Frontiers: Exploring the World of Data | The Dunes of Design | Beyond the Program

Tim Winkler: 00:00:00

Hey, listeners, Tim Winkler here, your host of The Pair Program. We've got exciting news introducing our latest partner series Beyond the Program. In these special episodes, we're passing the mic to some of our savvy former guests who are returning as guest hosts, get ready for unfiltered conversations, exclusive insights, and unexpected twist as our alumni pair up with their chosen guest. Each guest host is a trailblazing expert in a unique technical field. Think data, product management, and engineering, all with a keen focus on startups and career growth. Look out for these bonus episodes dropping every other week, bridging the gaps between our traditional pair program episodes. So buckle up and get ready to venture Beyond the Program. Enjoy.

undefined: 00:00:51

Hello

Jazmin Furtado: 00:00:53

everyone. And welcome to Frontiers, Exploring the World of Data. Frontiers dives into how people are using their data science minds to shape organizations and change the landscape outside of big tech. In each episode, we explore the far reaching corners of the world of data. My name is Jazmin and I'm your host for this series. I myself am passionate about empowering people to make data driven decisions, and I'm always amazed at how others do it every day. With that, I want to introduce our guest today, Ege Yurdagul. Ege is the Director of Strategic Planning and Data Analysis at Revival Rugs. A company that sells rugs made with traditional techniques and natural and recycled materials from all over the world. Revival Rugs works with artisans and collectors in remote cities notable for their weaving industries. And they operate internationally with offices in Istanbul, Casablanca, Mumbai, and Oakland. In fact, Iggy is dialing in from Turkey to be with us today. A little bit of a time difference. Before Revival Regs, Ege worked in finance at various companies as an analyst, senior business development associate, corporate finance manager, head of finance, and also worked for a bit as a business development manager at Nike. At Revival, he focuses on both financial and operational planning, and I'm excited to get into how he translates his finance and data background to the design industry. So thank you so much for being with us here today. Again, really looking forward to our conversation.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:02:27

Thank you so much. Um, it's my pleasure. And thank you so much for the kind introduction and also being brave enough to. Try and pronounce my last name.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:02:37

Thank you. I hold that as a badge of honor.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:02:40

It went way better than I expected. Thank you so much.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:02:44

Yes. I'll do a great start. So we'll start off with our icebreaker question. I like to use, um, so our icebreaker question today. Related to tangentially related to design. If you had the ability to be any kind of artist professionally, what art form would you choose and why? So, when I thought about this question, I initially thought a dancer would be a good choice. Uh, we want because of the thought of, you know, expressing myself through movement. I also thought it would be a good way to keep myself moving and keep myself active. Give me an excuse to, you know, get up and move around every once in a while. And then I thought it'd be really cool to also be a fashion designer. So I, if you could be a, if there was an art form that combined dancing and fashion design, I think that'd be great. Maybe just like design, like a dance of sorts where you can like also work on the costumes. I don't know. I think fashion's really cool. It's like art that moves with you. And I, it's really. I think it's really cool to be able to express yourself through clothes as well. You can relay and convey a lot of information in something as simple as the clothes you wear. So yeah, that would be my answer. It's a convoluted answer because I, there's a couple that stood out to me.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:04:04

I really think that you would love one of my colleagues here in Ensembl. She is our head buyer for winter drugs, and she also helps a lot with merchandising and styling and She is a highly trained dancer. So Yeah, I really think like you two would hit it off

Jazmin Furtado: 00:04:27

Oh my God, that's awesome. She has like the best skillset. That's awesome. I'd love to hear more about her offline.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:04:34

Yeah, absolutely. Um, as to me, I think I would have gone with music if I could. Um, well, this is kind of like a cop out answer to me because I used to actually play the guitar for a while when I was younger. Um, I just feel like it speaks to me on a level that other art forms Maybe not necessarily don't, so I don't know. Um, I probably listen to music for like hours every single day and it makes me feel things that I really like. So, um, I really would have been, um, like I really would love if I could be able to do the same for other people as well. So I want to go with music for that one.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:05:24

What, what sort of, okay, so guitar, that's a legit instrument. What, uh, what sort of genre of music would you play?

Ege Yurdagul: 00:05:38

That's a difficult one. Um,

Jazmin Furtado: 00:05:40

classical punk rock. Was it like, or it's just, it's a mix of a bunch of different genres.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:05:51

Oof. Um, I actually have never thought of this, but, um, I don't know, um, maybe go with rock, but I listened to a lot of hip hop. So, I mean, would have been a difficult transition, I guess, but like, I'd probably. Would I love to do both?

Jazmin Furtado: 00:06:11

That's a, uh, those are, so when I was doing, uh, so I played the violin for quite a few years and I was taught in like the classical style, so like classical music, I was really into that. And I really appreciate that now, but I'm seeing more and more people do like violin and like pop music, which is a cool, like mix that I haven't really like seen too much, um, well, growing up, I didn't, so I just, you know, when you learn an instrument and what. What music you like, learn that instrument in can be different from the music that you really like playing. So that's just curious there. All right. So with that, let's dive into our main topic today. So, we're chatting about the design industry, so 1st, wanted to start off by asking if you could explain a little bit, you know, what the design industry is. You know, a little bit about, um, you know, revival rugs, how you got into the industry at large. Can you just walk us through, you know, how you got to where you are?

Ege Yurdagul: 00:07:16

Right. Um, so as you mentioned, I did start off, um, doing M& A advisory, mergers and acquisitions. Um, so I did work both in the advisory side and then I did, um, work in the private fund as well.

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So,

Ege Yurdagul: 00:07:36

And I, I guess like I have always been a very focused specialist working on building both commercial and financial models, um, which turned out to be a really good thing to be a specialist in. Because, um, when I moved on from the M& A industry, I got a job at the European headquarters of Nike in the Netherlands. And what I did there was I mostly worked with the Nike store partners, which are independent companies that, um, operate Nike stores across Europe, or rather the entire, um, EMEA region. So I did work there and I mostly focused on long term planning and, uh, probably like for the first time in my career, I also got involved with execution on a very regular basis. So that was pretty fun. Um, and afterwards I came back to Turkey, worked for A very large Turkish oil company. Again, I did long term planning, um, very much. So relying on my expertise, um, again, uh, which was financial modeling and commercial as well, um, that was like one of the bigger things that I have done there afterwards, I did co found a startup that unfortunately did not take off. I did work on that for like maybe a month and a half years or even like two years. Um, it was a good idea, I think, but it just didn't pan out. Um, it happens, I guess, uh, which led me to revival around two and a half years ago. Um, to be honest, I did not get into the design industry, um, with the intention of, you know, uh, picking the industry kind of just happened to. Um, get introduced to the co founders. Uh, we really hit it off. They were looking for someone with, um, my skillsets. So it was a good match. And it was only after that, uh, that I came to, you know, uh, learn about and appreciate, um, And also like back then, Revival Rugs was also not very focused on or rather like not heavily focused on as heavily focused on as it is right now. Uh, we did, um, focus on selling one of a kind and vintage rugs mostly and our own designs were just taking off. But in the last couple of years, It's now has become our main focus. And we, like, since then we really have become a much more design focused company.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:10:36

So you are, so rival rugs, they design their own rugs. So that you said there's different categories, right? There's one of a kind vintage rugs. Are they both being designed in house? There's like a subset that's designed in house by the design team. You know, how much are you like making these rugs yourselves? Yeah.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:10:58

Right, so, um, one of a kind drugs are, it's a mouthful, but, um, I think it's a pretty self explanatory name. Um, they are drugs that we procure from both Morocco and Turkey, mostly, and sometimes from India as well. Um, they can be either new, or old. Or, uh, vintage hand woven or hand knotted rugs. Um, and yeah, as the name implies, they are all unique in the sense that, you know, um, either in shape, size, color, and since like they're all hand woven by, um, different people, almost like all of the one of a kind rugs that we carry. So, um, it's an entirely, not an entirely different business, but, um, it is pretty Pretty distinct in the sense that you're dealing with a huge number of products. Um, whereas for drugs of our own design, we rely on the expertise of our design team, and then, you know, um, we try to create. Best sellers and then focus on marketing them better. So, uh, that's a different business. Um, I would say, but yeah, that has become our, our primary focus in the last couple of years and it has really been a fun journey and I was lucky enough to be there for, you know, uh, the kickoff of the transition. Uh, that we had as a company, so yeah,

Jazmin Furtado: 00:12:46

so you've really seen it from from a younger stage to a more mature stage has been a lot of change happening with the company over the last couple of years. Can you talk a little bit to your, you know, the scope of your. Your role within the company, so, you know, you're looking at strategy and you're looking at operations, you know, you've been in long term planning field, you know, for a long for the majority of your career. What does that look like at revival for you? Like, what is your scope of responsibility?

Ege Yurdagul: 00:13:20

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, since we're a small team, and we used to be even smaller. Um, two and a half years ago, which is like half of the company's, um, lifespan, everyone really just takes on a lot of responsibilities that do not necessarily match their job description, which also was the case for me. And it allowed me to just get involved in a lot of different areas. And over the years, I came to mainly be in charge of our demand planning. So ordering, um, rather planning, uh, the procurement of both our winter drugs and also our non monopokines, as we say, or rather like mass produced drugs. Um, also long term planning. Um, that is still very much one of my main focuses, uh, both financial and commercial. Uh, modeling of our business and well, just, um, historical analysis, just assisting other teams with, uh, the insights that we drew draw from the data that we have and up until very recently, I was also responsible for structuring our data, just, um, cleaning it up, you know, um, making sure that we have everything that we need in preparation for. The jump that we still expect to make, um, because we still do not have a very like formal structure, even though we have all the data fields, um, ready to go. It's still, you know, an ongoing process. Um, Yeah, to be honest, like I maybe like half of the time I just end up helping people out on random stuff. So it's kind of difficult to, you know, list all the small things that I do, but yeah, mostly, um, it's pretty much these stuff.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:15:39

Yeah, it seems like You know, and I think in with a lot of small companies, you do find yourself wearing a lot of different hats you can imagine, you know, in addition to the financial planning aspect, there's also, you know, inventory management that you have to do and optimization there. It's also it's just interesting to hear how, you know, with even a smaller company, you still have decisions you have to make and you're still able to use data to help inform those decisions. Outside of, you know, the strategic financial planning and operational planning, you also have the design aspect that you have to take into consideration when it comes to planning. Because at the end of the day, you know, you do have a product and you want to make sure that your products are, um, are meeting the demands of the customer. So you do have some sort of loop there from the design standpoint. Can you speak a little bit to. That, you know, what is that feedback loop or what, what interaction do you have with the designers or how are you able to inform, uh, the design process or the more artistic process of the company?

Ege Yurdagul: 00:16:49

Right. Um, so our design process is still, uh, very much so reliant on the creativity of our design team. Um, and like, I'm really glad to be able to say that, um, I think they're like one of the best in the industry. Um, led by like absolutely one of the most experienced, uh, people that have been doing this for a very long time. So, um, I would say that is still the engine, but how we work with them is so we mostly help them understand how things went historically, for example, um, for every single launch, we do post launch analysis that includes, um, Using normalized data, um, and by that, I mean, you know, for example, like sales in the X days following the launch or, you know, um, adding context to it in terms of the relative marketing spans compared to our other product launches. Um, seasonality, what kind of campaigns, uh, we have run in that period. So, um, you know, it has a lot to do with just cleaning up adjusting and normalizing, uh, the data. So, um, we do that and we try to dissect The stuff that went right and understand what went wrong, um, draw conclusions from there. And for example, if we identify a problem, we communicated in the best way possible to the design team so that well, most of times, um, they do draw their own conclusions. We just try to set them up to be in the best position to be able to do that. Um, which also involves a lot of. Um, tailoring how we present data. So, for example, for design team, that would mean, like, probably mean that they're obviously, um, very visual learners by nature. So, for example, when we collaborate with them, Most of times we tailor our reports to be like extremely visual, uh, with all the images that represent, um, the data that we are trying to convey. So, um, most of times, um, they end up, you know, uh, seeing patterns that we've, we're We're able to do, and, um, it's a very collaborative process, uh, which I really enjoy. So for example, uh, with the design team is one of our main focuses, and we also, um, help them with strategic planning when it comes to which products to prioritize, um, that are in our pipeline. So most of times. They do have a lot of projects ready to go, um, or rather like in the final stages of production, but we help them with which ones to prioritize, uh, depending on our financial needs. Um, what we, you know, um, try to do for that period. So, um, it's not exactly. Like, I would love to be able to tell you that we do have an algorithm that just, you know, predict people's, um, choices and, you know, like what they respond to best. But, um, most of the time it just comes to understanding the context because, um, with design, it's always going to be, you know, there's always going to be the human element that's kind of difficult to, um, represent in numbers. Because, um, I mean, pretty much all our designs. Um, and it is very difficult to, you know, isolate some of the variables and say, for example, this thing went wrong because it doesn't always work like that. For example, there have been a lot of products that we just loved. And really expected to do extremely well. And turns out people do not just respond to them the way we expect them to. And the opposite have, has been the case as well. Like we ended up not investing very heavily in some products that we, uh, did launch in the past and they just turned out to be bestsellers.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:21:44

Is there like something that was surprising to you that was like, oh, we didn't, so it was, was there, is there, is there one that comes to mind or one that you was like, oh, I did not expect that pattern or that design or that, uh, characteristic to be,

Ege Yurdagul: 00:21:57

um, yeah. So, for example, well, this is, I guess, kind of specific to the industry, but what's ended up happening after we started to put, put, um, a lot of emphasis on our own designs. Yeah. We saw that beige rugs or cream rugs turned out to be our best sellers by far, uh, which was kind of, which, which wasn't something that we expected because, uh, up until then we, you know, have been focusing on one of the kinds which are extremely colorful, um, different in design, but you know, um, I guess that also has something to do with catering to two very distinct sets of customers in our case. So, um, for. For example, for the rug industry, um, in particular, that would be the utilitarian customer who values, you know, durability, affordability, um, convenience, above other stuff. And then you have the customers who value the design elements, you know, the story behind the product sustainability. So more. Intangible stuff in general. So, um, you know, when catering to catering to those very separate customer segments, um, it's kind of difficult to know what to expect when you're launching a new product, because we're still trying to like strike a balance between the two. For example, we do have washable rugs, which are, you know, mostly a product that more utilitarian customers are attracted to just because of the you can just like drop them in the washing machine. Um, well, technically, you could also wash with interact as well, I guess, but, um, you know, it's just more convenient, um, for the utilitarian customer. But what we try to do is we try to bring those two worlds together by, for example, um, introducing handmade washable rugs. Um, which are, you know, um, made in a single way by artisans in relatively small batches. So we also try to experiment with stuff, um, which is also really interesting in terms of being able to see all of those data, because when you experiment as much as we do, or rather we have been doing in the past couple of years, you just have, um, so much information that you can compare and draw conclusions from. Um, so yeah, it's things are still, you know, um, you know, phase that we have a lot of room to grow and we have been growing like extremely fast in the past couple of years, like we more than doubled our volume last year. So it has been fun. Um, especially for me personally, cause I'm in a position to be able to see. Everything representing like everything that we do represented in, um, the data. So, yeah, it is something that I really like about my job.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:25:24

Yeah, there's there are a couple things that you're saying there that I thought are super interesting that the fact that when you're working with the designers, there's only so much you can do. There's only so much you can capture with the data that you get. I mean, we're able to get so much information. From, you know, from technology, we're able to, you know, check who's buying what and when and what seems to be sticking points. But. At the end of the day, you can't explain everything using data and you have to figure out what, where's the demand in the noise that where's the signal in the, in the noise that you really want to extract that would be actually valuable in order to relate to your designers. And then, when it comes to the design process, it's not like you are dictating, you know, hey, make the rug's beige, you know, you're just letting them know, um, the insight so that they can. Make the decisions for themselves. You know, from what I heard, there's like a, you know, a backlog of products that they're kind of putting together and experimenting with and your feedback kind of gives them, you know, directions and tweaks to maybe what they are considering to help, you know, hone in on what designs they should maybe look at doing next. I mean, that seems, you know, looking at the scale of it all. I mean, how many, how many products are you having to do this with? Like, how do you wrap your head around? Like, how do you manage? That feedback loop for all these products, because you have thousands of products, right?

Ege Yurdagul: 00:26:45

Right. Um, and just to maybe correct one small thing, make the rugs beige was actually one of the things that we have said in the past. Um, based on how much our design team, Dislikes, um, you know, blend there and how well they perform in reality. So, um, that's actually come out of our much, um,

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um,

Ege Yurdagul: 00:27:13

so yeah, I mean, Again, um, you know, what we love does not necessarily translate into what does best, does the best, so,

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um,

Ege Yurdagul: 00:27:25

we try to just, um, match the customer's demands with what we supply. So, are

Jazmin Furtado: 00:27:33

you, yeah, are you providing this feedback on like a individual, you know, on an individual basis when you can't, when you're dealing with a scale that you're dealing with a number of rugs, like, how are you able to communicate and convey, like, the most important, like, Um, pieces of information over to the team,

Ege Yurdagul: 00:27:51

right? So, um, we used to do that, um, individually, just, uh, present regular reports, uh, to different functions in the team. And a while back, maybe a year ago, we did start using a data visualization tool so that we could. Demarketize the data that we have been working with in a way that everyone would have been able to play around with it. Um, look at different aspects, you know, look at, um, different dimensions. So, um, that has been a large step in both, you know, uh, reducing our workload just in general, um, since people were now able to just, um, do their own analysis. And it also has helpful, has been helpful, um, In a way that just reduces the time that we spend going back and forth, trying to understand what is going wrong, what is going on with the business, since people can now just, um, look at data first, uh, on their own, um, at least come prepared. And then we can go over, um, our

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respective

Ege Yurdagul: 00:29:12

hypotheses. And then work our way from there. So, um, yeah, that was a, that was a great development. Um, step in every right direction.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:29:24

Yeah. Data transparency is like so important and it's not just for the people that are dealing with the data all the time. It's like really needed for the people who, you know, don't or not working in the data that need to be able to, you know, look at it from their point of view. From like translate it into their words to be able to, you know, derive insights that are valuable for them.

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Yeah.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:29:45

Yeah, yeah. Um, but also there are like certain challenges that comes with growing at a really high pace, I would say. I mean, uh, don't get me wrong. I love the fact that we have been growing, um, like in a crazy, uh, pace, but There are also challenges that come with it. Like it is very difficult to look at, um, historical data over time and try to understand what has been going on. Because obviously when you're growing, like, um, at 200%, for example, um, higher, actually, um, it's very difficult to compare the data that come from different periods. So again, it boils down to just adding context and. Just enriching it with additional insights so that it is more, like, it is easier to understand and, yeah, um, interpret.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:30:53

So is looking at your historical data actually, you know, is it useful to some extent, or do you just say, it's, it's really hard to predict the future. So we're just going to. You know, our, our, our estimates, our forecasts aren't super, um, reliant on historical data. Like, how much are you actually using historical data when you're doing your forecast? Because, you know, like you said, it's, you're, you're growing so rapidly. How do you predict that?

Ege Yurdagul: 00:31:20

I mean, um, especially for demand planning, um, it is very difficult. Especially for new products like products that we haven't even launched, for example, um, even before a product is first introduced on our website, we usually. end up having placed three orders by then, uh, on a monthly basis. So, uh, we always do that blind. Um, you know, um, which is really challenging. We usually end up having to rely on a lot of benchmarking trying to look at the cross sections of Uh, the data points that we keep for every individual rug. Um, but then again, um, it doesn't always necessarily pan out, but I mean, it's kind of the law of averages, I guess. So, um, at the end of the day, like one of them does better than what, uh, what we expected to, um, do, and then another just, you know, Does not perform to our expectations and it is difficult. Um, I mean, extremely difficult, I would say, but for example, um, in terms of long term planning, that is one of the things that I really take pride in. Uh, for example, last year, um, a year, which we grew over 200 percent annually, I was able to actually forecast our revenues within like a 1 percent range. error margin with six more months to go in the year. So, um, that was fun. Um, I mean, maybe like 50%.

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I

Jazmin Furtado: 00:33:08

was like, you know, when it comes to forecasting, you can only be so confident, right?

Ege Yurdagul: 00:33:15

Right. Um, but okay. So what is actually very different, uh, different from My time in MNA is that back then I used to do everything at a very high level. So I would always have maybe two weeks or like four weeks worth of time, uh, to start working on a project from scratch, try to understand the business in its entirety. Uh, try to get a feeling of his operating model, um, his operations, and then just translate all of those information, uh, to a financial model that we can then use to, uh, forecast future cash flows. So, um. I mean, it's, it's, I'm going to say like, it's a very transferable skill that still house me, um, to this day, but for example, in my current position, I'm way better equipped to understand what has been going on historically and what we expect to do or what we expect to change in the future. I am involved with a lot of different teams within the company, um, which is something that I kind of frowned upon in the past. Like I, I didn't like the fact that like people had all those, you know, big meetings with like a bunch of other teams. Like I, I didn't really see the point, but again, like back then I was always working in like teams of two, maybe three, even though I was working in a company with like thousands of employees. Yeah. Uh, it would always be small teams, but, um, like today it's exactly the opposite. Like, again, like I actually have a small team that I work with, but, um, the whole company is always in sync. Um, and maybe it's just, you know, um, I actually haven't been working in, you know, um, situations like this for a long time. Even my, uh, prior jobs, I always. Worked with smaller teams, uh, didn't really talk to this many people, but, um, it just helps to know the context and be able to adjust stuff accordingly. So, for example, um, you know, when forecasting revenues. Obviously we look at how our product mix is going to be changing in the future, how it has been changing, how that affects other stuff, like our conversion funnel or our AOVs, like average order values. Um, so a lot of thinking goes into like small stuff like that. And in the end, even if like you do not get every single small thing right, I just, I mean, they're all a linear function of. Each other anyway, so, um, kind of balance itself out, um, which is why we haven't able to accurately forecast our future operations so far. Um, but yeah, it is difficult when you're growing at a very fast pace. Yeah. I mean, I know for a fact that like way, um, larger companies with way smaller Um, growth rates have been struggling with it. So, yeah, but I mean, the challenge is, the challenge is fun.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:36:55

The fact that you're able to, you know, with a smaller company, you know, leverage data in the way that you have been to be able to, you know, have, Accurate predictions to be also, you know, provide enough transparency about what's going on to inform everyone in the company, you know, to and bring in the designers or, you know, to make sure that information is being provided and shared with them as well. Like, that speeds that speaks accolades to, you know, that how well that how well the company is really embracing technology. And using it in the, in the right ways, uh, as you look to the future of the design industry, I mean, more and more companies, I mean, every company nowadays is seen as a tech company, right? Like, at the, at the heart and core, like, everyone, every company is a tech company. Do you see. As we move forward, the design industry really embracing that really using, you know, more data in in similar ways that, you know, revival is to be able to inform not just it's, you know, operations and, uh, and, you know, inventory management and financial long term forecasting, but also, uh, to to, you know, inform the design process. Or do you see kind of a plateau of sorts?

Ege Yurdagul: 00:38:16

Well, in terms of tech adoption, we are still catching up to some of the bigger companies in the industry. So specifically for us, I think that we still have a long way to go before we can safely say that. We use every tool, um, that are available to us to its fullest potential. So, um, yeah, I mean, we are getting there, but it's still an ongoing project, but for the industry in general, I'd say, well, I mean, um, accurate reading of the data is something that I guess transcends industry. So I guess. Design industry is no different in that regard, but I mean, I do expect a couple of things, um, for the future personally, obviously, um, the advancements. In AI are probably going to affect the design as well, which is, I guess, something that goes back to what I was trying to tell by explaining two different sets of customers in the market when it comes to, you know, design forward, uh, products. So, um, I mean, obviously, I think at this point, it's inevitable that. AI design products are going to be a thing.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:39:47

Huge disruptor potentially in that, in that area. Yeah.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:39:51

Um, yeah, potentially, but there is also the fact that, uh, that could also mean and probably will, um, in my opinion, for example, um, human design element is going to be even more valuable to a certain set of customers. As you know, I mean, for a utilitarian customer, people probably won't be bothered by the fact that the product was designed by an AI. I think there will be even more people who will value. a product with a story behind it, you know, with a name attached to it, with a face attached to it. So, um, I mean, it will probably go both ways. Um, obviously I think, um, in the end, there are more people who value convenience than people who value, you know, um, a good story. So, um, it is what it is, but I don't think it's necessarily the end of, um, design in the classical sense.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:41:01

Right. No, that makes sense. I mean, it's, you know, whether you have an emergence of, you know, I think, I think in this arena, like, I can be a disruptor, but like you said, there will, there is going to be a demand for folks that, you know, want something that has that human touch. And it's, it's, it's been, like, developed and designing, uh, designed by a human, uh, those, those 2 different, like, consumer basis. I think it's very interesting because I think. You know, you may start off focusing on 1 consumer base. And then you expand out from there as you, like, scale and whatnot to have to try to accommodate both. Um, I think as we, like, we are, like, you were saying, as we look to. You know, the future design, there's going to be aspects that, you know, they're going to be staying the same, though, no matter what people are going to be focusing on. That the, the data aspect, like, that's all going to be. You said it transcends. Industries, so that's always going to be a, you know, a factor and so we just needed that the need for technologists in this field is not necessarily going to go away

Ege Yurdagul: 00:42:10

exactly. And I think it's even, um, apparent. Today, um, because, for example, we see that handmade drugs. Are very much so in demand, even though it is way easier to just mass produce. Those giant looms. So even though, you know, um, that still accounts for a very large portion of the market, there is still a huge demand for handmade drugs as well. Uh, whether they're, you know, like unique or rather like wind drugs or just, uh, rugs that are of our own design. But handmade by like professional, um, or rather artisanal people, um, you know, sourced locally. So, um, again, yeah, if that's any indication for the future, I think the human design, like the human touch and design is also going to be something that That will come to be appreciated even more in the future. Um, I might be wrong. I don't know. Um, it is kind of difficult to, um, predict that.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:43:22

I think that that was the theme in our talk today is like, there's only so much that can be predicted when you're talking about, you know, when you're talking about like, Something that's inherently, you know, art at its core, you know, it's, it's really hard to predict what people will enjoy. It's hard to quantify, it's hard to quantify what that, uh, what the trends are going to be in this arena. So you have to, you have to kind of just stay on top of it and stay flexible.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:43:50

Maybe just like one way I would adjust that statement would be, it is very difficult to predict stuff in isolation, especially in the design industry. Um, thinking of stuff in context, or, you know, like in cross sections of different data points, uh, makes it slightly easier doesn't make it easy, but, uh, slightly easier, slightly easier. I

Jazmin Furtado: 00:44:15

like that. Could not have said that better myself. All right. Well, actually, this is kind of like all these are sparking some, uh, this transition to this like final part of our episode. Um, So I'd like to close the episodes with fact or fiction, which is where I just state a few statements about the design industry that I have, you know, the research, and I want you to let me know if you think these statements are fact or fiction, and they're just, you're not supposed to know these answers. They're just random. I just, whatever I could find online that seemed reputable. So, uh, I'll have five questions there, uh, five statements to ask and we'll see what you think.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:45:01

Absolutely. Um, I'm probably not ready for it, but I'll

undefined: 00:45:03

do

Ege Yurdagul: 00:45:05

my best. Alright.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:45:06

Alright, so the first statement. Times New Roman is the most common and widely used font in the world.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:45:16

I mean, I'm pretty sure it was at some point, but that's probably false.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:45:26

That is correct. It's false. Helvetica is the most commonly and widely used font in the world. It is Helvetica, I found out is derived from the Latin word for Switzerland, um, which is Helvetia. So it's a fun little fact.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:45:44

Yeah, it's, um, even the, what's it called? The abbreviation for Switzerland is CH, Confederation Helvetica.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:45:53

Wow, I feel like I, I've never had someone add to the factor of fiction before, so I'm adding, I'm adding a note here.

undefined: 00:46:06

I

Ege Yurdagul: 00:46:06

mean, I, I have the benefit of actually having given, um, having lived in Switzerland.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:46:11

Oh, nice.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:46:14

So, yeah, very

Jazmin Furtado: 00:46:16

worldly.

undefined: 00:46:16

Yeah,

Ege Yurdagul: 00:46:17

I wouldn't, I wouldn't take credit for

undefined: 00:46:18

that.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:46:19

All right, let's see. Okay, so you got one. You're one for one. Uh, second, red is the most popular well liked color in the world, preferred by around 30 percent of people.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:46:32

I kind of wish that were true. That would really help us manage our inventory, uh, since we have so many red rocks just sitting there, um, with very little demands. Um, despite our best efforts, so I wish that were true. If it is true, I'm going to be extremely disappointed. So I'm going to go with false.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:46:55

All right. That, that is also correct. You're a two for two. So blue is the most popular wildlife color in the world. It's pretty high up. It's a pretty universal. Uh, the, the second colors, you know, all kind of vary between like green and red. Depending on, like, different countries, but blue, you know, I found out that blue is more popular with men than women, which I was like, you know, I was surprised about it's like, a lot more popular with men than women. Um, but, yeah, blue is blue is also 1 of the rarest natural colors. Like, you don't see it very often in nature, which I didn't know about. So, it's like, 1 of the most rarest colors you can find naturally.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:47:40

That is interesting. The

Jazmin Furtado: 00:47:42

more you know, even like the few animals and plants that appear blue actually don't have like the blue color. It's like tricky of the light. All right. Two for two. Okay. Third one. The post it note is widely known as the simplest and most successful product design of all time.

undefined: 00:48:01

I think

Ege Yurdagul: 00:48:07

I might actually have heard about this one. Um, you know what? I do love it. I have used it like extremely extensively. So I'm going to go with true.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:48:19

That is that is also correct. It is the it is like the very widely known. It's very simple. It was made by accident people. I think the scientists are trying to create like a glue that was like more adhesive, but it actually didn't do a good job of sticking. So, They turned it into like a post it note. It makes like really high.

undefined: 00:48:40

It

Jazmin Furtado: 00:48:42

has, it doesn't spend a lot of marketing. It gets a lot of money. So it's a really, I guess, successful product. Other really simple designs are pretty successful, like the Frisbee and. The bendy straw, which I found out. Oh, and the paperclip as well.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:48:58

The first 2 is really interesting to me, but, um, I get the paperclip. That I didn't know the

Jazmin Furtado: 00:49:05

paperclip went through so many iterations. Like, there's so many different, like, versions of paperclip, which I didn't know before it got to the paperclip itself.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:49:13

Although whoever told, you know, like this new adhesive stuff that we were working on didn't work. So, you know what, let's just try this. And just adapted. That person has to be a genius. Um, that's some quick thinking. Um, I'm doing like way better than I expected.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:49:32

Yeah. I, yeah, I have

undefined: 00:49:33

so

Jazmin Furtado: 00:49:35

much power to you. All right. The fourth one, the oldest rug in the world is around a thousand years old, located in Turkey.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:49:49

Okay. I, now I'm going to feel really bad if I get this one wrong, because this is like the only question that actually has. Not, not like the only question, but like, that has some relevance, uh, to what I, what I'm supposed to know. Um, I think I'm going to go with fact. I'm only 1000 years, that kind of sounds young. I would have expected there to be like older as well, but. I'll go with fact.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:50:24

It is fiction.

undefined: 00:50:25

Oof.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:50:28

Your thought there was right. So, 2500 years old is the oldest. You know, around 2500 years old. Um, it was discovered in Siberia. Um, it was from 5th century B. C. It's the Pazuric Carpet. Uh, yeah. It was discovered in the tomb of a Scythian prince in Siberia.

undefined: 00:50:50

Um,

Jazmin Furtado: 00:50:52

Thank you.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:50:53

I should have known better. Yeah. A thousand years isn't that long of a time. Um, yeah. Yeah. I would

Jazmin Furtado: 00:51:01

not. I would not. I don't know. I was like, wow, that is, that is very old. All right. Last one. Three for four. All right. The, the Nike swoosh logo was made by a college student for 35 or 253 in today's money, this US dollars. And that's the cheapest design cost amongst the world's largest companies.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:51:27

Yeah, I think that's a

undefined: 00:51:28

fact.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:51:30

That is fiction. Seriously? Actually. Yeah. So that's actually one of the, one of the cheaper, one of the cheapest ones. Uh, but Twitter, the first Twitter logo was bought for like 15, um, but the designer actually only got like 2, um, for that design. Uh, and then a lot of other companies, I didn't count this because they didn't buy it themselves. They like made it in house, like Google, Coca Cola, Microsoft. They're all created their logos in house, but I didn't count those. So they didn't purchase it from anywhere. So Twitter. Is the, is the cheapest one I was able to find. If someone's able to find a cheaper one that was not built in house by a big company, let me know. Uh, and because yeah, that I, I didn't know how cheap some of these logos could be, but there's also some logos of companies that go for millions and millions of dollars to be able to sold. So there's, you know, there's, there's a huge spectrum, very extremes when it comes to the design design world. And you know, how much is a logo worth it's, you know, it's almost priceless.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:52:30

Right. Um, I mean, I knew that Nike has made some deals that sounds absolutely good right now, but I assume sounded really bad at the time when they were just like starting out. Um, they basically give everyone shares instead of actual money, uh, for very simple stuff. Um, even I think for like general services. Um, but yeah, so I kind of assumed that the logo would be among those stuff that they actually didn't pay for. But yeah, but I guess, like, that would, that wouldn't count anyways, right? Um, if they actually gave people shares, because that would probably be worth a lot.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:53:17

So, yeah, they, I guess, like, later on, they, like, gave this individual some shares. That were estimated to be like 600, 000. So I guess it was, you know, that's the, the stories, like they eventually compensated them enough, but, or they compensated them, but yeah, initially it was like really cheap.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:53:38

I feel like I should get maybe like half credit for this one. Not that

undefined: 00:53:42

I'm trying to

Ege Yurdagul: 00:53:43

negotiate. The Twitter one,

Jazmin Furtado: 00:53:44

the Twitter one is like low. It's like less, you can't, it can't compete with the Twitter one that was bought in 2009 or. For 15. So I think Twitter is pretty big or X, I guess you call it X now. Three for five. That's pretty good. I've said, I've gotten people that I got like one, one, right? So like, you're good. That's solid.

Ege Yurdagul: 00:54:09

And then I just came crashing

undefined: 00:54:14

down,

Jazmin Furtado: 00:54:14

but that's fine. Well, for being able to, uh, take this time with us to be, uh, to be with us today again, and thanks for playing the game. Yeah, you did really well.

undefined: 00:54:27

for having

Ege Yurdagul: 00:54:27

me. Ah, this was really

undefined: 00:54:29

fun. Yeah,

Jazmin Furtado: 00:54:30

of course. I mean, like, being in, hearing about your arena and hearing about how you use data to inform like a naturally, you know, very artistic process. That's just so interesting. It's always been a really big interest to me to see how people carry that balance. How do you know how much do you rely on the data? How much to rely on, like, your gut and, you know, how much to rely on your eye. So, it's just so eye opening to see how, how the dance works, um, between the more hard science and the softer science. So, uh, yeah, and they, and I think they both, like, really challenge each other at the end of the day. They all stimulate and challenge each other. You can create a great blend. Where, you know, you create a company that really uses the best of both to propel forward. So it's really great to see there's like good minds at the table to be able to make these decisions. So thank you again for enlightening us with your experiences and insights.

undefined: 00:55:23

Thank you.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:55:25

And of course, a special thank you that none of this would be possible without Hatch IT. so much for sponsoring this episode. On The Pair Program and for enabling our continued exploration in this series. And lastly, thank you. Listener deep. Thank you for tuning in to listen to us today. Really appreciate you being able to join us on our quest through the land of data. Take care of y'all

Tim Winkler: 00:56:10

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