How I Got Hired in Product with Bryan Postelnek

Tim Winkler: 00:00:00

Hey, listeners, Tim Winkler here, your host of The Pair Program. We've got exciting news introducing our latest partner series beyond the program. In these special episodes, we're passing the mic to some of our savvy former guests who are returning as guest hosts, get ready for unfiltered conversations, exclusive insights, and unexpected twist as our alumni pair up with their chosen guest. Each guest host is a trailblazing expert in a unique technical field. Think data, product management, and engineering, all with a keen focus on startups and career growth. Look out for these bonus episodes dropping every other week, bridging the gaps between our traditional pair program episodes. So buckle up and get ready to venture beyond the program. Enjoy.

Becca Moran: 00:00:53

I'm Becca, and this is How I Got Hired. How I Got Hired is a series of interviews where product managers share how they landed great product roles. From PMs who made a career pivot into tech, to those with more formal training, How I Got Hired captures the various ways to open doors into the world of product. We'll be talking about each guest's recipe for success, what motivated them to get into product, How they prepared for the interview and what they did to set themselves apart. For today, my conversation with Brian, I have the pleasure of being able to talk about the other side of the table, uh, as the person that hired him. Um, just for a little bit of background on me, uh, your host, my name is Becca Moran. Um, I am currently the VP of product and engagement at Procurated, which is a rating and review site for the public sector. We get into that a little bit more, uh, in a minute, but, um, my guest today. Is Brian who, uh, I had the pleasure of working with over the last few years at Procurated. And, uh, we hired Brian from Angie, aka Angie's List. Um, and that's the story we'll be talking about today. So, um, before we get into things just to, uh, kick it off and break the ice a little bit. I thought it would be fun for us to play a little bit of, uh, 2 truths and a lie. So, Brian, did you prepare your truths and lines?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:02:31

I did. Uh, I did. And thank you for having me here. Becca. Um, long time listener. Uh, first, first, first time, uh, joining first time calling in, um, no, yes, I did prepare and I had to think about. Yeah, I have a theme, uh, to my, my two truths and a lie, you know, I put some effort into this one. Okay.

Becca Moran: 00:02:52

Um, do you want to go first? You want me to go first?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:02:55

Sure. Sure. I'll go first. Um, so, uh, two truths and a lie. Uh, so one of these, one of these is a lie, but the theme, uh, I, I figured, you know, uh, true crime podcasts are all the rage these days. And so I figured I would talk about, list out your crimes, confess to crimes, uh, on the air today. Yeah, right. I confess to, uh, you know, things that are not, um, like, uh, like illegal, I guess, like things that you would, you would get in trouble for doing. Okay. Um, when I was in high school in particular, uh, so they're all, they're all, uh, you know, crime adjacent, if not actual crimes. Um, uh, but when I was in high school, so surely the statute of limitations, no one's going to come after me for these. Um, so, uh, number one, uh, I broke into my crush's locker to fill it with candy for Valentine's day. Number two, uh, I snuck myself and my friends into a Batman movie in IMAX in New York city. And number three, I went out to the guidance counselor's computer and changed someone else's schedule.

Becca Moran: 00:04:10

Ooh. I feel like all of those sound like the plot of, like, a classic teen movie or, like, scenes in a classic teen movie.

Bryan Postelnek: 00:04:20

I mean, I was a teen, so, you know, I was just limping out what I saw on television and in the movies.

Becca Moran: 00:04:26

I'm gonna guess that filling your crush's locker with candy is a lie.

Bryan Postelnek: 00:04:33

Uh, you're correct. I have not broken into anyone's locker. I didn't, I didn't, uh, cross that, that line, which I think is actually, um, the most illegal one of them. I, if I were to, to put my finger on it. Um, I did sneak my Whose, whose

Becca Moran: 00:04:51

schedule did you change and why?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:04:53

Um, so, uh, my wife's. Uh, there's a, there's a whole, even in my wedding vows, uh, I talk about this. I say, I say like I committed a minor cybercrime by, by, by changing her schedule. Your early days of hacking. Yeah. Uh, it's, uh, yeah, what, what happened was, uh, the guidance counselor had left the room as she tells the story was like, I just went on the computer. I, you know, he might've given me permission. I might've just gone on there. Who's to really tell at this point? Because. He doesn't work at the school anymore. Uh, so, uh, yeah, I changed her schedule. Um, cause she needed to, she wanted to take drama again and, uh, she needed to also like take some other classes. And so like I rearranged her schedule and, uh, funny enough, my wife is a, uh, a professor of social psychology. Uh, I put her in AP psychology. Which, uh, so you changed the course of her life? I did. I think she didn't have any business being in that class. Like, yeah. Uh, like, you know, she didn't take like a, a prereq or something that maybe some people took. I was just like, yeah, put you in here. I put her in AP Biology. Um, and we actually, you know, we, we both ended up taking that drama class together. Um, she was in the room. Mm-hmm. So also, I should clarify that she was in the room when I changed the schedule. It wasn't just like, I like this girl. Change your schedule. Yeah, no, like it. It was it was all there. That's

Becca Moran: 00:06:20

amazing. Um, I'm also impressed that, like, in my mind, this, the software that you would use to schedule high school classes, like, doesn't naturally sound very user friendly. So I'm kind of like, you could just jump on there and be like,

Bryan Postelnek: 00:06:36

like, yeah, that's a good point. You know, Katie and I don't talk much about like, what did that interface look like that just made this so easy for me to just go and do, but I guess it must've just been like, you know, drop down, pick a class, make sure there's room.

Becca Moran: 00:06:50

Kudos to the, uh, the product person that built whatever software that is. That's right.

Bryan Postelnek: 00:06:55

Yeah. Yeah. So that's, uh, that's, that's me.

Becca Moran: 00:06:59

Amazing. All right. I also had a theme, not a crime theme, but maybe I'll keep that in mind for future episodes. Um, okay. So mine is all kind of medical issue related without getting

Bryan Postelnek: 00:07:19

too personal. I mean, that's also, that's also a popular theme, like, you know, uh, medical mysteries.

Becca Moran: 00:07:25

My strange ailment. Yeah. Um, these are not mysterious though. I will say. Um, okay. So number one, uh, in high school I was sleepwalking and fell from a loft and broke my collarbone. Number two, I was born tongue tied or number three, I recently ended up in the telomere failure. Okay. The top of a cheerleading pyramid,

Bryan Postelnek: 00:08:01

I'm not, you didn't ask me any clarifying questions, but like, I'm like, how recent was this? Uh, that, that you tried that. Um, I'm going to say that, uh, you were not born with a tongue tie. That would be wrong. Was it? Do I want to be wrong twice? Um, uh, I'm gonna guess, uh, The cheerleading one. Now you fell.

Becca Moran: 00:08:33

Yes. So, uh, I, the, uh, the cheerleading one was recently it was Easter of this year. Um, my, uh, cousins are to blame for their lack of strength and ability. My lack of balance and grace and sobriety was a factor. But, um, no, that's a real story. Uh, I have the ER bill to prove it. Um, I was also born tongue tied and I, uh, had, I could talk totally fine, but like weirdly in middle school, I decided that I absolutely must have the surgery to like, correct

Bryan Postelnek: 00:09:14

it. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, you know, I thought maybe I would hear it or something when you talked that, like some evidence. Well, and

Becca Moran: 00:09:21

that was the thing, like, as a kid, my parents were like, well, we'll see if she can talk right or not. And then I was fine. And then I was like, no, I can't be different. I need

Bryan Postelnek: 00:09:32

to, I need to correct

Becca Moran: 00:09:33

this. Yeah. Anyway. Um, but no, I did not sleepwalk and fall and break my collarbone. I have actually. Even despite the cheerleading incident, never broken a bone. Um, but that is a real story. My friend in high school did do

Bryan Postelnek: 00:09:51

that. So, wow. You know, I think, I think you really played on what I knew about you. Uh, and, uh, but I didn't know, cause I didn't know that you never broke a bone. Um, I did know, uh, like sleeping was, was a medical concern for you. So that's good. Well done. Well done. Um, well.

Becca Moran: 00:10:17

I, um, I would have tried to think of a good segue into our

Bryan Postelnek: 00:10:23

story, but who really the audience decides if it's a good segue. It's not up to us. So

Becca Moran: 00:10:28

thank you. And, and you're the, the segue King. So I wouldn't want to insult you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, we can, uh, we can get into a little bit of the story of, uh, how we met and your unique journey into, you know, Um, the product role at Recurated and, and all that. So I guess maybe as a good place to start for our listeners, um. Would be if you could talk a little bit about kind of rewinding two and a half, almost three years ago, kind of where were you, what was going on, uh, in your life at the time in terms of your, you can go broad, but maybe specifically in terms of your, your role at, at Angie and. Um, kind of what pain is the scene leading up to, uh, your interview at

Bryan Postelnek: 00:11:30

procurated. Yeah, so, uh, leading up to interviewing at procurated. Um, so for context, I think it was either the very end of October or it was the very beginning of November 2020 when, um, when I got the, the LinkedIn message from Anessa, um, the recruiter y'all were working with. So shout out to Anessa. Um, just call them out as I see them. Uh, but at the time I was working at Angie's list, um, I was the, I was a product manager. I was responsible for, um, the service provider mobile app. Um, and there we were, uh, I was starting to get a little bit of traction for some stuff we wanted to do there. I'd like just put together a presentation around, um, uh, some advancements I wanted to make in it and starting to get some, some buy in for that. And also at the same time, we had just started pivoting internally for. Um, the rebranding, um, from Angie's list to Angie, um,

Becca Moran: 00:12:32

had you, what was the status of the home advisor merge acquisition or, oh,

Bryan Postelnek: 00:12:38

yeah, the home advisor merger started like a month after I joined in 2017. Uh, so. Uh, so that was like May, June of 2017 when the merger happened. Um, by now we were well merged. Um, you know, still some things here and there that, that didn't quite get coupled yet and still some things that were completely distinct and owned by their team versus ours. Um, but this was we had known for a little bit that, uh, that the rebranding was going to happen and we're starting to move everything in the direction of, you know, we had like a hard deadline for when the, the rebrand was going to happen. So we're starting to organize everyone that direction. I was working on, um, some payments feature, I think some payments and billing and invoicing as well within the pro mobile app. Uh, so I was working on all those things. Um, and I wasn't really looking, honestly, um, you know, I, uh, I thought that I was going to stay on for a little bit, see how the rebrand goes. Um, but then I got this, uh, this message from Vanessa and, you know, uh, I guess the other things to paint the picture at the time is we're in the middle of a pandemic and I was living in Ohio. Um, so just imagine me in a, in a 2 bedroom apartment in Dublin, Ohio, uh, sit on my computer and then LinkedIn message comes along. Um, and I was really excited because, uh, yeah. Yeah, I love it when people reach out to me and are interested in me. So there's this vanity. Yeah, I do. Like when I'm not even doing anything, they just like say, Hey, uh, would you like this job? Uh, but, uh, that, and, and, you know, I remember distinctly, you know, Anessa in the message described, you know, some of the, some of the impact and the mission of procuring. And I was like, Oh, this sounds interesting. You know, I don't really know what I'm getting myself into, but I'll take a crack at it and, and see, um, see where it goes. Yeah, well,

Becca Moran: 00:14:38

I'll give a little bit of the perspective kind of from the other side of things, um, to share with folks kind of where we were at that point. So, um, when I joined procurated, um, employee number 1, um, I was doing a little bit of everything as, um, tends to happen at that stage. And, um, For a while was kind of the, the person doing the, all of the day to day product work and. Um, at this point, we had kind of grown to a size where just was not feasible for me to be doing all of that in addition to other things. And, um, our engineering team had grown. I think we were, I guess we hired a few engineers, like, right, started like the same time as you. Um, so we had a team of five folks. Yeah, it was five when I joined. So, yeah. You know, I, I can't keep up. I couldn't keep up with, uh, with 5 engineers. So, um, you know, we were really thinking about in an ideal world, finding somebody that had worked for a ratings and review platform, even though, you know, we're focused on the public sector, very different than, um, you know, The, the space that Angie's list is, is focused on, but tons and tons of parallels and, um, we can talk about this more in a bit, but I think that's certainly 1 of the reasons that you were able to hit the ground running. Um, so, yeah, I think when Vanessa found you, it was like, this is a great profile of of someone with a really relevant experience. So. I also want to just rewind maybe 1 step further. Um, uh, I think the where you were in terms of Angie's list is relevant. Um, but I also think you have kind of a cool path in terms of, like, what you studied and, um, some of your, like, initial startup work that you did. So, um, do you want to talk about that for a

Bryan Postelnek: 00:16:53

minute to. Yeah, um, yeah, so, like, uh, my background background, if you rewind 10 plus years ago, uh, is, uh, you know, I had an engineering undergraduate degree with a minor in theater. It still says on my resume, a minor in theater because I, it was almost a double major. Uh, uh, but. We've heard it

Becca Moran: 00:17:16

started in high school

Bryan Postelnek: 00:17:17

drama class. Yeah, right? Yeah. It's high school drama class and I did some more theater in college. Um, that's that's a whole another story about different career paths. I think I could have gone down. Um, could have been an actor. I think honestly, I thought I was going to be like a playwright. Um, I've really enjoyed the playwriting professor. I had in college, uh, it was, it was a lot of fun. Uh, so, uh, so I did that and then I, I, uh, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And I found, uh, Lehigh was doing this program. Uh, the first class of it, they were doing something called the masters of engineering and technical entrepreneurship applied, got in. Um, and the, the, so I was the first class of this and, uh, it was pretty much combining, uh, how to start a startup. You know, going through, you know, understanding business financials, understanding like what it means to raise money, like pitching our ideas, actually working on ideas that we had. And then, um, you know, the product development, um, of it all too. So under like prototyping and getting feedback and, um, you know, doing user interviews, uh, you know, all the way up to as far as you could bring it in one year, um, you know, while doing coursework that aligns with this, but also learning things at the same time. So really, you know, you could think of as like, An accelerator incubator for this type of thing, but you also get a professional degree out of it. Um, and, you know, I worked on my own idea and then I was like, oh, that's never going to work or slash. I don't want to do it. Um, it was a live stream theater, and of course, I had a funny name for it called the not theater theater company. Because I'm like, it's not the same thing anyway, and then I worked on a friend's project as well. Uh, and so that's that's how I got, you know, a lot of like, uh, product development. Excitement and learning about, you know, the world, I think, set me up for some success later on having a good foundation. Uh, and, uh, yeah, from there, I got an, uh, uh, I worked at a series B startup in New York, um, and they're making marketing technology products and, uh, and I learned a lot on the ground there and, uh, you know, fell on my face a lot there. Um, you know, learning about, you know, You know, APIs and, you know, campaign builders working with developers, uh, working with designers because I had, like, you didn't do any of that in the master's program, but you didn't worry about software development. It was mainly a hardware focused school. Uh, so, you know, just a lot of learning on that job and learn, learning it very difficultly. Uh, if that's a word, uh, uh, because I also, my, my then girlfriend, now wife moved to Indiana for her, for her schooling. And so I was actually, um, commuting back and forth, uh, staying a few weeks in New Jersey at a time. To go work in New York and then working remote from Indiana. Otherwise, that's that's a long answer. Yeah, that's a long answer about, like, how I got started. Kind of, um, I got started with an internship. Actually,

Becca Moran: 00:20:18

it's super interesting. Kind of what you said about, uh, kind of learn by fire and like, in comparison to what you learned in the course. Right? Like, I think, A course can be a really incredible way to learn all of the, like, best practices or whatever. Like, here's what you should do. I think when you actually are in a role, a lot of that stuff kind of goes out the window and you're like, uh, okay, well, like what do I, I'm encountering countless scenarios that mm-hmm. you know, as a class would never teach me. Um, and I do think that there's a lot of it that's just kind of, Bumbling through it at 1st. Um, I know my experience with that. So I started before I moved into product. I was a technical project manager at Politico and. Um, before that I was in sales and when I moved over from sales to tech, like, I just remember sitting in so many meetings with our engineers just being like, I have no idea what anyone is talking about. Like I couldn't even grasp like anything, I was just like, this is gibberish to me. And, um, it definitely took a while to spend a lot of Googling and a lot of just asking questions to, uh, be able to start piecing it together. But, um, yeah, that's, you know, everybody has to start somewhere and it can be a very humbling experience when you realize that. A lot of it is just learning by doing and making a lot of mistakes and oh, yeah, you know, I'm just saying, okay, I don't not sure what else to do, but I won't do that again.

Bryan Postelnek: 00:22:00

Right? And like, I feel like, you know, yeah, I have that background in the degree and then, you know, you read like Kagan's books. Um, to try to, like, understand, like, here's how it should work. And it's like, well, okay. So, again, all these things are, like, best practices, you know, the, the, the reality of the world is tugging you towards, uh, chaos or, you know, the, the least amount of friction to get something done, um, or power, you know, uh, power dynamics with an organization, uh, you know, but it's good to know those things. Like, it's good to know, like, here, here's a version of the world that's Idealistic, uh, maybe possible under the right circumstances. Um, and if you agree with it, just start, you know, tugging yourself and the processes towards that, um, as, as much as you can. Um, and then adjusting, of course, for your, for your various cultures. Um, but it's good to know, because then you can once, you know, like, kind of like best practices, you can then be creative on top of it about what works for you.

Becca Moran: 00:23:04

I'll say that's definitely something that appealed to me about joining a very early stage startup. Like I said, employee number 1, I was like, Ooh. This is cool. Like, I, I can create this, um, product culture. Um, and, um, so that was very interesting to me where you're, you're not kind of coming into, uh, something that's already established and. And lamenting the, you know, like, oh, you know, it should be done this way, not that way. Right. And, and of course, like, you realize that even with a clean slate, it's very hard to kind of model things after the, the best practice. For lots of different reasons, but, um, yeah, that was definitely something that appealed to me. Anyway, let's see back to our story, so we've got some good context on, uh. Where you were, what was going on in your head? Um. Let's talk a little bit about, um, you know, what you remember about kind of the, the interview process and preparing for it. Um, if you can share just some thoughts on, like, what are some of the things that you remember doing in preparation for the interviews that we did with you? What are some things that kind of stand out to you as as maybe things that helped you in that process?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:24:30

Yeah, uh, in terms of like preparation, um, I'll admit I probably didn't do very much, uh, because, um, I'm, I'm, I'm like that, I guess we're like, you know, like for the first one, I'm just like, I'm just going to hear what we're going to talk about, feel it out, see what's going on. Um, I don't even remember who the 1st person I talked to was. I might have done a phone screening with Vanessa. Um, and then I talked to you probably, because that would seem like a logical order of events, um, you know, uh, you know, and got progressively more excited. I think I talked to you. Um, I, I distinctly remember, uh, like. I feel like I distinctly remember as I went on the interview process, I dressed nicer and nicer. I was just like, wearing like, you know, like a sweatshirt for like, the 1st 1 and then the next 1 is like a, like a

Becca Moran: 00:25:19

shirt, right? Like, sometimes. The startup vibe is super cat sometimes. It's

Bryan Postelnek: 00:25:25

not. I think I just wanted the job more and more as I like started talking to y'all. I was like, I really like these folks like

Becca Moran: 00:25:32

the final interview with like a tuxedo on. That's right. I really, really

Bryan Postelnek: 00:25:35

want this. Please, uh, but yeah, no, I remember, uh, you know, I had a great conversation with you. I think then I talked to, um, George and Jacqueline, right? Um, as my, my next round

Becca Moran: 00:25:49

are us designer and 1 of our

Bryan Postelnek: 00:25:51

engineers. Yes. Uh, and then, uh, I did the final round. Um, yeah, cause that was the first time I met, I met Jess. Um, and so I did the final round with you, David was there, uh, Jess was there. And then I, in my notes, it says Jenna's here too. Um, that's possible. It's possible. About it. And you know, the, what it says next to Jess's name is operations, question mark, question mark. Like, I'm like, I don't, I in the audience. Yeah. Um, but, uh, but for that, you know, so like, I didn't, I didn't prepare much for the first few interviews. I talked about my story, um, for the final round, I had a presentation to do. Um, and that was a presentation around, I want to say like virality and like how to make the product more viral and, you know, to pre that one I had to prepare for, of course, but. That's why

Becca Moran: 00:26:48

we were really focused on the love as a product, uh, kind of like theme, uh, which was. This idea that, um, yeah, I guess it was like thinking about really how do we kind of make our product go viral? How do we make people love it so much that they can't help, but tell other people or whatever, um, I'm kind of laughing as I say this. Um, I'm full disclosure. I'm not sure we figured that out, but that's, and that's probably in some shape or form, the goal of. Uh, any product team, but, um, you know, I, it, but I guess maybe to give us a little bit more credit, like it is a very, um, important potential strategy for as like a growth mechanism, especially in like marketplace businesses. Um, so, you know, it was relevant is relevant, but, um, how did you like think about, you know, I feel like those challenges, even You know, as someone who creates them, I'm always like, is this fair? Like, it's really hard as the hiring manager to like remove yourself from the business and think about like, what's a fair prompt to ask someone that reasonably like, shouldn't have much depth of understanding of like what our business is and what our product does. So like, um, either in relation to the specific prompt that you worked on for us, or just how you think about this in general, like. How do you overcome that?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:28:25

Yeah, I think that, uh, it's tough. I think that I don't recall the prompt being particularly like difficult to grasp what was going on at Brooke. You're like, or at least what you wanted from me, right? Like, there's assumptions I'm going to make. I have this whole like brain dump document that I'm looking at that I dug up because I'm like, I wonder what I used to think or how I did prepare for this. And I did bring up, I built a presentation on top of it. Um, but I think that, uh, I think, yeah, it's a balance because you don't want to like put, you know, a lot of You want it to be easy enough for the person who's interviewing in order to grasp whatever's going on. Um, I also struggle a little bit with Um, you know, there's, there's talk, there's talk about, you know, uh, like the prompts being a form of like free consulting, um, on behalf of the interviewees. Yeah. Uh, and so I think, you know, if I were to take another crack at like, you know, I did one for the designer we hired and was similar, like, you know, thinking about, um, you know, what is going to be meaningful that has good context for our business so they can get excited about what we're working on. Like there's that like balance. Um, because you want them to, like, kind of start to understand here's the business. Um, you know, when we say Yelp for government, was that really mean, uh, or some of the underlying things you're gonna have to think about, but you also don't want to, you know, them to feel like, oh, I'm just giving them my ideas for free. Yeah, they may or may not hire me. So I think it's just about like being really thoughtful about it. And I think there's ways that you can look at, um, other, other companies and just leverage their company as like what you would do here. Like if it were, you know, you know, it could have been a prompter on like Yelp and how to make Yelp's viral coefficient, um, higher or something. Um, so that you can, an analogous business, but a totally different set of circumstances. I like that kind of

Becca Moran: 00:30:27

translating it to something you do know, um, which I think is a really great way to then be able to demonstrate, like, how you think about something. Right? Because I think that's the thing. And a lot of these situations and interviews, um. People say that about, like, kind of a case study type question, you know, how many windows are there and, uh, uh, buildings in Manhattan or whatever, right? Like, it's not really about getting the right answer. It's just showing, like, okay, are, are you thoughtful and logical in the way that you work through the question? And how does that provide some insight into to how you think? So I think to your point, if you can find something. Analogous to the the business and then relate to it that way. That's a really good strategy. That's awesome. Um, looking back, is there anything you wish you knew about the company or the role that, um. I don't know, like, would have helped you in the process or like that you just. I feel like maybe you should have known going in that you didn't know, like it's yeah. Reflecting back, any thoughts

Bryan Postelnek: 00:31:44

on that? Uh, I will say, um, don't be like me and not research the company before you go interview for like, no, we still got the job. So I still got the job. Yeah. There's like, I loved working at procreated. So like, you know, don't, don't, uh, uh, there's like the, the pro con here. Like, I'm not saying like research it because. I, you know, I got into something terrible and you will too, yeah, uh, I lucked out like all things, all things here. I was very fortunate and lucky to, to work with you all and, and have a lot of fun doing it and, uh, and build some cool stuff. Uh, but I would say, do I'm in the interviewing process now, and I'm, you know, doing my research on these companies as I, you know, start to hear back from them and, um, start to get farther in, um, it takes time, of course. Which is the takes time and effort. Um, and you kind of just want to go. Go through the interviewing process. What are

Becca Moran: 00:32:39

some tips on, like, that research? Like, I remember, I remember, like, when I first graduated from college and was interviewing and trying to get a job, I, you know, at that age, you just, like, don't know anything. I remember, like, going through company websites and, like, trying to memorize, like, I don't know who was on their board of directors and like, just like all of this stuff. Cause I'm like, I don't know what they're going to ask me. I don't know what they care about. Um, like what are some things that you really try to focus in on when you're researching a company actually are helpful and important in the interview process?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:33:18

Yeah. I think what's, what's, uh, when I'm researching the company, not talking to them, cause there's so many things you pick up on when you talk to them. Um, you know, I, I'm looking at Glassdoor comparably. Blind team, blind. com, um, seeing what, what's written on the internet about them, looking at their lot places have great careers pages now, um, that tell you about their culture. Um, and then, uh, to like understand what they're building, like going on the website, if, if there's a free version of their tool to download or get into, that's always good. Um, what I, what I found, um, when, when there's nothing, when it's like, I don't really understand what this is, but I'm excited about their mission and what it sounds like. Um, honestly, podcasts and YouTube videos these days, um, I sound like such an old man. I'm like, look at these fancy ways of finding out information, the, the YouTube and the podcast. Have you heard of YouTube?

Becca Moran: 00:34:11

This new site?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:34:13

SoundCloud hosts audiophiles. Uh, yeah. So you, so I was doing research on one, on a, a series A startup and I'm like, Oh, yeah, You know, I don't, I don't know, um, I kind of get what's going on here, like, but, but I really like to prep for the recruiter interview. And so I listened to like an hour long podcast with the founders, um, that they were on, uh, they were guest guest, um, participants on podcast talking about their company and what they did. And I was like, okay, like I get it now. I understand how you make money. I understand what you're doing. Um, it really helps to, uh, put it in context. So anything where you can find like high level employees. Um, from those companies on some type of media, I think really helps you hear it out loud and how they describe it in order to contextualize

Becca Moran: 00:35:02

it. I think that's a great point. I have honestly been shocked, not just for product rule. I mean, I think to me, it's like table stakes for a product rule, like use the product, right? Um, you know, yeah. Play around with it as much as you can. Um, going into the interview, but really for any role, like, so we're curated is you have to, um, log in to be able to access the vast majority of the functionality. And, um, I'm always surprised when people we interviewed don't ask us for access. Um, because like, how do you, I'm not sure you, how you really. Like, I don't think we have a ton of great information out there about, like, what our platform actually is. Uh, we're getting better. Um, but, like, I, I think it would be very hard to grasp if you didn't get a login and actually poke around and

Bryan Postelnek: 00:35:59

use it. I mean, uh, I didn't have a log, like, like part of, you know, you asked me like, what did I know or like about the company? I didn't, I remember trying to explain to my, I was at Angie's list, telling my manager where I was going. I'm like, it's, it's like this thing for this thing. I'm like, I like kind of understand what I'm going to go work on again. Super fortunate what I lucked into, but I just remember being like. Very excited about it felt very good about it was was was doing it on almost like faith alone. Um, uh, but yeah, Becca, I didn't know that much about what I was getting into. Like, like, you've heard it now. I don't know that I've told you that before that I started and I was like, what is this thing? Um, you know, it's a Yelp for government. If I even remembered, that's what we talked about. But yes, I agree. Like, I think that now you could like with the public profiles and everything, like you'd have a much better sense of more of what's going on. There's enough out there. You know, you have the podcast series too. I don't know that, you know, on, uh, decisions that matter. There's too much talk about exactly what procurator does or what it is, but yeah, there's art, there's like, you know, fundraising articles and stuff. There's enough that you can, like, I think today you'd be able to piece enough together from a few, especially if you look up David. Like, David's out there talking about procurator all the time, right?

Becca Moran: 00:37:22

Yeah. And you can kind of piece together. I think what's. Important to the business by what they're posting about on media or or whatever. So I think that's a good point. Um, uh, yes, I guess, um, the kind of closing out the, the story, um, of how you got hired at procurated and, uh, it would maybe be just to talk a little bit about after you got hired, kind of what your, your journey was and, um. Uh, yeah, if you could share a little bit about, um, like, what your responsibilities were and maybe how some of that changed over time during the

Bryan Postelnek: 00:38:09

role. Yeah. So after I got hired, uh, uh, y'all had a great onboarding process. Like there was a whole Asana project I was given to go, uh, read and watch videos for stuff and try to understand the world of procurement. Um, like I watched some, I was like, ah, I kind of get it. Uh, like let's keep moving forward. Like I'm going to learn best by just doing. Um, and so, you know, I remember, you know, I had that onboarding project and a few of the things that I was like, give me things to do, like, like, let's go, let's start hitting the ground running. Yeah, um, and I did, I was like, I was like, you know, no time to waste. Like, let's let me get into the processes. Let me start taking on things. Um, you know, I just did more and more as, as time went on, um, you know, my responsibilities when I started were, you know, I was a senior product manager and mostly responsible for the day to day stuff, you know, probably waited on a few strategic things here and there. But, um, as time went on, you know, as, as, uh, after my parental leave, um, in particular, because, you know, I just disappeared for 3 months, uh, like, yeah, I go, uh, after that, you know, just started increasing, um, my role, like I worked on some, some big strategic ticket items, as you might remember, um, do a lot of user interviews for strategic initiative around our series around. Um, worked on, um, you know, some big projects. I managed a few folks while I was there. Um, and then, yeah, it was just increasing responsibility and increasing, um, scope and purview. I think when I started, you know, I worked on some stuff for the reviews and converting, you know, we were using mandrel to send them. We moved everything to HubSpot. We optimized the review form since we had like a few different versions of it. Um, and then, you know, towards as I got later on, you know, just. Yeah. Working on, you know, both sides of the marketplace and thinking about, you know, what's going to move the needle for sales, what's going to move the needle for the government side. Um, you know, what internal tools do we need? Kind of like taking on the whole picture, um, as, as group product manager. Yeah,

Becca Moran: 00:40:24

it's awesome. What advice do you have for people in product roles that are looking to advance in the same way? Like, are there any things that you feel like Experiences that you've had or skills that you've built that have been particularly helpful in your ability

Bryan Postelnek: 00:40:46

to advance. Yeah, I think that's for advancing. Uh, I think in general, like, an attitude towards. Like, like, being like, let me help you with that thing, like, really being, um. Someone who, you know, you see someone who needs help or someone who's working on something and just putting yourself out there to say. You know, hey, can I help with that? You know, can I plug in? And that really helps you grow and learn about more parts of the business or other areas of the product, um, takes things off of people's plates. And, you know, that builds goodwill with folks. Um, so it's a little bit relation, relationship building as well. And that helps your career, right? Like, you know, you've learned more, you've helped out with things you've, you've, um, you've got a good reputation within the company for being someone who, um, Is helpful and knows their product stuff and, you know, a lot more and are willing and are good at it. Right? Like, you actually follow through and everything you volunteer for. Right? Um, so I, I do think that that that go getter attitude can really help you in your career and not just being like, it's not my problem. We're just staying in the lane and not willing to contribute or help with anyone else's stuff. Yeah. Um, I think as far as skills, uh. Yeah. You know, it really depends on the type of company you're going to work for. Um, you know, I'm, I'm a pretty good generalist. Um, so I've picked up, you know, lots of things over time, whether it be user interviewing or data analysis or, you know, how to just keep the pipeline good for for engineering. Um, I feel like I learned a lot by doing and so just go by doing repping the muscles, figuring out where you could improve getting feedback from folks. About where you can improve, um, and then, you know, you learn about where your weaker spots are. And do you want to invest more in there and become stronger at those things? Um, we're not and then, you know, tailor your career accordingly to go work for companies that value more, you know, people who can pull all their own sequel and don't really need a data and data analyst. Like, there's companies that are looking for PMs like that. Um, or, you know, I worked at appropriate. We didn't have any UX researchers. So it was on you to go do it. And I love doing that. And so I got to build more skills doing that. I brought in skills ahead. Um, so you kind of follow, you know, listen to yourself, listen to what's going on around you and what's going on in the market. Um, and kind of like follow follow the rabbit. Yeah, I

Becca Moran: 00:43:21

agree. And I think that, you know, product roles are such the thezewar. com Interdisciplinary roles that, you know, like you said, they're this idea of staying in your swim lane. Like, I'm not sure product has a swim lane. Like, you kind of got the whole pool, you know, so, um, you know, I think anywhere where you see. a way that you can be helping the business achieve its goals. Like to me, I'm always like, yeah, that's in scope for my role. I think that's a, a mentality, um, that I know has benefit me throughout my career. And I think product roles lend themselves really well to that. Um, because you do naturally just have. Exposure to lots of different parts of the business and lots of different functions and, um, and then to your point, because product rules can be so different organization to organization. You know, if you dabble a little bit and explore and realize you like one element of what you've been doing more than other things, then yeah, there's a role out there where that, that thing that you like is a big part of the role. I feel very fortunate to have kind of landed in a career in product because I do think it just gives you so much optionality. Um, it's fun for people who are, you know, curious and like to keep learning and explore new things. Um, it's a really fun and interesting career path for sure. Um, well, I think we're kind of transitioning to wrapping up our time here. Is there any other, um, topic that we didn't touch on, um, or anything you want to double back to, um, to elaborate on a little bit more before we move into our. We'll wrap up rapid fire questions.

Bryan Postelnek: 00:45:21

Um, you know, I will. Uh, I will say, I think that, um, I don't think it was emphasized as much. In talking about getting hired, is it really didn't, um, no, that didn't matter for procurator, but I didn't need to leverage it for procurator, uh, for my 1st job for Angie's list for this next job. I really believe in the power of asking for help. And for leveraging your network, um, I think it's, it's a huge part of, of getting hired, especially in this market. Um, uh, it's very helpful in your career just to ask for help. And, and, you know, it, it doesn't make you look weak to ask for help. Um, ask for help in the right way, you know, shows that you're willing to learn and that, um, you're willing to be vulnerable and you're looking to get better. Um, so I would emphasize, absolutely The importance of doing all that. Um, and. In context of getting hired, uh, for my first job, uh, the one based in New York, um, I got, I had applied for a business development representative position. Um, and I was like, oh, it sounds, I sound like such a dummy on this podcast. I'm like, I didn't know what I was going to do at procuring. Uh, you know, but my

Becca Moran: 00:46:45

first job was going to be either. I was like, oh, I did have to make cold calls and I was like, oh, I didn't understand that from the interview process.

Bryan Postelnek: 00:46:53

Yeah, I, I applied for this job and I was like, Oh, it sounds like you get to work with a bunch of different companies. How cool is that? Like, you know, and I talked with the recruiter and he's like, like, by the time I got had gotten there, like I applied in like March, I heard back in like June from the recruiter. And he was like, why are you applying for a sales role? You have like this engineering degree. Uh, I'm like, well, yeah, now I'd like to get into product. Um, he's like, you know, we have an intern who isn't quite working out. Um, you know, let's, let's, uh, let's see if yeah. Um, I can get you in for the role and, you know, maybe they'll, they'll host two interns here and, you know, I followed up with him, you know, I was, I asked for help, you know, you know, getting after I got an internship, I asked for his help on how to become a full time employee. Um, you know, I really leveraged, uh, the power of someone willing to help me in, in my early career and then at, um, at getting a job at answers list, similarly, like, you know, I had applied, didn't hear anything back. I, you know. LinkedIn messaged or maybe even email, like the VP of HR. I was like, Hey, look, I think they could fit for this role. Um, you know, and then they're like, yeah, you would be like, you know, I got set with a call for a recruiter and then, you know, the rest is history. Yeah, I think there really is power to, you know, the hustle, the asking for help, the leveraging your network, um, in, in, you know, getting your job, but also in, in working in product.

Becca Moran: 00:48:17

I think that's a really great point and something that like. Yeah, from seeing that as a hiring manager, like, automatically you get points for, like, showing hustle and initiative to, um, to get an interview. I think that just like, I don't know. There's part of it that is just kind of like common sense that, like, as the person hiring, you're like, oh, I'm, I'm flattered that you're so interested and you're pursuing this, like, That that means a lot. And, um, you know, I, I think you're really smart about the way that you leverage your network. And, um, you know, I've, I've experienced, I think, a similar thing in a different context where, like, when I came to work at procurated, one of my concerns was like, oh, my gosh, as the first person here, like, I'm not going to have, like, when I don't know what to do, I'm not going to have someone to ask. Um, I can't remember who actually kind of gave me this perspective, but they were like, you, you have a whole network of people. You don't just have your immediate company to turn to. And, you know, looking back on the last few years, I think of all of the random people that I've reached out to some of which, like. I've reached out to people like, Oh yeah, that person like sold me software like days ago at, but like, they're connected to someone I want to talk. Like, all you have to do is ask. And I consistently surprised by how generous people are with their time. And you know, part of it is like earning that, right? Like I'm not running around being a jerk to people and then you help me, right? Like be nice, be a good person. Um, but yeah, like that stuff. Does go a long way and are even very busy senior people I have found are oftentimes willing to help if you just ask. So, um, I think that's really great advice and, um, definitely appreciate your perspective on that. And of course, I love to see the hustle. So, yeah. Um, all right. Are you ready for the rapid

Bryan Postelnek: 00:50:36

fire? I am ready for the rapid fire. I would like to be fired at rapidly now.

Becca Moran: 00:50:42

Okay. I'm ready. That just made me nervous for some reason. Well, now I

Bryan Postelnek: 00:50:46

expect it to be very... How fast do I have to talk? Yeah, I expect it to be very rapid. Okay.

Becca Moran: 00:50:51

Um, first question. Could a friend or close family member accurately describe what you do?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:50:58

Uh, today, uh, yes, because I'm interviewing. And I'm unemployed, but no, you,

Becca Moran: 00:51:06

for curated Brian said, Hey, Brian's mom. What

Bryan Postelnek: 00:51:09

does Brian do? No, uh, no. Uh, you know, a lot of the time, no. You know, I, a lot of the time you, I still get family members misp, miss saying I'm a project manager. Yes. And I'm like, oh, I'm not a project manager. I, you know, I'm a product manager and I get, I'm sure there's many product people who also get a little bit grumpy about, uh, the J and D swap. Um, but, uh, but no, I've been trying to describe it for years to, you know, like, like my wife or to my parents and, you know, they get like the gist and it's like, you have to remember what I do. I should really simplify it to like, I just. I just work with people like I get things done every now and then. I'm a people person. I'm a people person. That's, yeah. Most of my job is just talking. Uh, you know, it's,

Becca Moran: 00:51:59

it's like there's a challenge of explaining what the company does, which I find is like, oh yeah, fertile number one. And then when people are like, but like, what do you personally do? I'm like, it's

Bryan Postelnek: 00:52:10

amorphous. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm, I'm both everything and nothing at the same time. like little omni fun. Yeah. I'm a little, uh, omnipotent. Yeah, just all that one. The all knowing or or is everywhere. I think that one's omnipotent. I think means I'm everywhere. This is omnipresent omniscient. Oh, gosh. Oh, man. There's three versions. Someone's got to listen to this. I hope that I work with someone who ends up listening to this and they're like, wow, he did a great job on that podcast. Yeah. We, we, we thought, we thought we were getting one thing and he didn't know his vocabulary of words.

Becca Moran: 00:52:53

Speaking of words, that's a good segue. What is one like product or tech word or phrase, you know, business lingo thing that you wish you never had to

Bryan Postelnek: 00:53:04

hear again? Um, uh, you know, it has something probably something to do with like, uh, can I get an estimate on that? Or like, can we do it faster? Yeah. When will it be done? Those types of things. I know I'll hear it again. Um, but you know, it can be a little bit, uh, uh, nails on the chalkboard sometimes, uh, depending on when you're being asked, I'm sure I'm guilty of it too, like, but I try to ask in probably other masked ways where it's like, you know, what if we did this thing or what, if we did that thing, how does it affect? That I think maybe some of the bluntness of, like, just wanting an estimate, uh, is sometimes a little,

Becca Moran: 00:53:48

uh, when you realize how preposterous that question actually is, like, oftentimes you get asked that when, like. The scope of what you're trying to accomplish is completely undefined and you're like, I don't know how long it'll take to build. I don't even know what we're talking

Bryan Postelnek: 00:54:06

about. Right. Like, yeah, I can give you something, but it's going to be wrong by some order of magnitude. Yeah. Uh, so I become a lot

Becca Moran: 00:54:13

more comfortable with that for what it's worth over the years of just being like, yes, here's. Here's a date or a number and like, with a very flimsy level of commitment

Bryan Postelnek: 00:54:24

to that, as long as everyone knows it's, it's a flimsy commitment. Like, like, I've worked in places where, like, when they ask it, they mean it. Yeah, you know, you better be right about this because we're making plans around it. Yeah, and I'm like, uh, like, we shouldn't like, we're going to be wrong. Like, please don't, please don't

Becca Moran: 00:54:41

plan the rest of everything. No matter how much time and effort we put into estimating, we will still be wrong. So just know

Bryan Postelnek: 00:54:46

that. Let's just get, if it's something we definitely feel conviction around doing, let's just start doing it. Like, let's just know, let's know at least it's going to take a year versus a month, like, like on that scale, but like, don't ask me for the drop dead date today. Like we haven't even started.

Becca Moran: 00:55:02

Um, I'll ask this in a general way, uh, about kind of like over the course of your career, how often would you say that you would actually talk to customers or users in your role in product?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:55:18

Yeah. Uh, I would say, you know, uh, on the order of monthly, um, I wish it was more often.

Becca Moran: 00:55:30

I thought you pushed us as an organization to be more diligent about having these conversations. Yeah, it was like, it

Bryan Postelnek: 00:55:37

came in spurts. Um, a lot of the time we're like, you know, I had, I had a question. I was like, let me go talk to folks. I, I really wanted to set up more of a continuous process where, like, you know, had people talk to on a weekly basis. It's, it's. Yeah, oh, yeah, it's, it's a lot of work, um, you know, between like, finding the people you want to talk to, you know, what do you want to talk to them about consistently? Documenting synthesizing, like, you know, there's a reason that you have UX researchers, uh, you know, do, do that work. So it's easier to like, do like a campaign and be like, here's like the 1 thing I'm going to go learn about at a given time. And bunched up all together, um, but you can, you can do a lot of them, um, in, in good succession. I feel like I did like 30 within like a quarter or something at one point procurated. Um, you know, it's just, it's about really focusing on it. So, yeah, I, I think an ideal state, it'd be like one to two times a week. I'd say that'd be like super, super healthy. Like you're in touch with your customers. You have a good pulse on it. Um, uh, but I think like if I were to average it out, like, you know, I probably Probably once a month if you had to like spread it out.

Becca Moran: 00:56:50

Yeah. Um, what is a book or person who has been, uh, that's been most influential in your career?

Bryan Postelnek: 00:57:02

Yeah, I think the, yeah, I was, I was looking to see if I have Marty's book around. I think it's in the ottoman

Becca Moran: 00:57:09

over there. We referenced Marty on a first name basis. Yeah.

Bryan Postelnek: 00:57:13

Yeah. I wrote. I've seen him in enough videos. I've read his newsletter. I can call him Marty. I've emailed him. Didn't

Becca Moran: 00:57:18

you say, didn't you really reach out to him with a

Bryan Postelnek: 00:57:20

question at one point? I did. Yeah. I don't remember the question is anymore, but he writes you back. Like, yeah,

Becca Moran: 00:57:25

this, this just proves the point I made here earlier.

Bryan Postelnek: 00:57:27

Just yeah. Like there was, there was a, there was a guy. Um, I don't remember his name. I know his newsletter is ABC. Oh yeah. Fred Wilson. You Yeah. Fred Wilson. I emailed. He, he, he wrote about like a Kickstarter campaign once, so I emailed him about the headphones. He was saying We should like totally get on Kickstarter. And he wrote me back. I was like, yeah, yeah. People, people write stuff like to write you back. Yeah. Um, so, uh, I'm gonna say

Becca Moran: 00:57:52

Marty. Marty Ka. It's Kagan,

Bryan Postelnek: 00:57:53

right? Marty Kagan, yeah. Yeah. Marty Kagan. The inspired,

Becca Moran: 00:57:57

inspired, inspired. And what was the

Bryan Postelnek: 00:57:58

second one? Empowered. Uh, empowered. And then I think he also co-wrote the most recent one. Um, I don't remember what it's called anymore, but it's also like a one, one word, impactful word, uh, type of thing. Uh, uh, but yeah, I would say that one was really impactful because that really opened up my eyes to, you know, what product could be, what are some different ways to think about product. And it's in a nice, like it's in one book, one book or two books. Yeah. Very readable. Very. What's also interesting is like when you read a book like that. Um, like I read it at my first job and I was like, I don't get it and like, in like the middle of that job. And then you read it again. It was either at the end of my time there or at the beginning of Angie's list. I'm like, okay, like this clicks in a different way now. Um, so I'd say there's some power to revisiting some of these concepts and these books at different stages in your career and being like, oh, I know this pretty well, but I forgot about that thing. Or that's a really like, he has great ways. I've referenced a few times, um, how to know that people are like invested in your product or idea. And he has some great tips about like, you know, if people are willing to give time, if people are willing to give money, if they're willing to give, like use their social clout, you know, to reference it. Like those are all like good signs as indicators, uh, people will like what people are actually invested in what you're building. And so it's like, those are great things to like, you know, go reference again in a book and like reinforces learning. Yeah, love that.

Becca Moran: 00:59:26

Love Marty. All right. Last question for you. So you, you are on this career path in product, but, uh, when you were a kid, what was your dream job? What did you think you

Bryan Postelnek: 00:59:38

would be doing? Uh, gosh, there's so many things I thought I'd be doing that. Like, I've, I've done so many different things in my life at this point, like, uh, but I, in terms of my career, um, you know, I don't, I don't know that I ever, like, had like, uh. Uh, I, the only one I distinctly remember, uh, probably because I was told. I wouldn't be good at it because

Becca Moran: 01:00:07

it gave me this nice little chip on your

Bryan Postelnek: 01:00:09

shoulder. Yeah. Right. Like, like, you know, leading. So, like, you know, as, as a kid, so not a teenager when I was like, okay, I'm going to go be an engineer, um, as a kid, um, at some point I wanted to be a rabbi. Uh, yeah, yes, I believe I've told this before I procurated, uh, and, uh, the rabbi at the, at the synagogue, uh, deterred me from it from some reason or another, um, which every now and then you still hear about, uh, spoken in my household. About like, oh, if that rabbi hadn't said that to you, maybe you'd be a rabbi. If

Becca Moran: 01:00:45

you, like, knowing what you know about yourself now, do you think you would be a good rabbi?

Bryan Postelnek: 01:00:53

Um, I think I'd be a decent rabbi. I have no idea what makes

Becca Moran: 01:00:57

a good

Bryan Postelnek: 01:00:59

rabbi. Right. Like, uh, I think that, well, knowing what I know myself about now, um, you know, my, my, my, uh, religiosity. Yeah. I really isn't there, um, but he's

Becca Moran: 01:01:13

probably a pretty

Bryan Postelnek: 01:01:14

core tenant of it, but I feel like the, the interpersonal relationship angle of being, um, a rabbi, like, that's, that's where, like, I think, uh, I might succeed. I'm sure there's some, some stuff I could do on the margins to, uh, to, to, you know. Know how to talk to people better or or listen in better ways. There's a good book on that. Um, we read it. There's a book club at Angie's. I suppose the name of the book. I'm going to remember it at some point. Um, it has to do with, like, listening to both sides of the story. It's probably also on a bookshelf. Yeah, I'm putting the show notes. Brian remembered the book that he read once that he vaguely alluded to at the end of the podcast about talking to people about talking to people. Uh, yeah. But it's, it's a, it's a great book. You just, you just learn about listening to both sides. An

Becca Moran: 01:02:04

alternate universe where you had become a rabbi and then made your pivot into product and then like created some sort of software for rabbis.

Bryan Postelnek: 01:02:16

I'm sure they can. I don't know what that software would do, but. Honestly, uh, software for rabbis, uh, would either be, uh, I think they know enough about like the, the, um, like the Torah and everything, so they probably don't need that, but they might need like a CRM for like managing, you know, relationships with different folks in their communities. Yeah. Um, because you, you do with a lot of personality, just like just generate, generate something for me to say about this passage while conducting, um, services. That would be a good one. Um, but I feel like that's just your, uh,

Becca Moran: 01:02:50

your favorite rabbi.

Bryan Postelnek: 01:02:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone, anyone use that idea? I'm not going to pursue it. Feel free to make software for rabbis.

Becca Moran: 01:02:59

Incredible. Um, well, this has been so fun. It has been a pleasure talking to you as always, and, uh, recounting the story with you. And I hope that. Other people find it remotely as entertaining as I do, uh, and learn something from it and find some, some good insights here. So thank you again. Appreciate. You coming on the show and giving us your time.

Bryan Postelnek: 01:03:26

Well, thank you. Thank you for having me back up. Always like same thing. Love chatting with you today. Hope people find this, um, you know, while you're driving or working out or whatever you might be doing while you listen to us, um, you know, let us know what you thought

Tim Winkler: 01:04:00

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