Frontiers: Exploring the World of Data | The Peaks of Public Services | Beyond the Program

Tim Winkler: 00:00:00

Hey, listeners, Tim Winkler here, your host of The Pair Program. We've got exciting news introducing our latest partner series Beyond the Program. In these special episodes, we're passing the mic to some of our savvy former guests who are returning as guest hosts, get ready for unfiltered conversations, exclusive insights, and unexpected twist as our alumni pair up with their chosen guest. Each guest host is a trailblazing expert in a unique technical field. Think data, product management, and engineering, all with a keen focus on startups and career growth. Look out for these bonus episodes dropping every other week, bridging the gaps between our traditional pair program episodes. So buckle up and get ready to venture beyond the program. Enjoy.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:00:51

Hello

Jazmin Furtado: 00:00:53

everyone, and welcome to Frontiers: Exploring the World of Data. Frontiers dives into how people are using their data science minds to shape organizations and change the landscape outside of big tech. In each episode, we explore the far reaching corners of the world of data. My name is Jazmin, and I'm your host for this series. I, myself, am passionate about empowering people to make data driven decisions, and I'm always amazed at how others do it every day. Today, we are exploring the Peaks of public services. I get so excited whenever I like think of like the alliteration to use for each of these areas. So today we're going to be covering how data forward minds can push for real change in the public services sector. So that leads us to our guest introduction for today. I'm Alexis Bonnell. Alexis has a. Very accomplished career in public services from serving in war zones with the United Nations to establishing innovation labs with the United States Agency for International Development or USAID as its chief innovation officer and. That was just the beginning. After USAID, she transitioned to Google as a Senior Business Executive for Emerging Technologies, and I'm very interested to hear her take on her transition there. And then from Google, she moved back into public services and is now the Chief Information Officer and Director of the Digital Capabilities Directorate of the Air Force Research Laboratory, AFRL. No short of long, long titles,

Alexis Bonnell: 00:02:30

all those acronyms. I can Jasmine.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:02:34

It keeps it keeps the keep the mouth occupied. Her career has focused on pushing emerging technology initiatives in the large complex environments that are very common in public services. And she undoubtedly has a few fascinating stories to show for it. So I'm very excited. To learn more about her journey, I'm so excited to be here with you today. Thank you for your time. Alexis.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:02:58

Absolutely. What a great topic and thanks for having me. So

Jazmin Furtado: 00:03:02

moving into our icebreaker, as we start off as a tradition. So the question that we have today is, if you could introduce a new public space in your community, what would be in it? I usually start off to just like break the ice a little bit on my parts. And also I don't have a really good. Answer to follow up with so I usually start off as a low standard. Uh, I would choose a green way. In my local community, so I am in Los Angeles area and when I look out the window, there's not a lot of green. This is a lot of sky. So I would want to introduce a green space, maybe move some of the. Some of the roads underground and like replace them with green space. They do that in Boston where I spend some time. So it's great to have those areas where you can have parks. I wouldn't introduce some climbing structures. I figure out the safety behind that. I like climbing. So I would put that in there. Nice bathrooms, art installations of like, local artists. I really think art's a really great way to bring communities together. And then having a greenway occupy a street instead, or replace a street instead, would also allow you easy access to shops on both sides, especially if it's a busy highway. So that's what I would choose.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:04:23

That's awesome. So when, when, when are you going to get public sector to fund that? It's a dream.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:04:34

Very on theme.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:04:37

Let's see mine. Um, I think mine would be a floating dog park. Um, and I'm lucky enough here in West Virginia to live on a rock quarry. And I got to tell you, there is something about, you know, just a Being in water and just floating with people like it's really hard to be mad or angry or not trust or just not connect when when you're just floating. Right? And I think as a dog owner and dog lover, one of the things that I've loved when I've gotten to spend time at the quarry is is also seen just dogs, right? Swim and float and play. So my thing would be a kind of floating dog park. Um, and the nice thing is you don't even really need to separate big dogs and small dogs because They all float awkwardly in the same kind of vein. Um, so I would, I would have floating dog park. Um, I would, you know, probably have like local, like street vendors, but they'd have to also have like dog, you know, snacks. And yeah, I would just have lots of, you know, lots of time for, for people to float with their pooches. And I'm a big believer that. That type of quality time that type of headspace, we would solve many of the world's problems. Um, we have a little saying that, like, what happens, you know, in the quarry stays in the quarry. And we actually mean that more on stress. Right? So you get it all out and life is better. So I would wish that for more people. And that would be my idea. That seems

Jazmin Furtado: 00:06:07

like a great idea. It seems like it's very easy to implement.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:06:10

Right? I know, but I don't really know of any. I mean, maybe there's parks that have like lakes and swimming and dog stuff, but usually it's like no dogs or no this. And so I think being intentional to be, you know, to be inclusive, like that would be good. I

Jazmin Furtado: 00:06:25

really like that. And when dogs are in the water, I mean, it's not like they're like, they're not going that

Alexis Bonnell: 00:06:32

fast. And they don't go after each other. Like, it's just, you know, it's just them in the water, right? And then maybe in their ball in the water. But yeah, it's a happy place.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:06:43

Whenever your dogs seem a little, I'm looking at your dogs in the background, they seem a little bit smaller. My dog is like 100 pounds and he needs a big life jacket in the water. Yeah. I just love seeing all the little quirks and little things that these dogs like. When they're in the water, they become different animals.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:07:00

So it's very fun. Absolutely. So that would be mine. You can put in your submission. I'll put in mine and, uh, we can have this amazing kind of co space.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:07:11

I know we'll see what gets prioritized. I think that you have a lot more thought into maybe a lower barrier to entry for yours than for mine. So I'm rooting for yours.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:07:21

Well, yeah, I, we, it would be actually a hey, it's a good, it would be a good contest. And most of all, it would be really nice if they were right next to each other.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:07:31

Oh, that sounds wonderful to find a lake really close to a highway. All right, so going into our main topic today, I want to learn. All I can about your experiences in public services, because I think a lot of people that are tuning in. Don't know of all the opportunities or the ways that data enthusiasts can be utilized. In this field, I mean, there's just so many different. Organizations in this industry, it's it's a big area and it could be a little intimidating. I wanted you to I was wondering if you could talk 1st, about kind of what public services is like, what is what makes up this industry and then how you yourself got into it. Sure. So,

Alexis Bonnell: 00:08:21

um, you know, I actually was not looking to be in public service. Um, out of my sister and I, she was the much more nice kind of leading heart do good for the world. And I was, you know, really happy capitalist. I specialized in like advertising and PR and selling people things. And, and, um, that was kind of my plan. And what was interesting, though, about the type of it. You know, that age in which I entered kind of the marketing and advertising profession was really where, um, what we used to call digital marketing or, um, you know, direct mail marketing came, uh, came into being. And at that time, there was a lot of, um, kind of glory and like brand advertising, right? Like the Nike swoosh, you know, all of that. And that was really how we, we shared messages. But, you know, from a data lens, what was really interesting is when you started to introduce kind of that personalized, right, the direct mail or these different pieces that we used to get, that was really the first time, um, the way that I cut my teeth on like, well, you should really know who you're talking to, right? You should really have that type of information. And this is where. You know, bank information overlapped with catalog subscribers, right? I know people may not even know what catalogs are anymore. But back in the day, there are these paper things you'd get in the mail, right? And, and there was a lot of, uh, you know, of targeting, right? Well, who's going to like my product, right? Who's going to like my catalog? And so, you know, I really take for granted that I kind of entered, you know, what was not public service, but kind of entered into this idea of having data. Having knowledge, right? And using it to make better decisions. So, you know, if you think about, um, you know, the cost of mailing something to someone and hopes that they might buy your product, you really had to kind of tailor like, is this the right person? Is this, you know, because every decision you made was ultimately about the return and finance. So, you know, kind of, I didn't realize that it was unique to kind of go into my career being like, well, of course I want information. Of course I want data, right? Like, The right decision, you know, equals, you know, equals success. Um, so, you know, what was really interesting and in the way that I got into public service and, uh, this is not the normal story for most people. It kind of feels like a bottle of wine story, but I will. I will tell it, uh, anyway, um, I got a call out of nowhere from, um, a friend of mine who happened to meet, uh, someone just sitting next to them on vacation in Las Vegas, and she called me and she said, you know, I met this guy and I told him he needs to hire you. And I was like, well, who's this guy? What, what's this about? And he was, um, this really incredible leader in, uh, one of the UN organizations and he gets on the phone and he's like, you know, your friend Amanda says, you're great, come, come work for me. And I was like, well, where do you work? He said, you know, the UN and I said, well, where, and he said, Oh, I'm in Afghanistan. And I was like, yeah, I was like, I don't actually really think I know very much about the UN. I'm not actually sure I like the UN or I think they're very effective, you know, and he was talking and I think part of what was so interesting is he kind of loved the fact that I wasn't Kind of like the UN is amazing and does no wrong. And, and, um, when he pushed me a little bit more, I was like, well, what is it that you need? And he's like, I need someone that I can kind of drop in the middle of really challenging places and like, we'll figure it out and we'll do important things like bring democracy, like, you know, places and make sure people have food. And, you know, I kind of thought it was just a weird conversation. Like what a kind of crazy conversation. Weird, you know, and I said, okay, and I, and at this day, guys, when I think back and I was in my early, early mid twenties, right? And, and I don't know, like, where I got this kind of like gumption, but I was like, you know, whatever reason we were hitting it off. And he said, well, what would it take to get you to come work for me? And I said, okay, if you. Fly me to wherever your boss is, and he convinces me, you both convince me kind of that, you know, this is, this is really kind of change that you want to bring to your work. I said, I'll go to Afghanistan in two weeks thinking I'm never going to hear from this guy again. What a weird call and he's like, okay, you're on hangs up the phone and I like I literally kind of hung up the Phone thought that was really weird And went on about my day and the next day there's a knock on my door and there's a guy You know fedex guy with an envelope. I open the envelope. It is a ticket to new york for that day. Um, And I was like this guy's no joke, right? like really like if if anything i've got to meet him right if anything I really admired kind of like You know, the ability to get things done. So I flew out, you know, met the executive director of the C. U. N. agency with him. He flew out and, you know, about three weeks later, I had sold my house, like, quit my job and flew to Afghanistan. Um, so, you know, it was just totally unexpected. Nothing I planned for nothing I was seeking. Um, yeah. And I kind of have this theory about opportunity, you know, open doors and open windows and open doors are all those things you kind of expect, like, I'm going to go to school and then I'm going to do this and kind of all the logical things right that feel really safe and kind of predictable and are clear as far as pursuing them. And then there's, and then there's open windows, right? And open windows are just all those weird random opportunities that come up all the time that we don't expect that we're not looking for. So that's what took me into public service. And after spending. Um, you know, a couple years in Afghanistan and then actually over a decade at different kind of emergency places, war zones. Um, I got to work for a long time with the U. S. Agency for International Development as my client. So I implemented a lot of the work of USAID and kind of again, you know, Jasmine just, you know, really tried to focus on on great delivery, really informed information, rich, you know, kind of programs and The gentleman who happened to be the head of USAID in Afghanistan, um, we just hit it off really well, um, incredible leader, incredible man, and we just kind of stayed in touch and, and no, no joke, a couple years later, I pinged him and said, Oh, what are you doing? He's like, Oh, I'm, you know, I'm back at USAID in Washington. And I said, Oh, you know, I'm thinking about coming back. Let me know if there's something you want me to do or how I can be helpful. You know, yeah, come and be my head of business transformation and knowledge management. And I was like, okay. And it turned out he was at that time, the head of USAID. Right. And so I didn't even know he had advanced to such a position, but you know, again, he, you know, I've had so many lucky experiences of people just kind of saying, Hey, like come help, come figure it out. And. Quite frankly, I just say yes every time, right? So, you know, got to be at USAID, got to take on a lot of different challenges. Um, and, and I think when we think about public service, that can take so many frames, right? It could be being in an international organization like the UN. It could be being part of federal government like USAID or FEMA or the IRS. It could be state and local government. Um, it could be. You know, kind of other international organizations. So public service is really focused on usually kind of good governance and the benefit of the people, the population, um, sometimes generally, but oftentimes in particular subject matter. So you'll have public servants that focus on health. Or education or things like that. So I'm just really lucky. I've gotten to serve in a lot of different and a lot of different levels. Um, and be exposed to a lot of those different areas, even within public service. Sorry, that was a lot.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:16:32

I know that you mentioned, you know, there's a luck factor, but I think, you know, you have, you, you were able to build a reputation and you have things under your belt to show for your time. What was the thing or what were the one or two things that really stuck out to you, stood out to you about public services that made you want to stay in this arena? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, more than just a year or 2 years, like, you know, you, you, you made conscious decisions to kind of stay in the space. And I know you talked a little about people, but I'm also wondering, like, is that a component? Is there a mission aspect to it? Or the problems you're trying to figure out what it feels.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:17:15

I mean, absolutely the mission and purpose component. Like, I didn't know that I was looking for it or that it mattered to me, you know, but when you start getting to play a role of making sure, you know, more mothers and babies don't die in the first 48 hours of birth, right? Or that people have. Um, access to education and, you know, in the case of Afghan girls, you know, books and being able to be taught, you know, um, literacy, uh, you know, all the way to democracy and other types of issues. So, I think it's one of those things that once you really find some of that purpose driven work, it's really hard, right, to kind of back away from it. Um, but I also think a lot of it is about saying yes, right, to those opportunities. I mean, it was interesting because Over the course of my career there'd be a lots of folks like I want to do what you do and I said, okay Well, I can send you to Afghanistan, right or or Palestine tomorrow, whatever and it was like no No, I like the idea more of like Paris or Rome and I was like, well, you know the Parisians don't maybe need as much That type of assistance. So, you know, I think I think part of it is to recognize that you know, sometimes it's hard Um, it's not sexy, uh, you know, all the time to, to be trying to pull off really, you know, challenging things and hard places. But I also think that people who like, you know, the idea of like, okay, this is hard, like, that'll be interesting, right? Like, let's, let's see, you know, how you pull it off. And in some cases, um. You know, you don't always know how to pull it off. These are really complex, hard problems and that relationship, that curiosity, that hunger for knowledge and for data and to understand if you're doing it right. Um, you know, but it kind of just becomes a high, like it's one thing for me to sell my keys. It's another thing right for for me to be like, people probably lived, you know, lived longer because of what I did today.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:19:10

But yeah, I can't imagine the types of the things that you've seen and the stories that you have Do you have like something that comes to mind like a story that kind of highlights, you know what really drew you kept you in and Maybe speaks also to like the uniqueness of these data challenges like the technological challenges that this area faces

Alexis Bonnell: 00:19:32

Sure. I mean I think There's such a, such a wide, like, such a, such a wide, um, amount and vast amount of, of impactful kind of moments. I think, you know, from, from just a moment that will stay with me forever. Um, I got to participate in, uh, you know, at the time, rebuilding the woman's dormitory at Kabul University in Afghanistan. And, you know, that was a building that was created, I think, in the 70s, and never actually, you know, in its history was used for lots of other kind of horrible purposes under, you know, during war and under the Taliban, and really had never actually been a place where women came together to learn and be educated. Right. And, and, Live together. And so when I got to work on that project, and I remember walking down the hallway after it had opened and doing my project management checklist. Right. And, and, and hearing, um, like, hearing these young women, like, giggle. And I thought to myself. This building, I don't know if this building's ever heard that sound right and like to to bring like the population that was intended to be there for the doing the intended thing and to kind of know that finally, you know, that that was having its mark. Like, those are 1 of those things that just that stick with you. But I think from an information standpoint there, there are so many. So, You know, the 1st is just being information rich to say, are we doing the right thing? Right? Is this what people want? Um, being able to look at major, you know, data and understand, um, you know, what are some of the challenges that an area has? Right? What might be some of the ways that a challenge was tackled before? Uh, did it work? Right. So a lot and, and, um, international development, you know, there's a lot of data for decision making, but there's also a lot of hunger for evidence. Like, is what we're doing helpful? And the answer is like, not always. There was one, um, case in particular, um, we had funded a clean cook stove initiative, right? Because a lot of, um, you know, people were cleaning with, uh, I'm sorry, we're cooking with, um, gas or kerosene or charcoal and inhaling and having really bad health issues because of the way in which they, um, you know, kind of had the option to prepare food. And so we thought this is so great. We're going to create these clean cook stoves. They can, you know, eat in a more healthy way, you know, kind of like pat on the back kudos to us. Good job. Um, and so brilliant is that they put these like heating sensors. On the cook stoves and just as a data thing to say, okay, well, how often are they getting hot? Right? Are they failing? And it was it really wasn't an active data collection. It was passive, right? It was it was, you know, just it was more kind of accountability. I think for the project of are they working? But what we saw was, you know, this kind of huge spike, you know, the beginning of, I think it was the first month and then like, just like it kept going down and kept going down. And we, of course, were quite concerned that, you know, they were breaking right or they weren't working. And it was, you know, okay, so. You know, the team made a visit back to, you know, this area. And what was really interesting is, is they went and talked to the community. They had given these cook stoves and the, and they said, well, how are the cook stoves? And the community said, oh, they're great. They're wonderful. You know, they're perfect. And of course, our team was a little bit like, but are they getting hot? Right? And long story short, um, they, the community had stopped using them because, you know, as you know, especially the women were cooking for their families, regardless if they had, you know, regardless if they were in poverty, they These women were proud of the food they made, right? Proud of what they brought their family. And they felt like the cook stoves changed the flavor, right? It wasn't like it was, it wasn't good anymore. And so they stopped using them, but they didn't want to tell us, right? That like, actually your, your thing's not that helpful and it ruins my cooking. Um, but what I loved about that is that then we got to have a conversation like, oh, maybe we can change, you know, a fuel formula, or maybe we can do something to fix it. But, you know, without the data, without being hungry and accountable, right, for what it was we were doing, those things were going to become the fastest corner footstool, right, um, ever. And I think that that's something when you, when you serve people, you know, we talk about human centered design. Um, but really just wanting that knowledge, right? And having that exchange and allowing that knowledge to unlock the real conversations that need to be had. Um, just such a. You know, those types of moments were really game changing for me.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:24:31

Yeah, there's so many aspects of that story. That's just really solidified a lot of why it's important to have like, a data hat on in these sorts of environments because some, some people might be like, well, you know. Take the take all the, uh, like, data out of the question. Like, this is a very human centric problem, but data really helps in so many different ways. If you have the forethought to introduce these passive ways of collecting data, the least intrusive ways, like, that's very important. That's like a nuanced thing that you have to pre plan. And then after the fact, I think data also serves as a way to help, like you were mentioning with those conversations, especially when you're dealing with different cultures and different people, it's not, it's not always easy to talk about, you know, when something doesn't go well, or to communicate, you know, whether it's actually helpful to you or not, you know, there's barriers there and data helps to break those down. There's numbers. It's a conversation

Alexis Bonnell: 00:25:30

starter. Yeah, and I think when you're trying to do good, and if you think about a public sector. You know, we're really entrusted often with taxpayer dollars, right? So it's not just, you know, we're not a company trying to make money, right? This is we've been entrusted by people like you and I with, you know, with dollars to to make our communities, you know, um, a better place, right? To deliver the programs https: otter. ai And that actually is, is, you know, something you got to take really seriously, right? And, and data and knowledge and we call it being an evidence driven leader, right? So it's, it's one thing, you know, just to make decisions, um, you know, from a, from a normal sense, but it's another when, when you're not only trying to deliver, you know, a different type of experience or, or benefit or assistance to someone or advance something, you know, on behalf of the nation. Right. But it's another one when you're using your neighbor's money, right? You're using your tax money and You know, I think for many great public servants, there is that there's that wait, there's a there's a pride of getting it right. And the data helps you know, are you really getting it right? And there is a worry, right about getting it wrong, and and being hungry and making sure that, you know, if you didn't get it quite right, if it's not as effective as you wanted, but actually, we see that really quickly. Right, and can pivot and change. Um, and I think that, you know, it's sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it's qualitative. Sometimes it's quantitative. You know, a great example actually, that was in California that I got to work on when I moved to Google was, you know, around the types of kind of conversation that, you know, they could have, or the ways that they made engage, um, Diaspora or, you know, or non English speaking parts of the community, right? So, you know, the, the state had really, in many cases, incredible resources. Um, but they were underutilized by Spanish speaking populations, right? Or, or maybe Vietnamese speaking populations. Um, and so, you know, number 1, realizing, oh, they're underutilized, right? That takes data. Um, but then, you know, being able to open the dialogue or to have new modes of communication where. You can really see someone, you know, interact or start to use a service and kind of really monitor that. Um, and I think that that that idea of, you know, that accountability is just at the heart of public service.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:28:05

And it's not even that you need those and loads of data being like these decisions. It's just the. It's the need to gather something so you can measure a baseline or see trends over time. It's just. Even in the small, more isolated sense, that's very valuable. And we don't need to, you know, everyone's like, oh, where's all the data? It's like, well, data is important, but you can also collect it. You could also make your own. You know, it's, uh. You don't, you don't need to tap into this magical source of data somewhere to be valuable as like, as someone who appreciates data.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:28:37

So, I mean, it's really like a very, it's a very. What the trait that I love and in in great all the great human beings that I've met right one one trait They almost always seem to have is curiosity, right? It's it's this relationship with knowledge this desire to have more knowledge right to experience more things, you know and and You know, whether I want to call it data, whether I want to call it knowledge that that pursuit right of knowledge and the ability to say, well, how will this change my life, my behavior, my values, you know, the way that I work or what I might do on behalf of others. That is really a journey of curiosity. Right? And and so many times that data to your point. Sometimes it can be a quantitative, right? How many people came and participated in this program, and it could be qualitative. Like, how did someone feel about the program? And I think one of the, you know, things I got to work on that was really interesting was, um, the concept of time poverty, right? So if we think about someone who might be needing to access, um, you know, some assistance, you know, types of programs or things like that. Usually, if, if one is in a position where they have already maybe somewhat financially vulnerable and have to, you know, look for assistance, that person probably doesn't also have the time to come and sit, you know, in a six hour line at the local assistance office, right? Because every, you know, I started to realize every. Our that, you know, she or he might sit there. That's our that's ours. They're not earning money, right? They're not able to, you know, put that to supporting their family, but it may also be. Maybe she didn't have a car, right? Maybe she had to coordinate with the bus schedule. And so it was really interesting when you become passionate about about data and the story that it tells you, you become so much more intimately linked to the people you're trying to serve. And so sometimes that qualitative thing was literally just. Thank you. You know, like following someone, you know, with their knowledge, right? But, but going with them on the day and saying, what is it like for you to navigate this thing that we think is just so easy? And there, and, and obviously, you know, and we realized in some cases that, you know, the amount of time poverty that someone incurred, um, and the amount of lost income and things like that was sometimes like. Not even as much, uh, or not more than the benefit, right? And so it really allows you to step back and say, well, a, can I do this in a more useful way so that that person doesn't incur time poverty, you know, or, you know, let's be more realistic about the challenges that the people we're trying to help have. Um, and so, Those are, you know, you just have so many magic moments, right? When you're in that curious headspace, um, that, you know, that help you let, you know, if you're getting it right or wrong,

Jazmin Furtado: 00:31:32

I love that theme of, like, the, this curiosity and the need to, like, gather data and bring people together. In the public in the public services space, like, this is these arenas when you're looking and trying to get data, you're doing things to bring people closer together to better understand and empathize with others. And it's 1 of the more human things you can do in trying to get to know someone and getting to know their plight as well, which makes me very curious. How you move from that space and you move to Google, um, I wanted to know a little bit about your journey there, your thought process and your transition there. What had you gained the big things you had taken away from your time that really helped you with this transition of Google and maybe the impetus for that movement. You're back in the public services space. Curious how

Alexis Bonnell: 00:32:27

that went. Yeah, no, I mean, you know. Going to Google was, uh, was very intentional. Um, it did not start with the offer. Please, you know, come to Google. Um, it started probably about a half a year before in the sense that, uh, you know, at the time I was the chief innovation officer at USAID. And I started to become kind of uncomfortable because. You know, I thought to myself, well, gosh, that's a great chief innovation officer. I should be in love with my customer, right? I should just have so much intimacy. I should understand so much about them. Um, and I, I found that was actually really hard to do, right? It wasn't actually, you know, always natural to You know, how we programmed or what we thought or how we made decisions. And so I thought, Oh, gosh, you know, I really I need to figure out what that looks like. And at the same time, I was really fascinated by how is what we do really going to be impacted by technology. Right? And oftentimes in government technology. Um, it's super expensive, right? These are really big systems, really complicated. And I was like, do they need to be like, does it have to be that much? Like, what's going on? And so when, you know, I kind of out of the blue through a colleague of mine, another public servant, um, who's still at Google, really amazing, uh, you know, defense leader said, Hey, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna try to, you know, make it work. More technology relevant to government, government and public service. Come join us. And it was really hard, right? Because I had one of the best gigs in government. I mean, you know, being the chief innovation officer at USAID is about one of the best feel good, cool, kick ass jobs right out there. But, you know, I thought to myself and in that spirit of curiosity, I was like, okay, what do I have to learn? Like, where would I like to become more confident, a better leader and understand more? And I really recognize there were kind of three categories. So the first was I wanted to understand more about technology, right? What was real? What was hype? Um, you know what needed to cost 200 million and what was free, you know, like environmental insights engine, I think, is one of the Google products. Um, you know, free, incredible data. No one knows about it. It seems like no one uses it. Um, but also, how do you answer important things when you're talking about data like, um, security, right? Or privacy? Um, because there is an exchange right of often really critical information. And so I thought that would probably be good. For me to know more about and be more confident in and to bring that back. So that was one. The second was culture, you know, right? Because a lot of times we sit on the outside of organizations like a Google or apple or other places, and it seems so cool, right? And everyone seems like so happy and it's great and, and so innovative. And, and I really wondered, I wonder. What it is about how people leave there or how people function and how much of that I could do as a public servant. Um, you know, and that was, um, you know, something that I really felt in my time at Google, you know, probably about 90 percent of the stuff that, um, you know, But I learned kind of and how Google functions and participated. I was like, I could have done this like with the same budget that I had in public sector, the same legislation, the same kind of rules and policies. And so that was really eye opening, but a great example of what might be different. And one of the things that, you know, I hope to take more now into my public service is oftentimes in in Government organizations, because of levels of accountability and transparency and wanting to be really great stewards of taxpayer dollars. Um, there's a lot often kind of a hierarchy, right? And so if you were doing a good job, usually in recognition programs, it would be like your supervisor kind of would decide who would get an award, right? Or a panel. It was always kind of people above you, you know, got to decide what you were doing. And the irony, of course, is. It's actually not people above you that are usually in the trenches doing the work who really know like how awesome you are, or maybe not that awesome that day. Right. And, and so this, you know, the, the concept of peer awards. Right. And the ease of peer awards. And for me, how, how, how welcoming and how unterritorial. And how open to sharing and, um, what it was like to kind of just be able to give someone a shout out, right. Or a small, you know, monetary thing. I was like, this is, this is a different way of being. And what really struck me more than anything else is that as an individual, as a person, we need nourishment, right. We need recognition. We need to know that, that other people value and see us. And oftentimes in kind of hierarchical, um, or superior based recognition. Like, great. You'll get told that once a year, maybe twice a year, right? Um, and in peer based recognition, I mean, there were, there were times where, you know, like someone would give me a shout out, like once a week, twice a week, right? And it was just, it was this really interesting, um, nourishment, right? To my sense of purpose, to my confidence, right? That I was doing good things. I was bringing great value. So, you know, that's an example in that kind of culture realm of, There was nothing stopping me right from from really doing that type of work. Um, I just didn't tick that way right until I saw how that looked. And the last part, you know, that I wanted to be really intentional at Google was what is it to create, you know, products and services that people love, right? And that billions of people use. And what does that look like? Because the interesting thing is that You know, next to, you know, some of the bigger tech companies or other tech companies, really only government plays at that scale, right? Only government is in the business of billions, right? Um, or, you know, hundreds of millions of people. And so it was really interesting in some ways to compare. You know, being in the business of scale, right? And in very different ways. Um, but, but really, for me, that that business of scale is a business of people, right? And so I wanted to go and kind of see, well, what does it look like to do that? So, you know, I was really lucky because those are my 3 kind of questions. I went in with a lot of intent to learn around them, um, and about them and develop a point of view on those. And then. Yeah. You know, kind of once I did, it was like, okay, now let's go practice it right now. Practice what you preach, go back and do

Jazmin Furtado: 00:39:01

it. I think that the cross pollination of sorts of like experiences is really important to be useful in these like ever changing environments. And, uh, you were mentioning a lot of things that you, your intentions, what you wanted to get and benefit from. And when you move to Google, when you are at Google, where there are things that you had learned from your public services experience, you know, big traits that you found very valuable and very, um, I guess, useful in your day to day when you're at Google, that maybe is a little bit different, like, give you a little bit of a different perspective in that environment.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:39:39

Yeah, I mean, I think 1 is just that, for lack of a better term, kind of servant leader mentality. Right. Like, like the why of why are we doing this? Right. And how might we do it in a way that has more impact that resonates more? I think, interestingly, you know, like, Google's obviously an incredible brand. Um, but I think that public sector is when it's done really well, really, really, um, understands the power of story. Right. And. You know, there are a lot of times where, you know, I would kind of go in with peers and it might be something like, you know, buy cloud or do this. And it was like, well, like. What does cloud let them do? Right? Like cloud lets them like be, you know, be flexible or be adaptable or scale up. And so a lot of times I found, you know, myself a little bit in like, like the translation role of yes, this technology is amazing. But like, how does that change how I can serve? Right? Or, or, or the confidence maybe that I have to make a tough decision. You know, if you look at it. You know, whether it was covid or any other time of challenges, um, or maybe it's a general right in a conflict. Those are high stress, high stakes decisions, right? And if you think about the power of knowledge and data, any amount of confidence, you can give someone to be like. Hey, here's the information. Like make, make the best decision you can make, right? Because there's often like no right answer, right? It's just what's the best decision you can make? And, and knowledge and data, you know, gives, gives you that confidence, right? Allows you to feel like I really am, I'm doing the best I can do in this moment. Um, and I think people often underestimate just. What the weight is, you know, on a public servant, you know, in one of those really, um, just, you know, emergency or other moments to get it right. Right and I think, you know, that relationship with information, the relationship with knowledge, um, is just a really critical element. Um, you know, and I think for me, I innately understood that. Um, I think sometimes you can. You know, you're, you're just doing the tack. And so it's like, you know, I talked to an engineer and they're like, you know, yes, it does this, you know, this thing faster. And I was like, why do they care? Does it let them make a decision faster? Right? Um, but that's, but that's normal. And I think actually, you know, you and I had talked about this is why I think, um, in the data knowledge tech space of which, you know, a Google and a government share, right? Like they're, they're both in the business of those things. Um, but story matters. And I really think a lot of times we look at data and we think about data scientists, right? And we, and that's who we think about as being, um, the most important or the thing that people need. And I think that's true. But you know, that, that data storyteller. Right. The person that can look at that and say, well, so what, not just what does this mean? But so what, how does it connect to someone? How does, you know, how is that something that someone actually wants to engage? Because all the information in the world doesn't matter if it doesn't inspire people, right? Or give them confidence or compel people. So, you know, I think what has been unique for me is, Okay. Playing both the technology and innovation role, also playing maybe a public affairs storyteller role and realizing that they are, they are very, um, under optimized when they're not done well together. I

Jazmin Furtado: 00:43:15

love what you're saying with the relationship of knowledge, because it's not just the amount of knowledge. It's not the amount of data that we have. I mean, the world's at our fingertips in that regard. It seems like it's really what is our relationship with knowledge. Now, those are the sorts of questions that we need to be asking as data leaders in this space. And everyone always needs to have a healthy challenge when it comes to any problem. Like, how is it being tackled? How are we leveraging data? Because It's we're not just we're no longer in this phase. We're just trying to grab, you know, something that's that's that's attainable. It's now. How do we use it? Are we using it? Right? Are we asking the right questions?

Alexis Bonnell: 00:43:50

I think, and I think. I mean, I think to that point, too, a lot of people discount that they can be data pioneers, even if they don't crunch a single number, right? And what I mean by that is, you know, I, I have the great privilege of, of participating and, you know, as a chief information officer, that highly technical role, right? Hoping to really bring technology to bear. And people say, well, what'd you get your degree in? Like, my first degree was in public relations, right? Like, And, and that actually serves me so well, because, you know, the first rule of any relationship with knowledge or database I'm trying to set up is like, why, what, what is the story we're trying to sell the, you know, tell the decision that we're trying to make differently, like. What is inspirational or, or scary about that? Right. And, um, you know, I would just really encourage, you know, I would love to see like every data scientists have like a bestie that was like the marketing comms, like advertising person, like that. Those are like the juggernaut, you know, pairs, um, you know, but, but again, people often just will ask, well, I'm, I'm, yeah. Like I used to say, well, I'm not, I'm not technical, right? Like, because I, I valued the story, right? More than maybe necessarily calculating, you know, the data or running kind of the algorithmic structure. Um, but I realize now, like, I'm just. Very technical, but just as technical, right? And just as relevant to the technology as the coder or the engineer or anything like that.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:45:25

So as a leader yourself in this space and like in data in these like innovation spheres and this very tech. Centric in these very tech centric organizations, what advice would you have for folks that are interested that want to maybe try their hand at working, etc. Like, where do they start? Is it like, you know, is there a lot of runway for them still to be able to take up in this space? Like, is there a lot in terms of like, future progress? Where do you see this arena going?

Alexis Bonnell: 00:45:57

Yeah, I mean, the reality is. There is so much, right? So you could, um, you know, you could be looking at, um, local nonprofit, right? Or NGO work as part of public sector. And you can start, one of the great ways I tell people is like volunteer, right? You don't have to take this big jump. You can go volunteer, right? Or participate in a, you know, kind of a local community or government sponsored event, right? Or do things. And number one, you're going to build relationships, right? Um, but number two, You'll you'll know as you feed that purpose driven part of your identity, right? Like, Oh, is this is this feeling something right for me? Is this bringing something more? Um, you know, I would say, like, there's also interestingly a ton for people who are, you know, data, you know, story centric, you know, government is doing a ton of things like hackathons, right? Or, or kind of data crunch events or other types of things. And, and we really do, um, Have a need for that type of talent, right? We can't hire, you know, we can't hire like these information stewards fast enough. And so, you know, you'd be really surprised, you know, and almost, I feel like every major city multiple times a year, there's probably some type of public entity being like, come help us figure out this right or come do that. And, um, and like, just go right, just just participate. Um, You know, but there's there's so many different ways. What's really interesting to me is right now. You'll get a lot of folks who maybe you're coming out of tech, right? You want more purpose or who are kind of looking for a transition and it's really interesting to me how narrowly they often look at their experience, right? So I was just talking to someone the other day and They had been kind of in an executive strategy role, and they really kind of felt like, oh, well, I'm only I've only done tech. So, so I only really can contribute right to tech. And I was like, well, you don't think like government, like, needs to plan stuff, right? Or like have a strategy, you know, like, I know we have a strategy, right? And so I do think that sometimes we get these really limiting Perspectives on our identity, right? And I mentioned to you kind of open doors and open windows. And I think what's different about the people who, like, see the open window and go through it. Is like, like, oh, I could, I could be that, like, I could do that. Right? I think, I think they just see, like, experiences that they've had. As more broadly relevant, right? Then a lot of people who kind of just focus on the doors. And so, you know, my encouragement would be like, if you're. A comms person or you were trained in marketing like you are just as relevant to a tech company, right? But if you're in a if you're in a tech company and you're data crunching like you're just as relevant to the red cross right, so um, you know really the more we kind of knit that fabric together right and give people the opportunity like i've had to go Between the two, it all gets better.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:49:01

Yeah. Paying it back on all fronts. I know that AFRL also, they, they, there's quite a lot of outreach. That is a lot of like hackathons of sorts to get involved

Alexis Bonnell: 00:49:13

in. Yeah, and I think that that's the neat thing, right? And being in government, especially in a place that is a research lab, right? A lot of people think like, you know, discovery and invention happens like, you know, in the movies, like some guy sitting in a dark corner by himself being like Eureka, right? That's not how it happens, right? It happens through like, collision of people and ideas. And so being at a place like, You know, like, uh, the Air Force Research Lab. You know, I we get to work with incredible people in education and academia, right? We get to work with, you know, private sector companies like, you know, like Google and Microsoft and small businesses and small tech and big tech. Um, and so I guess maybe in some cases I got, I got addicted to being in that curiosity journey, right? Um, and my first role then kind of, you know, being really intentional at Google. And now it's kind of like, The Holy Grail, right? I mean, they're all of these incredible genius people all around me being curious about different things. And my job is literally to help them have a more intimate relationship with knowledge, right? With with data, with learning and having that, you know, inspire and propel, you know, what they're doing for critical missions. And so it's, yeah, it feels, um, it's a real kind of blessing to find myself here and to See you To be kind of in that constant state of learning, you know, from those around me.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:50:39

You know, you're in a good spot when you're inspired by the people around you. Oh

Alexis Bonnell: 00:50:42

yeah. They're so smart. It's just, it's actually, it's funny when I took this job, I told the commander of that, like, you know, that it terrified me and he's like, I don't, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that. And I was like, well, no, it's like, this is an amazing mission and there's tons of smart people, right. And technology changes every day. And like, this is. Like, what a meaty challenge, like if, you know, but it's okay. I don't, I don't take jobs that don't terrify me anymore. Like, let's go.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:51:11

Right. That's a great checkbox to have when considering like does

Alexis Bonnell: 00:51:16

this terrify me? Yes. All right. And you say

Jazmin Furtado: 00:51:18

learn by osmosis by like all the people around you. I think that is also another great aspect is like, it's, it is like you're saying a team effort you learn from, you know, everyone around you. There's so much collaboration. It's not like. You know, you're, you're only working in your small little group. What I have found with public services that you, you have to, I mean, the core of your work is collaboration. You have to work with others and cross cutting over, you know, different functions. Yes, it makes it more complex, but it just makes it so rewarding as well, because you're able to touch so many areas. Thank you for taking us on this journey with you. I wanted to, I know we've gone, we've gone a bit long, but I did want to finish with our, uh, this last game that I'm very proud of, uh, the factor fiction round, a few statements here about public services, and I want you to tell me if you think that these are factor fiction and you're not expected to know these answers. Uh, they're just statements I took, uh, I was looking them up online. Regarding public service facts, or yeah, so the 1st, 1 is around national parks. Okay. So, one of the hottest temperatures on Earth was recorded in 1913 in Death Valley National Park, registering 123 degrees. Do you think that temperature is fact or fiction?

Alexis Bonnell: 00:52:43

I think it's fiction, because I think it was hotter. What do you think it was? Oh, um... I'm gonna guess like mid 130s.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:52:58

Wow, double points on that one. Yes. Okay, what was it? What was it? Yeah, so it was 134.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:53:07

I was actually gonna say 135, so I would have been wrong, but like, I appreciate you giving me like a little wedge in the mid 30s. Yeah,

Jazmin Furtado: 00:53:14

usually like, I'm like, I try to make these things really hard, but yeah, it's a 123. I pulled that number because it's actually the record heat for Palm Springs, California, which is like close to where like I grew up. So, yeah, 134 is the hottest report. One of the hottest temperatures on earth. And that was Death Valley. I

Alexis Bonnell: 00:53:35

did have a little bit of a cheat because when I worked for the UN, I got to work in Dubai for a while and I was there and I remember that like, I think the top temperature there got to like. And it, like, melted something on my car. I just remember that. And so I was like, gotta be a little higher, like, I'm sure. So anyway, I had some experiential cheat, at least in hot zones.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:53:57

And nothing humbles you more than just searing in the heat of a

Alexis Bonnell: 00:54:01

desert. Yeah, nothing. Yeah, it's funny because people say, what's the best innovation? And I was like, air conditioning. Sure, there's other really good ones for humanity, but I really like that one.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:54:14

Absolutely. I will. I second that one from living, um, growing up in the desert. Right. Second one is about the postal service. Oh, the officially licensed UPS brick introduced in 2018 is a very popular item. Thousands have been sold. On the postal store alone, and at other retailers.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:54:38

Okay, UPS, like brick, like you build a house with brick, like a brick and okay, and how many have been sold thousands,

Jazmin Furtado: 00:54:48

thousands have been sold.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:54:51

Oh, goodness. I feel like I have to say fiction only because I have never seen said brick. Now, if it does exist, I like want one, but I'm not sure why I want one. Yeah, you are

Jazmin Furtado: 00:55:04

correct. It is Fiction Okay.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:55:07

Okay. So that's what I was like. I was like, I need to go and find this brick

Jazmin Furtado: 00:55:11

So when I was looking up this fact, so it is dog costumes. Dog costumes are very popular. Sold at UPS stores, I guess. So it's

Alexis Bonnell: 00:55:18

a very item. So interesting, the reason why. But I can also see, I can see why those are

Jazmin Furtado: 00:55:24

popular. And I had put brick there because I found out while I was doing this, that. You can just send a brick in the mail. Like if you have your, if you put an address, like in Sharpie on it and you put like a post it, like, yeah, you can just put it in the mail. And then I

Alexis Bonnell: 00:55:40

feel like I feel like this is we are going to kick off some type of like trend on like, you know, on like, I don't know, you know, Instagram or shorts or whatever. And it's going to be like, and you're going to create some kind of like, you've been bricked, right? And it's going to be about saying, like making kind of some kind of statement. But when you do that, Jasmine, like, make it positive, make it like, like, you're, you're my solid friend, like, make it something good, right? Yeah, so when people like brick each other, it's like, you know, yeah, I don't think that I don't think the Postal Service will thank you very much for the amount of weight that all of a sudden they have to carry. But I think you should ride this one. Yeah, it's

Jazmin Furtado: 00:56:17

on their site. Like, I think they're welcome to have it. They have it on their site that you can send a brick. So, you know, send your buddy brick, send it to your favorite. Now

Alexis Bonnell: 00:56:26

that if I don't get a brick, I'm going to be like, Hmm, I guess, I guess we're not buddies.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:56:34

Yeah, you'll know, I'll have to grab, I'll have to, I'll have to grab it from you. All right, the third is about firefighters. So, of the active firefighting personnel in the nation, about 20 percent of them are volunteer firefighters.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:56:56

So, I live in West Virginia, where most of our firefighting units Our volunteer or depend a lot on volunteer. So my guess, my guess would actually be a higher percentage are volunteer than 20%. That is true.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:57:14

Oh my gosh. This is like a record

Alexis Bonnell: 00:57:16

on this. I'm telling you public servants. We know so many random things, Jasmine. Like we just sit there and it's like, well, I know this is how, how our, you know, whatever. And we just like, we, we, we pull our like humanity right out of our backpacks. Right? Like I'm so proud that public service did good in your podcast quiz.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:57:38

They're, uh, let's see, let's see. Yeah. So 53 over half of the floors are volunteer

Alexis Bonnell: 00:57:45

firefighters. Wow. So first of all, shout out to them. Right, like, how, how, what, like, and that's a great example of public service, right? Like, how awesome. So, I did not know it was 53. That is, now I do. So, I won't ever get it wrong, but, like. Yeah, I think we're pretty

Jazmin Furtado: 00:58:04

good. Yeah, thank your local firefighter. There are still two more questions. Oh, bring it, bring it. Okay, the fourth one is about waste management. So, recycling just 10 plastic bottles saves enough energy to power a laptop for more than 25 hours.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:58:22

Oof, the spicy one. I don't know. Um, I think you're tricky. I'm trying to think. Jasmine's a tricky, tricky lady. Uh, I'm going to say true. That is right. Okay, now, and now there's pressure on public service. All right. There's 1 more question. So I'm going to hold my. I'm going to hold my, uh, my excitement. So, so they last 1 on me. All

Jazmin Furtado: 00:58:53

right, the last 1 is about public transportation. Okay. So, traveling by public transportation is 10 times safer per mile. Than traveling by automobile and

Alexis Bonnell: 00:59:06

time safer per mile. Average trip of probably most people in public transport is probably like 3 to 5 miles, maybe 15 miles, I'm guessing. Uh, shout out to Manali Shah, good friend of mine, amazing transport expert at Google. So she would probably know this off of the top of her head. Um, I'm going to say true. Or it's true. Okay. Yes. True. Okay. Yes. I shouldn't have

Jazmin Furtado: 00:59:37

answered so quickly. I was like, I got it.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:59:40

It's either going to be true or it's going to be like more, it's going to be like the numbers off, but still I think true.

Jazmin Furtado: 00:59:47

Yeah, they aren't like your confidence. I was like, all right, she's got it. Yeah. Wow. Congratulations. That was all five questions.

Alexis Bonnell: 00:59:55

This is what happens when you get to play in public sector, because literally all of the things you mentioned are public sector. And, and yeah, like you just get lots of weird stuff in public

Jazmin Furtado: 01:00:07

sectors, learning by osmosis, all the different people,

Alexis Bonnell: 01:00:10

has anyone ever gotten them? All right. Like, do I get

Jazmin Furtado: 01:00:13

People only get like one

Alexis Bonnell: 01:00:14

or two right. I feel like I deserve, like, a gold brick. Like, I des I deserve, like, a brick, and if you send me a brick, I will paint it gold. And I will put it on my thing, and I will write in Sharpie, you know, like, the, like, Futures Jasmine, like, first award y offer on it.

Jazmin Furtado: 01:00:35

Alright, deal. Brick and now I I have condemned myself to sending bricks now in the mail, so I will do that. You have. Well, thank you so much for entertaining this, this game. Um, and, and, you, your, like, reasoning through it, I just really appreciate it, because that's exactly what I envisioned when I created this game. Like, I wanted to see, like, how people would piece apart, like, their... The rationale, so yeah,

Alexis Bonnell: 01:00:59

I went well, that's that's knowledge, right? That's data. You literally saw me doing compute like

Jazmin Furtado: 01:01:05

Right machine learning or something.

Alexis Bonnell: 01:01:07

I was I was like, okay this happens

Jazmin Furtado: 01:01:12

I also wanted to thank you as well for being my guest today, and we will share your journey with all of us that your perspective, I think is greatly needed by folks that are interested in this field. I've heard things about this field, but maybe haven't wanted to take the lead to actually do something. So, yeah, it's been. Really fascinating to hear what you're able to get your hands on and your stories have been amazing and so inspiring. So thank you for your service and what you've done, not just for this nation, but for the world. So I know everyone listening on this call, especially me, has learned something new, gained a new perspective on public services for sure. So thank

Alexis Bonnell: 01:01:51

you. Well, do me a favor. Hug your local public servant. It is not an easy gig, but they really, I work with just some of the most amazing people on earth. Um, it's incredible to serve with them. Um, but hey, like, you know, give them a shout out. Like, thank your local librarian and your local postal worker and things like that. Because they really do, you know, make our lives better, richer, fuller, and our country safer, so.

Jazmin Furtado: 01:02:18

Send

Alexis Bonnell: 01:02:18

them a buddy brick. Yes, and I'm ready for it. I swear you at UPS and USPS are gonna like send you hate mail for this. But like, yes, let's do it.

Jazmin Furtado: 01:02:30

And I would also like to thank Hatch IT as always for sponsoring this episode and allowing me to take hold of the series and host the series. It's just been so great to be able to spend time with people like Alexis. And lastly, I would like to thank the listener yourself for tuning in. Um, and I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us today from wherever you are and exploring the world of data with us. So take care of y'all.

Tim Winkler: 01:03:16

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