How We Hatched: Greg Gershman, CEO of Ad Hoc

Welcome to the Pair program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world.

I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad, and I'm

your other host, Mike Gruen.

Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics

at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth.

Let's jump into it.

Greg, thanks for joining us on the the Pair Program.

Um, this is another bonus episode of a mini series that we call How We Hatched.

So this will be a fun discussion.

Uh, hear a little bit about your unique career journey, you know, where

you came from and how you arrived at this current point in your seat today

as a co-founder and c e o of ad hoc.

Um, so we'll zigzag a little bit along the way.

Um, but, uh, you know, some of the things that I'm, I'm excited to kind

of draw on from this conversation, which is pretty front and center

for us, uh, in our community is, you know, a lot around, you know, uh,

how, you know, folks coming maybe from commercial technology backgrounds

can innovate in the government space.

Um, you know, obviously pretty relevant to what you all are doing.

Um, but, um, first off, I always like to start by getting.

To the foundation of, of who Greg Gershman is.

So we usually kick off with the question, what did Greg Gershman

have for breakfast this morning?

Uh, that is a great question.

Uh, for breakfast this morning, I don't think I officially had breakfast.

Uh, I was traveling this morning.

Um, but it was, I think it was basically a kind bar.

Uh, so yeah,

little leftovers from the hiking, uh, and the Smokies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Solid.

Um, well, breakfast is important, but that is not how we typically start off.

Uh, the conversation.

We usually will say, you know, give us a little bit, um, give

the listeners a little bit of a context on ad hoc, uh, and the, the

problems that you're solving here.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, uh, yeah, and thanks for having me, uh, having me on.

Um, Yeah.

So, uh, for those, uh, not familiar ad hoc, so we're, uh, essentially

like a digital services consultancy.

Uh, we work with mostly federal, uh, but also some state and local, uh,

government agencies to help them, uh, build, uh, online services,

uh, to help them serve the public.

Um, the big challenge that, uh, my partner, uh, Paul Smith and I

saw, um, so prior to founding the company, um, I had been doing some

work, uh, with the White House.

I was in this program called the Presidential

Innovation Fellowship Program.

Um, and, uh, you may remember in, uh, I, I was doing that

called healthcare.gov that launched.

Um, and so, you know, healthcare.gov was, uh, a very ambitious undertaking.

Um, and really I think one of the first times in, in certainly, you know, very

visible times where the government really hung like the entire success

of a piece of, uh, a social program, uh, on the functioning of a website.

Um, and, you know, actually look in the, the, the, you know, the law there,

there is mention of that there will be an online mechanism for signing up.

So it's a big part of the strategy of the, the Affordable Care Act was

that they would have this website and that anybody would be able to go to

it and sign up and get healthcare.

Um, and, uh, you know, as you may remember, when it launched,

it did not, uh, go very well.

Uh, the website launched on, uh, October 1st.

Um, I, uh, the number that I have seen, uh, you know, or

kind of is the official numbers.

Then on the first day, six people were able to sign up for healthcare.

Um, and it's not that they were only six people who were interested.

Uh, the website, uh, failed to, uh, you know, uh, stay up with all the

traffic that was coming at it, uh, and made it very, very difficult for folks

to, um, create accounts, log in, you know, fill out the 80 some questions

that you needed to, uh, to answer about yourself in order to determine

your eligibility for, uh, healthcare, whether it would be subsidized or not.

Um, and then go through the process of selecting a plan.

Um, only six people were able to get through that process.

So, um, I was very fortunate at the time, you know, had, had, uh, been working

in, uh, in and around the White House.

Um, gotten to know a lot of folks there, uh, and, um, you know, was, was able to.

Uh, you know, get involved with this effort, uh, to, to fix the website.

Uh, you know, from my perspective, uh, as a software engineer, uh, it's a website.

You know, I figured it was maybe some, you know, database tables needed to

be optimized, something like that.

Uh, but, uh, you know, when we got on the ground and, and you know, kind of put

a team together of, of a couple people all, you know, technology backgrounds,

uh, mostly software engineering backgrounds, uh, you know, what we saw

was that the thing that had been built was really, uh, not the way we, uh,

and all of us had experience, you know, building high traffic, um, websites,

you know, that we're public facing, so like consumer internet kinds of things.

Um, Not how we would've done it.

You know, the technology involved was very different than the

technology we would've selected.

Um, the processes used were very different than how we would've organized or

managed a project of that size and scope.

Um, and the experience of the people, uh, working on it, um, was not necessarily,

uh, you know, uh, you know, a hundred percent aligned with, you know, building

this kind of site that millions of people needed to access at once.

It needed to help navigate people through a very complex process.

Um, you know, most people.

You know, deal with healthcare through their employer.

You know, there's a limited set of options, you know, not

a whole lot to choose from.

And so, you know, you kind of just pick A, B or C, something like that.

This was, you know, tons of plans, all sorts of new terms for people

that no one really understood.

So it's a very complex process and, you know, just that was a thing

that government had not really tried to do on that scale at that point.

And what, so what we observed is that, you know, the experience of the,

you know, in, within the government ecosystem, by which I mean, you know,

the, the government, uh, itself, but also the vendors or contractors that

government works with, which if you know, uh, you know, if, if you've ever

had experience with government, you'll know that contracting is a big part of

how government, um, gets stuff done.

Uh, right.

They, there's, there's kind of like a core of government employees, but then

there's contractors who are employed, you know, to bring in special kinds of skills.

Um, to help government fulfill its mission.

Um, and, uh, you know, what we saw is like this, there was a big gap here

in what the government had available to it, um, and what it was trying

to achieve with a website like this.

Um, and, and you know, we, we kind of looked at that from the perspective of

what are people used to, you know, what do people experience in their everyday lives?

In fact, if you go back and look at some of the press around the Affordable Care

Act, um, the president at the time, Barack Obama, talked a lot about how, uh, he

wanted there to sort of be like a kayak of healthcare, you know, something like that.

Mm-hmm.

A site that pretty much all of us were familiar with.

I think Kayak is still relevant, right?

It's sort of like a meta search for travel.

Um, you know, but, you know, associated with like good user experience,

good design, um, really streamlined functionality, you can get what

you wanna get done really quickly.

Um, that was a big, a big thing and that's what people expect from

the services that they use online.

Um, And so we just saw, we saw that there was a lot missing there.

Um, and so we decided to start a company, uh, to, uh, to try and bring

that, uh, you know, uh, in terms of experience, technology process, uh, you

know, into government and see if there was, uh, you know, a market for it.

Um, and so that's, that's how we got started.

That's really, you know, the, the, um, the, the sort of, you know,

our origin story, so to speak, cuz that's the problem that we observed.

Um, and, you know, our, our solution was, you know, let's start a company

and, and, you know, bring people who have the same kinds of experience that

we had, uh, into the government space and see, uh, you know, if there's

a, if there's a need, uh, for that.

Nice.

Yeah, it sounds like a right place, right time kind of situation.

Um, you were right there when, when this, uh, situation arrived and,

um, you know, you had kind of that background and I was curious, did

you have a, a co-founder that, um, you know, you started AdHawk with?

Or was it a solo, um, founding at that time?

Yeah.

Uh, so a gentleman by the name of Paul Smith, no relation to the, uh, the,

the fashion company, uh, or any of the other, uh, that's a very common name.

Uh, Paul.

Yeah.

Paul and I met the first day of the, what we call the healthcare.gov rescue effort.

We met right outside the White House.

Uh, ironically, we both, uh, had, uh, lived in Baltimore just a

couple miles apart from each other.

Um, For many years, um, but had never met.

Um, and, uh, yeah, Paul and I got to know each other over the course of

the couple months that we were working on, you know, fixing healthcare.gov.

Um, and then, you know, uh, teamed up to, uh, to create an organization, create a

company, um, to take it to the next level.

So I like to, you know, backtrack a little bit here

as well, you know, your, uh, kind of journey into the, the world of tech.

Um, you know, let's, let's start there as well.

You know, how did you, um, I guess get into technology?

You know, was it something that, you know, kind of ran in the family

or, um, tell me a little bit about that journey into the world of tech.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I grew up in the, you know,

the eighties and the early nineties, uh, in, uh, right outside, uh, DC

and Montgomery County, Maryland.

Uh, and, uh, you know, it was very fortunate that my parents, uh, got

me a computer at a very young age.

Uh, my first computer was a, uh, Commodore 1 28.

Um, and, uh, you know, I, I just was always tinkering around playing with

it, playing games, you know, um, experimenting with different things,

you know, wrote a couple text-based games as a kid, you know, always

kind of playing around with stuff.

Um, and I, I think, you know, at some point, uh, you know, in, in high school,

I think I, I really felt like this is, this is a path I want to go down.

Um, I also have a very creative side to me.

So, you know, I, I, I like to, um, sort of, you know, like create new

things, um, you know, build things and I, I found that, you know, software,

uh, was a, a good medium for me to be able to kind of express that.

So it's, it's been something that I've always really.

Had a, uh, had an interest in, um, when it came to, uh, college, um, I, uh, I did

sign up to be a computer science major.

Um, I will admit, at the time I didn't realize that it was essentially math,

uh, which was my least favorite subject.

Um, and so, uh, but I, I, I managed my way through a computer science

degree, um, and, uh, you know, and, and then, uh, coming outta that, started

working, uh, as a software engineer, uh, from the beginning, you know?

Right, right outta college, basically.

Yeah, I saw that.

Was it, uh, Johns Hopkins applied Physics Lab.

Is that where you started?

Yeah, that was my first job at a college.

The, the, uh, Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab.

Um, great place.

They do a lot of, uh, you know, applied research.

Um, I got to work on.

Uh, you know, some, uh, simulation systems for, you know, missiles

and, you know, uh, kind of measuring like how the radar works.

Um, built like a little weather system that goes on the back of Navy Cruisers.

Um, stuff like that, which was, uh, you know, was pretty cool for, uh,

for a, a young person to get, get the opportunity to work on things like that.

Yeah, we're,

they're doing some really interesting stuff.

We actually have a couple of, uh, guests, uh, coming out of, uh, J H U A

P L that are talking more on this topic around, you know, innovating in defense.

Uh, and, and of course like all the work that they, they do with,

uh, you know, defense research.

It's, it's really fascinating and it seems like it's a, a great place to

start a career in terms of, you know, giving, getting you some exposure to

tinkering, you know, getting, getting you a little bit more of that flexibility.

Um, but that was in a, was that a cleared environment?

Was it, you know, um, you know, tell, tell, tell me about, uh, you know, your,

your introduction into, you know, going into, I guess you would call that more of

like the public sector type of support.

Yeah.

A p l is, is not what I would typically call, like public.

I mean, it is public, it's, you know, it's, it's applied research.

Um, although they, they do take your stuff and then throw it on a

boat or something like that and tell you that now it's in production.

Um, and we were not building it for that, uh, that kind of thing, but, Um, uh,

yeah, I mean, I, I thought it was, it was a, it was a very cool place to work, you

know, it was cleared, so I had a secret secret clearance, um, which is not too

hard to, to, to get, from what I could tell, basically, if you haven't murdered

any murdered anybody recently Right.

You could get a, a secret clearance.

Um, but, um, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, it, it was, it was interesting.

I, I mean, I, it was, the timing for me was interesting.

at the beginning of like the web.

Mm-hmm.

You know, kind of boom.

Right?

It's when, you know, pets.com and all this stuff was happening.

And, um, you know, very quickly I was there for just about a year and I,

I, I was really drawn towards, uh, you know, the, the commercial sector.

Um, really wanted to see if I could, uh, you know, Get, you know, get a

job at a company and, uh, you know, uh, work on some very cool public

facing, you know, kinds of things, which, that was very new back then.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I, I ended up switching over, I worked at a company called

Ather Systems, which is up in, uh, uh, right outside Baltimore.

Um, and, uh, was a great environment, you know, they had gone public before

I joined, um, had a lot of money.

I got to work in, uh, mobile application development before this was well

before the iPhone, so we were building a lot of that stuff from scratch.

There were no, uh, you know, uh, transmission protocols for mobile

devices and things like that.

So we had to do a lot of really cool, like lower level stuff, uh, but also

got to work at like, the application level, and I got to do some r and d stuff

there, which I thought was really cool.

Um, it was a great environment for, for me as a young technologist

working in a tech company.

Um, you know, I was challenged.

I had people that I, uh, was, that were mentoring me, um, that were, you know,

helping me, guiding me, uh, and, and you know, really and lifting me up and, and.

Um, I loved working there, even though the company really didn't make any

money, um, or, or wasn't profitable.

Um, and, you know, uh, was, was, uh, that, that was the only downside to it.

But I, I loved working there.

I, I got to do some really cool stuff and worked with some really smart people.

Um, so this is, you know, after nine 11 and, you know, the tech

stuff started to kind of crash.

Um, and, uh, you know, I, I, I, at the time, uh, had, was recently

married and had, uh, kids at, like two young kids at home.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and needed a job.

So I took the first job I could find, which was working, um, for

a large government contractor at a large government agency.

Uh, I, I, I will, uh, you know, protect the, the innocent or, uh, not

by, uh, not referencing them by name.

Um, But, uh, you can find out more about them if you read various things.

Um, but, uh, uh, you know, I, I was excited, honestly, was really excited.

That was really my first experience, what I would call public sector work.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, again, like the, the stuff at a p l was, was, was very different.

You know, kind of working in this, this academic almost environment.

Um, this was really the first time where I was doing, you know, um, uh,

uh, more of like a services role, um, you know, onsite with a customer,

uh, building something for them.

Um, and I was really excited about the mission of the

agency that I was working for.

You know, I was helping a lot of people and I thought that was really cool.

Um, but, uh, unfortunately I just didn't feel the same kind of culture

around technology in that environment.

You know, it was very, very different than, um, you know, than, than what I had

experienced working at a tech company.

Um, you know, I really no principles around how they built software, how the

company was organized, what processes they used, what technology they picked.

Um, no mentoring, no.

Anything like that.

I mean, as far as I could tell, honestly, like my main job was to show up, uh,

so that I could put the number of hours that I worked on my time sheet, um,

and then bill that to the customer.

Um, the rest of what was going on to me really just seemed

like it wasn't, you know, wasn't the real important part of it.

Um, and I, I honestly was really turned off by that.

Um, I left there after 10 months.

Um, and, you know, frankly just said to myself like, you know, if this is

what government is like I, I, I'm, I'm really attracted to the mission and,

and, you know, being able to work on things that have this kind of an impact.

But I can't sacrifice at this stage in my career, you know, going into

an environment like that and, and, you know, all the, you know, the

detriments that would have to me in terms of my growth and my learning.

Um, and just my satisfaction with what, you know, what I was gonna be.

I knew, I knew kind of intuitively I would not grow into the

technologist I wanted to be.

Um, in that kind of an environment.

So, um, I left, um, worked in the commercial space for, um, almost a decade.

Um, did a couple startups, um, helped other people with startups.

I did a lot of consulting.

Um, and, uh, and then eventually found my way back into government.

Uh, and, uh, someone I pitched, uh, uh, to invest and join the

company, um, said, that's a bad idea.

You shouldn't do that.

Uh, instead you should come work with me on this.

Uh, this, this thing we're building at the General Services

Administration, uh, called search.gov.

And, you know, you, you have, I, I had built one, one of the, my first startup

had been a search engine company.

I built a search engine for blogs.

Um, so I, I learned a lot about how to build search engines.

So he really wanted me to come work with him on that.

Um, and I did, and I was, uh, blown away.

I, I thought all government programs were gonna be like this, you know, this

experience I'd had when I was younger.

Um, and this was completely different.

Um, it was very small, very agile, very much like working in a startup.

Um, you know, using, uh, Ruby on Rails, um, uh, elastic search, um, uh, you

know, pushing to production multiple times a day, agile development.

Um, it just, it really, I was really excited.

I was learning a ton.

Um, I was, you know, even at that point, you know, 10, 12 years into my career,

um, learning new things, really excited about the work I was doing, and I had

that impact that I had always, you know, kind of liked about government.

Um, and so that's when I really started to think like, okay, I, I

really want to, you know, understand more about how we can make more of

government like this, because mm-hmm.

I saw the power of that, that model.

Uh, and, and the fact that, you know, Technologists like myself could be

attracted to something like that and saw that like there's something there.

So that's really kind of when I, um, I think really got

intrigued by the public sector.

Um, and, and kind of all the pieces kind of came together for me from

my past experience to say like, here's how we could make this work.

Yeah, it's a fascinating journey because, um, you know,

one, you're, you're seeing, you know, how technology is, is built

in different, uh, ecosystems or different environments, right?

Um, you know, folks that are from the DC area, you know, they'll, they'll be

privy to, you know, some of these large government contractors that are out there.

I, I worked for one for two years after starting my first business,

um, you know, out in, in Indonesia, uh, came back and just felt like I

was so confined, uh, to, you know, not really being able to innovate.

I felt like it was.

And it's, and it's not like this is how all of them are, but, um, for

the most part, you know, we, we made a conscious decision to pivot into

commercial startups, um, instead of solely kind of supporting in the government

contracting space, which is, it's really in your face if you're in this area.

It's, it's, it's tough to kind of navigate through the noise of like,

who's doing government contracting and who's maybe building a product or, or

doing, you know, commercial consulting.

So it was, it's, it's a very different environment and if you've never worked

in it before, um, you know, it's tough to kind of wrap your head around like,

what we're, what we're describing here.

So I was hoping to be able to, you know, use this conversation

as a, as a platform to paint.

That picture that there is opportunity in, in those, uh, supporting the

government, but you know, you're doing it in a, in a different fashion here.

It's almost like you took what you loved about, you know, being nimble,

agile, working in commercial startup environments and trying to inject

some of this into how, you know, uh, p parts of the public sector build.

Um, and I think, um, you know, those are the things that, you know, so

one of the, one of the questions I had teed up to, to ask you is, you

know, with ad hoc specifically, right?

When you're hiring up, you know, software engineers, you know, what is it that

you're kind of looking for to, you know, in, in a technologist, uh, if you will,

that you feel will be able to kind of.

Apply and, and, and work with a, with a government customer, right?

Because you, you've kind of seen both sides of it, right?

So when you're hiring, for example, are you looking for folks that have seen both

sides or are you looking for a mold of, of an individual that, you know, you just

feel like they'll be, be able to adapt?

Yeah, that's a great question.

Um, I, yeah, I wouldn't say that I, I, I tend to look more at,

um, you know, look for more like, kind of inherent characteristics

than necessarily like experience.

I mean, you know, you can have worked in government and it could

have been a, you know, one kind of experience like you said.

I mean, it varies a lot, you know, agency to agency even, you know,

within an agency program to program.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, project to project is very different.

Um, but, you know, we look for people who, um, you know, number one, um, are really

passionate about what they do, right.

Care a lot about technology.

Um, that's something that, you know, uh, for me it was always a big deal.

Like I, you know, as a software engineer, I was very opinionated.

Um, you know, and, and I still, uh, you know, if I talk to any of our

teams working on things, um, you know, one of the questions I'll ask them

is like, what's your code coverage?

You know, what's your code test coverage?

Um, uh, you know, like looking for people who, you know, they don't necessarily

have to agree with what, uh, what, what my opinions are about software

development or design, or ux or product management or something like that.

But we do look for people who are, are passionate about

that kind of stuff, right?

Mm-hmm.

And, and, and really think deeply about it and care about it.

Um, you know, we, uh, we like to use the phrase strong

opinions loosely held, right?

You know, you should.

You should have an opinion on something, but you should also be open to being

convinced otherwise, uh, through, you know, through some kind of

discourse or, or something like that.

Um, so that's number one.

That's something we look for.

Uh, number two, we, we do look for people who, uh, wanna see the impact of what it

is that they're, uh, that they're mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, that they're working on.

Um, cause that's a big thing, you know, government can be for,

uh, you know, a lot of good work.

But, um, you know, I think it's, it's important to understand that like it's

public money, uh, you know, if, if you know, if you understand or at least you

know, the, the democratic process, you know, we, we elect people who make laws.

Who determine like the things that, you know, we're gonna spend our money

on collectively as a, as a country, um, as a community, as a society.

Um, and, you know, so that's, there's a level of trust

that's, that's given to that.

And so we do like to look for people who are interested in that, right?

Like, they take that responsibility that they're being given, uh, very

seriously and they're, they're eager to take that skill that they have, that

thing that they're passionate about, and apply it in a way where they can

see that impact, uh, very clearly.

So that's another thing, um, you know, that we're looking,

that we're looking for.

Um, those, those are probably the two primary things.

You know, obviously we're, we are looking at skills.

So, you know, one of the things we started early on was a homework based

process, um, for technical talent.

Um, so, you know, actually before we even interviewed you in person, um,

we would have you complete a homework.

Do a little programming challenge, um, send that in, we'd review it.

Um, we built a system where it was reviewed anonymously, so we

wouldn't see anything about you.

We wouldn't see your resume, we wouldn't see your name.

Um, we wouldn't see how many years of experience you had.

We had people coming through there with 10, 12 years of experience

who would do a tear, terrible job.

And then we'd have people coming in there through with like, who just got

out of a coding bootcamp, who would ace it, you know, would do an amazing job.

And so, like we were, we were very open about that.

But just looking at, you know, how do you solve problems?

How do you think through a challenge?

Can you, you know, can you explain that to us?

Um, is a big thing that we look for.

Um, you know, and to some extent we also assess like, you know, um,

Uh, we have a, we have a really strong culture around collaboration.

You know, we, we refer to the, the company as a team.

Um, you know, so there's, there's a big element of support.

Um, we're looking for people who, you know, that we would wanna work with.

Uh, we, we really believe that, you know, the work environment needs to be

one where, uh, you know, people are free to be themselves, um, you know, express

themselves, uh, do their best work when they can feel, uh, you know, that they can

be open and honest and things like that.

Um, the, you know, those, those kinds of things are, are very important.

So we're, you know, we're, we are evaluating a little bit

along those lines as well.

Um, and then finally, you know, the last thing, there does have

to be a little bit of resilience.

Uh, I love government.

You know, I've devoted the bulk of my career to it.

Um, maybe not the bulk at this point, but a significant part of my career mm-hmm.

Um, to government at this point.

Um, but it can be challenging, right?

And, and it's the kind of thing that, um, There, there are gonna

be days that are not gonna be fun.

You know, you're, you're, you're here to write software and you're gonna be

doing something completely different.

Um, but that's what has to be done in order to, you know, get the, get

the thing that you're working on over the finish line or to the next stage.

Um, and so, you know, the thing I always talk to people about is like,

if you in your head can think about what's the impact that I'm making

and what's the benefit, the positive benefit of that, hopefully for you,

that outweighs the negative of any of the, you know, bureaucracy or things

like that you have to go through.

You can't use this tool that you're very, you know, comfortable with or you

can't do a certain thing because, you know, policy says or something like that,

or that's not how we're gonna do it.

Um, those things, you know, you have to, everybody has to know like

what that balance is for themselves.

Um, so we do try and figure out like, is is the, you know, is

this person gonna be able to.

You know, to to, to, you know, be resilient in that kind of an environment,

uh, and, and that kind of thing.

So that's just kind of a rough thing of what we look for.

Um, but uh, yeah, in the, in the early days, almost all the people that we

hired did not have government experience.

Mm-hmm.

Which was really, I think, you know, in a lot of situations,

um, what we were looking for.

And also, uh, just the fact that like a lot of the way things were done in

the private sector, in the commercial world, commercial tech, uh, consumer

tech was just very different than how government was doing it lot.

Mm-hmm.

Technologies in the processes and, you know, just not a lot of overlap.

Do you find like there's, um, ever kickback or back in the day, was

there kickback of, of trying to bring, you know, commercial into these environments?

Or did they then think that maybe it would adapt well or, you know, what,

what was, what was like the, um, biggest challenges of, of really building the

trust with, with this type of a customer?

Yeah, I mean, I, we were very fortunate

when we started the company.

We had sort of like trust, uh, you know, kind of built in.

We, you know, started working with both, uh, the centers for Medicare,

Medicaid services and, uh, the Department of Veteran Affairs.

Um, mostly because we had really trusted relationships.

People that were bought into, you know, how we were gonna do it, right?

They, we were, you know, we are big proponents of agile development.

Uh, we were big, we are big proponents of cloud infrastructure and, you know,

now it's very common to find, you know, what I will call real cloud.

cloud floating around, many of which did not really, they weren't really

cloud, they were just essentially just like a virtual, uh, virtual instances.

Um, and so, you know, like there were things that we, we valued,

you know, pretty significantly.

Um, and, and we started out in, um, you know, with customers, uh, that, that.

Either they, they embraced that as well, or they were very interested

in learning and ex, you know, learning more and experimenting.

Uh, with it, with us, we were the first ones to use, uh, Amazon Web Services,

uh, you know, uh, at, at both of the agencies where we started, VA and

cms, um, you know, uh, first ones to do agile development, human-centered

design, product management later.

Um, so, um, you know, that part I, I would say was relatively easy.

Um, as we've expanded into other parts of government, especially into places

where, you know, that's not necessarily the case where we, you know, didn't have

that, you know, kind of pre-established trust and relationship when we started

the company, um, it's a lot harder, right?

Yeah.

Like, it really is, um, a, a lot of what it comes down to is, you know, how

do people think about technology and, you know, in the government, the person

who's buying that, you know, if they're contracting it, um, You know, there's, I

I, the line I say is there's no objective truth in government contracting, right?

It's not like, you know, they put out a thing saying, we need a new

website that, you know, people can sign up for this new benefit.

And, you know, they're gonna evaluate that and they're gonna be able to tell, you

know, oh, this proposal is objectively better than this proposal because they

chose to use this and like, without any preconceived notions whatsoever, right?

Mm-hmm.

The person who, or the people who are evaluating those proposals,

they have a certain idea about what it is that they wanna buy.

Um, you know, they have a picture of technology, uh, you know, what works and

what doesn't work and what they want.

And, you know, the, the, the, the person or the company that bids closest

to that and is most aligned with that is the one that's gonna win that

contract and, and build that system.

Um, so that's a, that's a big challenge.

I mean, you know, even, we're almost, we've been doing ad hoc now for nine

years, um, and we still find, you know, the, the bulk of the market

that's out there, especially now that we're a large business and

having to compete more broadly.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it's, it's not, uh, you know, the way that, uh, a hundred percent aligned

with how we think about technology.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and that is challenging.

Uh, you know, uh, it, it, it, it, it's, you know, maybe one of the toughest

challenges that we have right now as, uh, as a business at the stage that we're at.

Yeah.

There's a, um, there's a, a slogan and, and, uh, that's been thrown around in,

in a, in a book that was, uh, written called Hack the, the Bureaucracy.

Um, what does that mean?

What does that mean to you?

Uh, and, and, and how would you explain that in terms of like how ad

hoc is, is trying to, to innovate?

Yeah.

Uh, so that book, uh, written by, uh, marina Nitze, who, uh, was a good friend

of mine, um, uh, we worked together at the White House and, uh, she actually

was the chief technology officer at the va, uh, when we started the company.

Um, and so she was actually, uh, one of our first customers as well.

Um, uh, I, I think what Marina's talking about in that regard, and, you know, I had

a little bit of experience with this when I was a presidential innovation fellow.

Um, when you're inside government, It's, it, it's very hard to get things done.

Um, mm-hmm.

And, you know, I, I don't have a lot of experience in big corporate environments.

Um, so I'm, I'm a little bit hypothesizing about what that's like.

Um, but you know, you're in a big organization, there's ways to navigate it.

Um, government's very different than any of that.

And so I think what Marina and Nick do in that book, um, is kind of share

their experiences for, you know, when you're faced with, you know, an

organization that, you know, large, uh, unwieldy, does lots of different

things, um, you know, maybe has a certain element of dysfunction to it,

you know, from an operational standpoint.

Um, you know, mostly made up of very well-intentioned, um, very dedicated,

um, you know, people who want to be there and to make a difference.

Um, they have different advice, you know, various, you know, kinds of

advice on how do you navigate that.

What are some tools that you have in your toolbox?

To, you know, build relationships, get stuff done, um, you know, kind of build

rapport, all those kinds of things.

So, yeah, and I, you know, I, I had the, that book was really fun for me to read

because, um, we were, uh, I, I, I kind of know my strengths and weaknesses, um,

and uh, you know, I like building stuff.

Uh, and, um, marina and I were really good partners when we were working in the

White House, cuz Marina liked hacking the bureaucracy and I liked building stuff.

Um, and I got a sense after, you know, being in government for a little while,

um, that there was gonna be more building stuff going on on the contractor side.

Um, plus I had my experience with healthcare.gov where I saw that there

were, like, there was a big gap in what, where the contractors were.

Um, and so that's kind of where I gravitated, you know, I felt like

that's where my skill sets were best, uh, you know, best kind of suited, um,

But absolutely, I mean, there's a huge need for people inside government,

um, who have a vision for something.

You know, whether that's, uh, a, you know, an increase, uh, a a different

kind of experience for people, uh, different kind of organization, um,

you know, increased capability or capacity in terms of talent or people.

Um, that kind of stuff is super, super important.

Um, and as a big part of, you know, uh, what, uh, what I would say is, you know,

really the last 10 years, 10, 10, 11 years of, you know, this effort to kind of bring

more modern technology into government.

Um, yeah.

So it's great book.

I highly

recommend it.

Yeah, it's on my, it's on my reading list.

Um, it's, it's super relevant to a lot of the content that we're putting

out right now on, on our community.

Um, and, you know, we don't have to get into this right now, but you know, you're.

You can look at this too, around, you know, it gets really different

from like federal, you know, agencies to Department of Defense, you know,

might be a, a very different way of how, you know, if you look at them

as like customers almost, right?

It's like, you know, h how are, how am I going to be able to, you know, to, to get.

Uh, my point across like how, you know, how, how will I, will I be

able to get a common ground with this type of personality versus

somebody in this other agency?

Um, so it's just, um, you know, it's a, it's a huge space, you know, so trying

to get real granular in it and break it down from, you know, different, you know,

almost like sub-agencies within, within the government is what we're trying to do.

And, and see if we can see some trends or just, you know, help educate.

Because, you know, one of the reasons that we decided to, you know, make a bit

of a push for this type of, um, media, some of these upcoming episodes on the

podcast was, you know, we primarily, you know, work with commercial technologists

that are coming from startup environments.

Um, it's no secret that, you know, the, the commercial startup space

has gone through a, a, a tough.

Period right now with, um, with, with the state of the economy.

Uh, and so with that, you know, a lot of these folks are turning to,

you know, uh, industries that are maybe a little bit more stable.

Um, and, you know, there's a, there's a level of stability here.

If you think about.

Supporting the government.

Um, and so trying to help them, you know, navigate those waters and, and how

they would, you know, twofold one, you know, pursue an opportunity, uh, as, as

a technologist, um, or two, you know, building something, uh, uh, their own

startup and how they want to partner or, or, you know, sell to the government.

You know, these are things where you really have to kind of put your

yourself in the shoes of these folks and try to understand how to, you

know, how to best position, um, yourself to, uh, to, to, to win an

opportunity or to, uh, land a, a job.

Um, and so I think this is all helpful stuff.

Um, you know, one, I think it was something I was researching from, uh, you

know, uh, an article that you had written or, or a conference that you had spoken

to about, um, you know, product management really isn't a term that gets used to.

Too, too much in, in the government space, a lot of project management's always

historically been a pretty common term.

What, why is it, do you think, like product management should be maybe

a, a term that's more so, um, uh, adapted to in, in the public sector?

Yeah, that, that's a great question.

That is one of, uh, one of our, I I'd say like, you know, kind of core founding

tenants is to think about things in terms of products and not projects.

Um, uh, I, I think that goes back to, uh, you know, how we've built

things in the past, um, you know, and, and things in the past.

You know, the, the old adage of like, uh, measure twice and cut once, right?

Mm-hmm.

You wanna make sure you've got everything right before you do

something that can't be undone.

Um, and that's very true.

If you look back historically, like if you build a building,

um, it takes a long time.

It's very expensive, and it's very hard to change once you've done it.

Um, anyone has, if you've ever done home renovations, especially

while you're living in the home, it's a very miserable experience.

Right.

And, and, you know, even more so for like a big building, um, you know, or

things like aircraft carriers or, you know, airplanes or something like that.

You know, you, you wanna, you wanna get it as right as you can.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it's, you wanna invest that time upfront in making sure it's

designed properly, anticipate all the challenges, and then build it and use

it for as long as you possibly can.

Um, that's, that's how we've, you know, we've done things for a long time.

Um, the thing about software, which I think, you know, we discovered,

um, sometime probably in like the late nineties, early two thousands,

but really didn't kick in.

You know, in, in, in most places till a little bit later, um, is that you

actually had a lot of flexibility.

And some of it has to do with how we built software and some

of the tools that are available.

Um, but especially once the web, you know, kind of came about and, you know, things

just started moving really, really fast.

Um, you know, and so like development practices and everything had to

keep up with the, the ability to change so frequently, um, you know,

respond to, you know, new information or new like kinds of inputs.

Um, and also get like instant getting instant feedback from

people using your things.

We had to find ways to, to build things that kind of incorporated that in.

Um, and what we found is with software, you actually can change

things around pretty significantly.

Um, for relatively low cost, certainly not the same as like remodeling a house

or, you know, deciding that after I built this big office building, I need

to move the bathrooms to the other side of the, you know, whatever, right?

Um, software you can do, you can do that stuff for relatively,

uh, le you know, less expense.

Um, and so, uh, you know, and, and, and then once you start to build in, uh,

you know, the fact that, uh, you know, you have something that's out there, it

gets used, you observe people using it, um, then you learn from that and you

wanna put another iteration out, right?

So all the, the, the advancements in technology and software led to a much

different way of thinking about how do we put something out, you know,

how, how do we build and how do we manage something, um, that's out there?

Um, and you know, that that is how, you know, the product, product

management, product development kind of philosophy, uh, became

very common in the startup world.

So, you know, things like, um, you know, lean product or mm-hmm.

You know, those kinds of things became very popular.

Um, but it's, I think the recognition that when you have something, a piece

of technology, it's not a static thing.

Um, as much as, you know, we would like to think it is.

Um, right?

You build the building, you live in it for 50 years or whatever it is, and then,

you know, you sell it to the next person or you, you know, Whatever it ceases

to be useful and you knock it down, um, uh, technology's different, right?

And it, it affords us the ability to, to iterate on something, improve it

incrementally adapt to new information.

Um, and that's the kind of thing that, you know, we like to kind

of center our methodology around.

And so, um, and, and that's really critical, right?

You, you know, you put out a piece of technology, um, and, uh, you

know, it's current as of the day that it's launched, people use it.

They're giving you feedback.

You have to adapt it and change it.

Um, and even if they're not giving you feedback, people's

expectations change over time.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and you have to keep up with that or you will be left behind.

Um, a great example that I like to use about that is when I first started

just kind of getting started, you know, kind of getting traction, but,

you know, most of the time you went to a website if you had to do anything.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, uh, you know, our, our sort of like policy in the government

was, we felt like it's best to tell people don't build mobile apps.

It's very expensive, you know, it's, it's a whole separate

kind of development thing.

Uh, you know, just build websites that are mobile responsive.

So, you know, something that's very, it'll work just as well in a mobile

browser as it will on a desktop browser.

Um, and I think that was the right call in, like, you know, circa

Um, you look at it now and there is no major service provider that any

of us use on a day-to-day basis, or even like on a monthly basis, um, that

doesn't have an app on your phone.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Because apps have the, the phone has become the main way that we

all access, you know, stuff online.

Um, Everybody's built their apps, you know, whether it's you're

taking a picture of your checks to deposit them in your bank.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you're booking a hotel room, you're booking a flight.

We all do this on our phones now and we all use the apps.

That's how we think about it.

And so for a government agency to provide a service and not offer

it through an app, starts to feel like they're not meeting the needs.

They're not keeping up to date with what people's expectations are.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so whereas 10 years ago, I wouldn't have said, you absolutely

have to have a mobile app strategy.

Now, when I talk to people, it's one of the first things that I'll tell them.

It's like, this is what people expect, you know, this is what they're expecting.

And, um, one of the projects we've done for, uh, the Department of Veteran

Affairs has been very successful, um, has been building a mobile app where

we took a look at what do veterans need on the phone, you know, when

they, when they actually pick up the phone and they have that persistent.

Apps sitting on their, uh, on their phone, what are the things that

would be most valuable to them and building specifically to that.

Um, and that's been a really big success.

Um mm-hmm.

And I think it's really a testament to this, you know, this idea

of product management, right?

Is that like you have to continually be evaluating how you're serving people,

you know, the thing, your product that's out there and isn't meeting

their needs, and is there something else that you could be providing, um,

that would all that, you know, would, that meet, that would meet their needs

better, uh, than what you have out there?

Which is really a question that, you know, especially in government,

is not something that they traditionally have asked very well.

Right?

Put a law in place, you implement it and that's it, right?

Mm-hmm.

They haven't thought about the technology as, you know, something

that evolves, something that needs to change on a frequent basis.

Um, and I think that's the product mentality really helps you do that.

Yeah, the, the user

experience, right?

The, the user research of, you know, what is it that these folks really, truly want?

Um, and really polling the users, uh, you know, hu human-centered design, like

really understanding how is it gonna make their lives easier or, or simplify things.

Um, I love the, I love your example about, about how apps have just, you know, they,

I mean, if, if you're not building an app, then, you know, it's, it's, it's tough

to, uh, to have everybody just go to the website and figure it out from there.

Like, give me that simplicity of just open up the app and

everything's front and center.

Um, so true.

Um, well, we, you know, we only have a couple of minutes

left, uh, for this segment.

So, I guess I'll just kinda wrap with, um, you know, what are, what are some

know, what are some of these things that, you know, we can expect, uh, from

an innovation perspective, uh, some of the tech technologies, some of those

skill sets that you're, you're foreseeing gonna be in high demand this year?

Um, well, I, you know, I think in, in the government space, I

think there's still, uh, a tremendous amount of progress to be made.

Uh, you know, just in terms of, again, like centering everything that we build

around, uh, you know, uh, Always good to have an intuition and kind of, you

know, trust your gut, but also to, you know, provide some research and, and,

you know, do that human-centered design.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I, you know, I think that we're seeing an increased adoption of those

kinds of practices in government.

Um, you know, th this, this administration came out with a, the customer experience

executive order, um, which has really helped government kind of center

their attention around what are the things that we're building, you know,

what, what are the experiences that we're trying to provide and not, you

know, focus it as much around the agencies or the specific programs.

Um, and I think that's been really helpful in just kind of shifting

everyone's mindset, um, you know, to, uh, you know, to that kind of a thing.

Um, so I, I, you know, to me that's something that I just see growing more

and more, um, every year, you know, more agencies adopting, uh, adopting that,

moving into those kinds of practices.

Um, and, uh, and you know, and this administration, I think

has been really key in, in, you know, kind of pushing that.

Um, so that's been good.

Um, the other thing that I would just say, I mean, it, you know, sounds kind of, uh,

ish and whatever, but I will say, I mean, you know, if you go back and look at stuff

I post online, I was very, uh, uh, not a big believer in web three, uh, and crypto.

Um, and I'd like to say I think I was proven, uh, myself and many

others who said it was not really gonna amount to much, uh, proven.

Proven correct.

Um, but I do think that ai, uh, and the stuff that's going on now with

mm-hmm uh, large language models is really something that's gonna

change the game quite substantially.

Um, we're, you know, thinking a lot about that and how it's gonna

impact everything from like, the services that we offer our customers.

We actually have, um, done some very, uh, experimental kinds of things with,

it's already, with some customers that have been, I think a success.

Um, but, um, but also, um, you know, uh, how it's gonna ex change

the experience for the developer.

Um, you know, or for the, the researcher or for the product manager, um, how

that's gonna change, what it is that they do, the skills that they have,

um, the tools that they have available and what that's all gonna look like.

I mean, it's, it's moving so fast, faster than anything I've ever seen.

Yeah.

Uh, you know, in my, you know, uh, how many years have I been doing this?

Uh, a while, uh, 20 some years.

Uh, and, uh, you know, I, I think that's really gonna have a huge impact.

Uh, and, and, you know, uh, That is one that I think, uh, I, I, everybody

needs to be paying attention to that, uh, really gonna, uh, uh, I think really

change things quite substantially.

Yeah,

it's, it's an interesting, uh, topic.

Um, you know, we were just kind of pulling our team earlier about, uh, you know,

ai, you know, is it something that you think, you know, you're very excited

about how it's going to change the future?

Does it make you terrified?

Um, there's a lot, uh, a lot out there that folks are, you know, just

a little, little concerned about, but at the same time, like, you know,

it's one of those things where if you're not paying attention to it

and you're not adapting to it, um, you know, you will get left behind.

Um, and so, you know, it's, it's, it's gonna be interesting to see how it

impacts these different industries, but certainly, um, in the public sector,

um, How, how is it gonna be integrated?

Um, alright, so we're gonna, um, we're gonna flip here to, uh, another segment,

um, called The Five Second Scramble.

Uh, so this is gonna be just kind of, you know, quick hit rapid fire q and a.

Uh, you'll have five seconds to sum up, uh, your answers.

If, if it goes over five seconds, we're not gonna airhorn

you or anything like that.

So, um, feel free to answer as you will.

But, um, uh, let's, uh, let's jump into it, Greg.

So let's just begin with, you know, what is your favorite aspect about,

you know, working at, at ad Hoc?

Uh, for me personally, uh, you know, I, I, I am just really proud

of the, of the team that we have here.

It's, it's a, a pe a group of people who care, uh, and, uh, you know,

put their best foot forward every day and show up, uh, for their

teammates, uh, for our customers.

Um, and for the public that, you know, kind of by proxy, we, uh, we, we serve.

Um, so, uh, the people that work here are just awesome.

Uh, and that's, that's, uh, I think probably my favorite

part of the whole thing.

Cool.

I like how you use teammates.

I, I do the same thing.

Um, we don't really call people like employees.

It's more of like, uh, teammates.

Um, what, um, what aspect of your culture do you most fear losing with growth?

Um, that's a good question.

Uh, you know, I, for me, there's, there's lots of different

answers to that question.

I'll say one of the things that's challenging for me, uh, before this

company, I was a startup person and I worked in, you know, very

small teams and I still very much believe in the power of small teams.

Um, and, you know, we've grown to be, uh, uh, from my perspective,

what is a very sizable organization.

Uh, what's that headcount,

by the

way?

Uh, we're, we're probably around 575 people right now.

Um, So, yeah, I mean that, that, that's been a hard part for me is like, you

know, how do we, how do we have that kind of common shared sense of mm-hmm.

You know, mission and purpose, um, you know, as we get to be a bigger and

bigger company, um, bigger organization.

Um, and so, you know, I'm always looking for ways that we can kind of instill

that and bring people together, um, and, you know, find ways to, uh, strengthen

the bonds of us as, you know, kind of a community of people who are, are

working kind of, uh, maybe not on the same project, but sort of, uh, you

know, as a shared goal, uh, common goal.

What about your work keeps you up at night?

Uh, pretty much everything.

Uh, you know, I, I, uh, I worry a lot about, you know,

about pretty much everything.

Um, you know, it, it's, uh, it, it, we're a services business, right?

Mm-hmm.

So it's just, it's a constant grind.

Um, you know, you always have to be, uh, you know, on onto the next thing.

Uh, so, um, you know, I, I just, yeah, that's, that's, that's something that,

that always, uh, keeps me up is right, is like, um, wanna make sure that

we're, uh, we're, we're always growing.

Uh, you know, if we're not moving forward, we're moving backwards.

Um, and so, yeah, that, that's something I think I'll spend

a lot of time thinking about.

What trait do

you value most in your co-founder?

Um, Paul is probably one of the smartest people I know.

Um, you know, he's, he's a really, uh, I think deep thinker about things.

Um, you know, he's, uh, he, he's very thoughtful, um, and, uh, you know,

he's, he's just a really good partner.

Um, him and I, you know, we talk all the time.

Uh, and, um, you know, he is someone that I can always turn to,

to just, you know, talk, talk to about what it is that we're doing.

And, you know, uh, we, we have a, we're very aligned on, um, you know,

goals, values, and things like that.

And so he's, he's just a really good partner.

It's a fascinating, um, relationship, right?

I mean, it's, they say it's like a marriage.

You, you, uh, you build a, a pretty strong rapport with this person and,

you know, a lot of startups fail, uh, because offenders can't get along.

So it's always interesting to hear what traits, um, you know, you, you

all kind of play off on another.

Uh, what ki what kind of technologist, uh, thrives at ad hoc?

Uh, like I said earlier, I think it's people who, um, you know, both

really care about their craft, uh, and also want to see something make an impact.

Um, you know, I, I think, uh, that's, that's very important,

but also someone who has that sort of resiliency to understand

that these are big environments.

Um, you know, these are big, big ships and we're trying to, you

know, move them a little bit.

Um, so change takes a while.

So you, you do have to have that, uh, the patience, um, to see that

stuff take root and take hold.

What, what kind of roles does ad hoc hire for,

uh, roles?

Uh, so, uh, the majority of the people that work at ad

hoc are software engineers.

Uh, that's, that's definitely our, our biggest demographic.

Um, you know, we, we generally kind of put it into, uh, you know, four

buckets, which would be product management, um, ux uh, research, UX

design, um, and then engineering.

Uh, but we also have, you know, burgeoning practices around, uh, data,

uh, data science and data analytics.

Um, cybersecurity, uh, you know, content.

Um, there's probably more that I'm forgetting, uh,

for which, uh, I apologize.

But, um, you know, we're, we're focused on digital services, right?

Mm-hmm.

So how do we build those things?

Um, and so, you know, really any disciplines that fit in there, uh, you

know, uh, are areas that we're interested in, uh, you know, finding folks.

Nice.

Um, what, uh, what is a charity or a corporate philanthropy

that's near and dear to you?

Yeah, so, um, one thing which we, uh, we as we as an

organization have, uh, gotten behind is, uh, there's a, uh, there is an effort

to, uh, make a national park, uh, or a national recreation area, uh, uh, around

centered around the Chesapeake Bay.

Um, it's, you know, this amazing natural resource, um, and, uh, you know, uh, but

doesn't have any official designation.

And so, um, there's a group, uh, uh, Uh, called the Chesapeake Conservancy, which

is working on, uh, advocating for, uh, a national recreation area, uh, you know,

a, a part of the National Park system to be formed around the Chesapeake Bay.

Um, and it's really cool the way they're doing it.

I mean, there's such a diversity of history, uh, that that centers around

the bay and this area, you know, going back to like native communities, but

as well as like enslaved populations.

Um, and so they're, they're really conscious about making sure that.

Um, you know, not just the natural resources are protected and celebrated

and used, but these stories are told in their full breath, uh, so that we

get a full and accurate picture of the, you know, the Bay Area and the

history of the people that have, you know, how they've lived there and how

they've made their lives around it.

Um, so we've been supporting that effort.

Um, it's been really cool to see, uh, you know, that they've have

released, uh, they, they have helped advocate for, um, a Dr.

Draft legislation to actually put this into place.

Was, uh, uh, released I think last year.

Um, and it's making its way through the system.

Um, but that's really exciting.

That's one thing that, um, as an organization, um, It's something

I'm really excited about.

It helps me kind of, you know, I get to see a little bit of

the inside of, um, how, uh, that legislative advocacy process works.

Um, and I'm also, I'm, I'm a big, uh, outdoors person.

I love, uh, being outside.

Uh, and so, uh, you know, uh, national Parks is, is something I I,

I, my dream agency to work with, uh, have not had the opportunity yet.

Uh, but that would be, uh, that would be a, an amazing, so this is, this is,

uh, something we're doing, uh, in the meantime to help, uh, to help with that.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

We'll, we'll plug that in the, in the show notes, build a little

bit more, uh, awareness for it.

It sounds really neat.

Would kind of queue me up before a, a follow up question here.

Do you have a favorite national park?

Uh, that's a really tough one.

I, I would've to say it's, it's pretty much a tie, uh, for me

right now between Yosemite, which is just, uh, incredibly beautiful.

Uh, I, I, you know, the mountains and the valleys and you know, if you've

ever been there when the water falls are going at full speed, it's amazing.

Um, last year I actually had an opportunity to go to

Grand Teton National Park.

Um, which really kind of blew me away.

Um, I wanna spend more time there.

I was there for, uh, about four days.

Um, but, uh, really, really amazing place.

So tho those would be my top two right now.

Awesome.

Yeah.

We'll

have to spend some time offline talking

about, uh, some of this stuff.

My wife and I did, did six months cross country and, uh, hit up,

um, grand Teton National Party.

I felt like, you know, you could spend months in that place and still

just kind of scratch the surface.

It's huge.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, well this might've answered the next question.

Are you, would you rather vacation in, uh, in the mountains or at the beach?

I'm definitely a mountains person.

I can answer that one very.

That's the only five second answer I'll give you on this.

Perfect, uh, favorite app on your phone?

Favorite app on my phone?

That's a great question.

I mean, it's probably, I, I spend most of my time on, uh uh, I, well, I don't

know how to answer this question.

I, it's probably, I mean, I use it a lot for email work, that kind of thing.

Um, you know, if, if it's like, what am I doing to like, kind of

wind down or disconnect or something like that, uh, I will admit

that I got off all social media.

Um, but I am on Instagram.

Uh, there's, I've, I've kind of, you know, curated a nice mix of like, nature

birds, you know, that kind of stuff that, that, uh, that pops up on my homepage, so

I applaud you.

That's fantastic.

Um, trying to do the same, it's, it's tough.

It sucks you and gets its hooks in you, and then it's like, oh,

I, I need to get away from this.

Yeah.

Um, all trails is a cool app.

If, if you're, sounds like you're doing some hiking.

So, um, that's, that's probably one that I, I lean into more, more than not.

That's a good one.

Um, what is the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed?

Um,

Oh gosh.

Well, I have sworn that I will never wear a turtleneck again.

Uh, uh, growing up in the eighties and early nineties,

I had a lot of turtlenecks.

Um, this one I'm actually kind of proud of, but I probably will never do it again.

Uh, I don't know if, whatever, but I used to roll my jeans.

Um, you know, like, I don't know if that's, if that makes any sense

to anyone, but, uh, you know, I'll probably never do it again, but I

kind of liked it, so I'll admit.

I, I thought it looked good.

So did they call, used to call

that pegged?

Pegged, uh, your jeans, like where you roll the, the bottoms up?

Uh, I don't remember it being called that, but that it could be.

I, I think, I think I called, it rolled, like we'd rolled the jeans.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, turtlenecks, uh, we'll, we'll take, that's a strong answer.

Um, what do you love most about yourself?

I.

Um, uh, what do I love most about myself?

Um, I, I think that, uh, alright, that's, that's a,

that's a, that's a hard question.

Um,

uh, I think that, I think I, uh, like the fact that I am, uh, uh, someone

who seeks out, uh, challenge, uh, and, you know, likes to be challenged, um,

you know, and kind of pushes my, push myself to, uh, you know, to kind of learn

new things and, uh, you know, take on new, new, uh, new goals and objectives.

Nice.

Last one and we'll close on this, um, favorite, uh, Disney character.

Well that's, that's somewhat easier for me now because,

and I'm probably gonna regret and think of like sixth great

answers after I get off this call.

Um, star Wars has always been one of my favorites.

Um, so I can technically list basically any Star Wars character and get away

with like, that's a Disney whatever.

Um, so I'll go with Han Solo.

Uh, you know that that was, uh, I'm just a big Star Wars fan.

Yeah, yeah.

Disney's uh, just end ends it all these days, doesn't it?

So could go down some Marvel pass.

You can go down Star Wars.

So yeah, Han Solo will take it.

Well, good stuff.

Well, well, Greg, thanks for spending time with us.

You know, we're, we're excited about the, the future and, and the

work that you all are building, uh, the mission behind Ad Hoc.

It's, it's truly a space that needs continued attention and, uh, you

know, we're rooting for you all.

It's, uh, it's great to have you on the, on the podcast and,

uh, yeah, thanks for joining us.

Yeah, I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.