How We Hatched: Greg Gershman, CEO of Ad Hoc

Tim Winkler: 00:00:05

Welcome to the Pair program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad, and I'm your other host, Mike Gruen. Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth. Let's jump into it. Greg, thanks for joining us on the the Pair Program. Um, this is another bonus episode of a mini series that we call How We Hatched. So this will be a fun discussion. Uh, hear a little bit about your unique career journey, you know, where you came from and how you arrived at this current point in your seat today as a co-founder and c e o of ad hoc. Um, so we'll zigzag a little bit along the way. Um, but, uh, you know, some of the things that I'm, I'm excited to kind of draw on from this conversation, which is pretty front and center for us, uh, in our community is, you know, a lot around, you know, uh, how, you know, folks coming maybe from commercial technology backgrounds can innovate in the government space. Um, you know, obviously pretty relevant to what you all are doing. Um, but, um, first off, I always like to start by getting. To the foundation of, of who Greg Gershman is. So we usually kick off with the question, what did Greg Gershman have for breakfast this morning?

Greg Gershman: 00:01:33

Uh, that is a great question. Uh, for breakfast this morning, I don't think I officially had breakfast. Uh, I was traveling this morning. Um, but it was, I think it was basically a kind bar. Uh, so yeah,

Tim Winkler: 00:01:46

little leftovers from the hiking, uh, and the Smokies. Yeah. Yeah. Solid. Um, well, breakfast is important, but that is not how we typically start off. Uh, the conversation. We usually will say, you know, give us a little bit, um, give the listeners a little bit of a context on ad hoc, uh, and the, the problems that you're solving here.

Greg Gershman: 00:02:08

Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, yeah, and thanks for having me, uh, having me on. Um, Yeah. So, uh, for those, uh, not familiar ad hoc, so we're, uh, essentially like a digital services consultancy. Uh, we work with mostly federal, uh, but also some state and local, uh, government agencies to help them, uh, build, uh, online services, uh, to help them serve the public. Um, and, uh, you know, we, we got started, uh, back, uh, founded the company in 2014. Um, the big challenge that, uh, my partner, uh, Paul Smith and I saw, um, so prior to founding the company, um, I had been doing some work, uh, with the White House. I was in this program called the Presidential Innovation Fellowship Program. Um, and, uh, you may remember in, uh, I, I was doing that in 2012 and, uh, early 2013. You may remember in, uh, October of 2013, uh, there was this website called healthcare.gov that launched. Um, and so, you know, healthcare.gov was, uh, a very ambitious undertaking. Um, and really I think one of the first times in, in certainly, you know, very visible times where the government really hung like the entire success of a piece of, uh, a social program, uh, on the functioning of a website. Um, and, you know, actually look in the, the, the, you know, the law there, there is mention of that there will be an online mechanism for signing up. So it's a big part of the strategy of the, the Affordable Care Act was that they would have this website and that anybody would be able to go to it and sign up and get healthcare. Um, and, uh, you know, as you may remember, when it launched, it did not, uh, go very well. Uh, the website launched on, uh, October 1st. Um, I, uh, the number that I have seen, uh, you know, or kind of is the official numbers. Then on the first day, six people were able to sign up for healthcare. Um, and it's not that they were only six people who were interested. Uh, the website, uh, failed to, uh, you know, uh, stay up with all the traffic that was coming at it, uh, and made it very, very difficult for folks to, um, create accounts, log in, you know, fill out the 80 some questions that you needed to, uh, to answer about yourself in order to determine your eligibility for, uh, healthcare, whether it would be subsidized or not. Um, and then go through the process of selecting a plan. Um, only six people were able to get through that process. So, um, I was very fortunate at the time, you know, had, had, uh, been working in, uh, in and around the White House. Um, gotten to know a lot of folks there, uh, and, um, you know, was, was able to. Uh, you know, get involved with this effort, uh, to, to fix the website. Uh, you know, from my perspective, uh, as a software engineer, uh, it's a website. You know, I figured it was maybe some, you know, database tables needed to be optimized, something like that. Uh, but, uh, you know, when we got on the ground and, and you know, kind of put a team together of, of a couple people all, you know, technology backgrounds, uh, mostly software engineering backgrounds, uh, you know, what we saw was that the thing that had been built was really, uh, not the way we, uh, and all of us had experience, you know, building high traffic, um, websites, you know, that we're public facing, so like consumer internet kinds of things. Um, Not how we would've done it. You know, the technology involved was very different than the technology we would've selected. Um, the processes used were very different than how we would've organized or managed a project of that size and scope. Um, and the experience of the people, uh, working on it, um, was not necessarily, uh, you know, uh, you know, a hundred percent aligned with, you know, building this kind of site that millions of people needed to access at once. It needed to help navigate people through a very complex process. Um, you know, most people. You know, deal with healthcare through their employer. You know, there's a limited set of options, you know, not a whole lot to choose from. And so, you know, you kind of just pick A, B or C, something like that. This was, you know, tons of plans, all sorts of new terms for people that no one really understood. So it's a very complex process and, you know, just that was a thing that government had not really tried to do on that scale at that point. And what, so what we observed is that, you know, the experience of the, you know, in, within the government ecosystem, by which I mean, you know, the, the government, uh, itself, but also the vendors or contractors that government works with, which if you know, uh, you know, if, if you've ever had experience with government, you'll know that contracting is a big part of how government, um, gets stuff done. Uh, right. They, there's, there's kind of like a core of government employees, but then there's contractors who are employed, you know, to bring in special kinds of skills. Um, to help government fulfill its mission. Um, and, uh, you know, what we saw is like this, there was a big gap here in what the government had available to it, um, and what it was trying to achieve with a website like this. Um, and, and you know, we, we kind of looked at that from the perspective of what are people used to, you know, what do people experience in their everyday lives? In fact, if you go back and look at some of the press around the Affordable Care Act, um, the president at the time, Barack Obama, talked a lot about how, uh, he wanted there to sort of be like a kayak of healthcare, you know, something like that. Mm-hmm. A site that pretty much all of us were familiar with. I think Kayak is still relevant, right? It's sort of like a meta search for travel. Um, you know, but, you know, associated with like good user experience, good design, um, really streamlined functionality, you can get what you wanna get done really quickly. Um, that was a big, a big thing and that's what people expect from the services that they use online. Um, And so we just saw, we saw that there was a lot missing there. Um, and so we decided to start a company, uh, to, uh, to try and bring that, uh, you know, uh, in terms of experience, technology process, uh, you know, into government and see if there was, uh, you know, a market for it. Um, and so that's, that's how we got started. That's really, you know, the, the, um, the, the sort of, you know, our origin story, so to speak, cuz that's the problem that we observed. Um, and, you know, our, our solution was, you know, let's start a company and, and, you know, bring people who have the same kinds of experience that we had, uh, into the government space and see, uh, you know, if there's a, if there's a need, uh, for that. Nice.

Tim Winkler: 00:08:30

Yeah, it sounds like a right place, right time kind of situation. Um, you were right there when, when this, uh, situation arrived and, um, you know, you had kind of that background and I was curious, did you have a, a co-founder that, um, you know, you started AdHawk with? Or was it a solo, um, founding at that time?

Greg Gershman: 00:08:50

Yeah. Uh, so a gentleman by the name of Paul Smith, no relation to the, uh, the, the fashion company, uh, or any of the other, uh, that's a very common name. Uh, Paul. Yeah. Paul and I met the first day of the, what we call the healthcare.gov rescue effort. We met right outside the White House. Uh, ironically, we both, uh, had, uh, lived in Baltimore just a couple miles apart from each other. Um, For many years, um, but had never met. Um, and, uh, yeah, Paul and I got to know each other over the course of the couple months that we were working on, you know, fixing healthcare.gov. Um, and then, you know, uh, teamed up to, uh, to create an organization, create a company, um, to take it to the next level.

Tim Winkler: 00:09:31

So I like to, you know, backtrack a little bit here as well, you know, your, uh, kind of journey into the, the world of tech. Um, you know, let's, let's start there as well. You know, how did you, um, I guess get into technology? You know, was it something that, you know, kind of ran in the family or, um, tell me a little bit about that journey into the world of tech.

Greg Gershman: 00:09:51

Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I grew up in the, you know, the eighties and the early nineties, uh, in, uh, right outside, uh, DC and Montgomery County, Maryland. Uh, and, uh, you know, it was very fortunate that my parents, uh, got me a computer at a very young age. Uh, my first computer was a, uh, Commodore 1 28. Um, and, uh, you know, I, I just was always tinkering around playing with it, playing games, you know, um, experimenting with different things, you know, wrote a couple text-based games as a kid, you know, always kind of playing around with stuff. Um, and I, I think, you know, at some point, uh, you know, in, in high school, I think I, I really felt like this is, this is a path I want to go down. Um, I also have a very creative side to me. So, you know, I, I, I like to, um, sort of, you know, like create new things, um, you know, build things and I, I found that, you know, software, uh, was a, a good medium for me to be able to kind of express that. So it's, it's been something that I've always really. Had a, uh, had an interest in, um, when it came to, uh, college, um, I, uh, I did sign up to be a computer science major. Um, I will admit, at the time I didn't realize that it was essentially math, uh, which was my least favorite subject. Um, and so, uh, but I, I, I managed my way through a computer science degree, um, and, uh, you know, and, and then, uh, coming outta that, started working, uh, as a software engineer, uh, from the beginning, you know? Right, right outta college, basically.

Tim Winkler: 00:11:18

Yeah, I saw that. Was it, uh, Johns Hopkins applied Physics Lab. Is that where you started?

Greg Gershman: 00:11:24

Yeah, that was my first job at a college. The, the, uh, Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab. Um, great place. They do a lot of, uh, you know, applied research. Um, I got to work on. Uh, you know, some, uh, simulation systems for, you know, missiles and, you know, uh, kind of measuring like how the radar works. Um, built like a little weather system that goes on the back of Navy Cruisers. Um, stuff like that, which was, uh, you know, was pretty cool for, uh, for a, a young person to get, get the opportunity to work on things like that. Yeah, we're,

Tim Winkler: 00:11:56

they're doing some really interesting stuff. We actually have a couple of, uh, guests, uh, coming out of, uh, J H U A P L that are talking more on this topic around, you know, innovating in defense. Uh, and, and of course like all the work that they, they do with, uh, you know, defense research. It's, it's really fascinating and it seems like it's a, a great place to start a career in terms of, you know, giving, getting you some exposure to tinkering, you know, getting, getting you a little bit more of that flexibility. Um, but that was in a, was that a cleared environment? Was it, you know, um, you know, tell, tell, tell me about, uh, you know, your, your introduction into, you know, going into, I guess you would call that more of like the public sector type of support.

Greg Gershman: 00:12:36

Yeah. A p l is, is not what I would typically call, like public. I mean, it is public, it's, you know, it's, it's applied research. Um, although they, they do take your stuff and then throw it on a boat or something like that and tell you that now it's in production. Um, and we were not building it for that, uh, that kind of thing, but, Um, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I thought it was, it was a, it was a very cool place to work, you know, it was cleared, so I had a secret secret clearance, um, which is not too hard to, to, to get, from what I could tell, basically, if you haven't murdered any murdered anybody recently Right. You could get a, a secret clearance. Um, but, um, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, it, it was, it was interesting. I, I mean, I, it was, the timing for me was interesting. I started working there in 1999, which, uh, you know, was like right at the beginning of like the web. Mm-hmm. You know, kind of boom. Right? It's when, you know, pets.com and all this stuff was happening. And, um, you know, very quickly I was there for just about a year and I, I, I was really drawn towards, uh, you know, the, the commercial sector. Um, really wanted to see if I could, uh, you know, Get, you know, get a job at a company and, uh, you know, uh, work on some very cool public facing, you know, kinds of things, which, that was very new back then. Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I ended up switching over, I worked at a company called Ather Systems, which is up in, uh, uh, right outside Baltimore. Um, and, uh, was a great environment, you know, they had gone public before I joined, um, had a lot of money. I got to work in, uh, mobile application development before this was well before the iPhone, so we were building a lot of that stuff from scratch. There were no, uh, you know, uh, transmission protocols for mobile devices and things like that. So we had to do a lot of really cool, like lower level stuff, uh, but also got to work at like, the application level, and I got to do some r and d stuff there, which I thought was really cool. Um, it was a great environment for, for me as a young technologist working in a tech company. Um, you know, I was challenged. I had people that I, uh, was, that were mentoring me, um, that were, you know, helping me, guiding me, uh, and, and you know, really and lifting me up and, and. Um, I loved working there, even though the company really didn't make any money, um, or, or wasn't profitable. Um, and, you know, uh, was, was, uh, that, that was the only downside to it. But I, I loved working there. I, I got to do some really cool stuff and worked with some really smart people. Um, eventually got laid off from them in, in about 2003. Um, so this is, you know, after nine 11 and, you know, the tech stuff started to kind of crash. Um, and, uh, you know, I, I, I, at the time, uh, had, was recently married and had, uh, kids at, like two young kids at home. Mm-hmm. Um, and needed a job. So I took the first job I could find, which was working, um, for a large government contractor at a large government agency. Uh, I, I, I will, uh, you know, protect the, the innocent or, uh, not by, uh, not referencing them by name. Um, But, uh, you can find out more about them if you read various things. Um, but, uh, uh, you know, I, I was excited, honestly, was really excited. That was really my first experience, what I would call public sector work. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, again, like the, the stuff at a p l was, was, was very different. You know, kind of working in this, this academic almost environment. Um, this was really the first time where I was doing, you know, um, uh, uh, more of like a services role, um, you know, onsite with a customer, uh, building something for them. Um, and I was really excited about the mission of the agency that I was working for. You know, I was helping a lot of people and I thought that was really cool. Um, but, uh, unfortunately I just didn't feel the same kind of culture around technology in that environment. You know, it was very, very different than, um, you know, than, than what I had experienced working at a tech company. Um, you know, I really no principles around how they built software, how the company was organized, what processes they used, what technology they picked. Um, no mentoring, no. Anything like that. I mean, as far as I could tell, honestly, like my main job was to show up, uh, so that I could put the number of hours that I worked on my time sheet, um, and then bill that to the customer. Um, the rest of what was going on to me really just seemed like it wasn't, you know, wasn't the real important part of it. Um, and I, I honestly was really turned off by that. Um, I left there after 10 months. Um, and, you know, frankly just said to myself like, you know, if this is what government is like I, I, I'm, I'm really attracted to the mission and, and, you know, being able to work on things that have this kind of an impact. But I can't sacrifice at this stage in my career, you know, going into an environment like that and, and, you know, all the, you know, the detriments that would have to me in terms of my growth and my learning. Um, and just my satisfaction with what, you know, what I was gonna be. I knew, I knew kind of intuitively I would not grow into the technologist I wanted to be. Um, in that kind of an environment. So, um, I left, um, worked in the commercial space for, um, almost a decade. Um, did a couple startups, um, helped other people with startups. I did a lot of consulting. Um, and, uh, and then eventually found my way back into government. Um, uh, around 2010, uh, was actually trying to start a company. Uh, and, uh, someone I pitched, uh, uh, to invest and join the company, um, said, that's a bad idea. You shouldn't do that. Uh, instead you should come work with me on this. Uh, this, this thing we're building at the General Services Administration, uh, called search.gov. And, you know, you, you have, I, I had built one, one of the, my first startup had been a search engine company. I built a search engine for blogs. Um, so I, I learned a lot about how to build search engines. So he really wanted me to come work with him on that. Um, and I did, and I was, uh, blown away. I, I thought all government programs were gonna be like this, you know, this experience I'd had when I was younger. Um, and this was completely different. Um, it was very small, very agile, very much like working in a startup. Um, you know, using, uh, Ruby on Rails, um, uh, elastic search, um, uh, you know, pushing to production multiple times a day, agile development. Um, it just, it really, I was really excited. I was learning a ton. Um, I was, you know, even at that point, you know, 10, 12 years into my career, um, learning new things, really excited about the work I was doing, and I had that impact that I had always, you know, kind of liked about government. Um, and so that's when I really started to think like, okay, I, I really want to, you know, understand more about how we can make more of government like this, because mm-hmm. I saw the power of that, that model. Uh, and, and the fact that, you know, Technologists like myself could be attracted to something like that and saw that like there's something there. So that's really kind of when I, um, I think really got intrigued by the public sector. Um, and, and kind of all the pieces kind of came together for me from my past experience to say like, here's how we could make this work.

Tim Winkler: 00:19:34

Yeah, it's a fascinating journey because, um, you know, one, you're, you're seeing, you know, how technology is, is built in different, uh, ecosystems or different environments, right? Um, you know, folks that are from the DC area, you know, they'll, they'll be privy to, you know, some of these large government contractors that are out there. I, I worked for one for two years after starting my first business, um, you know, out in, in Indonesia, uh, came back and just felt like I was so confined, uh, to, you know, not really being able to innovate. I felt like it was. And it's, and it's not like this is how all of them are, but, um, for the most part, you know, we, we made a conscious decision to pivot into commercial startups, um, instead of solely kind of supporting in the government contracting space, which is, it's really in your face if you're in this area. It's, it's, it's tough to kind of navigate through the noise of like, who's doing government contracting and who's maybe building a product or, or doing, you know, commercial consulting. So it was, it's, it's a very different environment and if you've never worked in it before, um, you know, it's tough to kind of wrap your head around like, what we're, what we're describing here. So I was hoping to be able to, you know, use this conversation as a, as a platform to paint. That picture that there is opportunity in, in those, uh, supporting the government, but you know, you're doing it in a, in a different fashion here. It's almost like you took what you loved about, you know, being nimble, agile, working in commercial startup environments and trying to inject some of this into how, you know, uh, p parts of the public sector build. Um, and I think, um, you know, those are the things that, you know, so one of the, one of the questions I had teed up to, to ask you is, you know, with ad hoc specifically, right? When you're hiring up, you know, software engineers, you know, what is it that you're kind of looking for to, you know, in, in a technologist, uh, if you will, that you feel will be able to kind of. Apply and, and, and work with a, with a government customer, right? Because you, you've kind of seen both sides of it, right? So when you're hiring, for example, are you looking for folks that have seen both sides or are you looking for a mold of, of an individual that, you know, you just feel like they'll be, be able to adapt?

Greg Gershman: 00:21:54

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I, yeah, I wouldn't say that I, I, I tend to look more at, um, you know, look for more like, kind of inherent characteristics than necessarily like experience. I mean, you know, you can have worked in government and it could have been a, you know, one kind of experience like you said. I mean, it varies a lot, you know, agency to agency even, you know, within an agency program to program. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, project to project is very different. Um, but, you know, we look for people who, um, you know, number one, um, are really passionate about what they do, right. Care a lot about technology. Um, that's something that, you know, uh, for me it was always a big deal. Like I, you know, as a software engineer, I was very opinionated. Um, you know, and, and I still, uh, you know, if I talk to any of our teams working on things, um, you know, one of the questions I'll ask them is like, what's your code coverage? You know, what's your code test coverage? Um, uh, you know, like looking for people who, you know, they don't necessarily have to agree with what, uh, what, what my opinions are about software development or design, or ux or product management or something like that. But we do look for people who are, are passionate about that kind of stuff, right? Mm-hmm. And, and, and really think deeply about it and care about it. Um, you know, we, uh, we like to use the phrase strong opinions loosely held, right? You know, you should. You should have an opinion on something, but you should also be open to being convinced otherwise, uh, through, you know, through some kind of discourse or, or something like that. Um, so that's number one. That's something we look for. Uh, number two, we, we do look for people who, uh, wanna see the impact of what it is that they're, uh, that they're mm-hmm. Uh, you know, that they're working on. Um, cause that's a big thing, you know, government can be for, uh, you know, a lot of good work. But, um, you know, I think it's, it's important to understand that like it's public money, uh, you know, if, if you know, if you understand or at least you know, the, the democratic process, you know, we, we elect people who make laws. Who determine like the things that, you know, we're gonna spend our money on collectively as a, as a country, um, as a community, as a society. Um, and, you know, so that's, there's a level of trust that's, that's given to that. And so we do like to look for people who are interested in that, right? Like, they take that responsibility that they're being given, uh, very seriously and they're, they're eager to take that skill that they have, that thing that they're passionate about, and apply it in a way where they can see that impact, uh, very clearly. So that's another thing, um, you know, that we're looking, that we're looking for. Um, those, those are probably the two primary things. You know, obviously we're, we are looking at skills. So, you know, one of the things we started early on was a homework based process, um, for technical talent. Um, so, you know, actually before we even interviewed you in person, um, we would have you complete a homework. Do a little programming challenge, um, send that in, we'd review it. Um, we built a system where it was reviewed anonymously, so we wouldn't see anything about you. We wouldn't see your resume, we wouldn't see your name. Um, we wouldn't see how many years of experience you had. We had people coming through there with 10, 12 years of experience who would do a tear, terrible job. And then we'd have people coming in there through with like, who just got out of a coding bootcamp, who would ace it, you know, would do an amazing job. And so, like we were, we were very open about that. But just looking at, you know, how do you solve problems? How do you think through a challenge? Can you, you know, can you explain that to us? Um, is a big thing that we look for. Um, you know, and to some extent we also assess like, you know, um, Uh, we have a, we have a really strong culture around collaboration. You know, we, we refer to the, the company as a team. Um, you know, so there's, there's a big element of support. Um, we're looking for people who, you know, that we would wanna work with. Uh, we, we really believe that, you know, the work environment needs to be one where, uh, you know, people are free to be themselves, um, you know, express themselves, uh, do their best work when they can feel, uh, you know, that they can be open and honest and things like that. Um, the, you know, those, those kinds of things are, are very important. So we're, you know, we're, we are evaluating a little bit along those lines as well. Um, and then finally, you know, the last thing, there does have to be a little bit of resilience. Uh, I love government. You know, I've devoted the bulk of my career to it. Um, maybe not the bulk at this point, but a significant part of my career mm-hmm. Um, to government at this point. Um, but it can be challenging, right? And, and it's the kind of thing that, um, There, there are gonna be days that are not gonna be fun. You know, you're, you're, you're here to write software and you're gonna be doing something completely different. Um, but that's what has to be done in order to, you know, get the, get the thing that you're working on over the finish line or to the next stage. Um, and so, you know, the thing I always talk to people about is like, if you in your head can think about what's the impact that I'm making and what's the benefit, the positive benefit of that, hopefully for you, that outweighs the negative of any of the, you know, bureaucracy or things like that you have to go through. You can't use this tool that you're very, you know, comfortable with or you can't do a certain thing because, you know, policy says or something like that, or that's not how we're gonna do it. Um, those things, you know, you have to, everybody has to know like what that balance is for themselves. Um, so we do try and figure out like, is is the, you know, is this person gonna be able to. You know, to to, to, you know, be resilient in that kind of an environment, uh, and, and that kind of thing. So that's just kind of a rough thing of what we look for. Um, but uh, yeah, in the, in the early days, almost all the people that we hired did not have government experience. Mm-hmm. Which was really, I think, you know, in a lot of situations, um, what we were looking for. And also, uh, just the fact that like a lot of the way things were done in the private sector, in the commercial world, commercial tech, uh, consumer tech was just very different than how government was doing it lot. Mm-hmm. Technologies in the processes and, you know, just not a lot of overlap.

Tim Winkler: 00:27:30

Do you find like there's, um, ever kickback or back in the day, was there kickback of, of trying to bring, you know, commercial into these environments? Or did they then think that maybe it would adapt well or, you know, what, what was, what was like the, um, biggest challenges of, of really building the trust with, with this type of a customer?

Greg Gershman: 00:27:50

Yeah, I mean, I, we were very fortunate when we started the company. We had sort of like trust, uh, you know, kind of built in. We, you know, started working with both, uh, the centers for Medicare, Medicaid services and, uh, the Department of Veteran Affairs. Um, mostly because we had really trusted relationships. People that were bought into, you know, how we were gonna do it, right? They, we were, you know, we are big proponents of agile development. Uh, we were big, we are big proponents of cloud infrastructure and, you know, now it's very common to find, you know, what I will call real cloud. Um, in, in, you know, circa 2014, there were a lot of different options for cloud floating around, many of which did not really, they weren't really cloud, they were just essentially just like a virtual, uh, virtual instances. Um, and so, you know, like there were things that we, we valued, you know, pretty significantly. Um, and, and we started out in, um, you know, with customers, uh, that, that. Either they, they embraced that as well, or they were very interested in learning and ex, you know, learning more and experimenting. Uh, with it, with us, we were the first ones to use, uh, Amazon Web Services, uh, you know, uh, at, at both of the agencies where we started, VA and cms, um, you know, uh, first ones to do agile development, human-centered design, product management later. Um, so, um, you know, that part I, I would say was relatively easy. Um, as we've expanded into other parts of government, especially into places where, you know, that's not necessarily the case where we, you know, didn't have that, you know, kind of pre-established trust and relationship when we started the company, um, it's a lot harder, right? Yeah. Like, it really is, um, a, a lot of what it comes down to is, you know, how do people think about technology and, you know, in the government, the person who's buying that, you know, if they're contracting it, um, You know, there's, I I, the line I say is there's no objective truth in government contracting, right? It's not like, you know, they put out a thing saying, we need a new website that, you know, people can sign up for this new benefit. And, you know, they're gonna evaluate that and they're gonna be able to tell, you know, oh, this proposal is objectively better than this proposal because they chose to use this and like, without any preconceived notions whatsoever, right? Mm-hmm. The person who, or the people who are evaluating those proposals, they have a certain idea about what it is that they wanna buy. Um, you know, they have a picture of technology, uh, you know, what works and what doesn't work and what they want. And, you know, the, the, the, the person or the company that bids closest to that and is most aligned with that is the one that's gonna win that contract and, and build that system. Um, so that's a, that's a big challenge. I mean, you know, even, we're almost, we've been doing ad hoc now for nine years, um, and we still find, you know, the, the bulk of the market that's out there, especially now that we're a large business and having to compete more broadly. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, it's not, uh, you know, the way that, uh, a hundred percent aligned with how we think about technology. Mm-hmm. Um, and that is challenging. Uh, you know, uh, it, it, it, it, it's, you know, maybe one of the toughest challenges that we have right now as, uh, as a business at the stage that we're at.

Tim Winkler: 00:30:56

Yeah. There's a, um, there's a, a slogan and, and, uh, that's been thrown around in, in a, in a book that was, uh, written called Hack the, the Bureaucracy. Um, what does that mean? What does that mean to you? Uh, and, and, and how would you explain that in terms of like how ad hoc is, is trying to, to innovate?

Greg Gershman: 00:31:15

Yeah. Uh, so that book, uh, written by, uh, marina Nitze, who, uh, was a good friend of mine, um, uh, we worked together at the White House and, uh, she actually was the chief technology officer at the va, uh, when we started the company. Um, and so she was actually, uh, one of our first customers as well. Um, uh, I, I think what Marina's talking about in that regard, and, you know, I had a little bit of experience with this when I was a presidential innovation fellow. Um, when you're inside government, It's, it, it's very hard to get things done. Um, mm-hmm. And, you know, I, I don't have a lot of experience in big corporate environments. Um, so I'm, I'm a little bit hypothesizing about what that's like. Um, but you know, you're in a big organization, there's ways to navigate it. Um, government's very different than any of that. And so I think what Marina and Nick do in that book, um, is kind of share their experiences for, you know, when you're faced with, you know, an organization that, you know, large, uh, unwieldy, does lots of different things, um, you know, maybe has a certain element of dysfunction to it, you know, from an operational standpoint. Um, you know, mostly made up of very well-intentioned, um, very dedicated, um, you know, people who want to be there and to make a difference. Um, they have different advice, you know, various, you know, kinds of advice on how do you navigate that. What are some tools that you have in your toolbox? To, you know, build relationships, get stuff done, um, you know, kind of build rapport, all those kinds of things. So, yeah, and I, you know, I, I had the, that book was really fun for me to read because, um, we were, uh, I, I, I kind of know my strengths and weaknesses, um, and uh, you know, I like building stuff. Uh, and, um, marina and I were really good partners when we were working in the White House, cuz Marina liked hacking the bureaucracy and I liked building stuff. Um, and I got a sense after, you know, being in government for a little while, um, that there was gonna be more building stuff going on on the contractor side. Um, plus I had my experience with healthcare.gov where I saw that there were, like, there was a big gap in what, where the contractors were. Um, and so that's kind of where I gravitated, you know, I felt like that's where my skill sets were best, uh, you know, best kind of suited, um, But absolutely, I mean, there's a huge need for people inside government, um, who have a vision for something. You know, whether that's, uh, a, you know, an increase, uh, a a different kind of experience for people, uh, different kind of organization, um, you know, increased capability or capacity in terms of talent or people. Um, that kind of stuff is super, super important. Um, and as a big part of, you know, uh, what, uh, what I would say is, you know, really the last 10 years, 10, 10, 11 years of, you know, this effort to kind of bring more modern technology into government. Um, yeah. So it's great book. I highly

Tim Winkler: 00:34:03

recommend it. Yeah, it's on my, it's on my reading list. Um, it's, it's super relevant to a lot of the content that we're putting out right now on, on our community. Um, and, you know, we don't have to get into this right now, but you know, you're. You can look at this too, around, you know, it gets really different from like federal, you know, agencies to Department of Defense, you know, might be a, a very different way of how, you know, if you look at them as like customers almost, right? It's like, you know, h how are, how am I going to be able to, you know, to, to get. Uh, my point across like how, you know, how, how will I, will I be able to get a common ground with this type of personality versus somebody in this other agency? Um, so it's just, um, you know, it's a, it's a huge space, you know, so trying to get real granular in it and break it down from, you know, different, you know, almost like sub-agencies within, within the government is what we're trying to do. And, and see if we can see some trends or just, you know, help educate. Because, you know, one of the reasons that we decided to, you know, make a bit of a push for this type of, um, media, some of these upcoming episodes on the podcast was, you know, we primarily, you know, work with commercial technologists that are coming from startup environments. Um, it's no secret that, you know, the, the commercial startup space has gone through a, a, a tough. Period right now with, um, with, with the state of the economy. Uh, and so with that, you know, a lot of these folks are turning to, you know, uh, industries that are maybe a little bit more stable. Um, and, you know, there's a, there's a level of stability here. If you think about. Supporting the government. Um, and so trying to help them, you know, navigate those waters and, and how they would, you know, twofold one, you know, pursue an opportunity, uh, as, as a technologist, um, or two, you know, building something, uh, uh, their own startup and how they want to partner or, or, you know, sell to the government. You know, these are things where you really have to kind of put your yourself in the shoes of these folks and try to understand how to, you know, how to best position, um, yourself to, uh, to, to, to win an opportunity or to, uh, land a, a job. Um, and so I think this is all helpful stuff. Um, you know, one, I think it was something I was researching from, uh, you know, uh, an article that you had written or, or a conference that you had spoken to about, um, you know, product management really isn't a term that gets used to. Too, too much in, in the government space, a lot of project management's always historically been a pretty common term. What, why is it, do you think, like product management should be maybe a, a term that's more so, um, uh, adapted to in, in the public sector?

Greg Gershman: 00:36:46

Yeah, that, that's a great question. That is one of, uh, one of our, I I'd say like, you know, kind of core founding tenants is to think about things in terms of products and not projects. Um, uh, I, I think that goes back to, uh, you know, how we've built things in the past, um, you know, and, and things in the past. You know, the, the old adage of like, uh, measure twice and cut once, right? Mm-hmm. You wanna make sure you've got everything right before you do something that can't be undone. Um, and that's very true. If you look back historically, like if you build a building, um, it takes a long time. It's very expensive, and it's very hard to change once you've done it. Um, anyone has, if you've ever done home renovations, especially while you're living in the home, it's a very miserable experience. Right. And, and, you know, even more so for like a big building, um, you know, or things like aircraft carriers or, you know, airplanes or something like that. You know, you, you wanna, you wanna get it as right as you can. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, you wanna invest that time upfront in making sure it's designed properly, anticipate all the challenges, and then build it and use it for as long as you possibly can. Um, that's, that's how we've, you know, we've done things for a long time. Um, the thing about software, which I think, you know, we discovered, um, sometime probably in like the late nineties, early two thousands, but really didn't kick in. You know, in, in, in most places till a little bit later, um, is that you actually had a lot of flexibility. And some of it has to do with how we built software and some of the tools that are available. Um, but especially once the web, you know, kind of came about and, you know, things just started moving really, really fast. Um, you know, and so like development practices and everything had to keep up with the, the ability to change so frequently, um, you know, respond to, you know, new information or new like kinds of inputs. Um, and also get like instant getting instant feedback from people using your things. We had to find ways to, to build things that kind of incorporated that in. Um, and what we found is with software, you actually can change things around pretty significantly. Um, for relatively low cost, certainly not the same as like remodeling a house or, you know, deciding that after I built this big office building, I need to move the bathrooms to the other side of the, you know, whatever, right? Um, software you can do, you can do that stuff for relatively, uh, le you know, less expense. Um, and so, uh, you know, and, and, and then once you start to build in, uh, you know, the fact that, uh, you know, you have something that's out there, it gets used, you observe people using it, um, then you learn from that and you wanna put another iteration out, right? So all the, the, the advancements in technology and software led to a much different way of thinking about how do we put something out, you know, how, how do we build and how do we manage something, um, that's out there? Um, and you know, that that is how, you know, the product, product management, product development kind of philosophy, uh, became very common in the startup world. So, you know, things like, um, you know, lean product or mm-hmm. You know, those kinds of things became very popular. Um, but it's, I think the recognition that when you have something, a piece of technology, it's not a static thing. Um, as much as, you know, we would like to think it is. Um, right? You build the building, you live in it for 50 years or whatever it is, and then, you know, you sell it to the next person or you, you know, Whatever it ceases to be useful and you knock it down, um, uh, technology's different, right? And it, it affords us the ability to, to iterate on something, improve it incrementally adapt to new information. Um, and that's the kind of thing that, you know, we like to kind of center our methodology around. And so, um, and, and that's really critical, right? You, you know, you put out a piece of technology, um, and, uh, you know, it's current as of the day that it's launched, people use it. They're giving you feedback. You have to adapt it and change it. Um, and even if they're not giving you feedback, people's expectations change over time. Mm-hmm. Um, and you have to keep up with that or you will be left behind. Um, a great example that I like to use about that is when I first started working in government in 2010, 2011, 2012, Um, you know, mobile apps were just kind of getting started, you know, kind of getting traction, but, you know, most of the time you went to a website if you had to do anything. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, you know, our, our sort of like policy in the government was, we felt like it's best to tell people don't build mobile apps. It's very expensive, you know, it's, it's a whole separate kind of development thing. Uh, you know, just build websites that are mobile responsive. So, you know, something that's very, it'll work just as well in a mobile browser as it will on a desktop browser. Um, and I think that was the right call in, like, you know, circa 2013, 2012, something like that. Um, you look at it now and there is no major service provider that any of us use on a day-to-day basis, or even like on a monthly basis, um, that doesn't have an app on your phone. Mm-hmm. Right? Because apps have the, the phone has become the main way that we all access, you know, stuff online. Um, Everybody's built their apps, you know, whether it's you're taking a picture of your checks to deposit them in your bank. Mm-hmm. Um, you're booking a hotel room, you're booking a flight. We all do this on our phones now and we all use the apps. That's how we think about it. And so for a government agency to provide a service and not offer it through an app, starts to feel like they're not meeting the needs. They're not keeping up to date with what people's expectations are. Mm-hmm. Um, and so whereas 10 years ago, I wouldn't have said, you absolutely have to have a mobile app strategy. Now, when I talk to people, it's one of the first things that I'll tell them. It's like, this is what people expect, you know, this is what they're expecting. And, um, one of the projects we've done for, uh, the Department of Veteran Affairs has been very successful, um, has been building a mobile app where we took a look at what do veterans need on the phone, you know, when they, when they actually pick up the phone and they have that persistent. Apps sitting on their, uh, on their phone, what are the things that would be most valuable to them and building specifically to that. Um, and that's been a really big success. Um mm-hmm. And I think it's really a testament to this, you know, this idea of product management, right? Is that like you have to continually be evaluating how you're serving people, you know, the thing, your product that's out there and isn't meeting their needs, and is there something else that you could be providing, um, that would all that, you know, would, that meet, that would meet their needs better, uh, than what you have out there? Which is really a question that, you know, especially in government, is not something that they traditionally have asked very well. Right? Put a law in place, you implement it and that's it, right? Mm-hmm. They haven't thought about the technology as, you know, something that evolves, something that needs to change on a frequent basis. Um, and I think that's the product mentality really helps you do that. Yeah, the, the user

Tim Winkler: 00:43:21

experience, right? The, the user research of, you know, what is it that these folks really, truly want? Um, and really polling the users, uh, you know, hu human-centered design, like really understanding how is it gonna make their lives easier or, or simplify things. Um, I love the, I love your example about, about how apps have just, you know, they, I mean, if, if you're not building an app, then, you know, it's, it's, it's tough to, uh, to have everybody just go to the website and figure it out from there. Like, give me that simplicity of just open up the app and everything's front and center. Um, so true. Um, well, we, you know, we only have a couple of minutes left, uh, for this segment. So, I guess I'll just kinda wrap with, um, you know, what are, what are some of those things that, you know, looking at, um, you know, 2023 at ad hoc, you know, what are some of these things that, you know, we can expect, uh, from an innovation perspective, uh, some of the tech technologies, some of those skill sets that you're, you're foreseeing gonna be in high demand this year?

Greg Gershman: 00:44:23

Um, well, I, you know, I think in, in the government space, I think there's still, uh, a tremendous amount of progress to be made. Uh, you know, just in terms of, again, like centering everything that we build around, uh, you know, uh, Always good to have an intuition and kind of, you know, trust your gut, but also to, you know, provide some research and, and, you know, do that human-centered design. Mm-hmm. Um, I, you know, I think that we're seeing an increased adoption of those kinds of practices in government. Um, you know, th this, this administration came out with a, the customer experience executive order, um, which has really helped government kind of center their attention around what are the things that we're building, you know, what, what are the experiences that we're trying to provide and not, you know, focus it as much around the agencies or the specific programs. Um, and I think that's been really helpful in just kind of shifting everyone's mindset, um, you know, to, uh, you know, to that kind of a thing. Um, so I, I, you know, to me that's something that I just see growing more and more, um, every year, you know, more agencies adopting, uh, adopting that, moving into those kinds of practices. Um, and, uh, and you know, and this administration, I think has been really key in, in, you know, kind of pushing that. Um, so that's been good. Um, the other thing that I would just say, I mean, it, you know, sounds kind of, uh, ish and whatever, but I will say, I mean, you know, if you go back and look at stuff I post online, I was very, uh, uh, not a big believer in web three, uh, and crypto. Um, and I'd like to say I think I was proven, uh, myself and many others who said it was not really gonna amount to much, uh, proven. Proven correct. Um, but I do think that ai, uh, and the stuff that's going on now with mm-hmm uh, large language models is really something that's gonna change the game quite substantially. Um, we're, you know, thinking a lot about that and how it's gonna impact everything from like, the services that we offer our customers. We actually have, um, done some very, uh, experimental kinds of things with, it's already, with some customers that have been, I think a success. Um, but, um, but also, um, you know, uh, how it's gonna ex change the experience for the developer. Um, you know, or for the, the researcher or for the product manager, um, how that's gonna change, what it is that they do, the skills that they have, um, the tools that they have available and what that's all gonna look like. I mean, it's, it's moving so fast, faster than anything I've ever seen. Yeah. Uh, you know, in my, you know, uh, how many years have I been doing this? Uh, a while, uh, 20 some years. Uh, and, uh, you know, I, I think that's really gonna have a huge impact. Uh, and, and, you know, uh, That is one that I think, uh, I, I, everybody needs to be paying attention to that, uh, really gonna, uh, uh, I think really change things quite substantially. Yeah,

Tim Winkler: 00:47:04

it's, it's an interesting, uh, topic. Um, you know, we were just kind of pulling our team earlier about, uh, you know, ai, you know, is it something that you think, you know, you're very excited about how it's going to change the future? Does it make you terrified? Um, there's a lot, uh, a lot out there that folks are, you know, just a little, little concerned about, but at the same time, like, you know, it's one of those things where if you're not paying attention to it and you're not adapting to it, um, you know, you will get left behind. Um, and so, you know, it's, it's, it's gonna be interesting to see how it impacts these different industries, but certainly, um, in the public sector, um, How, how is it gonna be integrated? Um, alright, so we're gonna, um, we're gonna flip here to, uh, another segment, um, called The Five Second Scramble. Uh, so this is gonna be just kind of, you know, quick hit rapid fire q and a. Uh, you'll have five seconds to sum up, uh, your answers. If, if it goes over five seconds, we're not gonna airhorn you or anything like that. So, um, feel free to answer as you will. But, um, uh, let's, uh, let's jump into it, Greg. So let's just begin with, you know, what is your favorite aspect about, you know, working at, at ad Hoc?

Greg Gershman: 00:48:18

Uh, for me personally, uh, you know, I, I, I am just really proud of the, of the team that we have here. It's, it's a, a pe a group of people who care, uh, and, uh, you know, put their best foot forward every day and show up, uh, for their teammates, uh, for our customers. Um, and for the public that, you know, kind of by proxy, we, uh, we, we serve. Um, so, uh, the people that work here are just awesome. Uh, and that's, that's, uh, I think probably my favorite part of the whole thing.

Tim Winkler: 00:48:46

Cool. I like how you use teammates. I, I do the same thing. Um, we don't really call people like employees. It's more of like, uh, teammates. Um, what, um, what aspect of your culture do you most fear losing with growth?

Greg Gershman: 00:49:02

Um, that's a good question. Uh, you know, I, for me, there's, there's lots of different answers to that question. I'll say one of the things that's challenging for me, uh, before this company, I was a startup person and I worked in, you know, very small teams and I still very much believe in the power of small teams. Um, and, you know, we've grown to be, uh, uh, from my perspective, what is a very sizable organization. Uh, what's that headcount,

Tim Winkler: 00:49:28

by the

Greg Gershman: 00:49:28

way? Uh, we're, we're probably around 575 people right now. Um, So, yeah, I mean that, that, that's been a hard part for me is like, you know, how do we, how do we have that kind of common shared sense of mm-hmm. You know, mission and purpose, um, you know, as we get to be a bigger and bigger company, um, bigger organization. Um, and so, you know, I'm always looking for ways that we can kind of instill that and bring people together, um, and, you know, find ways to, uh, strengthen the bonds of us as, you know, kind of a community of people who are, are working kind of, uh, maybe not on the same project, but sort of, uh, you know, as a shared goal, uh, common goal.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:06

What about your work keeps you up at night?

Greg Gershman: 00:50:10

Uh, pretty much everything. Uh, you know, I, I, uh, I worry a lot about, you know, about pretty much everything. Um, you know, it, it's, uh, it, it, we're a services business, right? Mm-hmm. So it's just, it's a constant grind. Um, you know, you always have to be, uh, you know, on onto the next thing. Uh, so, um, you know, I, I just, yeah, that's, that's, that's something that, that always, uh, keeps me up is right, is like, um, wanna make sure that we're, uh, we're, we're always growing. Uh, you know, if we're not moving forward, we're moving backwards. Um, and so, yeah, that, that's something I think I'll spend a lot of time thinking about. What trait do

Tim Winkler: 00:50:44

you value most in your co-founder?

Greg Gershman: 00:50:49

Um, Paul is probably one of the smartest people I know. Um, you know, he's, he's a really, uh, I think deep thinker about things. Um, you know, he's, uh, he, he's very thoughtful, um, and, uh, you know, he's, he's just a really good partner. Um, him and I, you know, we talk all the time. Uh, and, um, you know, he is someone that I can always turn to, to just, you know, talk, talk to about what it is that we're doing. And, you know, uh, we, we have a, we're very aligned on, um, you know, goals, values, and things like that. And so he's, he's just a really good partner.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:23

It's a fascinating, um, relationship, right? I mean, it's, they say it's like a marriage. You, you, uh, you build a, a pretty strong rapport with this person and, you know, a lot of startups fail, uh, because offenders can't get along. So it's always interesting to hear what traits, um, you know, you, you all kind of play off on another. Uh, what ki what kind of technologist, uh, thrives at ad hoc?

Greg Gershman: 00:51:47

Uh, like I said earlier, I think it's people who, um, you know, both really care about their craft, uh, and also want to see something make an impact. Um, you know, I, I think, uh, that's, that's very important, but also someone who has that sort of resiliency to understand that these are big environments. Um, you know, these are big, big ships and we're trying to, you know, move them a little bit. Um, so change takes a while. So you, you do have to have that, uh, the patience, um, to see that stuff take root and take hold.

Tim Winkler: 00:52:16

What, what kind of roles does ad hoc hire for,

Greg Gershman: 00:52:20

uh, roles? Uh, so, uh, the majority of the people that work at ad hoc are software engineers. Uh, that's, that's definitely our, our biggest demographic. Um, you know, we, we generally kind of put it into, uh, you know, four buckets, which would be product management, um, ux uh, research, UX design, um, and then engineering. Uh, but we also have, you know, burgeoning practices around, uh, data, uh, data science and data analytics. Um, cybersecurity, uh, you know, content. Um, there's probably more that I'm forgetting, uh, for which, uh, I apologize. But, um, you know, we're, we're focused on digital services, right? Mm-hmm. So how do we build those things? Um, and so, you know, really any disciplines that fit in there, uh, you know, uh, are areas that we're interested in, uh, you know, finding folks.

Tim Winkler: 00:53:07

Nice. Um, what, uh, what is a charity or a corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Greg Gershman: 00:53:14

Yeah, so, um, one thing which we, uh, we as we as an organization have, uh, gotten behind is, uh, there's a, uh, there is an effort to, uh, make a national park, uh, or a national recreation area, uh, uh, around centered around the Chesapeake Bay. Um, it's, you know, this amazing natural resource, um, and, uh, you know, uh, but doesn't have any official designation. And so, um, there's a group, uh, uh, Uh, called the Chesapeake Conservancy, which is working on, uh, advocating for, uh, a national recreation area, uh, you know, a, a part of the National Park system to be formed around the Chesapeake Bay. Um, and it's really cool the way they're doing it. I mean, there's such a diversity of history, uh, that that centers around the bay and this area, you know, going back to like native communities, but as well as like enslaved populations. Um, and so they're, they're really conscious about making sure that. Um, you know, not just the natural resources are protected and celebrated and used, but these stories are told in their full breath, uh, so that we get a full and accurate picture of the, you know, the Bay Area and the history of the people that have, you know, how they've lived there and how they've made their lives around it. Um, so we've been supporting that effort. Um, it's been really cool to see, uh, you know, that they've have released, uh, they, they have helped advocate for, um, a Dr. Draft legislation to actually put this into place. Was, uh, uh, released I think last year. Um, and it's making its way through the system. Um, but that's really exciting. That's one thing that, um, as an organization, um, It's something I'm really excited about. It helps me kind of, you know, I get to see a little bit of the inside of, um, how, uh, that legislative advocacy process works. Um, and I'm also, I'm, I'm a big, uh, outdoors person. I love, uh, being outside. Uh, and so, uh, you know, uh, national Parks is, is something I I, I, my dream agency to work with, uh, have not had the opportunity yet. Uh, but that would be, uh, that would be a, an amazing, so this is, this is, uh, something we're doing, uh, in the meantime to help, uh, to help with that.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:20

That's awesome. Yeah. We'll, we'll plug that in the, in the show notes, build a little bit more, uh, awareness for it. It sounds really neat. Would kind of queue me up before a, a follow up question here. Do you have a favorite national park?

Greg Gershman: 00:55:32

Uh, that's a really tough one. I, I would've to say it's, it's pretty much a tie, uh, for me right now between Yosemite, which is just, uh, incredibly beautiful. Uh, I, I, you know, the mountains and the valleys and you know, if you've ever been there when the water falls are going at full speed, it's amazing. Um, last year I actually had an opportunity to go to Grand Teton National Park. Um, which really kind of blew me away. Um, I wanna spend more time there. I was there for, uh, about four days. Um, but, uh, really, really amazing place. So tho those would be my top two right now. Awesome. Yeah. We'll

Tim Winkler: 00:56:03

have to spend some time offline talking about, uh, some of this stuff. My wife and I did, did six months cross country and, uh, hit up, um, grand Teton National Party. I felt like, you know, you could spend months in that place and still just kind of scratch the surface. It's huge. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well this might've answered the next question. Are you, would you rather vacation in, uh, in the mountains or at the beach?

Greg Gershman: 00:56:27

I'm definitely a mountains person. I can answer that one very. That's the only five second answer I'll give you on this.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:33

Perfect, uh, favorite app on your phone?

Greg Gershman: 00:56:36

Favorite app on my phone? That's a great question. I mean, it's probably, I, I spend most of my time on, uh uh, I, well, I don't know how to answer this question. I, it's probably, I mean, I use it a lot for email work, that kind of thing. Um, you know, if, if it's like, what am I doing to like, kind of wind down or disconnect or something like that, uh, I will admit that I got off all social media. Um, but I am on Instagram. Uh, there's, I've, I've kind of, you know, curated a nice mix of like, nature birds, you know, that kind of stuff that, that, uh, that pops up on my homepage, so

Tim Winkler: 00:57:14

I applaud you. That's fantastic. Um, trying to do the same, it's, it's tough. It sucks you and gets its hooks in you, and then it's like, oh, I, I need to get away from this. Yeah. Um, all trails is a cool app. If, if you're, sounds like you're doing some hiking. So, um, that's, that's probably one that I, I lean into more, more than not. That's a good one. Um, what is the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed? Um,

Greg Gershman: 00:57:39

Oh gosh. Well, I have sworn that I will never wear a turtleneck again. Uh, uh, growing up in the eighties and early nineties, I had a lot of turtlenecks. Um, this one I'm actually kind of proud of, but I probably will never do it again. Uh, I don't know if, whatever, but I used to roll my jeans. Um, you know, like, I don't know if that's, if that makes any sense to anyone, but, uh, you know, I'll probably never do it again, but I kind of liked it, so I'll admit. I, I thought it looked good. So did they call, used to call

Tim Winkler: 00:58:09

that pegged? Pegged, uh, your jeans, like where you roll the, the bottoms up?

Greg Gershman: 00:58:16

Uh, I don't remember it being called that, but that it could be. I, I think, I think I called, it rolled, like we'd rolled the jeans. Yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:58:24

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, turtlenecks, uh, we'll, we'll take, that's a strong answer. Um, what do you love most about yourself?

Greg Gershman: 00:58:32

I. Um, uh, what do I love most about myself? Um, I, I think that, uh, alright, that's, that's a, that's a, that's a hard question. Um, uh, I think that, I think I, uh, like the fact that I am, uh, uh, someone who seeks out, uh, challenge, uh, and, you know, likes to be challenged, um, you know, and kind of pushes my, push myself to, uh, you know, to kind of learn new things and, uh, you know, take on new, new, uh, new goals and objectives.

Tim Winkler: 00:59:10

Nice. Last one and we'll close on this, um, favorite, uh, Disney character.

Greg Gershman: 00:59:18

Well that's, that's somewhat easier for me now because, and I'm probably gonna regret and think of like sixth great answers after I get off this call. But I was born in 1977. Um, star Wars has always been one of my favorites. Um, so I can technically list basically any Star Wars character and get away with like, that's a Disney whatever. Um, so I'll go with Han Solo. Uh, you know that that was, uh, I'm just a big Star Wars fan. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:59:45

Disney's uh, just end ends it all these days, doesn't it? So could go down some Marvel pass. You can go down Star Wars. So yeah, Han Solo will take it. Well, good stuff. Well, well, Greg, thanks for spending time with us. You know, we're, we're excited about the, the future and, and the work that you all are building, uh, the mission behind Ad Hoc. It's, it's truly a space that needs continued attention and, uh, you know, we're rooting for you all. It's, uh, it's great to have you on the, on the podcast and, uh, yeah, thanks for joining us.

Greg Gershman: 01:00:15

Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Uh, and uh, yeah, this is a lot of fun.