like that.

And I think especially in the space that we work in, um, innovation,

And risks kind of go hand in hand.

So you wanna make sure that, yeah, you're taking calculated risks, but you know

that people feel empowered enough to actually try to, you know, continue to

kind of push the envelope without feeling that, hey, if I screw this up, you know,

the business is gonna, is gonna tag.

Mm-hmm.

Most the truth is, most.

Most things are reversible.

Um, so, you know, you, you always just wanna make sure that people are feeling

empowered enough to, you know, to, to take those innovative steps without

feeling any fear of like, um, yeah.

Any, any fear of like, uh, getting fired or anything like

that.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that's another like, good thing to sort of mentor people on is this

concept of, it's about risk mitigation.

It's not about being safe, it's about understanding.

The choices you're making.

I spend a lot of time, like, it's not the, like, I, I haven't touched

code in a long time, but yeah.

From a coaching and mentoring perspective, it, the lessons are all the same.

It's about mitigating risk or understanding, like, if you

do this, what does that mean?

And, and why would we do that?

Are we saving a penny?

Or are we saving, you know, thousands of dollars?

Um, exactly what's the real cost of that savings?

Mm-hmm.

Um, those types of things that I think people don't really think through.

Greg.

So

on to your point of being able to admit failure, um,

I, I do think another important attribute of a good mentor is low ego.

Mm.

Right.

So, um, your process in deciding to become a mentor should not be ego driven.

It, it should not be driven by, what do I want to get from this relationship?

It really is about serving other people.

Um, and it's ideal for our mentoring is about giving yourself

your time, your mental energy.

In the service of bettering other people.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, what you get in return is the satisfaction of knowing that you've

helped someone else in the furtherance of their, their career goals.

Right?

Yeah.

But it should not be ego driven and all about, you know, what am I gonna get out?

Relationship.

Right.

Although, I will say, I think, um, one of the things I do enjoy is

getting the feedback about myself.

And I think that, again, acting on feedback.

Yes, you're receiving it, it, it is a two-way street and mm-hmm.

Which is still right, it's still low ego.

Right.

It's not about like, oh, I wanna have thousands of people who point

to me and thank me for having helped them and shape their careers.

It's, no, I wanna help people.

That drives me.

That gives me.

Like joy, knowing that there's certain people.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but also learning and, and growing in my own self.

Better yourself.

Right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

I think even oftentimes with these, with these types of relationships, like,

you know, as the mentor, you end up learning a great deal as well, right?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, you know, as you're, especially like for me, like as I, as I interact with

different people who have, who come from different backgrounds, who've kind of had

different experiences, there is a certain level of insight that I get as well.

I say, Hey, like maybe this is, here's a different way to, to think about

something, or here's a different way to do something, which I think helps you just.

Continue to become a better person overall.

Right.

So I think it is a, there is a unintended benefit that does come

out of, um, you know, being, deciding to be a, an intentional mentor.

Sure.

It's a good point.

I

mean, we're, we're all constantly, um, learning from one another.

Yeah, giving and taking knowledge.

You may be a mentor one minute to one person and turn around and then

you're being mentored by, you know, the person in the cube next to you.

Right.

So it's exactly, um, we're all mentors and mentees.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I love the two-way street example.

Um.

I, I am curious because it's something that we've experienced, uh, as a

challenge and you know, I think it's, you know, every company's

dealing with it differently.

But now that we're, you know, most companies are still working

fully remote, you know, and fully distributed teams and, and I think.

There's a level of, um, uh, you know, pers personal touch that's lost, you know,

when we're all just looking at each other through, um, zoom cameras these days.

Um, how, how have you seen, uh, uh, ways to, you know, Kind of encourage

a little bit more of that trust, even though it's a virtual relationship.

Um, you know, whereas in person sitting somebody down, you know, kind of

having that, that connection, uh, it's a little bit easier, I think, to, to

make that, uh, relationship flourish.

But, um, anything that you've seen as, um, helpful for you, uh, you

know, navigating mentorship in a virtual world versus in person?

Uh, so I.

I'm sorry, what was that for?

No, go ahead.

Go ahead,

go ahead, ahead.

Uh, yeah, I mean, I've seen a number of startups that, uh, attempting

to solve the problem in different ways.

Uh, some, uh, startups are doing sites quarterly, annually.

Um, Uh, uh, you know, uh, I, I, I do one-on-ones.

Uh, obviously in a distributed environment, I'm doing one-on-one, you

know, through, uh, you know, teams or, or, or Google Hangouts or what have you.

Mm-hmm.

Um, um, you know, I do, I do find that, uh, realtime communication through,

um, slack or other tools, um, Um, can help to build, uh, relationships.

Um, um, you know, uh, it's, uh, it's not that different than

having a face-to-face conversation with somebody in my, uh, opinion.

Um, but, uh, of course having some face-to-face contact, um, you know,

quarterly or annually, uh, within onsite like retreat retreats or

something.

Absolutely.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Yeah.

I think for me, some of the things that I've, I've, um, I've seen work, um,

effectively in my own experiences has been, yeah, like we are, a lot of us

are kind of limited to having these, um, kind of virtual interactions.

But one, one of the things that I try to intentionally do, um, is to try to.

Build the interaction, you know, with like trying to account for or

understand that individual kind of outside of the work environment.

Like, hey, who, who actually are you?

Right, as a person.

So I think like asking questions around, hey, like, you know, even little things

like, Hey, what did you do this weekend?

Or, you know, talking about like a sports team, if that's something that

they're interested in or I just, you know, trying to kind of figure out ways

to make the relationship a little bit more, um, A little bit more intentional

and just outside of, Hey, like I'm expecting you to deliver X, Y, and z.

I feel like that has kind of helped because what we usually, these are types

of conversations that would be a little bit more natural if we're kind of going

into the same office and I see you on a Monday morning, the natural conversations

like, Hey, what'd you do this weekend?

Blah, blah, blah.

So trying to like intentionally bring some of those kind of cool water cooler type

of discussions into a virtual environment I've seen has, you know, for me, I've seen

kind of helped a lot because it, it gets people to, gets them a little bit more

comfortable, gets 'em a little bit more.

Personal, um, ob obviously within reason.

Um, and then it starts to kind of help that that relationship evolve

beyond just, Hey, we're coworkers, but you know, we actually know

a little bit about each other.

Which kind of helps the communication as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, the, the personal conversations and stuff, I mean, that, that's virtual,

not virtual, it doesn't really matter.

You wanna have mm-hmm.

It gets back to establish trust and, and that personalized relationship taking

interest in what's going on, because what's happening outside of work has an

impact on what's happening inside work.

I just had a whole.

Like, uh, conversation.

I had a one-on-one earlier this week with someone that was 100% about stuff that's

just going on in their personal life.

I'm here to listen.

It's fine.

Um, and, you know, it's, it's nice that we feel comfortable sharing at that level.

Um, I do generally, Genuinely care.

Um, or having a conversation about like, I don't know, like

two weeks, oh, no, whatever.

Uh, on May 4th, uh, one of the, uh, one of my engineers is a big Star Wars nerd.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't know if you can see behind me, I, but I got like empire clerks back.

So we had a whole like, debate about like the, that stuff, but

that was like our entire one-on-one.

I was like, oh crap, I gotta move onto the next thing.

I guess.

Hopefully we didn't have, uh, too much, uh, too much to

actually talk about this week.

Um, but yeah, I think those types of things are important.

Um, the one thing I've yet to figure out, maybe Greg, if you have some concept.

I miss the one, the walking one-on-one.

I used to, when we all worked in the office, I would just go for a walk

outside, get away from the office, just changing the context, not being in the

office and just going on that walk.

Mm-hmm.

Has anyone found something that's sort of similar in the virtual world?

I can't say that I have, I can see that I, I can

tell you the most annoying thing is when somebody

does their one-on-one with me while they're taking a walk in the

park.

Yeah.

You trying to promote the metaverse right now, Mike?

Yeah,

maybe.

Maybe that's right.

I should put my stuff.

I put,

yeah.

The context shift that you get by.

Getting outta your seat and going outside and taking a walk is

difficult to reproduce when you're sitting in front of a computer and,

and in your, in your home office.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's where it comes back to, you know, as a, as a

leader, um, of, of a small company.

You know, obviously every, every company's budget is gonna be different,

but you know, the, the investment in getting folks in person is invaluable.

You can't.

You can put a price tag on it.

Uh, I can tell you firsthand you can.

We, we, we just did this last year, but I, but I'll say that the, the

level of team morale coming out of something like that is just on

another, A level that you'll never.

Replicate in a virtual all hands.

It's just, it's not Absolutely.

It's just a very different thing.

Yeah.

And uh, those are like those magical moments that happen,

you know, from passing folks in, in, in the office hallway, which

you, which we no longer have.

Uh, those little, small moments, those are what you try to

bring back together through.

A quarterly, you know, gatherings or, or, uh, you know, uh, an annual

all hands or something like this.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I, I would say like that is one of the, you know, when we talk about

mentorship, I mean, we can go down a lot of different rabbit holes here,

but this is more around, you know, going down the company culture path

of, you know, how to really build a, um, a strong culture where folks are,

are tight knit and they, they feel like they're a part of something beyond just

the work.

But I think that's important cuz I go back to early in my career.

I think I mentioned this on previous episodes.

My me, my, my mentor, the one that I got early in my career, she, she

was from a, she had a marketing background, she was product background.

Like it, we, she wasn't in my direct line of reporting, um, right.

She gave me, you know, she sort of took me under her wing a little bit, gave me

some good feedback and like, that's the type of stuff that I mean, We were on the

same team, so it wasn't that far apart, but I, that's the type of stuff where

I think that can happen in an office.

So getting people together and getting those connections.

Because one of the things I wanted to ask, this actually leads into my question,

which is, As a manager, I feel my job is, yeah, there's mentoring and coaching

and all of that, but at the same time I can't be this person's career like total

mentor because they report to me, part of their job is learning how to manage up.

Um, I can sort of give them some of that, but I do think having somebody

who's a little external, whether it's another engineer, someone

outside the department, helping and mentoring is an important part.

And I'm curious, like at startups, I struggle with figuring

out how to get that right.

You can't, you're too small to really create a formal mentoring

program, but you wanna encourage it.

Mm-hmm.

And fa Greg, you know, jump in.

Like what are your thoughts on how to get that sort of going beyond

just you, the manager mentoring.

People who report to you mm-hmm.

Uh, in a, in a small startup environment.

So my most recent environment, much larger than a, a typical, uh, startup,

did have a formal mentorship program, and I was a participant in that.

Um, I've not seen that replicated in any of the small startups I've worked at.

Um, so I mean it, I would say it takes intention and takes ownership.

Mm-hmm.

A program like that?

Um, um, it, it, it, I mean, it, it's, it's certainly possible to do,

but it takes some effort and some

intention.

Yeah.

I think like some of the things that I've, I've been able to do, um, my time

at HelloFresh was, um, you know, we didn't have a, um, kind of a formal, we don't

have a formal, um, kind of mentorship program as of yet, but some of the things

that I was, I was able to do was identify.

You know, what are the areas that I feel like this person needs

to, you know, kind of develop in?

Um, and as I mentioned, you know, more often than not, it tends to be, um,

kind of on the, kind of the softer skill side and, and things like that

because with the, with the technical development, I think that's kind

of falls within my purview to make sure that, you know, we're kind of

training up on all that kind of stuff.

But I think with some of the other things, um, what I've

done is kind of identify other.

Either people or leaders in the organizations who may sit in a completely

different function, but they do po possess those skills that I feel like

this person needs to kind of lean into.

Um, and then that way, um, I've kind of set up a few like, kind of informal,

uh, mentorship relationships that way.

So mm-hmm.

In be very clear about to, to the person who's going to be doing the

mentoring, like, hey, Here are some gaps that I feel like this person has.

Um, I've kind of identified them in you and I think you could, you'd

be great in kind of helping kind of coach them up a little bit.

Is this something that you're interested in?

You know, kind of yes or no?

Cause obviously you don't want to just kind of dump, dump something on someone's

plate that they're not interested in.

So I think what has helped me is being very upfront about,

hey, Here's the gap that I think you're able to help them fill.

Here's kind of like what I'm thinking in terms of what, you

know, how that gap can be filled.

Is it something that you're interested in?

So I think that way, like even without a a formal mentorship program, there's

still opportunities for you to kind of informally, you know, set people up with

other leaders in the organization that will help them kind of fill those gaps.

Have either of you looked at, sorry, Tim, uh, have either of you looked

at some of the external places, like maybe not within the company, whether it be, you

know, there's, there's different external.

ADP

list?

Uh, I think maybe one of them.

There's, there's a handful.

Um, say my,

yeah, ran that was I gonna say like, um, externally, you know, direct

them to like, you know, put together a resource guide of like, Hey, like

Rand's leadership is, is one that we.

We frequent.

Um, I, I think I might have mentioned it to, to you, Greg as well, but

you know, it's a great outlet for, uh, folks that are in resource

constrained organizations, right?

But they want to tap into other mentors that are helping with one-on-ones.

Like, oh, how do you do your one-on-ones?

You know, um, you know, could be anything from, from coaching.

I'm, I'm, there's a couple of in here about intros, you know, market

research, product management, staff engineering, startup, cto.

These are all super relevant and um, I always plug them because

I think they've been great.

They've helped us like, you know, uh, get good, good guests on the podcast.

Cuz again, it's all about folks that are interested in giving back.

Um, and I think we have a couple of others that we, that we had,

uh, uh, a short list before.

But yeah, if there's any others that you all have seen that,

that have been effective.

Yeah, feel free to shout 'em out.

Uh, rands is open to any and everyone, right?

So, yeah, I know of several others, but they tend to be, uh, pay for,

uh, owned and managed by, uh, by VCs.

Yeah.

Right.

So, uh, first round, uh, would be, would be one of them, but there are many others.

Uh, yeah, in the same vein, uh, I did, I think, uh, I had coworker was

working with one my last job too.

Um, I know that there are a number of new, um, uh, commercial, uh, services

that will mentor, uh, and a mentee.

Um, but, uh, the free grants, I think is, is I think, the best resource.

I know completely free and open to

anyone.

Um, I'd love to, uh, before we trans transition to the next, um, segment, I'd

love to just hear, you know, in a, in a couple of minutes from, uh, both of you,

you know, who's a mentor that, you know, really helped you out in, in your career.

Um, you know, you don't have to drop their name, uh, but, uh, you know,

a little, uh, little context on, on, you know, somebody that really

played a part in your development.

I'd love to hear the quick hit on.

Hit on it.

Uh, so

if you don't mind my jumping ahead in here.

my, uh, time at life minders uh com, which is a startup in her Virginia.

Oh, cool.

Um, there was, uh, a senior software engineer there who kind took me in, took

me under his wing, showed me the ropes, Provided a lot of technical guidance.

I would say mostly technical guidance, uh mm-hmm.

Related to the projects that I was working on.

Uh, it's an email marketing firm, so I was, you know, building

an SMTP mailer and, and a balanced email management system.

He helped me quite a bit, uh, provided a lot of direction,

guidance on system architecture, design patterns, uh, et cetera.

And I mentioned earlier, let me a bunch of books on different

programing related topics.

Um, he was, I I would say probably the first, uh, and probably the

greatest mentor I've had in my career.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, no, that's, that's, that's, that's really cool.

Um, I think for me, um, I think probably during my time at HelloFresh, so our,

um, our Chief Product Officer, um, kind of same thing, kind of decided

to kind of take me under his wing.

His mentorship was more so as I trans, as I transitioned into leadership.

Um, and kind of people management.

I think that's where his mentorship was kind of invaluable.

Um, cuz you know, he kind of started to get me to understand, especially like as a

technical leader, I think it's something, you know, we could all kind of relate to.

You know, as you start to kind of venture into the world of people management that

where dichotomy between like, hey, how.

How hands on keys, um, how much hands, hands off, keys work do I keep doing

versus like, you know, taking my hands off the keys and kind of letting

my team, you know, trusting my team to kind of do what they need to do.

So I think that was a balance that I was having a hard time kind of striking.

So he was able to kind of, you know, um, help me get through that.

You know, give me some really great tips on, you know, how to think

about my team strategy, how to develop a roadmap, how to kind of.

Intersect myself with all the different leaders in the organization

to ensure that my teams were always delivering things of value.

So I think from a leadership standpoint, I would definitely say that's been one

of my, um, one of my stronger mentors.

Um, I would say another person kind of in the same vein.

Um, and just.

Especially in the sense of kind of getting me to under, you know,

expand my mind to what's possible is actually someone who's actually

been on this show, uh, Nick Petty.

Mm-hmm.

Um, over the cto over at Claire, um, was actually introduced to him through a kind

of a local organization here in Toronto.

Um, I kind of did the same thing of pairing people with

mentors and stuff like that.

And, you know, him and I have been in contact, uh, ever since.

So I think we met during the pandemic and he's been fantastic and, you know,

and kind of getting me to think about my career of be very intentional about

the things that I decide to pursue, the opportunities that I decide

to take and, and things like that.

So I'll say those have been two, probably very, very, um, influential mentors for

me.

And bonus points for giving the, a pair of program plug there with the former guest.

That's awesome.

I love to hear that.

Yeah.

What about you,

Tim?

Uh, I, I know there, i, is there a mentor or anybody in your, in your

background?

Yeah, so, uh, mine would've been more around entrepreneurship.

So my, um, first job out of college, I met my, my first business partner.

Uh, his name's Chad.

He actually lives out in, uh, Southeast Asia, uh, out in Thailand.

But, um, he was, you know, we, we both met in a, in an agency.

Um, but prior to that, he was kind of running his own little.

Thing as a young entrepreneur.

Recruiting nurses from Southeast Asia, kind of bringing 'em into the states

and um, you know, he had just kind of jumped out of his comfort zone.

Right.

And he had kind of been doing that for a year or so.

And, um, you know, I came into, into this work environment and I was,

you know, pretty, you know, pretty nervous coming right outta school.

And, uh, we would spend a lot of time after work just kind of brainstorming.

Uh, he would tell me about his travels and some of the stuff that he had done.

And, um, his, his big advice to me was, you know, You know, start, start being

comfortable with being uncomfortable, you know, like get outta your comfort zone.

Um, and the sooner you can do that, the more doors will open for you.

And so sure enough, uh, we, we came together and, and, uh, he convinced

me to, to go out to Indonesia and start up, uh, an offshore recruiting

company, uh, when I was 25.

And, uh, it was the, the most uncomfortable thing

I'd ever done at that time.

But, um, I firmly believe I wouldn't be, uh, in, in this, uh, you know,

running a small business if I hadn't.

Kind of met him and him playing that, that kind of integral piece in my life.

So, um, yeah, and I'm still friends with him today, and his, his kids are, are, you

know, little wit fighters out in Thailand right now, and I keep tracking them.

And, uh, but yeah, he's someone that's, you know, stuck with

me for, for a long time.

And it's, yeah, it's, it's something that I've always, uh, leaned into,

uh, being, being comfortable with, being uncomfortable, you know?

Well, let's, let's transition, uh, into this final segment.

Uh, this is, uh, this is a fun segment.

We call the five Second Scramble.

Uh, this is gonna be a quick, you know, rapid fire q and a, uh, trying to keep

the, the answers under five seconds.

If you can.

Uh, if you can't, uh, we will, uh, be, uh, be gentle with you.

We won't airhorn you and, and, uh, or be you off stage.

Um, but, uh, I'm gonna go ahead and, and start with, uh, with,

um, Let's, uh, let's jump into it.

So, okay.

What is your favorite aspect about working for an early stage startup?

Um, opportunity for innovation.

The canvas is blank and you can paint it almost however, which way you want.

Oh, it's beautiful.

What would you describe as your ideal startup culture?

Um, egoless environment where, you know, everybody's open to feedback.

Everybody's open to working together and, you know, building something really cool.

Yeah.

What, uh, professional advice would you give your younger

self just starting your career?

Oh, man.

Uh, problem solving is probably the most important thing.

Um, Outside of the, the technical skills and all, and even the soft skills, having

an aptitude for problem solving is key.

Do you have a favorite book or podcast on

leadership that you lean into?

Uh, ooh.

Leadership, I recently read Right of A Lifetime by Bob Iger.

Great book.

Great book.

Great book.

Great book.

Yeah.

I think that's been, that's been one of the more, um, The

more helpful ones recently.

Yep.

Ba back in the sea to CEO too, isn't he?

He is.

He is.

He is.

So Bob, Bob replaced Bob.

Bob,

exactly.

Um, what do you love most about yourself?

Um, wow.

Okay.

I would say.

I think Infu glass, I'm a glass half full type of person, so enthusiastic.

Optimistic.

Um, I, you know, thinking we can, we can definitely do anything,

um, that we put our minds to.

And yeah, I think that that's probably my favorite trait about myself.

Hey,

need, need more of that.

I, I love it.

Yeah.

Um, what did you, um, have for breakfast this morning?

Uh, I had an egg sandwich and a cup of coffee.

Did you

go, uh, cheese or any meat on it?

No cheese.

Just straight.

Straight eggs.

Straight

eggs.

Yeah.

Um, what's the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed?

Ooh, probably a fanny pack from back in the day.

Back in the day.

Yeah.

A strong one.

Yeah.

I'm pretty sure those are back in

style too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

These days they're like all across.

Yeah.

It's uh, it's a whole thing.

Um, what, um, uh, who would you say, now that I know

you're a sports fan, who, who would you say is, uh, the Greater goat?

Uh, Michael Jordan, tiger Woods, or Tom Brady?

Ooh, I'm a Giants fan, so definitely not Tom Brady.

Um, so I would probably say Michael Jordan.

Yeah.

Okay.

Jor

Jordan, or Kobe?

Uh, I think Jordan was before my time, so probably Kobe.

I, I, I would lean towards Kobe cuz I saw him play.

Yeah,

that sounds like a Lakers fan.

Um, what is a charity or, or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Um, a friend of mine started a, a charity a few years

ago called Youth in Diaspora.

Um, the goal of it is trying to, you know, fund educational in initiatives back in

our, in our local country of Nigeria.

Mm-hmm.

So he's been kind of pushing a lot on that front and helping kids, um, in very,

very, um, dire se, um, circumstances, you know, get access to education.

So that's, that's been one that has been near and dear to my

heart.

Awesome.

Yeah, we, we love to, uh, plug these philanthropies as well in our, uh,

when we post the, the show notes, so we'll, we'll get that info from you.

Awesome.

Um, if you had one day left to live, would you rather spend it with

Morgan Freeman or Denzel Washington?

Ooh, that's a tough one.

I think both of them are very, wow.

There'll be lots to learn, lots to discuss.

Um, but I would probably say if I had to pick Denzel Washington, I think

I'm, I'm more of a fan of his, yeah.

Okay.

See, there's a subliminal message here too, which means you like to, you,

you're gonna go out hard on your last day, whereas, yeah, Morgan, Morgan

gonna put you, put you down slowly.

It's,

it's

your last day.

What's left to learn?

I mean, come on.

Exactly.

Night on the town, Mike got gun guns blazing.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yep.

Um, What is one country that you would recommend everyone

travel to once in their life?

Peru.

Peru.

I was there a few years ago.

Um, did the whole Machu Picchu hike.

It was beautiful.

Oh, sweet, sweet.

I'd recommend it.

Yep.

Awesome.

That's on the list.

That is, uh, that was a great answer.

All right.

Good stuff.

That's a wrap for, for ufa.

Awesome.

You are all done.

Um, Greg, let's get to you.

Uh, are you ready?

All right, let's do it.

All right.

Um, what professional advice would you give your younger self if you

were just starting out your career?

Um, Take better care of your health.

Uh, as a programmer for 30 years, I've done quite a bit of damage

to my wrists and have had had surgery and to the tendons in my forearm where I also

had surgery about seven, eight years ago.

And in addition to multiple, uh, steroid injections, so, uh, take

good care of your wrist, forearm, if.

As a programmer, you're set up for petitive

older.

If, if you're feeling pain in your wrist and pain in your forearm, you

need to see a doctor immediately.

Mm-hmm.

And you need to, uh, you need to jump on it quickly, uh, and resolve it, or

the pain and suffering will compound year over year, over year until you

get to the point of needing surgery.

And that's what happened in my case, or just becoming a manager.

Or, or, or just transition to manager.

Absolutely.

Uh, good, good advice.

I think the fundraising landscape has, has changed quite a bit.

I think, uh, purse strings are, have tightened, uh, quite a bit.

So I, I would say it's probably on the, on the, uh, fundraising side,

although, I mean there seem to be certain businesses, anything AI related, which

seem to be getting funded fairly easily.

But, um, you know, a lot of other areas that, that.

Um, and, uh, yeah, so I would, I would say the fundraising.

Yeah, I agree.

Um, what would you say is a company value that is important to you?

A

company value?

Um, It's, it's a common thread.

Uh, it's probably run through the last three or four

companies is act like an owner.

Um, I've encountered quite a few engineers, uh, who don't take

ownership, don't take pride in their work, um, uh, you know, throw it

over the wall and consider it done.

And, and, you know, after that, um, act like an owner.

Cool.

What, um, Uh, what would you say is a, you know, a book

or, or a podcast on, on leadership that has resonated with you?

Um, hopefully I won't get too much flack for saying prop G, but,

uh, it's, uh, you

know, it, it, it's one of, one of the podcasts that I listen

to on a fairly, uh, regular basis.

Just has a lot of, I mean, a lot of lived experience, uh, with startups.

Um, in particular.

Um, so I, I think there's a lot to learn there.

Cool.

What is a, a charity or corporate philanthropy that's,

that's near and dear to you?

Uh, I think I would've to say the Trevor Project, uh, which helps,

uh, at risk, uh, L G B T, uh, q uh, kids.

Um, I, I've been a donor for some time and, um, yeah, it's a, it's a worthwhile.

Worthwhile

charity.

Awesome.

Yeah.

We will also post that in, uh, in our show notes as well.

Um, all right.

Lighthearted Twist.

Favorite Cereal

Captain Crunch.

Oh, strong.

That's right.

With the, with the Crunch Berries.

With the Crunch Berries.

With the crunch berries,

please.

Yes.

Yes, please.

Yeah.

Um, if you could live in a fictional world from a book or a

movie, which one would you choose?

Oh gosh.

Um, uh, it's gonna be science fiction, of course.

Um, I, I, I would, I guess I would say Star Wars.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Mike, do you validate that answer?

I mean, I love the world.

I don't know that I wanna live in it.

It's, it's pretty and it's sturdy.

I'm probably gonna die.

That's,

I kinda like avatar.

Well, the avatar world, um, do you have a celebrity doppelganger?

Did anybody watch Alan Bele 20 years ago?

Yes, I would get stalk on the street literally every single day.

I don't even have to say the name, do I?

I mean,

girl search.

You might have to, but,

oh, okay.

Uh, there was a character, uh, I think, uh, Billy was the name of the character.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, I would literally get mistaken for that guy all the time.

That's fine.

That's great.

Um, do you have any phobias or irrational fears?

Um, that's, there is, uh, uh, I would say I'm not, uh,

super comfortable speaking to large

crowds.

Hey.

Yeah.

Number one, number one, fear out there.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, it was, uh, I got through it, but it was not easy.

Good for you.

I, in the same way, I'm, I'm nervous, even just with three people here, so,

um, it's, uh, it's a common trait.

Um, If you, uh, could have any superpower, what would it be?

Um,

the

ability to print money on demand.

Gonna run some economies,

huh?

That's solid.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's great.

That's the first time.

Heard that answer?

That's great.

Mm-hmm.

Um, all right.

And last one, you know, with Bob Iger on the Mind, what is a

favorite Disney character of yours?

Ooh.

Um, that, that is tough.

Um, let's see.

Uh, it's been quite a while.

Um, I'm, I, I think I'm gonna have to go.

It dolled up.

Yeah.

Donald Duck.

Uh, love, love the voice.

Yeah.

That's a classic.

That's a, that's an original too.

It's not, uh,

love the love, love the sassy, you know, the sassiness

and, and, and the voice.

Yeah.

You can't steal like, some new, new like Han Solo, kind of new retro Disney.

Character.

I went.

That's why I Odd answer.

Yeah.

Um, that's it guys.

That's a wrap.

Um, thank you both so much for, for joining us.

You've been fantastic guest and again, tackling a topic that is super important.

Um, uh, for technologists, not only in startups, but you know, working within

any environment really, with mentorship.

So thank you both for, for joining us on the the Pair program.

Thanks.

Thanks.

Thanks so much.

Thank

you.

Great.