How I Got Hired in Product with Alex Gunter

Tim Winkler: 00:00:00

Hey, listeners, Tim Winkler here, your host of The Pair Program. We've got exciting news introducing our latest partner series Beyond The Program. In these special episodes, we're passing the mic to some of our savvy former guests who are returning as guest hosts, get ready for unfiltered conversations, exclusive insights, and unexpected twist as our alumni pair up with their chosen guest. Each guest host is a trailblazing expert in a unique technical field. Think data, product management, and engineering, all with a keen focus on startups and career growth. Look out for these bonus episodes dropping every other week, bridging the gaps between our traditional pair program episodes. So buckle up and get ready to venture beyond the program. Enjoy.

Becca Moran: 00:00:53

I'm Becca and this is How I Got Hired. How I Got Hired is a series of interviews where product managers share how they landed great product roles from PMs who made a career pivot into tech to those with more formal training. How I Got Hired captures the various ways to open doors into the world of product. We'll be talking about each guest's recipe for success, what motivated them to get into product, how they prepared for the interview, and what they did to set themselves apart. Today, my guest is Alex Gunter. Alex is the staff product manager at Xometry, which is an online marketplace for custom manufactured parts. I hired Alex at Xometry back in 2017, and I'm really looking forward to sharing that story today. So Alex, welcome to the show.

Alex Gunter: 00:01:45

Thank you very much, Becca, for thinking of me and inviting me on. Of course.

Becca Moran: 00:01:50

Um, well, before we get into the story of how you got hired at Xometry, uh, wanted to do a little bit of an icebreaker. So are you ready for a little two truths and a lie? I sure am. Okay. Um, I can go first. So mine are all, they're like three things, uh, that I may or may not have done during quarantine. Um, okay, so during quarantine, I did the following. I became obsessed with baking bread, number two. I learned to play the banjo, number three. I attempted to fix a 40 year old sailboat engine.

Alex Gunter: 00:02:40

What do you think? Hmm. I'm going to go with learning to play the banjo. You think that's the lie?

Becca Moran: 00:02:48

That's the lie. Wrong. I know. Shock. I'm sure, uh, you know. It seems surprising as a, a instrument of choice, but I did in fact, uh, learn to play the banjo. I can, I can play one song pretty well. Uh, I did, I watched a, a YouTube kind of series called the 30 days of banjo that taught me to play this song. And, um. Yeah. Been, been picking a tune ever since.

Alex Gunter: 00:03:20

Becca, did you start having a banjo and deciding, let me find a way to play it? Or did you have the idea and then you went out and got the banjo?

Becca Moran: 00:03:29

No, there was, um, it had always kind of been a little like idea in the back. I've just always loved the banjo. I think it's like a really interesting instrument and has a cool sound and, um, but I don't know anything about music. Like I don't. Read music. Like I never played an instrument. Um, but a banjo came up for sale on, um, the neighborhood listserv where I used to live. And I was just like, I have to have it. Like, this is a sign. It's a really nice banjo. And, um, the guy that sold it to me, I guess it was like his father's and he had like, he played guitar, but he had never learned to play it. And Um, I, uh, lied when I got the banjo and said that I knew how to play because I was kind of concerned that like if He knew that I didn't know how to play it. He like, might not want to sell it to me, thinking that I might never learn how to play it. Um, which added like a pressure. Um,

Alex Gunter: 00:04:30

I

Becca Moran: 00:04:33

can't just have this banjo sit there. Like I, I owe it to this guy to actually play it. So, um, no, it's been a lot of fun and it's a good reminder that you can learn anything, especially these days on YouTube. So

Alex Gunter: 00:04:48

that is true. All right. So for my two truths and a lie, I'll start with when I was in high school, I wrote a letter to the Mac addict magazine, protesting Apple moving away from the striped multicolored logo during that think different ad campaign. And the letter was published in the, you know, hard. Paper, uh, magazine. The second one would be that since Guns N Roses got back together, I have seen them in concert three times. And the third one will be that by the time I graduated high school, I. Had been to or lived in seven different countries. Oh,

Becca Moran: 00:05:33

that's tough because I feel like all of those things seem very plausible for

Alex Gunter: 00:05:39

you. Since you know me, I thought I'd go with the most plausible. Oh my

Becca Moran: 00:05:44

gosh. Um, I don't know the first one. There's so much detail to that. That was. Um, and I feel like you did move around a lot. Wait, what was the middle one?

Alex Gunter: 00:06:05

Seeing Guns N Roses in concert three times since they got back together just, uh, recently.

Becca Moran: 00:06:12

Gosh. I'm gonna say maybe that one's a lie? Nope.

Alex Gunter: 00:06:20

It's actually the third one and I threw you off because it was only five countries. Oh, okay.

Becca Moran: 00:06:25

I was gonna say, I'm like, I'm pretty sure you lived in a bunch of places, but, um, wow. So does Guns N Roses, have they aged well?

Alex Gunter: 00:06:36

You know, they have the same set of songs and there might be, I don't know, 20 years of not being on tour that they were making up for. So I just figured, let me go once with. My wife, once with my brother, once with my brother in law and my wife. And the setlist was pretty much the same for all three. So I think I got, you know, uh, seeing them live, but it was fun to go. And that's,

Becca Moran: 00:07:02

that's amazing. Yeah, I feel like with some of these older bands that do that, whether it's a reunion tour or whatever, I've, I've heard mixed reviews. Like my parents saw, um, meatloaf, um, before he passed, I think he's dead now. Um, rest in peace meatloaf. But, um, they said he was just terrible, really not holding it together. But then you've got people like, Paul McCartney, who's just still crushing it. So, um, you never know what you're going to

Alex Gunter: 00:07:33

get. And after the pandemic, I think there's a pent up demand to see live entertainment. So whether it's Rolling Stones still touring or all the other bands that have to put it off, lots of, lots of concerts to see if, uh, if you're up for it.

Becca Moran: 00:07:52

Yeah, that's right. Well, awesome. Um, so let's talk a little bit about your, uh, your story of how you got hired at Xometry. So, um, I think the best place to start here is just kind of understanding, like, where were you right before? Like, what, what was the role that you were in pre xometry? What were you doing there? Um, and then, Maybe talking a little bit about like where this, this interest in products, like what kind of sparked

Alex Gunter: 00:08:26

that? So I think it's about six years ago that I had been working in a media company. It was spot cable. So cable advertising, but at the local level in the sales operations role. So interviewing, hiring, and managing some of the support staff for the sales team here in the Maryland area, the Bethesda office headquartered up in New York. And that. It was different than what I studied, economics and public policy, minor in business. The angle that drew me to that role in that company was being in DC, interest in campaigns and politics. And it happened to be the office that dealt with most of the political spending. So both sides of the aisle, uh, not just presidential, you have elections going on all the time. Off years as well as issue advertising and so the proximity to that, of course, often in political Washington Post, you might have blurbs written about ad spend budgets, sending a signal. If someone's kind of shifting into a state or pulling budget back, it's a hint of. Where, uh, where a campaign is headed. So being able to see that literally as the buys would come in, you know, trying to get on the air for the next day for about a week at a time had me in a two year cycles of staffing up many temps and using different temp agencies to get. Um, probably double in size, a number of people in the office, and it's a lot of data entry. It's a lot of managing changes that are at the last minute, right? Usually a 1 p. m. or a 2 p. m. cutoff. If the advertiser, the campaign, or the issue group wanted to make changes for the next day, right? There's a cutoff there. So, uh, lunches were later in the afternoon during the busy season, trying to get those last changes, uh, sent over to Comcast and the other, uh, cable operators. So, that was Seven or eight years working at that company and watching it grow as the spot cable business group.

Becca Moran: 00:10:37

And so how do you go from something like that to Xometry?

Alex Gunter: 00:10:45

Looking for product management and actually having a chance, I think for a few years to work closely with the developers at it was national cable communication, uh, NCC media. And so there was a kind of homegrown proposal management system. Working with the developers to improve it, get more data, more accurately entered when some of these media buys would come in. So I had a chance to work as they were switching over from Waterfall to Agile, learning it together. And because I was so close to the staff that were the end users of these systems. Writing up the bug reports, the feature requests, sitting with a salesperson and saying, okay, here's some, um, you know, useful information for the, the development team. However, there was an offer that I got and it was in Chicago. And so with my wife working downtown, I had to decline that. And I started looking within the DC area and because it's a big area, Virginia, DC proper and, um, and Maryland. Occurred to me, why don't I just start in Bethesda, right? You know, what are some of the other employers that are literally the same commute? And that's when, for the first time, I think I saw Xometry and some of the postings, um, 2016, 2017, around that time. So this,

Becca Moran: 00:12:11

the position that you were offered in Chicago, was it like a product position within NCC Media? Or was it, what was that role?

Alex Gunter: 00:12:24

That's right. And the reason for the location was that despite having a small sales staff, Managing the political business in Bethesda and DC, the office in Chicago is where most of the developers and the tech team, uh, resided. So they wanted, I think, to have a product manager presence there and it wasn't the first PM role at the company. I think there was a few, um, already, but that constraint led me to say, I really appreciated getting a chance to do. Product management, in addition to hiring, you know, hundreds of, uh, data entry, you know, coordinators. And I decided to look within the DC area because it validated. I like it. I would like to do it.

Becca Moran: 00:13:13

And did you know when you first started to do that kind of work and, and when you were working with some of the engineers, like, did you know that was product work or like, yeah, or was it just like, yeah, I'm just doing these things. And then the pieces started to come together

Alex Gunter: 00:13:32

at that point. I hadn't taken that general assembly class. It would come, uh, you know, from the beginning of 2017. So whether it was product owner or product manager, I just saw the need for the interpretation layer right between the end users and the developers trying to be heads down for some amount of time. So when they started doing sprints and users were employees, right? Uh, a direct message away from saying and this too. So they, I think, gave me the chance to learn what that product manager role could be. Yep. And sit in the room with the product manager and the head of sales who, um, you know, we're in charge of creating a new platform, um, for this kind of media proposal management that was going on.

Becca Moran: 00:14:25

Yeah. So you mentioned this general assembly, um, product class that you did, what prompted you to take that

Alex Gunter: 00:14:34

class? So that's a, that's a fun story because I had my heart set on product management and product. Yeah. When the constraint was yes, but Chicago and so I declined that my manager at the time suggested You should take a class, right? That is paid for by N. C. C. Media because you just told everyone this is my last year not being a product manager. And so one way to let everyone know that you're still invested in N. C. C. Media would be to take this class. I think you get reimbursed as long as you stay at the company. You know, some amount of time later. So I looked around and it was an in person two nights a week, I think two hours each night. So long days, and it was in the spring, but it's always busy when it's political advertising. And so that advice led me to take the class. Not knowing how soon after that I would actually be able to move into product management somewhere else. In other words, paid for that class myself. Not getting reimbursed for it, right? It was worth it and all of it was great, but it was a way to show, Alright, you know, continuing education paid for by NCC Media. And it was in product management.

Becca Moran: 00:15:51

Yeah, it's super interesting because I think, you know, it like what you've described, right? Where you have this opportunity to move into a product role within the organization. Um, that's certainly something that, you know, I've. Seen and kind of experienced on my own. Um, but it can be hard to make that transition. Like you start looking for a product job, but you don't actually have like official product experience. Like, of course you can take what you were doing and you can frame that and talk about how, even though your title may not have been product manager, like it was product work, um, but it can be hard, right. So you're going to make that transition and convince a new organization. Um, to take a bit of a chance on you. And so, um, I do think the, um, you know, taking a course is a really good way to just like, bolster that experience a little bit and have something that you can point to and say, like. Okay, I know. I know the fundamentals for sure. Um,

Alex Gunter: 00:17:00

and that's one of the other benefits for me was that and there was a lot, right? Like two features, but I was contributing to this bigger product called optics. If you are doing some level of design or product work at a company, that's not exactly what you put into your portfolio or your resume. Whereas when you take a class, whether it's a pitch deck or a brief or something, right? Yeah. That is absolutely a good, uh, artifact, right? To include in any, you know, future career applications or, or just general portfolio. So it made it a lot easier having, uh, materials from that class to just put them on my LinkedIn, right?

Becca Moran: 00:17:43

Yeah, I remember seeing that. So, um, so you had reached out to me. So you had identified Xometry as a, a company that you were interested in. And, um, if you want to share the story of kind of your, your process from there and, and kind of how you found me and, and what your thinking was in, in that outreach.

Alex Gunter: 00:18:07

Sure. So during the class, what I was encouraged by is it became a bit of a support group. Uh, people that were mid career, right? Switching from one industry, you know, and trying to get into product management. So during the class and then after, I think it was 6 to 8 weeks, I kept in touch with some of the other students encouraging each other and one of the either advice that I heard and I know there were different events that I would go to, uh, was using that general assembly network. Right. It's a commonality. You send a message to someone and if you've gone to the same university, it is slightly better chance. They say, Oh, it's been a while since I helped someone from my alma mater. Well, with general assembly being, uh, more recent and teaching topics that I think you still can't get a product management undergrad degree, maybe masters, maybe some ongoing. But I started looking at who in the area has taken a GA class and. There were many across the world, so I'd connect with them and, you know, kind of follow them as they did land PM roles and whatnot. But at some point, combining Xometry with, you know, product management, um, you came up in LinkedIn. And I think your title at the time was product manager. I think I reached out before or during the class. I'm taking a G8 class would love to connect. And then Once the class had ended, right? And I think at that point, I had like uploaded, um, you know, the pitch deck, right? Uh, an idea called in PDA, which was kind of a wiki for employees and questions and answers. And I think it was that subsequent message that you replied to, you know, you want to have coffee, whereas the initial one was, Hey, I'm going to be taking this class, you know, maybe not asking a specific, uh, ask a few, but that's how we, I think that led to that meeting at

Becca Moran: 00:20:14

Starbucks. Yeah, and I had taken, um, a, uh, front end web development class through General Assembly and, um, I had done that similar kind of thing. I was at Politico at the time. I had just moved on to our tech team. Um, I was so lost and so confused and, um, I was like, you know, I just, I feel like I need a little bit, something to like help me And, Make more sense of, like, what these engineers are talking about. And, um, and I had talked to, um, a friend at Politico who had taken the, um, it was also kind of like transitioning into a tech role, um, and had taken this class and was like, it's great, great kind of foundation, like. Um, and you know, my goal all along, like I, I wasn't taking it thinking like, oh, I'm going to become a software engineer, but I just, I wanted to know enough to not be so clueless all the time. So, um, that was a really great class. Um, and yeah, so that was kind of our, our point of connection.

Alex Gunter: 00:21:25

And what's interesting, you mentioned being, uh, you know, already in an environment where you were working with the developers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Going into GA, I was torn between the product management course and the front end design course. I really like design. I did it in high school and, you know, throughout college, but there was a advice my dad gave that led me to choose product management, right? Do you want to be doing the design work or do you want to be kind of leading? And the experience at NCC Media kind of hiring and. Helping people become account executives, the people management aspect I liked, right? You get a good rapport with someone, you watch them grow, maybe you have a little bit to do with that. And so product management was the role where you're not managing the people, but you have to influence them. And so I think I was leaning 60, 40 towards the product management, but really like, let me just do the design. And so it was one of those where I may have ended up taking the same class, um, if I thought about it too much longer.

Becca Moran: 00:22:29

Yeah, yeah, that's super interesting. And so we got coffee. Um, this people Starbucks a visit. Um, and I guess at that time we were not hiring. Is that right? Right when we met. Yeah, we didn't have an open role. Um, and, you know, I, it wasn't really something that I had done and I may have even been transitioning myself from the role of product manager into the director role. I can't remember the timing on that, but. It kind of like we didn't have any openings and I feel like maybe initially I didn't even really have the authority to hire you. But, um, it just kind of, I don't know that I thought your outreach was compelling and I thought, um, it was a cool connection and, um, just kind of thought, well, why not? It doesn't hurt to have a conversation. And, you know, I don't even really remember what we talked about, but I, I remember walking away feeling like. We had a lot of kind of shared experiences, um, coming from media and a little bit of like the political space. Um, transitioning and into tech through kind of like, uh, like an operational type of role and yeah. And then kind of the, the general assembly connection. And, um, I also just remember being very impressed by how much you knew at that point about Xometry. Like, I was like, wow, like, he's done his homework. Like he understands this business, which, you know, it's. Especially because, like, you didn't have a background in, uh, you know, manufacturing, right? Uh, clearly, you had put effort into seeking to understand what it was that we did and how that worked, and, um, I just remember being super impressed by that. That's

Alex Gunter: 00:24:34

awesome. Uh, yeah, I had been watching it for a while, and I think that Starbucks was a block from each office. So it could not be more convenient. I went right back to, I don't know, people, you know, political ads coming in at the last minute, but getting your take on, on Xometry X pronounced like a Z was helpful because some of my classmates in GA, one of them was at Uber and others were at like the tech companies where, because of the promise of going public at some point or some exit. The compensation wasn't there or the hours were insane and they were looking to get out right of the company. And so I wanted to just check, all right, what is this startup pace? Cause where I am, it's a media company, but the office definitely operates like a startup with a foozle table, the number of the full timers after election season, you know, keep in touch, right? Like the contract and six or nine months later. So I had been used to that pace. But I had never worked at a startup. So getting your take on it. When there wasn't an opening, when it wasn't like an informational, uh, you know, for an existing job posting, I think took the pressure off a little bit, you know, let you know, Hey, I've read this and I understand this about the company, what is it like, and you said, actually, it's. Um, all of the, all of the things I had seen and that you had a positive impression is what you gave me. Not stay away. It wasn't like that at all. Yeah. Yeah. I would have been like, Ooh, another Uber or something. Yeah.

Becca Moran: 00:26:14

Yeah. That's awesome. And then I remember, so, um, it can't have really been that long after that, that we did have a role open up. Um, And maybe that was something I had in the back of my mind initially, even though there wasn't an immediately available opportunity. Maybe there was a sense that something was on the horizon. Um, and. Um, so I'm trying to remember, um, kind of what the interview process was for you. I'll tell you the, the one thing that I do remember is that you had used our site and you had ordered a part, I want to say it was like a back

Alex Gunter: 00:26:54

scratcher, 3d, which is not the right process. You know, you want like a metal rod, not

Becca Moran: 00:27:01

a critical of it now

Alex Gunter: 00:27:03

for manufacturing metal or something. Instead. Yeah. The fun thing is I noticed after we had the coffee, uh, a news article about another funding round. So excuse to message Becca, hey, great, uh, meeting you and congrats on the funding round B or C. I forget who was the lead on that, but I think it was shortly after that, that you reached out and fully employed, right? Not from a place of desperation, like, Oh, I need a job. It's still required a little bit of restraint not to reply right away because of course interested in Xometry and having met already. So wait a bit. Yes, sure. Uh, let's talk, you know, play it cool. That would probably have been the summer of 2017 somewhere in there. Yep. And I remember an email maybe or two with, um, kind of the recruiter at, at Xometry, the HR recruiter, you know, wearing all the hats right back then, smaller HR department. And I think it was to schedule the in person where I came into the office and met you and met Scott, CTO, and at the end, a little bit of time with Randy, the co founder, who I think I would have met one more person, the other product manager, but he was, he was out. So I had a phone call with Hunter, um, a couple of weeks after that. And I think that was the end of my interviews. Um, for that, that opening, do

Becca Moran: 00:28:34

you remember being nervous about that in person interview?

Alex Gunter: 00:28:40

Of course. It's probably not related at all, but I got lucky on the timing of, have you ever met someone that gets a pink eye? Have you ever seen someone get both eyes at the same time? So whatever preparation going into it, I felt good, right? We had already met and some of the questions I prepared. I think like the next. I would have been scary to sit across the table from where I would have declined it. Like, Hey, can we wait two weeks is, um, conjunctivitis happens

Becca Moran: 00:29:15

wearing like ski goggles or something. It's

Alex Gunter: 00:29:18

cool. Dark glasses, like sensitive to light. Um, but it was actually, I think I took the day off. It would have been during the week and my commute didn't change. Right. Probably park in the same garage and walk, walk this way instead of that way. So. I do remember waiting a little while and then when meeting Randy, there was a funny story that after during, I think the first holiday party, uh, he. Remembered me as being a Republican because I had worked at a Republican media agency because he ran for office in Long Island at the Republican. And so what I'd said was, Hey, it is Comcast owned company where I work. We saw your cable media buys for Long Island and, you know, process them, make sure they ran correctly. And so it's funny because at this holiday party, I think that December, um, my wife, you know, introducing her both to Randy and his co founder Lawrence. And. Randy tells Lawrence, Oh, uh, your husband, Alex, like one of the few other Republicans and my wife is like, what, you worked on the Obama campaign. I remember I told you the cable company, both sides of the aisle. And I think that you just heard his campaign and he was running as a Republican. It's funny because the Obama is part of my resume, part of my, my story. So. It wasn't hidden at any point, but it was funny masquerading as a strategy that we, um, and so it was just kind of neat, right? All sure. Yes. I had seen your name before as a politician, right? Yeah. In between being, you know, I think his first and second company, then politics. And then third company. So it

Becca Moran: 00:31:12

was a funny story. Yeah. Um, that's really interesting. Um, so yeah, I think the, there's so many reasons that like the story of you getting hired some Edometry really like stands out to me. I just, I think the, your, just like your, your strategy, right. And playing a little bit of the long game and starting with that. Kind of informational conversation, leveraging your network. Um, and then, like I said, I think to me, you just showed such incredible initiative and doing your homework, learning about the product using it. Like, truly, I was so blown away that you ordered a part. I was like. I could tell you that I wouldn't have figured out how to do this. Uh, when I was interviewing, um, because it's something that, like, I don't know, it doesn't I always thought it didn't make a ton of sense. If you didn't. If you weren't someone working in a engineering type role, where you were designing parts, um, you know, I was like, Oh, I don't, I don't have a CAD file, so I guess I can't use a site. Right. And you had figured that out. And, um, it was just, it was super cool. And, um, I just remember thinking that like, you had so much of the right, just like product instincts, right. Even, even if you hadn't been in. You know, a super formal product role, or, you know, you didn't have a ton of product experience on your resume. I think you did a really great job of translating what really was product experience. And just, like, showing a lot of those, like, kind of innate ways that you thought, like, a product person. Um, so I think to me, that's, that's what makes your story so cool. And I think it really is a great lesson for anyone, uh, whether you want to go into a product role, honestly, or, or any other kind of role. I think that's, that's kind of some of the, the best practices of how to. Yeah. Navigate the process of of interviewing and identifying a role that you're interested in and and going for it. So,

Alex Gunter: 00:33:31

well, it's so cool to hear that the other side of right. My interview or my. Me as a candidate and what things I did, for example, placing an order was the most obvious thing. I was like, what website will let me join a sphere with a rectangle and export it and like, just, you know, it's 30 bucks or something. It wasn't expensive at all to order that 3d printed part, but I made sure to take a couple of screenshots and get some notes on the interface, the product after all. It's the ability to order a part. So, uh, that was fun and I've done it since for anyone else that's looking to get into product, you either don't hear back and so you're unable to learn right during the interview prep, like what you could do better or you do and you get the job and you don't want to spend even a minute. Of your first month or year saying, so what did I do? Well, you're just in, like, let's start getting to work. It wasn't something that I even thought, like, let me spend an hour of, you know, Becca's time, like really finding out what I did well, because. Well, there wasn't an hour, right? It was just

Becca Moran: 00:34:38

so bad. There isn't really like an opportunity for that kind of feedback loop, Billy. So, um, yeah, well, and then, you know, your, I think the story of success does not end there. Obviously you've had, um, a great, you've been at Zomtree for six years now, um, next month. It's huge. Um, and you've moved up during your time there. So I would love if you could just kind of share a little bit of like how your role has evolved since that initial position. And, and, um, also maybe, uh, so your title now is staff product manager. If you could talk a little bit about like what that means, that would also be helpful to hear. Sure.

Alex Gunter: 00:35:25

So in those six years, and not just because it's a startup, All companies have growth and turnover and trying things and placing bets that don't work. And so you're kind of moving resources around. But one thing that I have known about being a product manager is the individual contributor, of course, is different than being a manager of product managers. So relishing, give me a team and I'm, you know, whatever pair UX researchers, You need me to work with, uh, I tried to be flexible, but as a result of the company growing and also, you know, acquisitions by a company in Kentucky. And so that's a team of developers and product managers. Things shift around a little bit by being both flexible and enjoying being a product manager. I think the, it's not just the amount of software, right. From one year P to also job board. Cause I think when I switched from our internal ERP. So the partner facing portal, it was to focus on that. So over time, the experience working with probably teams that were given newer, all right, there's a brand new, you know, the payments, for example, what's now shop finances was this idea that we had to move away from the way we did invoicing with our manufacturers, partners, or suppliers. And so by having experience with both the internal software, the ERP having been, uh, The PM for this kind of partner facing portal and job board naturally, you know, paying partners is almost in between. I was able to go from PM, senior PM, and then continuing, you know, to look for more responsibility, staff PM, like is I think more common on the engineering side is still an individual contributor role. I think the next one up is maybe principal product manager and the number of projects at once. I don't think it's the determinant, right? Individual contributor, but four big products at once. It's more the ability to run, for example, a cross functional cross department. It helped if you had context on, you know, our finances, but we really need, you know, some new systems being built. So I'm able to continue as a PM. It's individual contributor, more senior, which is great, but doing what I love, right? Spending with Most of my time in those conversations, stand ups, discovery, um, and not a lot as I did in my previous life interviewing one on ones and management. So I almost have empathy for the people managers, both my boss and the engineering and the design managers. And I get to say, okay, when you go heads down, we're going to try to distill and prioritize some trade offs and design questions, hop on a call with a, you know, a customer or an end user. On maybe some bigger visibility projects to the company.

Becca Moran: 00:38:37

I love that and I think, you know, sometimes in organizations, um, people can kind of fall into this trap of like, the only way to move up is to manage people. And I think. Uh, the creation of these kinds of, like, staff and principal positions that allow you to move up and take on more responsibility, be in positions where you can be maybe more strategic, whatever, um, but not. Necessarily have that tied to managing people because I think it takes a level of self awareness to for a lot of folks to say, like, you know, that's actually, it's not really what I want to do. Right. Cause I, I've seen people who I can tell, like only want to be managers because they see that as a way to move up. And I'm like, I don't think you actually want to manage people. It doesn't, I don't, I don't think you'd like it. And I don't know if you'd be good at it. So, um, You know, I've definitely seen those people and, and to give folks like that an option to say, great, you don't have to pretend to be someone you're not to, to move up is huge. And I think that's where, like, you know, I think you have a great level of self awareness and, and you kind of understood. This kind of unique intersection that you had within the organization that was really your area of expertise and it sounds like you had some cool, like, ways to really leverage that within the organization. And I think that's another part of it, too, is kind of, like, figuring out within the company, like, what's your brand and how do you promote that brand in a way that. I'm going to leave an impression so that when someone is thinking about really important project, um, that. Your name is somebody that comes to mind, right? It's like, oh, you know, who would be great at this Alex. Right? So I think that that's a lot of the. As I'm hearing, you kind of recite it back and thinking a little bit about it. I feel like those are some of the things that really stand out to me.

Alex Gunter: 00:40:52

Yeah, absolutely. And the flexibility. Means that at different times there has been turnover when, um, people either move to a different department or more often left to start their own company right at a startup. Uh, if you have that, uh, itch, it's good because you now have a network of other people that have tried to start up and you can lean on them. So going from maybe one or two squads to for a short while, three. And it does some interesting things when you're with your time when, okay, I'll join the first two minutes. Here's an update for the standup, but giving those teams more autonomy because you have to write you get conflicting standups. And so only the squad that really has some blockers. Is the one that you lend your, your time to convey, right? That prioritization now being stretched, you know, it's also very good to just have one, you know, very important thing and focus on that quarterly roadmap for that ongoing project. But it has given me the chance to work with many, if not almost all of the combination of designers and, uh, and dev leads, right? Tech managers. And it's funny how sometimes you just don't know. Who are you going to work with again, right? In a six year time span. Oh yeah. A couple of the devs that you had assigned me to, right. That I worked with and then three years later, and it's like, it's only one day passed, right? They've been working on another side of the platform or other side of the company. And so it's fun, right? You kind of have it mixed up like that, where sometimes it just happens because of need and other times there's a. Opportunity. Hey, which projects will get more interesting to you? I'm kind of trying to place PMS with some of these open projects. Yeah,

Becca Moran: 00:42:48

yeah, and I think that's 1 of the big things about working for a startup in general is just like being flexible and being agile. Um, in terms of, yeah, the, the types of things that you work on is huge because the, the needs of the business can just change so quickly. And I think, um, the times that I've hired or worked with people that have come from a Bigger, more established corporate environment. I think that's the 1 thing that really catches people off guard. They're like, I feel like there isn't a plan or we don't know what we're doing or just things change so much. And it's like, yes, start off life, baby. That's how it

Alex Gunter: 00:43:34

goes. Where's the 5 year plan? You're like, we're hoping there's a 5 month. Exactly. With some stability,

Becca Moran: 00:43:41

right? Right. Don't ask me anything beyond like two sprints from now. I don't know. It's just an infinite abyss.

Alex Gunter: 00:43:48

Yes.

Becca Moran: 00:43:50

Um, well, this is awesome. I've enjoyed reflecting on this, uh, this story with you. Is there anything else you want to share? Um, just kind of looking back, um, advice maybe to others who are, um, Either looking to transition into product roles or, uh, maybe preparing for a product interview. Um, anything that you would share that you think has been, um, particularly effective in your experience.

Alex Gunter: 00:44:22

Yes, so, while I've been at Xometry, I've been able to use this story specifically to say, connect, right, you know, reach out, especially if there's not an opening, because then you Glassdoor with someone who works there right now. Yeah. And, and if they're not on. People manager, if they're not the hiring manager, there's less pressure, there's more of a chance that they say, okay, I remember when I was trying to get the product. I think very few people started in product. They started doing something and then got closer to this thing called product management. So I think that's one way. Now, if you know, and you're, you're applying for openings, as you definitely know, the continuing to me. Be in the meetings and, um, build that experience in your current role. You can do it in pretty much any role, right? If you're in customer support, if you're in tech design, like just express an interest in it, uh, the language is less about agile and scrum and more about prioritizing, right? Drawing a line, you can't do everything. So, um, how you make those trade offs and who gets considered. I think a lot of times I see PMs as. The person speaking up on behalf of the end user, because they're not always in the room and there's needs that sales and operations, the engineering that's going to build the software, they're the, they have a lot of stake in it. If you have been the end user or on a call daily, because you were in customer support, you have half of it there, if you have an interest and then you, you know, you want to spend your time motivating teams and reminding them what, what and why that's the rest of it. So I think in almost any role you can keep. Accumulating some of that experience and, you know, be honest on a resume in a conversation, I wasn't the product manager, but product donor, or I, you know, helped with, you know, QA testing or help to the kind of rollout planned or training sessions for the new software got to know it well, because I was, you know, there for the follow up questions. If it's staff that have those questions, or if you're in customer support, And you're, uh, you know, fielding the calls. That's user research, right? You're talking to the user, right? So, to make the connections, if you have an interest in a company or an area, but wherever you are, continue being close to it, right? Don't give up just because it doesn't happen on the first or second try.

Becca Moran: 00:47:05

Yeah. And I think it's, um, a good reminder to like, if you're not sure, right? Like, if you're not in a product role right now, and you would like to move into 1 and you're having a hard time kind of translating your experience into product experience. That's a great opportunity to have that, like, informational interview kind of conversation, right? Talk to somebody in product and say, Hey, when we talk through my resume, let me tell you a little bit about what I do right now. Can you help me translate that into, like, how would you frame that as a, as a product person? And how would you relate that to the typical product roles and responsibilities? Um, you know, I think people are always happy to help and have conversations like that. And that could be a game changer, right? That's not, it's not having different experience. It's just knowing how to frame your experience and in a different way. So absolutely. Well, awesome. Um, so as we wrap up, I just have a few kind of rapid fire questions, um, that I'll, I'll throw at you. So, um, so the first one is. Do you think a close friend or family member could accurately describe what you do?

Alex Gunter: 00:48:29

Yes.

Becca Moran: 00:48:32

We have more confidence than anyone else I've talked to.

Alex Gunter: 00:48:35

They would say Xometry. Yeah. To describe because they couldn't say, like, um, demos. And if someone said,

Becca Moran: 00:48:42

so what does Xometry do? Do you think they would pass that question?

Alex Gunter: 00:48:46

Uh, 3D printing, right? Like, yeah, close. Uber for 3D printing. Yeah, sure. Uber. So the intonation is deliberate. Yeah, there's a bit of, uh, something, something, something, something.

Becca Moran: 00:49:01

That's funny. Um, what is one like product or tech word or phrase kind of lingo buzzer type thing that you wish you never had to hear again? Requirement.

Alex Gunter: 00:49:16

And it's not what I hear every day, it's not that, but the requirement field. So here's the requirement when the reality is like a minute later, you're like, Ooh, we just, you know, we just, we sensed something new and there's information. So there's a bit of that, like I'm gathering requirements. Yeah, sort of. Yeah, but I've never related to as much as like kind of create some products in a time frame, right? This isn't open ended and yes identify as quickly as possible if we're on the right track and we're not you know Going in the wrong direction

Becca Moran: 00:49:54

Yeah, it's like, um, somewhat recently, I feel like someone asked me whether, um, I had a PRD, a product requirements document or something that we had worked on. And I was like, I was like, we don't do that. Like, it just, it sounded like a very Foreign term to me and

Alex Gunter: 00:50:12

I've heard business requirement and I get it. Yeah, it's a brief, it's an idea, you know, like we have

Becca Moran: 00:50:19

some documentation that we were like, we created afterwards,

Tim Winkler: 00:50:23

right? It looks great because it's more of

Alex Gunter: 00:50:25

a historical log of what we ended up doing.

Becca Moran: 00:50:28

Yeah, that's right. Um, how often would you say you actually talk to your customers or users today?

Alex Gunter: 00:50:37

So it's not daily, but recently a drive down to Fredericksburg, Virginia, visited a manufacturer, 3d printing partner of ours, um, earlier today, responding on the community kind of discussion forum. It's always nice when you have a bug fix. And so like to respond with good news, the downside is that we can't get to that request or that bug fix immediately. And so I think having the kind of the marketing layer is helpful and then stepping in to be present. On a zoom call on an in person is energizing. There's nothing like it, right? The direct contact.

Becca Moran: 00:51:15

Yeah. We had some really, um, fun field trips to go see machine shops and, uh, yeah, that was always, you know, it's, it's cool because you're doing that user interview kind of conversation and you're, but you're, you know, seeing how folks work and what the shops look like and what kind of. Computer set up they have and you know, just, there's nothing like seeing somebody kind of in their own environment. You just pick up on so much easier when you're trying to envision like, okay, how is someone going to use this? You can like see that person in your head, right? Um,

Alex Gunter: 00:51:57

people, we did a different one, I think it was a customer visit and the same thing, right. Going up to Baltimore, I think. You know, they had a job shop, but we were there to talk to the mechanical engineer that had used it. Stanley Blackendecker, right? That's right. So it's just cool to get out a little bit of face time and then to see the product loaded on the website there in the corner. And you're like, Ooh, that's from where they attempt to do, right? Our product. Very cool.

Becca Moran: 00:52:25

Um, what book or person would you say has been most influential in your career? It's a book

Alex Gunter: 00:52:32

called creative selection. Ken Koscienda, and he's a, I think a software programmer that at Apple did Safari browser, and then was on the iPhone team. So the, the keyboard and the way that he describes that group of 20 or 30 software developers putting together essentially iOS. Is inspiring and motivating because it's just a couple of snippets, but not a single mention of agile or scrum. I think the product manager was the guy that reported to Steve jobs. And so, you know, small team demos, right? His focus on brainstorming and discussing things in the abstract is difficult and sometimes impossible, but little demos makes things child's play. I think that's what he said, like, oh. Now we know that that makes more sense, but I've tried to bring that culture at least of, you know, Hey, put together a little demos for things or, or use the product and then you will, you will find out when things aren't. And so I've been inspired by the guy that created the software OS for the thing that I use every day, uh, every read at a time or two.

Becca Moran: 00:53:45

I love that. Um, and it reminds me a little bit of like the, uh, there's a book, you may have read it as well on user story mapping that, um, just kind of talks about the importance of like sketching, you know, drawing out an idea. And how it really takes something from that abstract where people can totally be talking about completely different things talking past each other. And then you, you get someone to kind of like, sketch out what they're thinking and that creates a shared understanding, um, which I think is. Something that, especially now, a lot of us working in a very virtual world can be harder to just like get a whiteboard and kind of draw a picture. So we know we're talking about the same kind of thing here, but it can be super powerful.

Alex Gunter: 00:54:35

And one other thing that I remember from that book is a picture of the index card with the first user story. I think somewhere in there, it was like, and at this conference, someone wrote as a. Yeah. And did the entire structure. It is a useful structure of all of the frameworks and things. Just don't forget the why and the who. Yeah.

Becca Moran: 00:54:55

Yeah. That's right. All right. Last question for you. When you were a kid, what was your dream job?

Alex Gunter: 00:55:03

Lead guitar in a band. Do you know how to play guitar? I do know how to play guitar. Not well, but middle school electric guitar and, you know, slash, right? So which style of, of lead? Guitar playing. So one day I'll probably buy an electric guitar again, but I remember that it was an affinity and attraction for music, but not just anything. I wasn't, I want to be the drummer, lead guitar, no talking, you know, not out in front and in slash. Basically I want it to be slash. Yeah.

Becca Moran: 00:55:39

You had a really great Halloween costume, didn't you? That's why the,

Alex Gunter: 00:55:45

jumped out and the wig,

Becca Moran: 00:55:47

there was something, yes, that is, that is, that Um, I hope we can share a picture of that with this episode

Alex Gunter: 00:55:53

because it's

Becca Moran: 00:55:55

phenomenal. Um, well, amazing. This has been such a fun conversation. So great to, uh, relive our Xometry days, uh, in this episode together. So thank you so much, uh, for joining and, um, We're sharing.

Alex Gunter: 00:56:14

Thank you so much, Becca.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:35

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