Gravity and Grit: How SpaceTech Startups are Pioneering & Prospering | The Pair Program Ep34

Tim Winkler: 00:00:05

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad, and I'm your other host, Mike Gruen. Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of The Pair Program. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, joined by my co host, Mike Gruen. Mike, what's going on? How are you doing? I'm doing all right. How are you doing? I'm good. Good. I wanted to play a quick game with you here. I gave you a little heads up on it, but I'm going to run it by you here. So my wife and I over the weekend, we took a road trip and you know, we're talking about some of our past parents and one that came up was the road trips and car snacks. So here's the game. So if you're on a long road trip and you stop out at a gas station to fill up, you're heading into the store, load up on snacks, drinks for the next leg of the trip. You 10 budget. Okay. What's on that list of items that you're, that you're grabbing without exceeding 10, 10 jerky, jerky of some sort. Uh, okay, well that's expensive.

Derek Strobel: 00:01:21

So you're going to, I think I just hit 9 right there

Mike Gruen: 00:01:24

and then maybe, and maybe, uh, if I can get a cheap cup of coffee or something, depending on what time of day it is or some sort of drink, but

Derek Strobel: 00:01:32

jerky is just a jerky

Tim Winkler: 00:01:34

man. Yeah. For a road trip. Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm going peanut M& Ms. Small bag of Doritos, like the purple bag, the sweet and spicy chili. Uh, Red Bull and a bottle of water. It's a

Mike Gruen: 00:01:49

nice, fully support the peanut. I'm going to have

Tim Winkler: 00:01:51

some, uh, yeah. Peanuts are key. Yeah. I mean,

Derek Strobel: 00:01:54

chocolate, peanut butter, a little protein, a little sweetness.

Tim Winkler: 00:01:58

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. All right. Good, good times. Um, all right, let's, uh, let's, let's give our listeners a preview of today's episode. So today we're going to be talking about the final frontier, uh, space, uh, topic that I'm personally a big fan of. I'm sure a lot of our listeners. We'll appreciate this episode, uh, specifically, we're going to be talking about space tech as a vertical, uh, dissecting how to innovate, um, or I'm sorry, how to innovative startups are kind of pioneering in the industry. So for today's discussion, we've looped in two guests that are joining us from two space tech startups. Uh, we have Ben Reed, who is the co founder and CTO of Quantum Space. Um, also notably worked directly with NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center for a number of years. Uh, and Derek Strobel, the lead software engineer for Kahan Space. Um, also like to highlight that Derek was the first employee hired at this early stage startup. So Ben and Derek, thank you both for joining us on the pair program. Happy to be here.

Derek Strobel: 00:03:02

Thanks for inviting us.

Tim Winkler: 00:03:05

Good stuff. All right. Now, uh, before we dive into the discussion, we do like to kick things off with a fun segment called pair me up. This is where we will go around the room and kind of spitball a couple of, uh, Our favorite parents, Mike, you kick us off. Uh, what do you got for us today? So today's is,

Derek Strobel: 00:03:22

um,

Mike Gruen: 00:03:22

anxiety and courage. Um, so, um, sort of having to get over that anxiety and the courage to do and things like that. It's somewhat personal. Um, my son went off to Boy Scout camp recently. Um, I was very nervous about it, um, because there's, it's a pretty chaotic scene, um, sort of, and dealt with it and got over it and it was turned out to be a great trip. Um, so it's sort of inspiring, just sort of remembering that like anxiety is fine. So it's, you know, that's fine and then the courage to get

Derek Strobel: 00:03:51

over it. So that's,

Tim Winkler: 00:03:52

that's my parent. Cool. I dig that. How long has he gone for? Uh, a week. And it's a, it's a trip he's

Mike Gruen: 00:03:59

done several times, but it gets, there's a lot of sleep deprivation and, uh, it's because it's Boy Scouts. They're sort of responsible for themselves and doing a lot of things. And so it's, um, the anxiety of like, not having to be responsible for getting every single thing done himself and maybe relying on some of the other guys in the troop to pull their weight. Sometimes. So, um, so yeah, so that's

Ben Reed: 00:04:22

nice. It's a, I speak to a lot of school groups and I tell personal story where I've taken the, um. Pretty big career steps in my career and, uh, was not qualified for any of the steps when I took them. But if you, uh, and that made me, you know, a little bit of imposter syndrome and by a little bit, I mean a lot. Um, but I always advise, uh, these, these school aged kids that, uh, in your life, you need to be comfortable with being a little afraid you need to be okay with having little anxiety, because if you're completely qualified for the very next step in your career, well, how big of a step is that, right? Right. That if you really want growth, you need to be able to go for those, those, uh, those quantum leaps, which is actually part of where the name of my company comes from. Um, you have to be comfortable with being a little uncomfortable. Um, and that's sometimes hard for them to grasp, but I think it's an important concept to, uh, to get across early on in, in. Young people's minds.

Tim Winkler: 00:05:23

Absolutely. Yeah, well said. Yeah, I've been reading a book called mindset to it's kind of a, you know, position yourself in that growth mindset versus fixed mindset where growth mindset. It's okay to make mistakes because you learn from them. You grow from them. Um, whereas fixed mindset, you come down on yourself really hard and. You feel shamed. And so it's, uh, it's, uh, it's good to, good to hear that from you, Ben. I'd also say, you know, uh, anxiety sometimes, uh, and bourbon not for boy scouts. You gotta be of age and, uh, we don't advocate all of that for. All right, I'll jump in now. So I'm going to, um, I'm going to go with the chiropractor and euphoria. Um, so I saw a chiropractor for the very first time recently. I've never been to one before. I've always heard mixed reviews from folks on chiros, like, you know, getting adjustments that some horror stories, some amazing stories. Uh, so I had some, some lower back pain for a few months. I thought I'd give it a try. And I had no idea how the equipment all worked, but, um, you know, for those. that I've never experienced this before. I'll paint the picture for you. So they kind of lay you out on a table. Uh, they call it a drop table. Um, it's got these adjustable sections that use hydraulics to kind of raise or lower different sections to target different sections of your spine. And, um, they use this to perform like adjustments. So, uh, no, I haven't never seen one before. Uh, I don't regularly crack my back or my neck. Um, so I can just tell you that this, this woman. This woman cracked the hell out of my body and it felt, it felt incredible. And so it was only about 15 minutes, but afterwards I stood up and. They can only describe this feeling as, as euphoric. So, uh, I have signed up for a few, uh, you know, ongoing, uh, adjustments, uh, the next few months, I'll be sure to kind of give a follow up review and see if it's, uh, still, still serving as that same descriptor, but, um, Have either of you all been to the, uh, chiropractor

Derek Strobel: 00:07:23

before? Sounds kind of scary to be honest. What you just described, I think I'm a little less likely now.

Tim Winkler: 00:07:31

Uh, I had an uncle who went and he became like

Derek Strobel: 00:07:33

addicted to it. So, uh, I've been hesitant. You're not held in my case, Mike.

Ben Reed: 00:07:39

I

Derek Strobel: 00:07:43

had lower back pain for a while and I found that my problem was a lot simpler because I was just spending too much time in my chair. So I got to get out of that problem without having to, the only expensive equipment I needed was my own legs.

Tim Winkler: 00:07:54

There you go. Yeah. Stan standing desk is also helpful. All right, good stuff. Um, well let's go ahead and pass it on to our guests now. So Derek, why don't you give us a quick intro and then, uh, tell us

Derek Strobel: 00:08:06

your parent. Yeah, definitely. So yeah, my name is Derek Strobel. I'm the lead software engineer at Kayon Space as Tim introduced me. So I've been working in space flight safety software for about five years now. And I'm just looking forward to, you know, continuing doing that here at Kayon Space with all that we're doing. So thanks for having me and my pairing today. So I'm a new homeowner actually this year, a first time homeowner. So my pairing is garden related, gardening related. So it's actually, and I also brought props. My pairing is, uh, eating blueberries from my own garden and this hat that I bought that makes me feel like a little farmer. Hey, nice. I'm not a farmer. I just walk around my yard, picking blueberries, eating them right off the bush.

Tim Winkler: 00:08:53

That's fantastic. That is fantastic. What else are, uh, what else are you gardening out there? What are you growing?

Derek Strobel: 00:08:57

Yeah. I mean, it's our first year growing stuff, so there's not a ton. We have like one big raised bed, so we've got tomatoes, obviously, the quintessential summer, summer veggie. Um, which are still all green, but I'm really looking forward to eating one. We grew some cilantro, which I immediately messed up and has since bolted and flowered. Uh, Liv you learned some brassicas. Uh, so going to be expanding our garden a lot next year for sure.

Tim Winkler: 00:09:21

Nice. Cool. Good stuff. Yeah, I've always found like gardening or getting out the yard like that's therapeutic too. It's like a good way to just. Burn off some stress as well. Oh yeah, definitely. And bonus points too. That's the first time we've had props, uh, introduced. So trailblazing Derek, I love it. Awesome. All right. Good stuff. Uh, let's pass it along to our, our next guest, Ben, uh, quick intro from yourself and your

Derek Strobel: 00:09:46

parent.

Ben Reed: 00:09:48

Uh, so intro for myself, uh, father of four kids, four fabulous kids. Um, Been married, uh, 32 years just coming October. I know it's impossible for somebody who looks as young as I do to be married that long. Um, uh, back a decade ago, about somewhere around 2010, my wife said that, um, to help out a friend who was running an animal shelter. Uh, we should foster puppies for them. So we just hold on to the puppy. That's going to be put down in a, in a high kill shelter. We hold on to them until somebody else reviews the application. Thankfully that wasn't, uh, that wasn't me or us. Um, uh, sometimes for a few days, sometimes for a few months until they, until they were adopted to a forever home. So from 2010 to 2020, uh, with the pandemic kind of altered things a little bit. Uh, we fostered about 120 dogs coming to our house. Um, and, uh, so that was, um, sometimes stressful. Uh, but, uh, on the on the balance, it was fabulously rewarding and it was great to my 4 kids growing up to go through that experience to take care of. Of things more helpless than them. Um, so my pairing is a puppies and laminate flooring, you do not want hardwoods. You do not want carpet. You want laminate flooring. Fabulous to clean up. So that's, that's my pairing for the day. Nice. Wow.

Tim Winkler: 00:11:23

That's that's strong, strong prayer. Well played. Well played 120 dogs. That's incredible. So also teaches your kids to let things go, which is a good

Ben Reed: 00:11:35

lesson. Yeah, I'll tell you not to make this podcast about that, but I'll tell you the, uh, people often ask me, how did you, how did you let them go? We had two dogs of our own. One was a foster fail and one was one of those hours, um, beforehand. Um, and so we had to, most the vast majority of people adopting were going from zero to one. Or sometimes zero to two. And so to see the joy that the dog would bring into their lives, it made turning them over so much easier. If, if it was a black wall and I didn't get that. To have the, uh, the experience of seeing their faces light up. It would have been a lot harder, but to see the joy that the puppies were bringing them, it made turning them over, not, not always easy, but, but, uh, uh, incredibly rewarding. Awesome.

Tim Winkler: 00:12:21

That's great. So, so you all didn't ever adopt your own in the house.

Ben Reed: 00:12:26

Yeah, just one. We had a little guy about eight, about, uh, uh, 15 pounds who, uh, Parvo when he was in a, a kennel before coming to us. It was a little bit harder to, uh, to place. And so we kept the little guy and we still have him today. That's our little guy's name is Nathan. So Nathan is still with us today.

Tim Winkler: 00:12:49

Good stuff. Awesome. Well, I love it. Uh, it's a good round. Um, let's, let's, uh, let's keep things rolling here. Uh, transition into the main topic. So, like I mentioned, we're gonna be talking about, you know, navigating the space tech industry and kind of hearing this firsthand from our guest, uh, some of these different use cases with how. Technology is innovating in the space, uh, discuss some of the unique challenges that startups and commercial companies face when, when pioneering in the space, um, talk a little bit about this shift, uh, in the space tech market from government back to commercial backed. And then for those listeners who are curious or interested in exploring opportunities in the vertical. We'll cover hiring and navigating a career in the space tech industry. So, um, a lot to get to, uh, why don't we have, uh, Ben, you kick us off and maybe first give us a little bit of background and context on the work that quantum space is doing, uh, some of these problems that you're solving, and then we'll do the same with you, Derek, on, on KHAN. But let's start with you, Ben. Sure.

Ben Reed: 00:13:54

Uh, so, uh, my career was 22 years with, uh, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. Um, in, in Greenbelt, Maryland, just outside of D. C. Um, I, uh, I, uh, took a rotational assignment to the White House and spent a little time in the White House, um, on the National Space Council staff, uh, back in 2018. Um, and then in 2020, um, about the same time that I was getting out of the dog fostering business, um, I was ready for some new challenges. And so I decided to, um, um, leave the government and I joined up with a gentleman by the name of Cam Ghaffarian, uh, and he and I co founded, uh, Quantum Space. Uh, so we are a company founded on the belief that, uh, as humanity, Expands outward from the earth, the low earth orbit, the geosynchronous orbit and further out towards the moon. Um, that, uh, there is opportunity for a company like quantum to provide essential services, uh, communication services, position, navigation and timing, uh, transportation services. We can give people a ride to that orbit. Uh, we can also host. Their payload on our spacecraft, uh, both in geo and in in si lunar space, uh, out by the moon. Um, and, uh, we, we feel that we bring a tremendous value to our, to our customers, uh, with the experience that we bring, uh, in that space. Um, all activities in space are difficult. Um, but the further away from you go from the earth to give the difficulty goes up nonlinearly. And so, um, anything above the GPS constellation makes navigation, um, much, much harder communication gets more difficult. Um, so we're out there tackling those hard problems. And we look forward to helping our customers, um, uh, do their missions more efficiently and more effectively, uh, with the services that we can provide them.

Tim Winkler: 00:15:58

Very cool. And so it's just a couple of years old. Um, I guess how many employees and, uh, any funding to this point and to what amount?

Ben Reed: 00:16:07

Yeah, so we are a year and a half old. Uh, we started, uh, January of 21. Uh, we're about 35 or so full-time employees, um, with part-time and interns. It's, I don't know, closer to 45 maybe. Um, uh, we are Series A is complete and, uh, oversubscribed, so our funding is solid. Um, no issues there. Um, and, uh, we are continuing to make progress on our, on our plans.

Tim Winkler: 00:16:38

Love it. Uh, yeah, right there in our, our backyard. Is it Rockville, your headquarters? Yeah.

Ben Reed: 00:16:42

Rockville, Maryland, just outside the DC beltway.

Tim Winkler: 00:16:45

Excellent. Awesome. Uh, Derek, how about a little bit more, uh, background on, on

Derek Strobel: 00:16:50

Cajon? Yeah, for sure. So, uh, Cajon Space, we began in 2019 and, um, are kind of like to ship ourselves as a space situation, space situational awareness software company. So, um, the idea being. Um, space situational awareness, you know, sounds like kind of a mouthful, but the idea is really just pursuing space flight safety for satellites by being aware of, um, potential risks to your spacecraft as a satellite operator, right? So whether that's collisions or whatever it may be, um, space situational awareness is the pursuit of. Um, you know, flying, flying spacecraft safely. So, um, and yeah, like I mentioned, we founded the company in 2019. Well, we say we, I was around, but I was not a founder. So I was employed number one into Khan space. Um, along with our CEO, CMXR and, uh, CTR as phasey. Who I've been, I actually have known Samak from a previous, uh, job. So, um, we got along well together and I was serendipitously around for the founding of the company, uh, which has been a pretty wild ride since then. So, um, after that, in 2020, we went through the Techstars, uh, Allied Space, uh, accelerator program, startup accelerator, which was. Um, huge kind of, you know, getting the ball rolling, obviously in 2020, everything was pretty, um, you know, turbulent in the tech industry and just kind of, you know, at large, um, in the world, but, uh, we managed to get through that and, uh, in 2021, we completed our seed round, uh, funding with, uh, Root Ventures and Overline VC that, um, kind of, you Really jump started our hiring process and allowed us to build up to in 2022, we released our, um, our first two kind of flagship products. So those being Cajun Pathfinder, which is our, um, space traffic coordination platform for satellite operators to. Um, analyze conjunction information and basically mitigate the risk of colliding and other spacecraft or debris or anything like that, um, in space, as well as Cajon gamut, which is our, um, launch collision avoidance service. So, for, um, launch missions, um, you know, coming from the earth surface, how do you get into space without hitting anything on the way? There is essentially the problem statement there. Um, yeah, so that's, that's a little bit about Cajon. Um, looking forward to talking more.

Tim Winkler: 00:18:58

Cool. Uh, same questions, I guess, uh, as for Ben, like headcount at this point, um, where, where you all currently stand.

Derek Strobel: 00:19:07

Yeah. Yeah. So the company is based in Boulder, Colorado, but we actually are a hybrid, uh, organization. So I work in Eugene, Oregon. Uh, we have folks scattered all across the U S. Um, right now we run a little bit of a smaller ship, so I think we're right around the 20 headcount, um, at the moment, mostly distributed in engineering. Um, and yeah, in terms of funding, we raised that seed round in 2021 that I mentioned. And, um, nothing more to report there, but, uh, looking forward to, you know, uh, news coming out in the future. Yeah,

Tim Winkler: 00:19:37

I don't think I knew that you guys came through the cut, uh, Techstars, uh, uh, accelerator program. That's really neat.

Derek Strobel: 00:19:42

Yeah, we've had relationships with a few different, um, startup accelerator programs, including, um, the, uh, I should have came prepared with the names off the top of my head. AWS, uh, hyperspace challenge. Um, but Techstars Allied Space was our first big, um, introduction to the world of startup accelerators, which, um, was a new experience for me. It was definitely, um, a big adjustment, but I think it was a great experience. So definitely.

Tim Winkler: 00:20:08

And we'll, we'll certainly have some questions about being first in engineering hire. That's always a fascinating, uh, story in itself, but, uh, let's stay on topic here. Um, let's, let's jump into one of the first, uh, points here. So, so Ben, you know, when we talk about some of these different challenges that, you know, commercial startups will face when innovating in the space tech industry, what, what are some of these challenges? Um, and, and I guess how is, how is quantum addressing these challenges? How are other companies addressing these challenges? Uh, yeah,

Ben Reed: 00:20:39

so, uh, I don't want to imply that space is, is the hardest industry, but we do have some unique challenges that some others don't. Um, and I'll, I'll give an example. I like to give with that is, um. Uh, self driving cars, if you, if you think you got great software, great sensors for a self driving car, you buy a couple of cheap cars and you go to a field. And if you crash into a tree, well, does anybody does anybody cares? Anybody knows you can crash into a 100 trees. Um, as you, as you develop, um, um, your, your prowess in all the necessary technologies. Uh, if you're a space company. And you need to pay for a rocket launch into space. Now you're talking, you know, easily millions of dollars, if not tens of millions of dollars. And some people pay hundreds of millions of dollars just to get to the location that you want to operate in, as opposed to driving into a field. Um, um, and then you turn the thing on and if there's a bad day. You may need to restart and do that over again. And so there is a, uh, a capital barrier to entry to get flight proven systems. Um, and, um, uh, many, uh, government agencies are reticent to. To invest in your product, um, without being flight proven. And so there's this, uh, area between we've developed it on the ground. It hasn't gone to space yet. And that in space world known as the valley of death. Uh, and it is very difficult for some companies to cross the value of death. Some aren't able to do it. Um, some are able to do it. If you're your software only, or very small sensors that can ride along where you're not critical to the functioning of the. Of the larger spacecraft, uh, it's a little bit easier. And so there are ways to nibble at it. And as I'm not suggesting that, that everybody goes through the same hurdles, but, um, but that's kind of a unique challenge that all space companies, um, face. And then, you know, COVID, uh, gave us the same challenges that a lot of industries had, although I must say in some regards, COVID was less challenging for us because the time span to in round terms to Uh, design, develop, build, test, and launch a satellite. Uh, it's hard to do it in less than two years. So, three or four years might be the more typical program last. So, if there's a world pandemic that takes the world down for one year, what is that in a four year cycle? Right. And so for, I know it destroyed some businesses completely, and I feel terrible for those, for those, uh, individuals. Um, so the space industry did not suffer some of the, the terrible causes that, that the pandemic did cause, um, but we have our own unique challenges. So,

Tim Winkler: 00:23:31

and, you know, so you all are building satellites. Um, do you have any currently that are out, uh, that have been launched? Uh, we do not, we

Ben Reed: 00:23:41

are using our funding to develop those satellites. Uh, as I said, in that two, three, four year process. So we're a year and a half into that process. So we are not yet at the buying a rocket stage. Um, so that's, that's a year or two into our future. Um, looking at that, that macro timescale. Um, um, yeah, stay, stay tuned. We will be having additional news about launches coming out shortly, but nothing quite yet to announce. Okay.

Tim Winkler: 00:24:10

Uh, so, so Derek, why don't we, why don't you fill us in a little bit more from like a building perspective, right? You know, you're, you're building software here. What, what kind of challenges are you up against? And, you know, maybe, you know, for your customers, you know, what, what makes this a little bit unique or different from, you know, maybe a, a FinTech software or something along those lines.

Derek Strobel: 00:24:29

Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, the main thing that I, I think we ran into as a young company and continue to, you know, constantly kind of see as a challenge going forward. And I think a lot of space companies will, will agree is basically just availability of data, right? Data is kind of the lifeblood of any software company, obviously. But, um, I would say, especially so in space, almost like Ben was talking about earlier, how, um, you know, we have kind of everyone else's challenges. Yeah. But kind of compounded by just the complexity of space, right? Um, so specifically we're talking about data. Um, you know, data is really hard to come by, especially in the space industry and reliable data that so, um, and when I say data, I'm really talking about relative to chaos space. What we do is predict and try to mitigate the risk of collisions, right? And so that's all about predicting. What's going to happen in the future, right? But predictions are based on, uh, observations, right? They're based on observations of reality that are extrapolated into the future. And if those observations are not of high quality, or if you don't have very many of them, it's really difficult to make those accurate predictions into the future. And if that's your business, then it's, you know, it's important to get and have access to a lot of high quality observation data. And that's something that's very expensive if you want to purchase from commercial data providers. So there's Whole companies whose whole business is basically operating sensors, telescopes, you know, things like that, whether they're on the ground or in space for observing the, you know, positions of, of satellites in orbit, you know, tracking data as, as we refer to it, or also, uh, the U. S. government is a huge data provider in and of itself where they operate, you know, the U. S. D. O. D. Barnum Defense runs a huge sensor network called the Space Surveillance Network that for the, for the purposes of us, you know, an allied nation spaceflight safety collects and distributes a bunch of data. But each one of those comes with its own challenges. I mean, government, you know, provided data, um, has it's subject to export controls. A lot of it is classified or at least the good quality data is classified and kind of difficult to get your hands on, especially if you don't have a big network, right? If you're a small company, you're just getting started. Um, it can be really difficult to kind of get your hands on the, um, the materials, the raw materials needed to produce these kind of, um, you know, high quality products that you want to sell to customers that people need, right? I mean, you know, one of the things Ben was talking about earlier is that barrier to entry for, uh, you know, spaceflight companies to build spacecraft. And one of those barriers to entry that Kahan observes is. The ability to fly your spacecraft safely and be confident that you, you know, you'll see risks coming up in terms of spaceflight safety. So, you know, we want to reduce the barrier of entry to this product or to this, um, you know, reduce the barrier of entry to flying, flying your spacecraft safely. And one of the big challenges that we observe is access to those, uh, those, you know, tracking information to actually make those predictions. Yeah, it's

Tim Winkler: 00:27:16

fascinating. Um, it all seems like it's, it's also moving very fast right now. There's a lot, uh, that's changed over the last, you know, 10 plus years here. Let's, let's touch on some of those things, man, that you've seen, um, you know, some of this transition maybe from. A lot more of these private companies like SpaceX that are popping up, where has, where has this shift gone from that you've, you've seen with like the historical role of the government and space exploration and how it's evolved now, uh, with, you know, a lot more commercial, um, companies getting involved. Yeah.

Ben Reed: 00:27:50

Um. In the early days, uh, back, uh, 50, 60 years ago, basically, uh, well, the government was the dominant, uh, influence and all, uh, space missions. And today it's only dominant in most, um, uh, they, you know, uh, uh, there's a, there's a famous line in the Apollo 13 movie where they're asking. The, uh, the manufacturer of the lunar module, you know, can you do this thing we needed to do? Hey, we weren't signed up to do that. You know, Grumman, Grumman only built it to land on the surface of the moon. Well, we know that, but can it do this other thing? So, so Grumman was around and he'll build the lunar lander. So it's not that contractors haven't been around for a while. They've been around since the beginning, but, uh, the big shift is, uh, for the 1st, um, uh, 4 or 5 decades. Um, they basically did what the government asked them to do and very few some, but but few overall, um, um, commercial space companies were completely independent of government contracts. Uh, the 1 notable exception would be communication satellites, um, geosynchronous communication satellites. Um, fast forward to today, the cost of launch has come down. It's still a crazy high, but it has come down and that has allowed venture back commercial companies like myself. To move ahead with plans, not in absence of trying to win government contracts, but not wholly dependent upon and, um, uh, I guess, because I have 4 kids that were just recently teenagers and 1 still is. Um, I, my metaphor is, uh, in the beginning, uh, commercial space industry was like a child living with a parent. The parent was the government, they did some independent things. They would ride their bike to the pool and come back without the parents, you know, as a 12 year old, but they came back home at the end of the night. Now, despite commercial space industry is no longer a teenager. It's now a 20 year old and it's doing things completely independent of the government. The government is still the single largest owner operator of satellites in space. Um, and the U. S. government is, um, but, uh, there are some companies that are moving out to care less what, uh, what the government is doing. So so there is this evolution of of capabilities, um, and funding to, to, to, to generate those capabilities that just didn't exist in decades past. Um, and I think the future is bright, you know, the greatest things happen when, uh, industries, commercial industries and the government work together, uh, for to do things and, uh, and I think we're going to see a lot more than the future. Everyone says, wow, this is the most exciting time in space. Well, every decade. People say that because it's evolving and it is only growing and growing. So I think our, our brightest, uh, our golden eras are still in front of us. Uh, not behind us. I'm, I'm very bullish on the, on the commercial space, um, um, future.

Tim Winkler: 00:30:56

Yeah, that's exciting. I know that, you know, uh, an easy one to point out would be, I guess, the, the usage of reusable rockets, um, kind of decreasing that cost of, of launching, you know, payloads into space. Um, but you've touched on something as well, Derek, about, um, uh, you know, within like the department of defense, you know, what, what kind of use cases are you seeing, um, as the most viable for, you know, URL software and, Um, I guess, how are you prioritizing like where your, your best product

Derek Strobel: 00:31:28

market fit is? Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, going along with what Ben was saying, um, a lot of the narrative around this topic is that, you know, the shift from the U. S. government as, as, you know, controlling the space industry to the commercial, you know, spaceflight operators. And I think while that's an important conversation, it's definitely. Um, good to keep in mind that as Ben was saying right on the U. S. government is still a huge, huge, the biggest player in the space, right? And so we feel that, you know, or at least I personally feel that, um, the, the key to success in this world is kind of figuring out how to balance those two, right? If you're trying to sell spaceflight safety software or any, any software that has to do with, you know, um, this kind of wild west that we're talking about with, you know, the modern space industry, um, you, you'll have to interact with both entities, right? With commercial entities. Who are, you know, as, as Ben was saying, who kind of couldn't couldn't care less how the U. S. government is operating, they're carrying less and less every year, um, but also acknowledging that the U. S. government is, um, a huge source of funding for U. S. commercial companies who want to sell, you know, sell, uh, software products and, um, and then also, you know, not only that in terms of funding, uh, maybe a less cynical point of view would be, um, the U. S. government and, and, you know, the entities within it are the origins of some of the, you know, Most of the foundation that, that commercial space, flight safety, you know, or, or space flight industry, uh, are built on. Right. All the algorithms and things like that have their roots. Um, or, you know, many of them do in research and, you know, missions flown by the US government, NASA. You know, Noah, all of those kinds of organizations and obviously the DoD, you know, long, long winded way of getting to your question is, um, I think we, we definitely want to balance selling our products to both individuals, small operators, you know, who are commercial, who are not really worried about, um, you know, the. The national security missions or anything like that flown by the U. S. Government who are just have a small, easy to understand business model because they need the barrier of entry, you know, lower to flying their mission safely, but as well acknowledging that there's a huge opportunity for the U. S. Government as well as a customer for us. And one last thing I want to mention on that topic too, is that even with the U. S. Government, um, a lot of the responsibility and the, the, you know, The day-to-day operations of space flight or even shifting within the US government, not just from it. So a good example of that is the tracks or traffic coordination system for space program that's, you know, being undertaken as, as part of this shift from, uh, space flight safety responsibility from the Department of Defense to the Department of Commerce in the US government. So that's a huge kind of seismic shift in the, the big players in, uh, a lot of the, one of the, the kind of big topics in that space. Space traffic management, right? How do you manage all of these spacecraft kind of all, you know, operating independently. Um, so I just wanted to highlight too, that the shift is going on, not just. Between the government and commercial worlds, but within the U. S. Government itself, and that has a big impact on on how we should operate as commercial entities, and that touches a

Mike Gruen: 00:34:30

little bit on what I was going to ask about. So I get and I think then you mentioned it, the idea that like, okay, commercial is caring less and less about what the government want, you know, the need there. But I'm sure the government still cares a lot about the commercial space and making sure that people are operating safety and securely. I think back to I don't know, I'm sure that I read some sci fi. Yeah. Thing when I was a kid about how we all got trapped on the planet because like all these satellites collided and then it was just chaos, you know, because you couldn't leave, you know, couldn't go to orbit. Well,

Ben Reed: 00:35:03

I would say the government cares for 2 reasons. They care for 2 reasons. 1, they want less expensive stuff, right? Why? There's a, there's a little phrase that the Space Force says a lot, uh, buy it if you can and only build it if you must. Right. And so, and, and they care about tax dollars as much as we do. And so they definitely care greatly about what commercial companies like a hand and quantum are doing so they can buy commercial services and not have to build a bespoke system. Uh, themselves. Um, so they care about that. And they also care because the outer space treaty of 1967, which I know you guys keep under your pillow at night. I was just reading it

Mike Gruen: 00:35:49

actually, just as a

Ben Reed: 00:35:49

refresher. Launching states are responsible for, you know, launch supervision and then, uh, launch authorization and continual supervision of every space asset. And so, you know, before you put anything into space, you have to go to multiple government agencies. To get authorization to launch and this is true. This is true worldwide. Um, and so the, the government's, uh, definitely, uh, care what commercial companies are doing for, for both those reasons. Yeah. It's great

Tim Winkler: 00:36:22

to hear about the, you know, the venture capital side of things, um, obviously, you know, needed for the commercial startup side of, of those, the next wave of companies innovating. Um, it sounds like also, you know, we're, we're tracking a lot of these, you know, smaller satellites, you know, it's almost like a miniaturization of Satellites. Being, being launched. So it's, it's creating obviously, you know, supply and demand thing, right? So the more satellites that are getting pushed out, there's going to be a demand for many more companies to help them with like navigating, you know, not colliding with one another and so forth. So, um, uh, love to see, you know, a little bit more of that increase happening in the space. Um, I did want to, um, you know, spend some of the remaining time here talking about, you know, a lot of folks super interested and intrigued on how to tap into, into this industry. Um, you know, so hearing it firsthand from you all, so Derek, let's start, let's start with you here on this. Um, you know, I, I know that you mentioned that you had a connection with the founders from a previous past life. But, you know, when you all are hiring engineers and, and looking for talent, you know, what is it that you're kind of looking for from a, you know, from a skillset perspective, what kind of experience do you really kind of prioritize that you think would flourish in

Derek Strobel: 00:37:38

this industry? Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, the biggest thing I want to encourage folks who are looking to break into kind of the space software industry, and I, I, you know, I kind of blighted it right there, is that intersectionality, right? Or, or interdisciplinary nature of it, right? I mean, uh, you know, as Ben was saying, everything we do in, in space flight is a difficult problem, but there actually also difficult for a couple of different reasons that are related to both software and aerospace engineering kind of in tandem. So what I, you know, I'm always looking for candidates who. Demonstrate that at least they're willing to kind of really deeply dig into both of those dual aspects of the of the job, right? I mean, every problem that we solve when we're building spaceflight software of any kind is both a very complex engineering problem in and of itself for software engineers to solve, but also has. A lot of complexity just in the domain specific, you know, problems that we're solving in aerospace itself. So, so candidates who are either have experience or even just show a, uh, a willingness to kind of dig into the problem that they're passionate about, you know, space flight and space in general, and, you know, understanding those, those deep problems. Um, I think that's the number one thing that I would communicate, you know, not everyone's going to be able to get an MS in software and aerospace engineering. That's, you know. What we call a unicorn candidate in tech, I guess, but you know, we're not looking for those people necessarily as so much as people who demonstrate a strength, but also an interest in the other aspect, you know, awesome.

Tim Winkler: 00:39:04

Yeah, Ben, I'm going to flip the same question to you over at quantum space. And what is it that you all really interested in when you're talking to folks? Yeah, I think,

Ben Reed: 00:39:12

I think Derek hit it. Um, you it's, it's hard to train passion. If you get somebody who's passionate about what they do. Yeah, that is that is worth a tremendous amount. Um, uh, in particular, I'll only speak for my, um, uh, my company. Uh, uh, uh, willingness to be along the journey, the way finding journey. All right, there are some companies that build widgets and they've been doing it for years. And when you join that company, you know, you're going to be building more widgets. Um, uh, that is not yet the case with our company. We, uh, we have a North star vision to provide essential services. to entities going into geo and cislunar space. But the specific path, what we're going to be working on next month, it might change slightly. And then, you know, it's called wayfinding, right? You get to the top of the mountain, but there's a tree right in front of you. Well, you go around the tree. So, for a brief period of time, you're not going directly towards the top of the mountain. You're going orthogonal to it. So, having an employee or a candidate when we interview them. That is comfortable with a bit of wayfinding because they know the North Star vision is worth it. And the reward is going to be, uh, is going to be there to be part of something greater than themselves to be part of a new company that's growing. Um, but, you know, willing to to be along the journey for that wayfinding. Um, those are 2 big aspects that that we look for when we do our hiring.

Mike Gruen: 00:40:40

I'm curious, Ben, you touched on this earlier about the timeline it takes for some of these projects to go. And I think that's probably another area that's very different between some of the other spaces, right? And like, I worked with a guy, he was, his first job was at Garvin. Um, and he was like, it took forever, like every change, like there were 15 tests that needed to be updated in months and months and months of testing before, like, Anything happened and I'm curious, like, is that still sort of the case? Um, I assume it is.

Derek Strobel: 00:41:08

Um,

Ben Reed: 00:41:08

yeah. Yeah, that's a super insight. Um, um, I have a good friends of mine who, like I mentioned, I worked at Goddard and I, I staged a prop for the video. You see my, my Hubble space telescope over my shoulder. I worked on the last 3 hubble servicing missions when I, when I 1st joined NASA. That was what's what I did the 1st 12 years. I, I worked the 1st, 3 hubble servicing missions and that was the 1st, 10 years 2009 to 1999 to 2009. Um, and I was super lucky in 10 years. I had three missions under my belt. I know people that joined working James Webb Space Telescope. They worked on that project for 25 years, and then they had their first launch. Now, there's a lot of milestones along the way. We passed this test. We passed this milestone. We passed this other milestone. But if you're looking for those really big payoffs in the space business. You got to find your time sometimes and look at the look at the wonderful payoff that the web employees got when that thing got to orbit. So, so I, I can't imagine their relief when that rocket succeeded and that lift off. Right? Um, and then all the deployments. But is that something

Mike Gruen: 00:42:18

that you sort of interview, like, when you're talking to candidates, are you trying to gauge, like, their. Um,

Tim Winkler: 00:42:24

that's sort of

Mike Gruen: 00:42:25

ability to deal with that, I guess, is sort of my

Tim Winkler: 00:42:27

question. Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know

Ben Reed: 00:42:30

that it's that it's an interview question to say, are you comfortable not getting a launch for a year? Um, most people we interview are somewhat familiar with the aerospace business. You know, um, and so, uh, that is a, that is a very good insight, but, uh, yeah, that doesn't really come up in the interview. Maybe that's just implicit when they, when they, uh, um, uh, applied to work for a space company that the milestones might be, the big milestones might be, might be years apart.

Tim Winkler: 00:43:00

Yeah, probably not, you know, talking to the, the, the B2C, uh, you know, flippers out there. Um, cool. Let's, um, uh, I guess I, I just have one more question before we, we jump into the final segment. So, you know, uh, just from murals, you know, research and what you're, you're hearing out there, what, what are some of, you know, any future trends in this industry that you're, um, you're keen to, or that you're really. Cued in on, uh, any, any future trends in the space tech industry that, that you'd like to share

Derek Strobel: 00:43:32

or you're getting excited about? I've got one, you know, right off the top of my head, which is kind of relates to what I was talking about with the, um, the, uh, tracks program with the U. S. government, the traffic coordination, coordination system, and really it's about coordination between satellite operators, right? Um, so space traffic coordination, I guess, is the, you know, the terminology would use, um, you know, basically just having kind of establishing the, uh, the precedent that spaceflight operators are, you know, talking to one another and coordinating for the purpose of spaceflight safety, I think is. You know, it's a huge industry shift that's kind of happening right now. And part of those, you know, there's a lot of commercial companies like ourselves who are very invested in this process, but also as I mentioned, you know, the U S government is keenly aware of the problem and putting a lot of resources into developing, you know, systems and tools and all, you know, all of that stuff to, you know, address the problem. So I think it's, I think it's very important that we kind of face it head on and really think, you know, not just how we can solve this problem as it exists today, but, you know, as you guys were talking about. As in five years and 10 years as the population of especially Leo in particular grows more and more, um, how can we establish systems now that are going to be, you know, still reliable and robust and scalable up to the point when we have many, many more spacecraft and businesses, individual businesses and entities trying to all operate in this, you know, shared space environment.

Tim Winkler: 00:44:54

And maybe just to clarify for listeners that, that aren't queued in Leo

Derek Strobel: 00:44:58

means low earth orbit. Yeah. So basically the, the, the closest things to earth that are above, you know, the common line are considered in space. Yeah. What

Ben Reed: 00:45:09

just comment on Leo for a second, because I speak to a lot of school groups, uh, again, pointing to Hubble over my shoulder, which is about at the same altitude as the international space station. When Hubble passes overhead here in Washington, DC, it's closer. Uh, to DC, then driving from here to New York city, low earth orbit is pretty darn low, right? It is like low, um, it is only hundreds of miles up and then, you know, you can go way out. The moon is quarter of a million miles and things start really getting far away after that. Yeah. Leo is pretty, pretty low.

Tim Winkler: 00:45:42

That's fascinating. And then you all are also doing a lot of work between, you know, the earth and moon and the moon. Is that right? Okay.

Ben Reed: 00:45:51

Um, so the trends, sorry.

Tim Winkler: 00:45:53

Yeah. Yeah. So trends that you're, that you're excited about or you're picking up on.

Ben Reed: 00:45:57

Yeah, um, so, uh, mobility, mobility is, um, is desired for for a lot of folks. So, um, Kepler is, you know, 1st discovered the motions of the planets by Keplerian motion. Um, and what's, uh, the magic of a Keplerian motion is it takes no energy to stay in it, right? Once you get trapped in it, once you are in the Keplerian orbit, takes no energy. The flip side of that is if you want to do anything but stay in that orbit, you need to spend energy. You need to expend propellant out of the back end and make yourself go forward. Right? Equal and opposite. Um, so for the first 60 years, 99 percent of every satellite gets into a Keplerian orbit and just stays there for its entire life. And then it gets retired or turns into a piece of debris. Um, but people are looking for are envisioning missions where they want to have mobility. They want to move. They want to change orbits and a propellant tank on a spacecraft sometimes really big. It's a huge percent. Um, I think a geo spacecraft, a geosynchronous orbit spacecraft. Half of the launch mass, half of the weight of that thing sitting on the launch pad is fuel, and that goes into a Keplerian orbit and stays there the rest of its life. And so you can imagine if you wanted to have the flexibility to move your satellite around for, to collect more science, to do more exploration, or to figure out what the bad guys are up to. Um, that requires fuel, that requires propellant, and so there's a big trend in the industry, a big macro trend. Where people lots of, uh, government agencies, but I used to do when I was with NASA before I left, um, was work on robotic refueling the ability to refill the satellite to give it more life to give it more mobility. It gives generals and scientists and astronauts alike the ability to do more things in space. Um, and, uh, it is not commonplace today. Only one thing is routinely refueled, and that's the International Space Station. Everything else, it's, it's a crazy one off, or it never, never gets refueled at all. 99. 99999 percent of all satellites will die with the single load of fuel they had when they launched. Um, but ask me again in 5 years and again in 10 years, and that percent is going to start to swing the other direction.

Derek Strobel: 00:48:19

Yeah, absolutely. If I could chime in on that mobility topic too, because I think it's also really important. Um, two things. So there's one, uh, I think it's a huge industry trend. There's a lot of commercial companies also working on this problem. Uh, shout out to orbit fab, who's a friend of chaos space. Um, so it's, it's definitely an active field that's being developed. And also, I also want to tie it back to spaceflight safety. You know, Ben mentioned a lot of mission specific, uh, you know, use cases for having, you know, propellant on the spacecraft to expend. Um, you know, collecting more science or whatever it may be. But another huge use case for mobility on spacecraft is for avoiding, you know, mitigating the risk of conjunction. Right? Um, that's something that we deal with all the time. We have a lot of, you know, ran into a lot of cases where operators have a spacecraft there that we can predict the conjunction, but they can't mitigate the risk of that conjunction because the spacecraft isn't maneuverable. So that's another huge, huge trend in the industry that I think we should really try and pursue is having more spacecraft be maneuverable, um, not only for their own benefit for science, but also for mitigating the risk of conjunctions. I like to use conjunctions of collision.

Tim Winkler: 00:49:19

We like to keep it theoretical

Derek Strobel: 00:49:22

when we're talking about satellites colliding. We keep it theoretical space.

Ben Reed: 00:49:27

Think about that next time you're on the DC Beltway. Yeah.

Derek Strobel: 00:49:32

It's a conjunction officer, I promise.

Tim Winkler: 00:49:36

Well said. All right. Well, let's, uh, let's close out here with, uh, with our final segment. Um, so we're going to transition to, uh, a segment that we call the five second scramble. Uh, so this is where we're going to do a rapid fire Q and a with, with both of our guests. Um, some business, some personal, I'll try to answer within five seconds. If you can goes over, we won't air horn you and anything like that. So Let's start with you, Ben. Um, are you ready? All right. Um, what is your favorite part of the culture at quantum space?

Ben Reed: 00:50:09

Uh, camaraderie working together as a team.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:12

Nice. What kind of technologist thrives at quantum space? Uh,

Ben Reed: 00:50:19

willingness to tackle new things, even if it's not what they're, they were trained or brought into the company to do. What traits do you

Tim Winkler: 00:50:26

value most in your co founders?

Ben Reed: 00:50:30

Um, I would say their ethics and their passion.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:34

What can our listeners be excited about with quantum space in 2024 and beyond?

Ben Reed: 00:50:41

Uh, getting our spacecraft in orbit and providing, uh, uh, all the services I mentioned earlier to them.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:48

Nice. Uh, what aspects of your culture do you most fear losing with growth? Hmm.

Ben Reed: 00:50:56

That's a great question. Fear of losing its growth. Um, uh, I guess a sense of camaraderie go back to that, right? It's harder in larger companies to know everyone by name and all the details of their lives. Um, so that, that's something that I'd be ashamed to see go away. Okay.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:12

Describe your ideal breakfast

Ben Reed: 00:51:14

meal. Oh, I'm a big breakfast guy. Normally it's just cold cereal, but I'm down for, you know, two runny eggs, sausage, toast, a cup of coffee.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:26

Just describe the Grand Slam. There you go. Exactly. What's something that you are good at, but you hate doing? Uh,

Ben Reed: 00:51:38

good at, but I hate doing. Um... Well, I'm not going to say picking up after my dogs, uh, let's see, um, uh, I would say, uh, I guess maybe writing proposals. I'm a pretty good writer, but, uh, I don't say that, uh, I relish it before I begin. I

Tim Winkler: 00:51:57

think many would agree with you, uh, in the proposal writing space. What, um, uh, in a fictional world from a book or movie, which one would you choose? Let

Ben Reed: 00:52:11

Uh, let's see. Uh, I guess Star Wars. Yeah. Love Star Wars fans right on

Tim Winkler: 00:52:17

theme here as well. Um, what is the worst fashion trend that you ever followed? The worst

Ben Reed: 00:52:24

fashion? Well, I have no hair and now, but, uh, As a kid, my hair is very wavy, but all my friends had long hair. So I tried to follow them and I look like Bozo the clown straight out instead of down, but I, I kept it for a long time and I should have seen the writing on the wall.

Tim Winkler: 00:52:43

So it's those pictures in the show notes, uh, the fact, what was your dream job as a kid?

Ben Reed: 00:52:52

I worked four years on a university grounds crew cutting grass, and it doesn't seem like a lot of fun to be in the hot sun in North Carolina cutting grass. But I I, I had a great group of guys that I worked with and you're outdoors every day cutting down a tree or, or doing something, you know, like that. And that was, that was a lot of fun. That's great.

Tim Winkler: 00:53:14

Um, uh, last, last question here. A hypothetical, if you were traveling to Mars for a, you know, nice little, little vacation, what are three possessions from, from home that you would have to take with you?

Ben Reed: 00:53:29

Three possessions from the home that I got to take with me, uh, uh, let's see, I guess my star Wars collection of movies. Um, I'm a chili head. I love crazy hot, uh, salsa and hot sauce. So I got to bring a bottle of, uh, That's something too hot, you know, other than a drop at a time. Um, and I got to have chips to go with that. Right. You got to have the chips and salsa together. So that's what I'll go with. Yeah. Yeah. Movies,

Tim Winkler: 00:53:59

chips, and salsa. I mean, I'm in let's go tomorrow. That's great. I've actually been following, um, a little bit of a trend. It was from a pairing, uh, on the show, um, which is chips and hot sauce, just like dabbling a little hot sauce on the chips versus traditional salsa. Um, I think they're using like Tapatio or something. Not too, not too intense, but it sounds like you're, you've got a, a serious heat factor that you're working with then. Yeah. My

Ben Reed: 00:54:24

nephews, uh, cajoled me into doing that with, uh, Satan's blood. So me and all my, my two boys and all my nephews, we all did Satan's blood on a chip. And that was, uh, that was pretty painful. Just

Tim Winkler: 00:54:38

fried your, your taste buds. Yeah. All right, good stuff. That's a, that's a wrap for you. You're, you're all set. Um, let's jump over to you, Derek. You ready? I'm ready. All right. Um, explain Cajon space to me as if I were a five year

Derek Strobel: 00:54:54

old. Uh, don't crash your satellite. Do it this way instead.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:59

How would you describe your culture?

Derek Strobel: 00:55:02

Um, close knit. I would say we're all really good friends.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:05

Excellent. What kind of technologist thrives at Kahan space?

Derek Strobel: 00:55:10

I would say someone who is opinionated, but rational and willing to accept when we've come to the final, you know, uh, product that, that everyone agrees on.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:22

What can folks be most excited about for Kayhan heading into 2024 and

Derek Strobel: 00:55:27

beyond? Yeah, new features for sure. Um, definitely, uh, collaborations as well. Excellent. Um,

Tim Winkler: 00:55:37

what, uh, if you could have any superpower, what, what would it be and why?

Derek Strobel: 00:55:42

Ooh, superpower. Yeah. Um, maybe, maybe green thumb superpower to go with my gardening.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:51

There you go. What, um, we're going to keep with the Mars theme here. So if you were, um, if you're going to establish the first fast food restaurant on Mars, what, what, uh, what are you picking?

Derek Strobel: 00:56:04

Ooh, well, I'm a, I'm a vegetarian, so I'm not going burger. Maybe we'll go with some onion rings. Yeah. Mars, Martian onion rings.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:13

Nice. Okay, I could get behind that. What, um, what's something that you like to do, but you're not very good at?

Derek Strobel: 00:56:24

Ooh, good question. Let's see. Something I like to do, but I'm not very good at. Uh, maybe, maybe running. Yeah, just like, just like exercising in general is really what I was going for. Always feels good after I'm doing it, but boy, am I sad while I'm doing it.

Ben Reed: 00:56:43

Yeah,

Tim Winkler: 00:56:44

that's, that's, uh, agree on that. Um, what's a charity or a corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Derek Strobel: 00:56:52

Ooh, yeah. Um, well, in my local area, we have the McKenzie river trust, which is basically for maintaining the wild area around the McKenzie river in Oregon, which is, uh, I'm definitely very passionate about. Awesome.

Tim Winkler: 00:57:04

What's something that you're very afraid of

Derek Strobel: 00:57:08

dying? Yeah. Just mortality in general,

Tim Winkler: 00:57:12

for any reason, might be the number one answer on the board.

Derek Strobel: 00:57:16

I bet you haven't gotten that one before, though. Keep

Tim Winkler: 00:57:19

it simple. Who is the, um, Who is your greatest superhero?

Derek Strobel: 00:57:25

Of all time? It's gotta be Spider Man. Yeah, I'm a big Spider Man fan. I just watched the new animated, uh, Into the Spider Verse, or Across the Spider Verse. Excellent movie. It's good.

Tim Winkler: 00:57:36

Yeah, we get Batman, Spider Man, top two answers there. So, um, that's it. That's a wrap. That was, uh, That was a good one. That was fun. I appreciate you guys. dropping by and spending time with us. We're, we're both excited to keep tracking the innovative work that your, your companies are doing. And, uh, uh, again, appreciate you spending time with us on the pod.

Derek Strobel: 00:57:58

Thanks for having us.

Ben Reed: 00:57:59

It's been tremendous fun. Thanks so much for inviting me.