Startup Spotlight: How Scale AI is Redefining Federal Defense with AI | The Pair Program Ep33

Tim Winkler: 00:00:05

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of hatchpad,

Mike Gruen: 00:00:15

and I'm your other host, Mike Gruen.

Tim Winkler: 00:00:17

Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of The Pair Program. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, joined by my cohost, Mike Gruen. Mike, how's it going? It's going all

Mike Gruen: 00:00:40

right. Um, I, I failed you. I know you reached out to me and you wanted to know what topic we should cover at the very onset. And I totally, I was like, Oh, I'll get back to you. But I haven't,

Tim Winkler: 00:00:50

did you come up with anything? I do. Um, and I'm drinking it right now. Have you, you heard of this brand? This drink brand? No, I have not. Have either of you been? No, I'm intrigued. Yeah. So it is essentially it's an energy drink. Um, and it's a beverage brand that's been getting more and more popular amongst kids. I'm not one of those kids, but I, I, I've been hearing about it quite a bit. So, uh, it's a drink created by the YouTube personality, Logan Paul, Logan Paul. Um, and it's been buzzing in the news recently, uh, I've been getting a lot of scrutiny by the FDA because there's an insane amount of caffeine in it. So it has 200 milligrams, uh, per, I guess, 12 ounces, and they equate that to basically like six cans of Coke or two Red Bulls. And they specifically market it to kids, but there's a, a notice. It's like, if you're under the age of 18, you're not supposed to be able to purchase it. So I don't think anybody's checking IDs or anything, but I was just curious if either of you had, had tried it or purchased it for your kids. Cause I'm, I'm enjoying, uh, and it's completely marketed to kit. You can tell like this one's actually called ice pop, right? So it's like, nice, exactly what you would think. And it tastes delicious, but. You know, by the end of this, if I'm not bouncing off the walls and it's just a note that the prime prime is working, it's magic, but get

Mike Gruen: 00:02:15

it anywhere. Your cherry vapes are

Tim Winkler: 00:02:17

sold. Yeah, cherry vapes will be sold alongside of it. Yeah, it's, it's funny though. But like, it's, it's quite genius with, uh, so they, they tagged a, uh, a sponsorship or partnership with, um, UFC. So it's like the official drink of UFC. And so, I don't know, you, you started getting these partnerships and next thing you know, it's, yeah. Every kid is trading at the cafeteria, uh, the table. So, so

Mike Gruen: 00:02:41

did you specifically not name them for those of us like, or for any particular reason, because the people on the, who are just listening to the audio aren't going to necessarily know the brand, but

Tim Winkler: 00:02:51

I'm pretty sure I'll have to just promote it in the, in the show notes at the end. Um, cool. Let's, uh, let's give our listeners a quick preview of today's episode. So. Today we're going to be talking a little bit about artificial intelligence, uh, specifically examining some use cases. And how it's implemented in more regulated industries like defense and national security. Um, so that for those newer listeners to the show, you know, we've been driving a little bit of a light mini series of episodes that dive deeper into the marriage of commercial tech and government and specifically areas like defense tech. Space tech, energy, climate tech. And so for today's discussion, we're really going to be pulling back the curtain on how AI is being applied within the defense sector. Uh, and we've got some fantastic, uh, guests joining us, uh, with a specific use case from a very reputable AI company called scale AI, uh, Catherine Harris, who is the head of growth for scale AI as defense vertical. And also notably served as a senior advisor at the Pentagon and Ben Young's, the head of federal solutions engineering at scale AI. So Catherine and Ben, thank you both for, for joining us today on the pair program. Thanks. Good stuff. All right. Now, before we dive into the discussion, we do kick things off with a fun segment called pair me up. Uh, this is where we kind of all go around the room, shout out a complimentary pairing. Mike, why don't you lead us off? So,

Mike Gruen: 00:04:16

yeah, at the risk of possibly doing a dupe, I, I seem to recall having done this one, but I couldn't find it listed anywhere, uh, mojitos and, uh, plantains. Um, this is the time of year when I go to Baltimore, there's a restaurant called, uh, little Havana's, uh, and I made some friends there and this, we just sit out on the. Out on the outside area, uh, patio over to looking the harbor and, uh, drink mojitos, eat plantains and have fun.

Tim Winkler: 00:04:43

Sounds great. Sounds like the time of weather for it right now, too. Exactly. Yep. Yeah. Um, cool. Yeah, I don't think I was hoping you were going to call me out if it was. No, it's not to do. All right. Awesome. Awesome. We actually have a running board for the guests. We have a running board of just, you know, it's been like 35 plus pairings that have been not just from us, but then like 2 other people. So usually we get bourbon or some sort of a food type for, for one of them, but, uh, uh, haven't heard the mojitos one yet. So we'll, we'll slide. Um, all right, cool. I'll go. Uh, so my parents going to be the cereal aisle, um, and anxiety, uh, partially because, so I went to the grocery store the other day, just picking up. A couple of items and I'll preface that my wife is usually the one that goes grocery shopping. She loves it. Me not so much. So for me to intentionally go and grab groceries, um, it's a little overwhelming and I don't quite know the lay of the land very well. It usually takes me a little bit longer to find what I need. So anyways, I wind up in the cereal aisle and I'm scanning the shelves, just kind of walking back and forth. And I'm not joking. I think I was there for close to 15 to 20 minutes in this aisle. And I think I just had like a blank stare across my face primarily because I'm in all just like the sheer amount of cereal that lines these shelves and kind of questioning, you know, what kind of Cheerios, you know, do we really want? And I started to count like the number of different types of Cheerio boxes that were being offered. And I'm, and I'm not joking. There were 17. different kinds of Cheerios, 17 of these. And you know, when you have that many options, it's just, you kind of get that decision fatigue. Um, and so I had a light wave of anxiety hit me, you know, wasn't sure if I was making the right decision. You know, should we get the new, the new flavor that just came out? Some cinnamon, berries, swirl, anyways, long and short. It's a ridiculous amount of cereal, um, that our grocery stores are pushing out and decision overload led to extreme anxiety. So my, my, uh, pairing is cereal Isle and anxiety. Um,

Mike Gruen: 00:06:49

did you say fuck it and walk away with your cart in the

Tim Winkler: 00:06:52

aisle? I think at one point I probably was going to, but it was, uh, I had to bring something back and walk away empty handed,

Ben Youngs: 00:07:01

um, a lot of, uh, a brightly colored, uh, cereal boxes marketed to children. A lot of good options there. Yeah, I

Mike Gruen: 00:07:09

think you have a theme going today. Uh, yeah, stuff, things marketed

Ben Youngs: 00:07:14

to

Kathryn Harris: 00:07:15

kids. I was going to say maybe, maybe lay off the caffeine drink next time you go shopping.

Tim Winkler: 00:07:20

It's a good, it's good advice. I actually think I ended up going with a, like a lucky charms. Um, Oh, lucky charms oatmeal. So they make like cinnamon toast crunch and lucky charm oatmeal now. So as I just said, forget the cereal, um, moving on. So, all right, I will, uh, I'll kick it over to our guest now. So, uh, Catherine, why don't you go ahead and give us a quick intro and tell us your parent.

Kathryn Harris: 00:07:45

Sure. Uh, hey, great to meet you all. Uh, yes, I'm Kevin Harris. Uh, I run growth at scale. Uh, for the past 5 years, I've been in different, uh, venture backed, uh, commercial technology firms, bringing that tech into DoD, spent a number of years at the Pentagon as a DoD civilian, and then started my career at SAIC. So all around defense technology, uh, for, for many, many years. Uh, so my pairing, I'm keeping it on the food and summer theme. I'm going to go with, uh, fresh peaches and living in the moment. Right now is peach, uh, peak peach season. And I think they're one of the only, you know, fruits or vegetables where you have to bite and season. You cannot bite out of season and enjoy it. And so right now just enjoying it, living it up. And then at the end of the season, I'll wait 11 months till next summer. Uh but just kind of live in the moment, enjoy it now, and appreciate it

Tim Winkler: 00:08:35

and that's what I'm doing. Solid. Summer peaches. Can't uh can't beat it. It's a such a great fruit.

Ben Youngs: 00:08:43

Yeah. It's a favorite to bring down to the pool. Yes,

Tim Winkler: 00:08:46

absolutely. Um, it reminds me, um, my wife and I took a trip outside of Grand Junction, Colorado to a little town called Palisades and they're just notoriously known as a tourist destination for their peaches. Um, one of the things that stood out. So it was the right time of year is about July a couple of years ago. So, um, perfect time to go and pick some peaches. Awesome. Uh, Ben, uh, how about your intro and your pairing?

Ben Youngs: 00:09:13

Yeah, thank you. Great. Great to be here. I'm Ben Young's, uh, lead, uh, the, the federal solutions engineering team for, for scale. I've been with the company for, uh, just under a year. Um, prior to that, I was, uh, spent six years at, uh, Incutel. So the strategic investor for The intelligence community and department of defense. So I kind of, um, did a lot of work in evaluating startup company technology, especially in the enterprise software worlds, um, looking for opportunities to bring innovative technology into the government space and, um, actually going and kind of vetting and engaging with a lot of those companies. So did six years there. And prior to that, I spent a decade in and around government as a contractor, primarily building. Um, large, uh, large scale analytics systems, geospatial, uh, platforms, the like. Um, so, uh, my pairing today, uh, maybe not the most exciting thing, but with a, uh, with a nine month old, uh, infant, it's something that's, that's increasingly rare. I'm going to go with, uh, coffee and a good book. Like on a, nothing better to me on a, you know, weekend morning. Nice quiet day. Um, and just being able to grab a coffee and read for a little while. Um, and, uh, use that as a form of meditation. Nice.

Tim Winkler: 00:10:32

Oh, that's great. What's a, what's a book of choice that you're, that you're reading right now?

Ben Youngs: 00:10:38

Oh, gosh. Um, I, I usually kind of stick with, uh, with a lot of, uh, nonfiction, but, uh, I'm currently reading is that the three body problem, the fictional, um, uh, science fiction book, really interesting. So I'm just on the first book of that. So I'm kind of right in the middle of that. I, I, uh,

Mike Gruen: 00:10:56

I started that last summer as an audio book and I was like, this is not working for me as an audio book.

Ben Youngs: 00:11:02

I totally hear you. I don't know, you know, the first half of it, I was like, I'm not sure if I'm tracking everything. It gets better. Um, but you know, I think I need to be better at kind of cutting sometimes when I'm, when I'm not feeling it, but I'm going to stick through this one and I'll let you know how it finishes. Awesome. Well,

Tim Winkler: 00:11:22

and kudos on the nine month old. I've got a seven month old. So I think one of my parents was, um, newborns and expresso machines because, I mean, you know what it's like, right? I mean, it's the sleep is, uh, it is not quite what it once was.

Ben Youngs: 00:11:37

That's for sure. Yeah, for sure. Well, congratulations to you as well.

Tim Winkler: 00:11:41

It really is. Um, awesome. Well, yeah, we're, we're excited to have you all. Um, like I mentioned, we're going to Be talking a little bit about, you know, AI applications in the defense sector. Um, and we are, uh, obviously, you know, talking to you all coming from a San Francisco based AI company. Um, love to, to hear firsthand. You know, some of these real world use cases with how it's transforming the defense industry, um, discuss some of the challenges that startups and commercial companies face, you know, when implementing AI solutions, how they can overcome these obstacles and such. Obviously, there's a lot of cultural challenges of AI adoption and defense. So breaking down some of that in the discussion to help technologists and founders who are tuning in. Uh, you know, help them navigate those waters and and do so as efficiently as as possible. Uh, 1st off, why don't we, uh, have Catherine? Why don't you kick us off and provide us a little bit of background and context on on scale? AI? Because, you know, you you're considered a dual use technology company. And you have some commercial applications for your tech, not just defense and national security, but you can shed some light on scale AI and the kinds of problems that you all are solving at large.

Kathryn Harris: 00:12:52

Yeah, certainly. Um, so CLI has been around for a number of years, founded by Alex Wang, really got our start, you know, on the commercial side in the autonomous vehicle industry, uh, doing data labeling there. Um, have grown quite significantly on the commercial side, and a number of years, uh, got involved on the defense side, helping with data labeling for, uh, intelligence missions and functions and have expanded that to the Department of Defense and other, um, federal civilian agencies. Corporate headquarters is in San Francisco. Federal headquarters is in Washington, D. C. We have a global footprint and are really very lucky on the federal side. That we have all of the business functions in place to work with. You mentioned a lot of the cultural barriers. There's a lot of administrative security. Business functions that commercial companies require to do work with the federal government. And we're very lucky that we've been able to invest in those and have really great federal partners to help us get those accreditations and really put our commercial technology to the full use across a range of duty and until missions.

Tim Winkler: 00:14:02

Awesome yeah, I'd love to peel back some specific projects that you all are working on. Um, I'm going to kick it to Ben real quick. Um, Ben, if you maybe can provide our listeners with a little bit more clarity on your specific role too, because I think this plays into the conversation, you know, the role of solutions, solutions, engineer solutions, architect, it's. Something that can be defined very differently from one company to another. So, you know, maybe explaining your role and then we can jump into some examples of some of these successful AI implementations that you all are working through in the defense space.

Ben Youngs: 00:14:36

Yeah, happy to. Um, you know, it's interesting. I think of myself kind of as coming from the technical world. Uh, Been hands on for a long time. Um, and now really in this role, head of, uh, solutions engineering, we actually support our go to market team, which, which Catherine runs part of it. And so, um, really what, what it kind of boils down, um, on, on our side within the company is we, uh, work very closely with our business development teams to engage with potential customers. So, um, thinking of kind of pre deal almost like pre sales engineers, um, Where we're going out and doing a lot of the, uh, Opportunity scoping from a technical perspective, requirements, gathering, understanding specific use cases that customers may have, um, really, you know, when the, when things are working well, we're, we're learning more about those customers and, and what really they need on their side, you know, what existing systems they have, what their data is like, you know, all their various pain points that they're really trying to address. Um, and we try to. Absorb as much of that as we can, you know, in, um, collaboration with our business development partners. And then we take that information and go back to our internal engineering teams, our product teams, all of those groups, um, and, and really kind of figure out what, what sort of solutions and capabilities that we can bring forward. And then that can include actually building out demonstrations and proofs of concept. Um, hoping to scope specific efforts from a contractual standpoint, helping with proposals, all of that sort of thing. So wherever we can come in from kind of a, a first, uh, first tier of technical support for our, uh, for our sales folks, um, being involved in, in trying to kind of figure out how we can bring our technologies, uh, to address customer needs.

Tim Winkler: 00:16:31

Yeah, uh, it's, it's a, it's a position that obviously is super important to the business at large. Uh, it's not easy to find that right balance of someone that can do the customer interfacing and the back and forth between the technical side of things. Obviously coming from a technical background is, is a pretty important and understanding some of those key areas. Let's let's talk about some of those areas, you know, maybe playing out a scenario of, um, of an implementation. I think, you know, there's a lot of, um, it's tough to really, I don't know, uh, unpackage some of these, you know, what might seem like such large scale implementation. So, uh, walk us through 1 that that you would say is, you know, maybe 1 that's You know, a success, but also something that, you know, has been, you know, uh, uh, easier to kind of wrap your head around, uh, for, you know, some of these defense oriented projects, um, Catherine Benway, either of you can can lead it off.

Kathryn Harris: 00:17:33

Yeah, I mean, I think just before getting into specific examples, I'll just pick up a little bit on some of the themes that. That Ben had talked about in his role and, you know, sort of how we partner together. Um, 1 of the things that I love about business development in general, and working with solutions engineering teams is it's actually not selling. And a key thing Ben said is about learning and listening to customers and really unpacking them. And I think, you know, for us working in the federal sector, the technologies and solutions we're selling. They're not commodity solutions, um, and being sort of early technology and working with a lot of early adapters requires a lot of not fully customized solutions, but a lot of hands on and, you know, a lot of missions and organizations across the federal government. Um, their missions are so diverse that their needs are really unique. And so being able to sit down and spend time with them and unpack their mission and learn and listen and not just understand what are the technical requirements, but what's the, the overall mission that they're trying to achieve and then also understanding it and the business context of how. D. O. D. acquires and implements and sustains technology can be very different across different customers. And so when we sit down, you know, or, you know, at the beginning of a journey with a new customer, it's it is a full range of all of those topics that we really unpack, which I think, you know, makes it interesting, exciting. And each deal is different each day. And each customer is different

Ben Youngs: 00:18:57

in some ways.

Mike Gruen: 00:18:58

I think one of the other things I'm curious if you guys when you're engaging one of the things so I was in that role for a little while, uh, on the customer facing government side selling into Intel. Um. And, um, I, I, I like to think of myself, I was lucky in that I was both the pre sales and the post sales. So I, my vision, what I was working with them on, I was then getting to deliver on. So I knew how it was all going to come together. And I think 1 of that's 1 of the big challenges is when you have 2 separate units and you have somebody who's out there, um, coming up with that solution and then communicating that back to the engineers. That's, that's like 1 of the challenges. Um, and I'm curious, like, how, how you sort of handle that. Um, cause it can create good tension and it can create bad tension

Ben Youngs: 00:19:43

for sure. Yeah, I can take that one. So yeah, we're aligned, you know, so, so the, the SCT, my SCT, um, is, is largely pre sales focused. Um, we have field engineers, um. That do most of the, the, um, post deal kind of, uh, technical work, of course, in collaboration with our engineering team, software engineers, machine learning engineers, that sort of thing. Um, and, and quite honestly, there, there can be some friction there, right? So there's, uh, sometimes the, the tendency, uh, in some spaces that, uh. Kind of design this whole thing and then throw it over the fence and say, all right, we've got a contract in place. Now you need to execute on it. It's almost like, uh, um, uh, developers and ops folks, right? Like, we've built the software, now you need to, to maintain it. Um, I, I think how we address that is certainly just, you know, really having good communications skills and having good relationships with those other teams. Um, but it's also having processes in place. You know, so we're, we're engaging. Um, you know, with our engineering team specifically, like they're almost hungry for this information from customers, like what we're getting from these conversations, they want to know, like, what are people interested in, what are the things they care about, or like, why are people asking for these sort of features or, or, or capabilities? So they, they want to hear from us, which is a good position to be, and they want to hear that information and understand kind of why. What customers are looking for and why they want those sort of things. So, um, that's all part of the process. We try to bring those engineering folks and the software engineers and as soon as we can in the process, and they support us every day and, you know, helping to be able to better articulate our capabilities and that sort of thing. Same thing for the field engineers. We have a formal kind of, uh, process for handing over work when it goes from kind of the pre deal to post deal. Um, but, but it really does have to be not just a handoff, but kind of a continuous. We're all on one, one larger team. And, you know, there's going to be, there's going to be times where we need to surge and support, um, RFE counterparts and vice versa too. And I can think of A variety of examples where, uh, we've called in our field engineering folks to help us with things that help us actually go out and, uh, talk to customers, potential customers. So I think, you know, to, to really the, the biggest two things are kind of, uh, um, process and, and, and communication and, and, and establishing maybe three things, of the org. Yeah, I'm

Mike Gruen: 00:22:18

sure the, the relationship building is like a critical part, right. That you have to have that trust. And it's like, look, I didn't do Mike. I'm not malicious. I'm not trying to make it hard for you. So let's, you know, if you, if you know that that going in, then it makes everything else a lot easier. Um, so that's cool. Um, and I think 1 of the, um, the 1 of the things that I saw, because there were in that team that I was on, we also had. Separate that we're doing, you know, pre sales and then there's the implementation engineers and where I saw that relationship work best. It was when, you know, they could actually explain like, this is actually what I was thinking. Like, it wasn't it was a lot of like, meeting and talking it through. And then the person who's doing the implementation was like, oh, I understand why you think you can do it that way. And that makes sense. Or yeah, I think now I understand why you think you can do it that way. But like, here's how we'd actually have to implement it. And um, and so it was a good education back and forth and they. Okay. Helped each other. I think that's an important part and it's not just throwing it over the wall. Um, so that's

Ben Youngs: 00:23:15

great to hear. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. I was just gonna say yeah, I think you know, uh, oftentimes in a startup You know, there's there's not those kind of formal processes in place. I think as we've matured as a Certainly as a federal business unit but I think as a company overall having those processes to when we're scoping an opportunity and we're thinking about You know, what would this look like if we were to actually build something, um, for a customer? Like, what would this look like? And are we asking the right questions? And We're actually kind of documenting this and having these conversations both formally and informally that everyone, you know, when the process is working, everyone's kind of on the same page there instead of the, we're going to do this. We talked to the customer and hey, engineering team, go build this. I think over time, we've gotten better at, at kind of understanding what needs to happen as part of that process. And everybody feels pretty comfortable with that. And there's no surprises there. That's awesome.

Kathryn Harris: 00:24:14

And when you say that that process, I think is even more important for a product company. I mean, I think a lot of the, you know, companies that work with the federal government, you know, their services companies, or they build custom widgets that the government that owns, but, you know, company like scale and many others, you know, being product companies where we. Build technology, you know, with our own resources and own that IP and then try to build something that can service many customers that internal feedback loop of understanding customer needs across different customer sets, building it into the product, deploying it and having a feedback between, you know, business development, execution, delivery, product engineering, I think is even more important.

Mike Gruen: 00:24:53

Yeah, I totally agree. I still remember that moment after I joined the company as I and like having that engine talking core engineering and talking to them about the things that I was seeing and the changes I want to make to the corporate. It was a product. Right. And as I and getting that, like, yeah. Oh, this engineer, he's a, he knows what he is doing. We're gonna give him access to the actual core engineering report, like as one, you know, and, and being able to submit pull requests and stuff like that back to the, to the main application and being able, you know, and having that trust between the, the two and being able to explain and, and making the product better, like identifying those things and overall making both the, by doing the government work, making the commercial product better. Um, and I think that that's an important part.

Ben Youngs: 00:25:34

How do you guys,

Tim Winkler: 00:25:35

oh, sorry, I was gonna say like, what are some of the actual like use cases that are being applied? Um, I think this is something that, you know, I'm personally intrigued in. Um, you know, we, we work a lot of companies that are building, you know, defense tech. Products that maybe are, you know, satellites that are helping, you know, warfighters on the front lines, but maybe a couple of these AI specific scenarios. I'd love to hear more about that.

Kathryn Harris: 00:25:59

Yeah, so, um, I think a simple way to start thinking about it is, um, on the battlefield and off the battlefield. And, you know, there's a lot of interest in, you know, um, how AI could be used for warfighters and lethality. And there's a lot of ethical concerns. And I think there are a lot of. Operational use cases that are very ethical and areas where we're involved wasn't happy to talk about that. But 1 area where there's a tremendous growth that we're seeing is sort of back end admin support. I mean, you think about the Department of defense. It is probably 1 of the largest enterprises in the world, largest employer in the U. S. Tremendously large health care system, huge global supply chain system. It has its own educational system, research system, judicial system. I mean, it's it's almost, you know, it has so much. Um, and so if we can help the Department of Defense make better decisions, invest its resources, have more efficient business functions, make the everyday lives of soldiers, sailmen, sailors, airmen, Marines, Coast Guardsmen, Guardian, and their families, uh, just have a better experience, that's great. And so one of the areas that we're focused on are things like that, just basic, um. Administrative business functions and applying against that. And certainly you see that growth, um, in the commercial sector as well in all kinds of verticals and industries, um, on the more sort of operational side, you know, core war fighting functions. Um, we see a lot of applications on intelligence and computer vision, um, and autonomy, autonomous systems, uh, planning, helping, uh, military planners. Understand their environment, develop plans, develop courses of action, be able to do that very quickly. Um, so a lot of different use cases for both sort of, you know, traditional war fighting as well as, um, you know, back office administrative, uh, business functions as well.

Tim Winkler: 00:27:58

Yeah, I always think it's an interesting, um, concept with, I think I was reading an article from Palantir back in the day where, you know, they were doing user research, right? They're using user research and, you know, war settings, um, you know, flying in with, with some soldiers to, you know, get that feedback firsthand on how they're using XYZ product. It adds a level of, you know, it, it, it, yeah. Intricacy that, you know, isn't really, you know, this widget that, you know, you can just kind of bounce back user research from this product person to this user. Have you all experienced that? I mean, that's 1 of those things that makes, you know, really gathering product feedbacks a much different level than, you know, a different B2B setting.

Ben Youngs: 00:28:42

Yeah, absolutely. It can be challenging. I mean, um. Talking about the various kind of challenges and working with federal customers, especially as you get into sensitive or classified environments that you know that that sort of feedback loop. This is a little bit more difficult and can definitely make it more challenging to help bring that feedback in and adjust course and kind of the capabilities you're providing. Um, so. There's a variety of ways to work with that. Certainly it's being able to have people that come from those, those environments and can, can be in those environments and, and kind of see firsthand what's going on and talk to those users directly. Um, but it's going back to kind of what we were talking about in having those conversations even pre deal with customers. Um, Continually engaging with with various groups and and most of the time listening and and just learning about use cases and what they're what they're looking for and trying to roll that into our capabilities. It's a there are a variety of challenges around that. It's different on the federal side than maybe having commercial products where you're getting direct, you know, you're getting a Uh, through your support channels and email and, you know, probably all these various different forms of inbound feedback. Um, oftentimes it's not like that on the federal side and you have to go out and solicit feedback, uh, directly from customers. So it's, uh, it's definitely a different way to work. Um, but that's kind of on us to, to make sure we're proactive and going out and having those conversations and, and, and asking our customers or potential customers for feedback. I can't tell you how my, oh, sorry.

Kathryn Harris: 00:30:20

I would say a really interesting example of that. Um, we have a contract now where we're deploying, um, uh. A large language model solution that end users can directly interact with, and it's intended to be used as part of a military exercise. And there's probably 10 different user groups globally distributed in all these different organizations. And it was a really interesting lesson to me of. When you put a product in the wild where users take it and we had one user group that used it for a completely different purpose, something we had not considered and but they got a lot of value out of it and they really enjoyed it and actually we're working with them to spin out a separate contract directly with them and have them be able to continue to use the product in a different way. And so I think sometimes, you know, we have our ideas about how our technology and products can be most useful, but actually putting it in the hands of users and letting them run with it. Um, They surprise us. And I love that.

Mike Gruen: 00:31:13

That's awesome. That's actually sort of what I was going to ask about was like, um, I know from my experience again, um, the people I most likely talked to was not the operator, but someone who was responding to someone else. Uh, so it always felt like I was working with gloves on, like I never got, I never got to talk to the end user. Um, and it was always a very difficult dance. Um, And then when we finally, you know, I got all the clearances and we got all the things and we finally got to talk to some of the analysts that were using our product and seeing, and I was like, Oh, wait, that's not what I meant. And it's interesting to see that that's, that's just the way it is and it's something you have to be

Ben Youngs: 00:31:51

prepared for. That's

Tim Winkler: 00:31:51

awesome. Yeah, Ben, your, your background was really fascinating to me. Um, you know, with your experience at In Q Tel, you know, and, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but you know, what you're looking across like the portfolio and determining, you know, which of these technologies from these companies can best serve these different agencies across defense, national security and intelligence. Um, and how Maybe explain to us how, like, how valuable that experience was when you're now working internal for a product company and how you're using that experience to benefit how scale does business, you know, within defense and national security.

Ben Youngs: 00:32:31

Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, so I, I focused on enterprise software and largely, uh, infrastructure type technologies. So you can think of cloud and dev tools and those sort of things. Um. But it was tremendously beneficial, but first to get a broader kind of understanding and access to a variety of different customer groups. So certainly it was pretty much all of the intelligence agencies in the country. Um, a wide variety of, of, um, Department of Defense, um, organizations. Uh, to include, um, additionally federal law enforcement and, and, and those sort of organizations as well. So I had a, before working in detail, a fairly small sliver of experience with, with some of these groups, which was great, but, but then to kind of be able to see that across the board and how one, the, the, the challenges and, and kind of use cases from, from one organization to another. That was really, really interesting just to see kind of, um, how broad in a sense, uh, you know, the, the, the types of work these groups are doing, but then also at the same time, kind of looking at it and then like realizing that all of these organizations in a lot of ways have the same problems that any large commercial organization would have with kind of the added. Uh, challenges and restraints and, uh, dealing with sensitive information and, you know, not being able to be connected to the Internet all the time. All of that sort of stuff. So understanding kind of the core core challenges kind of across the board, and that's just like, when I think about it, it's, um. You know, too much information, whether it's the or I see really prolific creators and and collectors of information, but the challenge of being able to process and make sense of all that information, um, is just not really. Kind of a human solvable thing at this point with the volume and velocity of data that's being created. Um And so that, that's kind of the biggest thing that I took away from my time there and certainly applying that to scale. How do we make the human, um, operator, analyst, lawyer, um, uh, contracts person, like, how do we help them do their job? We kind of augment their job in a, in a way that, that can. Uh, less than that burden and have them focus on kind of higher quality work and not the, you know, I need to spend 90 percent of my time just evaluating data or curating data or any of that stuff. So I think that's been kind of the thing that I continually go back to and think about when I'm talking to potential customers. Like, what sort of capabilities can can we provide a scale that just helps? Helps anyone would have been these communities do their jobs more effectively to save them time to help them, um, do higher quality work. Um, all of those sort of things. I think, um, you know, leveraged a lot of those experiences from working at and then apply them, you know, to the conversations and the customers we have at scale.

Tim Winkler: 00:35:32

Yeah. And then to flip that to you, Catherine, so your, your experience, you know, just doing some research and it's, it's pretty broad from working with big contractors that are on the services side, then working. Almost in the customer's seat, right at the Pentagon and then, uh, had a couple of commercial stints there that were still kind of catering to, uh, the defense side of things. Um, so some startup experience there and then probable, um, how have those kind of, and then a professor as well. So how is that kind of a unique, uh, diverse background applied to you and how you're Most effective and catering to your customers at scale. Yeah.

Kathryn Harris: 00:36:12

Um, I think very well. So I really enjoy being in business development. I know a lot of people don't particularly people that come out of government and out of the military, they think, you know, sales is uncomfortable. Um, but I don't, I, that's not been my experience at all. I think because I have a lot of customer empathy because I've been in those shoes. And I think one of the unique things about scale and many other. Companies that work in the federal sector is we really are mission driven. Many of us come from having served in some capacity, supporting government and warfighters. So, really understanding what it's like to be in their shoes, understanding the culture and the bureaucracy and the communications and the contracting constraints and being able to work with them. To be successful in the context that they're working in has been been super helpful. Um, and, you know, my experience teaching at Georgetown. I taught a course called hacking for defense, which is applying the lean startup methodology for national security program. That's not. Uh, you know, coding, hacking class in that sort of sense, but how do you have the bureaucracy by by, um, lean startup methodologies and really it's based in. Customer discovery, which is exactly what we do in business development of getting in and we've, you know, we've talked about this examples of sitting with your customer and sitting with your partner and seeing how they're using the technology or, you know, what are the workarounds that they're trying to use today? Because they don't have access to the tools that they need. Um, and so I think for me, having. You know, engineering background, uh, having worked at the Pentagon, knowing the missions, knowing the language, knowing the customers, and then applying that lean startup methodology in a business development role in a startup. It's just been a really great, you know, intersection of skills and experiences. Um, and just really honestly, very lucky and happy to be where I am in the role that

Tim Winkler: 00:37:57

I am in. Yeah, the, the term hack the bureaucracy is something that we've been hearing quite a bit. Um, you know, we've talked to, I had a couple other folks on the pod, you know, since we've been doing more of these types of discussions, but everything from folks that are consulting, just helping, you know, uh, organizations. That aren't in defense, but just, you know, civic tech, uh, you know, with even like, you know, recreating, you know, the web web design for some of these, these companies or these, these agencies, you know, it's just a very different style of thinking going back to Yeah, they don't always think of it as like a product or they have users. Sometimes you hear project management quite a bit, where a lot of times it is product management, but they don't really call it that. Right. So it's just kind of a different style of thinking. Um, hack the bureaucracy is, uh, Is 1 that certainly has been making its way onto the, uh, onto the podcast. So, um, yeah, I'll give

Kathryn Harris: 00:38:51

you a specific example from this week, actually meeting Ben and I ran with the new customer, um, potential customer, and they were very excited about some of the data labeling capabilities that we have. And you could just tell from the conversation. They just they really wanted to lean in, but there was something kind of holding them back and I brought up contracting. Like, how are we going to get this on? Like, it's great that you want to partner with us, but we have to put a contract in place and we have some contracts available to us that other departments and agencies can use. And as soon as I said that, he said, oh, my gosh, you've just answered. That was my biggest concern. I just, our acquisition process is so slow and it would take us a whole year. And I didn't want to commit because I knew it takes a long, but if you have an easy button and a way that we can work with some other customers that you're already working with in our organization, and if you can simplify that for me, then, then, yes, let's keep having this conversation. And so I think just being attuned to, you know, it's not just the mission or the technology, but in government. In this big bureaucracy, there's I. T. There's security. There's contracting. There's where's the money coming from? What kind of money is it? When did the money come from? All of these different things that you have to account for. And if you understand that system and can be empathetic and help customers navigate all of those little things to get to yes, and to get to a deployment, um, sometimes they just, they just need someone to help them through that process. Um, and you know, people like Ben and I and others in the company, we've, you know, been in those shoes and seen it from different angles and can really just guide our customers through that process.

Tim Winkler: 00:40:27

Yeah, it's a massive obstacle isn't it? Just like the acquisition process. So, um, sitting in their shoes, uh, certainly gives them a sense of relief of, of helping them handholding them through it, you know, kind of white glove, white glove experience. Um, I, I am curious, uh, I've got two, two questions. One, you know, you all both have, have joined within a year. So what was it, you know, when you all were interviewing, um, that kind of sold it for you? Uh, what, what was it that. You know, made you believe and buy into what scale AI is doing, what convinced you that this, this company is doing something very different.

Ben Youngs: 00:41:06

I can, uh, I can start with, yeah. Um, as after, after nine months on the job here, I think, you know, when. Going back a year or so when I was having conversations with various people kind of looking at this role, I think, um, You know, I thought I had a pretty good concept of kind of the landscape of of technology in the federal space and what's getting traction and what's not and what should be getting traction all those things. And, um, I felt like AI for quite a while or machine learning and AI, I think we're things that, um. People talked about, but there wasn't significant energy around that, right? It was like, yeah, sure, we'll, we'll, we'll do this, but, but not really putting the effort in on the federal side. And so I think what was exciting to me just from kind of a technical perspective was like, the time seems right. Broadly, but also in the federal space where people are actually thinking about this and they've kind of gotten to that moment where it's like, oh, this is real and there are ways that we can apply this. And if we don't do it, we're going to fall behind, whether that's our adversaries or fall further behind than the commercial world. So it felt like the right time and the right technology for me. And when I looked at it from a scale perspective, it was, of course, you know, having a really good feeling. Um, from the people I talked to at the company, but, um, the, the energy around the company and the mindset around kind of how we were. Going to help companies kind of wherever they were in their, their AI and ML journey, but like that, our whole kind of, um, point of existence was we're going to help help companies build out their, their, um, capabilities and that's whether it's data labeling, whether it's, um, doing, uh, model development, testing and evaluation, whether it's kind of a new generative AI stuff, like Gail was. Taking this more infrastructure approach to AI and ML and we're not necessarily going to build all the tools or all the model, but we're going to help you get to get to, um, you know, build out your practice. I thought that was that was really interesting. Um, maybe the final thing I just talk about would just be like the. The emphasis on, on being mission focused and really putting a focus on federal work and supporting the country and national security. I mean, if you've ever heard, um, our CEO, Alex talk, he's extremely patriotic and wants to support and wants the U. S. To, to, to compete and win and AI and that, uh, kind of coming from that national security background. That was really exciting for me to hear. And, and, and frankly, like, I don't know that that. Yeah. Um, same sort of mindset exists in a lot of, in a lot of startups, uh, with some notable examples. So I thought those kind of those couple examples were things that really drew me into scale and ultimately, um, convinced me to come over. Cool.

Kathryn Harris: 00:44:01

Yeah, very similar themes for me. I think from a technology perspective, scale is a leader in a lot of ways. And that was just really appealing to be kind of on the cutting edge of, um, you know, technologies, um, and be part of that journey. Similarly. The commitment to national security and defense was very appealing to me. Um, 2 companies. I was at before 1 was a pure play defense. Another was dual use commercial defense. Um, and it was just very important to me being at a dual use company that they, they were 100 percent behind defense and understood that the sales cycle is longer. It's a, it's a different business model, but, um, committed to it, not just because it makes business sense, but for, you know, patriotic reasons as well. Um, and then, you know, for me, the, the size and the culture of the company was very appealing. And that's just a personal decision. Uh, I enjoy being at smaller ish companies. I interviewed at a lot of other larger, more established, uh, publicly traded companies that had gone from venture back and had some kind of exit. Uh, and we're now public and it's just a different culture. And I like being in that small. Kind of, you know, gritty, creative, you know, it's a little bit of a grind, but you're all in it together and just really, really working hard. Those those kinds of groups. Um, and and that's kind of the culture that we have right now. And I really enjoy it.

Mike Gruen: 00:45:17

I think one of the things that really helps with that sort of culture that is, um, when it is mission driven and there is this, everybody understands why we're doing what we're doing. And I think that also helps in bringing the group together. So that's awesome that you guys have that culture and

Tim Winkler: 00:45:31

it's, we hear this term a lot of like, you know, operating like a startup, but you've got the stability and backing of a large organization and some resources at your disposal to really implement and be innovative. I think. Thank you. That is nice because the flip side of being, you know, in that small, scrappy startup, you know, if you look at what's happening in today's market, right, one of the reasons that we put we're pushing more of this content is because there's a huge level of instability and early stage commercial startups that are looking for ways to, you know, technologists are looking and interested in defense tech, because there is a level of You know, spend that's going to get applied to this market. That's necessity. Um, so, you know, being able to, you know, what, I guess, what's the size of scale? Do you have like a ballpark, um, head count, uh, where, where the company sits.

Kathryn Harris: 00:46:21

I think our federal sector is about 100 people right now. Okay. On the commercial side, I'm not sure.

Ben Youngs: 00:46:27

Yeah, 600 plus. Um, so, uh, definitely a later stage startup, both from funding and overall size. Um, yeah, I mean, so this is the first startup I've worked for. Uh, Catherine definitely has more startup experience, but I've worked around a lot of startups over the last several years and have seen, um, you know, a lot of companies go under. I've seen a lot of companies really Really try to push to get into the federal space. It's really, really hard for a variety of different reasons. And so I've, I've seen a variety of companies that have, um, you know, attempted to make that make that push into the federal space and maybe do that for a year or two. And, um. Have some success or, or some teams that have, um, you know, ultimately made the decision to, to, uh, de emphasize or, or altogether kind of leave the federal space, um, just because it is that difficult. And it's, it's really important that, that we have startup companies and innovative technology that want to work in this space and can work in the space. Um, but I think, uh, oftentimes companies, um, don't appreciate how difficult it can be to, to work in the, in the fed space or, or don't have the patience to work in the fed space or whatever the scenario may be, but it's, um, it's, it's really critical. And I'm glad to see, you know, this more recent push of, of defense tech and national street back and fed tech, all of those sorts of things. Really important. Um, and, but I think there's still a long way to go in, in making it easier for companies to, to engage with the government. For sure. It's

Tim Winkler: 00:48:07

interesting to see the different applications from, you know, what's stemmed up from the, the war in Ukraine. Uh, we're seeing a ton of emphasis and. Uh, like drones or very low earth orbiting satellites. Um, that, that has been a space that has really taken off, uh, just also with the most recent advancements and space travel, like reusable rockets and whatnot, uh, it's interesting to see how those, uh, technologies are really changing so fast. Um, we've had some really interesting companies and guests come on that are, you know, really scrappy small companies, but, you know, they're doing really big deals with. Large organizations, uh, in the government, because there's a need for it. And I like the other piece of that is like, there's a want, they know they need it and they want it. So how do you break down that barrier? Um, and so our, our hope is to, if anything, from making this content is to, to help educate and, and, you know, give folks some. Motivation to know that it can be done just takes takes a little time and a strategic process to put in place. But, um, I think that's all for the for the main discussion. I've got more questions, but I want to be mindful of the time and, uh, you know, jump into into this last segment here. So I'll transition us, um, into into our final segment. So 5 second scramble. I'll ask each of you a series of questions, uh, try to give me a response within five seconds. We're not going to air horn you off if you go over, um, and, uh, some will be business. I'll be personal. Um, I'll go ahead and start with, um, with Ben, uh, Benny, are you ready? Yes. Let's do it. All right, let's do it. Um, explain scale AI to me as if I were a five year old.

Ben Youngs: 00:49:56

We, we build infrastructure for teams to be successful in, in AI and machine learning.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:04

How would you describe your culture?

Ben Youngs: 00:50:09

Uh, go get her culture, do what needs to be done to get the job done.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:16

What kind of technologist would you say thrives at scale? AI?

Ben Youngs: 00:50:23

Oh, uh, someone that's adaptable that, that has that kind of, uh, intellectual curiosity that likes to learn about a variety of different things.

Tim Winkler: 00:50:32

What can folks be most excited about for scale heading into 2024? Oh, uh,

Ben Youngs: 00:50:42

man, I, I have to mention generative AI and our large language model work that we're, we're doing. And just the amount of energy and excitement that's around that. I think the things we're doing specifically for our customers, national security is a huge step forward, uh, for them. So really excited there.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:00

Nice. If you could have any superpower, what would it be and why?

Ben Youngs: 00:51:07

uh, gosh. Um, yeah, I think, uh, I'm at the limits of how much information my brain can, uh, can hold in at this, at my advanced stage now, I'd love to have a, a, a more, uh, significant memory capacity. Mm,

Tim Winkler: 00:51:20

that's that's a great answer. Um, if you had to pick one fast food joint, To be established as the first fast food restaurant on Mars. What, which one would you go with?

Ben Youngs: 00:51:34

Oh, I don't know. This might be against their kind of geographic and regional rules, but I'll go in and out burger.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:41

Yeah, that's true. It's a gotta, gotta double check and see if they're going beyond, uh, some of their West coast locations.

Ben Youngs: 00:51:49

That's right. It's time to do it though.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:52

Um, what's something that you'd like to do, but you're not very good at.

Ben Youngs: 00:51:59

Um, I mean, uh, I'd love to be a better developer. I, I am by no means a developer and I wish I had that, that kind of brain, uh, uh, uh, chemistry to be able to do that. So I have to put in a lot of work to be, uh, minimally kind of, uh, capable and, and, uh, development. Nice.

Tim Winkler: 00:52:17

What is a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Ben Youngs: 00:52:23

Um, animal related. So, uh, certainly I support my local, uh, um, Arlington Humane Society and the great work they do and and certainly uh national causes related to that as well amongst other things but definitely animals uh are nearing

Tim Winkler: 00:52:40

deer. She adopted a dog from the Animal Welfare League of Arlington. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Um, what's something that you're very afraid of and why,

Ben Youngs: 00:52:53

uh, I'm not going to, not going to use like, uh, you know, AI, uh, takeover or anything. For someone else, I mean, I'm going to go with, uh, with just being a new parent and that sort of mode you're in. I'm always just being nervous about anything your child is doing and their well being. So I'll go with that. Just kind of generally speaking, I just want to jump in

Mike Gruen: 00:53:18

there. Kudos for starting a new job with a newborn. That was so did you do a trifecta by a house at the same time?

Ben Youngs: 00:53:25

Luckily, but I will say the timing was, uh, was really interesting for sure. And it was, uh, it was, uh, Okay. A life experience that, uh, was, was challenging, but rewarding all at the same time too. Unintended. Yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:53:40

So it's a good cultural plug though, for scale, right? It's like, Hey, like, you know, taking new parents on and trusting that they'll do.

Ben Youngs: 00:53:47

Absolutely. I'll, I'll put my recruiting hat on and say, you know, they were fantastic and gave me the time I needed to, to be a new parent and to do that, the paternity thing and come back somewhat refreshed and get back to work.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:00

That's great. Um, all right, last question. So what is, or I'm sorry, who would you say is the greatest superhero of all time?

Ben Youngs: 00:54:10

You know, I'm not a huge, uh, superhero guy, but I will say of all the superhero, uh, uh, superheroes that I'm aware of, I've always been a Batman guy. Um, so I'll, I'll go with that. Number one

Tim Winkler: 00:54:23

answer. It's the right choice. It's the right choice. Awesome.

Ben Youngs: 00:54:29

Good.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:30

Good. Uh, good answers, Ben. Um, all right. Catherine, are you ready? As ready as I'll ever be. Okay, let's do it. So what is your favorite part of the culture at scale?

Kathryn Harris: 00:54:43

Uh, it's very collaborative. Um, I think we talked about that between engineering, business development, marketing, delivery teams, IT security. It, it really feels like we're all in it together.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:55

When you went through the interview process with scale, what's something about that process that you felt was unique?

Kathryn Harris: 00:55:02

I felt that's a great question. I had a wonderful experience. Uh, the recruiter that I was working with, I felt like, um, told it to me straight. I mean, everything was, uh, very transparent. There was no bait and switch. Once I got inside the company and started, it was exactly as I expected it to be. It was a very, uh, transparent process.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:26

Aside from defense, what commercial use cases and AI are you most excited for?

Kathryn Harris: 00:55:36

Uh, I think I don't know a lot about it, but healthcare and biology and medicine, I feel like it could be extraordinarily, you know, transformational applications.

Tim Winkler: 00:55:48

Who is your biggest role model?

Kathryn Harris: 00:55:51

Ooh, that's a good question. I have, I have a lot. I have, I'm at a point in my life now where I have a lot of dear friends who are just doing amazing things. Women that are in different roles, a lot in stem medicine, business owners, um, that are just. Just really crushing it on the market, but also in their family lives and their personal lives and really well balanced. Um, and so not any 1 person, but sort of a family of. Of friends and role models across different industries.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:21

Cool. Nice. What is a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Kathryn Harris: 00:56:28

I focus a lot on engineering education, uh, uh, and particularly women in engineering and STEM and trying to grow those fields and disciplines and just help others kind of come up through the ranks. Awesome.

Tim Winkler: 00:56:41

Uh, layup, uh, here from the, uh, initial pairing. What is your favorite cereal?

Ben Youngs: 00:56:47

Ooh,

Kathryn Harris: 00:56:48

uh, yeah. I'm not a cereal person. Good for

Ben Youngs: 00:56:51

you. Yeah, I

Kathryn Harris: 00:56:52

don't, avocado toast and scrambled eggs or breakfast person?

Tim Winkler: 00:56:57

So you just breeze right through that aisle? You're not, yeah, it's, there's nom not distraction off. No Okay. Um, what's something that you're good at but you hate doing? Oh, um,

Kathryn Harris: 00:57:14

it's tough on house chores, like cooking and cleaning. I have a dishwasher to empty that I need to get after.

Tim Winkler: 00:57:23

Yes. Yeah. I don't blame you. I outsource that. If you could live in a fictional world from a book or a movie, which one would you choose?

Ben Youngs: 00:57:37

Uh, I'll say this

Kathryn Harris: 00:57:38

cause I just saw a clip on, on how this movie was made recently, but avatar, um, it's just such a beautiful scenery. It feels like it'd be a lovely place to be.

Tim Winkler: 00:57:47

You saw the new one.

Kathryn Harris: 00:57:49

No, it was an old one, but it was a video of how the actors made it and all the gear that they had to put on and how the book was about how great their acting was. But when you actually had raw footage of them acting without all the CGI, just how cold of an environment it actually was and how much imagination they had to bring to the roles to bring out the emotion. Which is pretty neat to see, which is probably true of like most CGI, like probably all CGI movies today.

Tim Winkler: 00:58:14

Yeah, they make it so immersive. It's like you feel like you're a part of that environment. It's really, really neat. Um, what is the worst fashion trend that you've ever followed?

Kathryn Harris: 00:58:26

Oh, so many. So, you know, they say like the early 2000s trends are coming back with like the low rise jeans and all of that. I would say probably, probably that fashion trend.

Tim Winkler: 00:58:43

Everybody's got a good answer for that question. Although I will say,

Mike Gruen: 00:58:46

I think you're the first one that said, Oh, there's so many as opposed to

Tim Winkler: 00:58:53

Um, what was your dream job as a kid? Oh, I

Kathryn Harris: 00:58:57

wanted to be an astronaut. Hands down very early on. That was, that was the dream.

Tim Winkler: 00:59:01

Nice. That's a great answer. And then last one, uh, favorite Disney character.

Kathryn Harris: 00:59:08

Ooh, that's a good question. I don't really watch a lot of Disney movies. I just recently watched, um, this is an older one, but I think it might be a Pixar movie inside out about a girl and all of her emotions and how they take on different characters. And I just thought it was The way many Disney and Pixar movies are both great for kids, but when you watch it as an adult, it sort of hits differently. Uh, and I was just really impressed with that.

Tim Winkler: 00:59:33

Cool. Awesome. Uh, well, that's a wrap. Those were great answers from both of y'all. Um, hopefully it wasn't too, uh, intimidating. Um, I wanted to thank you both again for, for being great guests and, uh, you know, I know. We're excited to continue tracking the innovative work that you, you guys are doing at scale and be doing for years to come. So appreciate y'all spending time with us on the pod. Awesome. Thanks for

Mike Gruen: 00:59:57

having

Ben Youngs: 00:59:57

us. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks Thanks so much. A lot of fun. Appreciate it.