Tech, Tactics, and Transformation: Inside the DefenseTech Revolution | The Pair Program Ep36

Tim Winkler: 00:00:05

Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad. The podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of hatchpad.

Mike Gruen: 00:00:15

And I'm your other host, Mike

Tim Winkler: 00:00:16

Gruen. Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth. So everyone, welcome back to The Pair Program. It's Tim Winkler here. I've got Mike Gruen with me as always. Um All right, Mike. So I, I saw this, um, scenario based question pop up scrolling aimlessly on Instagram the other day, and I thought it was, uh, that was creative. So I want to run it by you. So here, here we go. If you were randomly dropped into a pro sporting event with your entire country's hopes and dreams on the line, Which would you most want to attempt? A, a free throw, b, a penalty kick, C, a 25 yard field goal, or d, a six foot putt,

Mike Gruen: 00:01:14

uh, penalty kick all day. I played soccer. Uh, that's the only one. Penalty. Kick the only one. I feel like I have any, any real shot at, uh, basketball. No way. Yeah. Unless, unless we're talking about manager golf. No way. Uh, yeah.

Tim Winkler: 00:01:30

Yeah. I feel like it's probably pretty good odds, right? I feel like, you know, you don't have to get too crazy. Just, just get it in the, in that box area, right? The goal. You know

Mike Gruen: 00:01:40

what? Just get it on that. Don't, you know, don't like kick it way up over the goal. I think would be the, don't sky it to the moon,

Tim Winkler: 00:01:47

kick it as slow as possible. Uh, not slow, but you know, yeah, it was a good one. I was, I was running it by a few folks, but I, I, I think I'm, I, I, I think that I'm leaning into the free throw just because I, I played a lot of basketball growing up, but damn it. That's embarrassing. If you miss a free throw like that and like, uh, all eyes on you, but yeah, either of those, like all of those options are, are kinda tricky. Ian, what are you, what's your answer on that? I'm kind of curious.

Ian Kalin: 00:02:19

I'm a data geek. So part of me wants to like look at the history of all of those shots and see which one has the highest probability of success. In absence of having the data, I would go with soccer as well. I'm Latino. I just felt like more of my, my roots would somehow magically work their way into my body and ensure that I actually delivered.

Tim Winkler: 00:02:37

Um,

Ian Kalin: 00:02:37

but, uh, I'm thinking about free throws, uh, cause I just, uh, saw Shaquille O'Neal DJ a concert this weekend in San Francisco. And I think his DJ skills are about up there with his basketball free

Tim Winkler: 00:02:50

throw.

Ian Kalin: 00:02:52

Well, you know, he's, he's, he's, he's up with the greats, right? There was a lot of competition, some really great DJs. So it's kind of like, you know, you can't, if you're an amateur among the professionals, you gotta know what you're doing.

Tim Winkler: 00:03:01

Sure. All right. Let's give our listeners a preview of today's episode. So today we are building on a mini series of topics focused on the intersection of tech startups and doing business with the government. So I'm sure that there are many folks out there that have asked themselves, you know, the common question of, you know, why are there not more successful startups innovating in the government space? It shouldn't be that complicated, right? Well, it's extremely complicated actually. And that's why we've got two guests joining us who've been there and done that and have survived to tell, to tell the story. So we've got Ian Callan, the CEO and co founder of Turbine One. Uh, Ian has a background in the U S Navy, has spent 20 years modernizing government technology. Um, and we have Paul Binfield, the director of emerging technologies at Palace Advisors. Um, Paul previously served as. A special assistant to the deputy secretary, deputy secretary of defense, focusing on Department of Defense innovation and modernization priorities. And he's also served more than 20 years in the U. S. Army in various airborne, special ops, infantry units, uh, including services, a joints chief of staff fellow and a company commander, platoon leader, and a non commissioned officer. It's a mouthful. But, uh, a notable background. So Ian, Paul, glad you guys could join us. Yeah, my pleasure. All right. Um, before we jump into the heavy stuff, let's, uh, let's kick things off with our favorite bit. Pair me up. Um, this is a fun little segment where we jump around the room. We kickball a couple of our favorite pairings. Um, Mike, what is your pairing for today?

Mike Gruen: 00:04:50

So mine's kind of boring, uh, but we'll go with it anyway. Card games and friends. Uh, this past weekend, we had some good friends over my friends from college. Um, in fact, he was the one who taught me spades, a college roommate. Um, and so him and his wife and my wife, uh, we all played, um, spades and then other card games. And it was just sort of nice to, it was just nice, um, sort of call back to, to that, those days of college and just, you know, sitting around no responsibilities and shooting the breeze, so. That's, that's my parent.

Tim Winkler: 00:05:20

That's a good one. It's crazy how much time you can spend with just a deck of cards, right? I mean, there's so many, so many things you can play. Like, um, my wife and I, we did something similar, like went camping and there's nothing to do, no, no technology. And, you know, we stayed busy for hours with just a deck of cards, playing spades. Yep.

Mike Gruen: 00:05:39

We, um, our, my wife and I, our go to is cribbage. Uh, that's our, like, I have a tiny little cribbage board. Um, that I, I can bring with us on, on trips. Um, so I was back in a deck of cards just, just in case. So there's cribbage and then also, um, my wife and I also met playing poker. So, uh, we'll play a game called Russian poker, which is

Ian Kalin: 00:05:57

just dangerous on that story. Whatever that story is. I'm sure we can make it a lot longer and more about your current situation, but. So I mean, so the family life, I got kids and one of the most bizarre, wonderful, surprising joys of fatherhood is teaching your kids different card games to see them crush you. Like when that happens, it's like actually a really proud moment, like, wow. My seven year old just destroyed me and you're angry and happy all at the same time. It's, it's wonderful. It's a great thing.

Mike Gruen: 00:06:27

Yep. I've, uh, so my grandparents taught me poker and blackjack when I was really little. Um, and so I've continued that tradition of teaching my kids when they were very little. And so now, um, now they're in middle school and high school and they. They at least know how to play. Um, so there's

Tim Winkler: 00:06:40

that. Yeah. Teach, teach your kids how to gamble in early age. I think is, is important

Mike Gruen: 00:06:45

kids and gambling, I guess, would be another parent for another day. All

Paul Benfield: 00:06:48

right. Um,

Tim Winkler: 00:06:49

all right. I'll, I'll, I'll jump in. So for, for my parent, I'm going to drift back into a nice, comfortable. zone with a food pairing. So nothing, nothing too crazy with this one. I'm going with fresh tomatoes and mozzarella. So my wife and I, we've been hitting up local farmer's market here, uh, every weekend, and we found this produce vendor. Who's just got. The freshest tomatoes. So we've been picking up fresh tomatoes, fresh mozzarella and making Caprese salads and they're freaking delicious. Do a little, little balsamic vinegar on it, a little fresh basil, some sea salt, and, um, yeah, we're working with a, uh, an all out meal at that point. So that's my pairing, fresh tomatoes and fresh mozzarella. Really going

Mike Gruen: 00:07:36

with some controversy there. Yeah,

Tim Winkler: 00:07:39

no one's debating that. That's a, that's a given. Um, cool. Let's, let's, uh, let's pass it over to our guests. So Paul, uh, how about a quick intro from you and, uh, and your parent?

Paul Benfield: 00:07:50

Thanks. Um, so Paul Benfield, and as you mentioned, uh, spent 20 years in the army. Um, the, uh, the last job I had was working for the deputy secretary of defense, who his role is kind of a combination of the CFO the department, so a lot of internal operations. But also running the budget in the budget process. So really valuable and rewarding experience learning about how that process works, but also incredibly frustrating seeing the lack of ability to actually incorporate what was my portfolio was emerging technology. And so this is a 2014 15 timeframe and we're looking at things like low Earth orbit satellites and autonomous robots and AI and machine learning. Um, and, and all of this was to say, Hey, this technology is coming. Is the department prepared to actually adopt it and use it? Uh, and so when I left government, uh, started working for the consulting firm that I'm at now palace, and we were trying to, uh, fast track, getting technology into the hands of men and women downrange as fast as possible. And we're all pretty frustrated with what we saw in the department and thought maybe there's a chance to influence that from the outside. And then after doing that, uh, about a year and a half, we added on a venture capital arm where we do a special purpose vehicle, uh, investments for, uh, you know, early stage companies. Nice. Uh, so, uh, thanks for having me. Um, uh, great topic. And, uh, my pairing is, uh, is baseball and football. Uh, this is my favorite time of the year when they're both on simultaneously. Uh, my, my team for baseball is a New York Yankees, not having a great year, but, uh, my fantasy draft is this weekend and I'll have something to distract me from my terrible showing from my home

Tim Winkler: 00:09:37

team. That's right. Who's, uh, who's your football team then? Um,

Paul Benfield: 00:09:43

I have, okay, so it's a long story, but, uh, I was, uh, I'm born and raised in Florida. Uh, and so the Tampa Bay Buccaneers were my team. Uh, until John Gruden ruined them, and I've never rooted for Tampa Bay since. Uh, I'm a Tony Dungy fan, not a John Gruden fan. So, so now my team is whichever one has a player on my fantasy team on television. That's, that's my team. Nice. There you

Tim Winkler: 00:10:10

go. Solid. Yeah. Yeah. We, we had a, uh, we had a Gruden over here, uh, in DC as well. And um, yeah, it wasn't the. It wasn't the highlight of our, of our seasons either but, uh, I thought you were gonna say, I was a, I was a Buccaneers fan until Tom Brady left, and now I'm, now I've gotta find a new team. Oh, no, no. This, this predates, yeah, predates the, the Golden, the golden boy. Okay. Yeah. The golden

Paul Benfield: 00:10:36

era of, uh, Brady and the Gronk in Tampa Bay. Yeah. I've seen like 18 months.

Tim Winkler: 00:10:42

Yeah, sure. Been entertaining to watch though, we'll say. Oh, yeah. Um, alright. Good stuff. Well, let's pass it over to, uh, Ian. Uh, Ian, thanks for joining us. How about a quick, uh, intro and, and your pairing? Sure. Uh,

Ian Kalin: 00:10:55

so thanks for inviting me as well. Uh, excited to, to get together and chat about this topic that I don't think that's enough attention. So I'm, I'm starting off with a, a big old gratitude. Thank you. Uh, on the bio side. Yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, addicted to improving American government services. I think our nation deserves better, uh, citizens deserve better, and it's worth fighting for, um, on the pairing side, uh, as you can probably tell from my, uh, background here, I'm kind of a music nut and I've already mentioned the music festival that, uh, I've spent this weekend on. And so I'm going to go another one there. And my pairing is arpeggios and a steady backbeat. It was like this strange, uh, theme, whether it was like country music or EDM or hip hop or, you know, whatever, like new, like alt rock, it was just like all these people, all these performers have this like little like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do kind of like on the guitar or the piano. And then just do that for a couple of bars. And then it came with a boom, boom, boom. That like, and it just made everyone, regardless of music type just lose their minds. And every time that happens, you can almost kind of like formulaically look for that in the music, like, wow, that's a great pairing. Like, I don't know what that is, right? Like old, young, rich, poor, something there makes humans want to move and it just works so damn well. So I'm going to play with that a little bit later. So I think I found a trend that I'm going to seek to exploit.

Tim Winkler: 00:12:16

Yeah, for, for those not watching on the, the YouTube channel, Ian has, what is that like six or seven guitars in the background? Various

Ian Kalin: 00:12:27

types, you know, they're all the same. No, no, no. They're very different. They're incredibly, they have nothing to do with each other. Um, but yeah, this is just a few,

Tim Winkler: 00:12:36

yeah, and for those that, that stay on till the very end, Ian, we'll put on a little, a little show on each one of them. I think,

Mike Gruen: 00:12:44

I think we all

Ian Kalin: 00:12:45

deserve better than that if you're listening to this podcast, you've got too much other important stuff to be working on. The

Mike Gruen: 00:12:50

five second scramble,

Tim Winkler: 00:12:50

Captain. Um, Cool. All right. Well, we'll, um, we'll appreciate those intros, uh, and, and parents is great, great insights all around. So let's, let's keep moving ahead here. Uh, so like I mentioned, we're going to, we're going to talk a little bit about how, you know, these tech startups can best navigate the government terrain. Um, we're going to talk some, some partnerships, uh, just kind of given some of this relationship as well between palace and turbine one, uh, some of the regulations, uh, making, you know, sense of some of this tech lingo to, to government folks. Um, and, uh, and, uh, let's, let's just kind of jump in. So I'd like to begin with a clarifying for our, our listeners, you know, the, the relationship between turbine one and, and, and palace advisors, and can use this as a good jump off to build a little bit more context on the, the kinds of problems that each of your companies are solving. And so, Why don't we start with you in, uh, and giving us a little bit more clarity on, on turbine one and the, and then, uh, you know, the, the problems that you're solving and the role that, you know, palace advisors kind of serves with you guys. Yeah, so the,

Ian Kalin: 00:14:00

there's a lot of questions that are unpacked, but the most important problem to start with is that there is no natural pairing between defense and new tech. It's an unnatural pairing. I don't want that to be true, but it is true. And so, in order to introduce new tech into an organization that desperately needs it, and then everyone knows desperately needs it. There needs to be a guy, a translator. A combination of strategy and tactics, someone who can help you through this terrible system and ultimately find a way to communicate so that fundamentally you can compel a degree of change that change is not natural in the system. And so it has to be either invoked or inspired or shut. And so to do that is hard when you, if you're trying to convince someone of something, but you don't speak the language, it's really hard to do. So, and so what I'd recommend to every other tech founder, regardless of type, if you have an airplane, if you have a shield, if you have a tech software mobile application, I'd actually recommend you engage palace advisors. They have been very good to us in helping us understand where to go, where to focus our efforts and to fundamentally bring a product forward that can save a life. But even that product alone is not going to get it to the hands of the warfighters that need it. It needs someone to ultimately translate it's value. And to that end, I've been incredibly grateful for what Palace has done in partnership with

Tim Winkler: 00:15:16

Turbine One. That's awesome. Yeah, I want to expand more on, on what you guys are doing at Palace, Paul, but Ian, real quick on the Turbine One, um, What, yeah, tell me a little bit more about the, the work that you all are doing was on the stuff that you guys are building. Yeah, absolutely.

Ian Kalin: 00:15:32

Uh, so I served in the Navy for a little bit, as you mentioned, and I wish I had our product back when I served, uh, fundamentally, we're a software company, uh, and we're an Intel analytics platform. We help people find what they're looking for. Uh, the bad guys, the bad shifts, uh, weapons, we are our toolkit and we give that toolkit to people so that they can find what they're looking for. Most of our customers today are in the intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance world. They're fundamentally just trying to inform decision makers. And what's fun about our software product, even as a young business, we have seen our tool transform people's lives. They are not doing their job the same way after being given our tool set. Uh, and so that's what gives us great motivation at our small, but mighty. Uh, venture back seed stage, you know, tech startup, the, the, the drive and ambition to keep charging forward and to keep building something that, uh, deserves to be far further forward for the U. S. military and the intelligence community.

Tim Winkler: 00:16:24

Cool. Do you, are, are you guys, um, do you have any commercial applications?

Ian Kalin: 00:16:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the funny thing about trying to find something that's actually really common, uh, you know, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And our toolkit is so easy to use that we've seen our end users taking in places we never expected. My kids are very good at using our software product, whether you're trying to figure out, you know, which dog stole which shoe real story, by the way, happened with 1 of my kids. Um, and it's a part of our differentiation within the AI machine learning category. We have given people a tool kit to build new detectors without the cloud, any hardware, any object. And so if it's. Simple, easy to use, and you can take it anywhere. We've seen people take our tech to places you never expected, which is part of the fun of a startup life. You know, when you give someone a pair of scissors, they can, you know, do all sorts of funny things with it, which are great, but also potentially dangerous. And so that that's part of the responsibility that we're also constantly obsessing over. In this AI and defense world, but yeah, about a 3rd of our business is on the commercial industrial side. Again, trying to find if something going to explode, if something going to leak, is something going to go boom or break that, uh, that responsibility to keep people safe at work is the core of what our software technology does.

Tim Winkler: 00:17:40

Yeah. Simple, easy to use and government customers. Sounds like a great pairing to me. It's like, uh, just make sure that's

Ian Kalin: 00:17:48

the funny thing about it. It's like, wait, this can't be real. Wait, any hardware? Come on. What do you mean? It's not, they don't believe that it's the, the sector has been so poisoned by bad actors, I saw this when I was in uniform. I saw when I was in, uh, the, uh, presidential administration as a acquisition official, which we can get into. And now I'm seeing it as a startup. There are so many bad actors slinging snake oil and some, many of them don't even think they're doing something bad. They really think they're trying to help, but it is, it is disgusting the level of abuse I've seen. And so when you show up with a real product that actually works, that's not possible. That can't be true beyond a PowerPoint slide. I've never seen that before. And so that a lot of it's just building trust. Between the communities that are not used to talking to each other anymore because it's been so much

Tim Winkler: 00:18:34

poison in the well for so long. Yeah, we'll pull on that through a little bit, a little bit more to on on how to build that trust and some of those tactics to get those products in the right hands of the right folks. But, um, let's kick over to Paul. Uh, so Paul, you know, uh, you know, Ian kind of. Briefly touched on it, but talk to us a little bit, a little bit more about how you all kind of serve as this shepherd, you know, for, for these, these, these founders, these, these startups that are trying to navigate these, uh, uncharted waters, like, uh, uh, what is it that you all are doing here? Tell me, tell me some, a couple of examples of how this, uh, house palace is serving.

Paul Benfield: 00:19:12

Yeah, so I'll start with the best case scenario, right? Um, well, the team take a step back. Um, I have this thing where I said there is no single person in the Department of Defense that can write a check that individual does not exist. Like, in the commercial sector, you go find the CFO or the CEO and they'll buy something right there, right? Does not exist in the Department of Defense. So while there's no one that can say yes. It seems like every single person can say no, right? And so how do you get through all that? So best case scenario? Here's what you can do. Uh, you find your end user, your customer, and normally that's, uh, you know, a young person on the ground or in a staff job in an operation center using the software holding the metal, right? That's the that's the validator. That's who we're all trying to target. Uh, Get improved tech to get anything to that person. You need a contract vehicle and that's a pipeline through which money flows. Um, and it could be an OTA. It could be and I'm not going to explain these acronyms and throw out some alphabet soup could be a sever. It could be through D. I. U. could be an OTA. It could be all of these things. Um, unlikely is it going to be a program of record that is a big, you know, big ticket dollar item that, you know, because you're a startup now, assuming you find an end user that likes your stuff and a contract vehicle, then you have to figure out what program office owns that contract vehicle to that end user and that program offices likely bought something slightly less effective, maybe slightly more expensive for many, many years. And their incentive is just to hit renew and, you know, do that again over and over and over again. So what you really need is a champion, some senior leader in the military that can drive down requirements and say to that program office, no, no, no, I want something new. I want new requirements. Uh, so imagine, uh, I know I laid that out. It sounds complicated. We haven't got the complicated part. Um, so end user contract vehicle, a program office and a champion. Imagine you're somebody from Austin or Boston or, you know, Silicon Valley got this great tech. Don't know anything about D. O. D. Not only do you not know how to navigate that, you don't even know how to identify where to, where to start with that. And so it's a lot of stakeholder mapping and, and being able to identify where the correct, uh, the current pain points are for certain people. And then get that tech in front of those people, uh. You know, as quick and sometimes as often as it takes repeated hits

Tim Winkler: 00:21:58

as you can. And so palace is basically taking on a lot of all that heavy lifting of doing the steps on on your behalf on the founder's behalf

Paul Benfield: 00:22:10

We try to now now palace also works with small startups and fortune 10 global companies. So it's not all the same. And there is a spectrum of support by the way. Um, you know, if you're a startup, every single dollar is the most single important single dollar you've got. Right. And so not everyone can afford. a team of retired generals to go beat the bushes for them to find them business. Um, maybe you have, you know, so palace is one style of consulting and just us, we have a spectrum. Maybe you have just one or two retired military folks or folks that come out of government as a, you know, advisory board members that help out your company. Um, maybe you just want a project of, I just need a kind of a, uh, Um, a mapping of the ecosystem. Tell me what the front doors look like. And then I'll go from there. And sometimes it gets into organizational management as the companies grow and start building sales teams and field service reps and customer engagement and all of that. Um, we can be sort of, uh, uh, chief of staff kind of by default and help organize and synchronize that kind of stuff.

Tim Winkler: 00:23:26

So I, I'm, uh, I want to kind of like play this into, into your court and in terms of like, you know, specifically, you know, with turbine one, like the areas that really can't. You know, came in your, in your viewpoint of like extremely beneficial because it sounds to me like you've already had some experience, some experience here, right? You know, some former military experience, um, have served, you know, directly in the government for some different agencies as well. Um, you know, so what was it that you were like, you know, seen as one of the more advantageous pieces of this partnership, uh, specifically for like Turbine 1? A partnership with Palace? Yeah, uh, I'll double down on, uh, the language

Ian Kalin: 00:24:09

of communication, but also in the earliest days trying to figure out the most important problems to solve, you know, in the commercial industry. Uh, if I was a new shopping app, I can build it. I can go to a shopping mall. I can guess, you know, random people to test it out and give me feedback. I can run back to the engineers and have a new version of the next day. To test something in the field with the U. S. military is virtually impossible, and many people believe it's illegal. It's not, but they think it is. And so, how the hell do you get something to a person who really needs it, who thinks they're not allowed to talk to you, let alone special operations. Just, whatever. Stereotypical big army, just going to a hospital or something. Like, hey, this could save a life. Want to check it out? They'd be like, no, no, no, I'm not allowed to touch it. I'm not, what are you doing with my data? Like, you can't, you can't just do that. Um, so then how can you understand that the actual customer needs and user needs. Iterate and get paid for the, there's a very complex system that prevents what is normal in tech life for industry or commercial direct consumer models to apply it to the government. It can still be done. But in the earliest days, figuring out, well, can you just help me figure out, like, if you were the end user, it wasn't that long ago that you were blank. Or maybe it's your advisory network. Hey, you used to be in charge of this giant operation. What were some of your biggest pain points, sir? You know, like, and then, you know, the retired three star general may not really know, honestly, what's going on, and the good ones will tell you. I was, it's been a long time since I've held a rifle, but I'll tell you what my soldiers were demanding, and what I'm pretty sure they still don't have. That's magic. Because that at least the signal that any entrepreneur can take to say, all right, you know, I'm only 80 percent confident, but we should work in this prototype, get it out to an exercise and to a demo for conferencing and get a booth and like, hey, just talk to real life folks who are in uniform in the right environments that can give you feedback. So, it cuts out the death spiral of the chicken and the egg. Like, it gives you a starting point to have a trusted advisor. And that was, I would say, the early days of what was most valuable in the partnership between Turbine One and

Tim Winkler: 00:26:08

Palace. Yeah, it's fascinating. I, I've, um, grew up in the D. C. area, and, you know, we've, we've obviously, you know, talked to a lot of, you know, big government contractors, um, you know, there's a lot of these 8A, like, services, uh, contracting companies that have popped up, which it's great to, to give these, these smaller, you know, um, Smaller businesses and opportunity to come in and help from a services perspective, but from a product perspective, it's a whole nother ballgame and to see that divide and to see. Like, yeah, I like the way you describe it of like trying to speak a different language, you know, it is extremely complicated. Um, but I will say that I've, I have seen, uh, just in the last, you know, in the last year, you know, a big, uh, a big pivot, a big push to, to really be a little bit more open to, you know, accepting of. Uh, this commercial technology and really like understanding and almost like looking in the mirror of like, you're right, you know, we need to modernize, like we need to move quicker. We need to figure out how to solve these problems for war fighters and so forth. And other, other examples, like in space travel and such. Um, so to, to, to see a firm like palace, I really see a. Huge use case, um, uh, you know, cause even being here in the DC area, like, you know, you pull somebody from Austin has got no idea what it's, you know, what this environment can be like, it's, it's extremely complicated. So certainly, uh, a valuable partnership, um, I can see you all serving and so I, you all also have a venture arm. Do you all, uh, invest in any specific, um, you know, verticals, uh, dual use tech, uh, anything that, that comes top of mind. Yeah, it's, uh,

Paul Benfield: 00:27:51

other than dual use, it's tech agnostic. Um, uh, we prefer, and it's not always the case, but we prefer to have a consulting relationship with them. Um, because of the SPV model, uh, you know, we can't spread risk across all of the investments. So, you know, that whole, we're willing to take eight strikeouts to get one home run in our fund. We, we can't do that because each deal has different LPs. How do you mitigate the risk? Well, uh, instead of getting a quarterly, uh, update, you know, on, on what the company is doing, we want to help not just build the go to market strategy, but help execute that go to market strategy. Um, but yeah, we've done seed investment. We've done a follow on to up to C. Um, and so it's. Uh, kind of wide ranging, but generally we will sidecar a small part of the cap table for a, you know, a seed series, a company that we know really, really well that we've gotten to know over the year or two.

Tim Winkler: 00:28:55

Okay. So it's, it's a lot of, it's based on, you know, you've, you've maybe worked with them in the past or you, you've got some intel on them just generally speaking, you know, from a, an investment perspective and maybe it's not just from the palace, um, point of view, but you know, what is it that you would say, you know, makes a, a tech startup particularly appealing or promising in the eyes of, of investors and, and government agencies is there. Okay. Things that you pick up on that you're like, Oh, this will probably resonate well, um, you know, in this a little bit more regulated type of space, not getting too specific on like, you know, you can talk verticals, but I'm trying to think if there's like other things that, that you pick up on. No, I mean,

Paul Benfield: 00:29:38

I think, and some people, by the way, there's kind of disagreement out there in the market on this, but, uh, in my personal opinion. Uh, I think you kind of have to have not have to, but it's helpful to have a commercial revenue It does two things simultaneously One the valley of death is a real thing. Um, and uh, you know A lot of people like to throw out the winners who made it as startups of, you know, the Anduril and Palantir and Shield and, um, SpaceX even, right? Um, they all had billionaires behind them that could subsidize the, the length of time it took them to grow. Um, if you're a startup without a billionaire in your back pocket, It might be helpful to have some commercial revenue, uh, wait for that government contract to hit.

Tim Winkler: 00:30:28

Yeah, it brings up a good point. That was on my list. Um, we're talking about like sales cycles, um, you know, in timelines, you know, what, what are some, what are some of these timelines that you've seen, um, you know, quick, you know, quickest, longest, um, averages, uh, for, for founders out there that are. thinking about making that leap and, and, um, you know, trying to figure out kind of runway they might want to expect before, uh, something might hit. Yeah,

Paul Benfield: 00:30:58

Ian, I don't know if you want to take this. You've lived it.

Ian Kalin: 00:31:00

Yeah, uh, I mean, I want to talk a lot more about the venture side too. I mean, I'm a venture backed startup. So you're, you're asking the investor, but I'm also the, the, the founder of you. I have some, uh, maybe some different opinions than what's opposite to open the door for opportunity as a direct answer to your question to certain norms. The normals in the Department of Defense is to get a program of record, which is the goal of every single defense tech vendor, whether you're super big or super small, you're chasing these programs. On average, the system wants you to take and 8 to 10 years. 8 to 10 years in general, if you follow the rules of requirement is written, goes through his congressional appropriations, gets an RFP. Gets on the street and then the first one that comes in, that's the way the system is supposed to work broadly speaking. And I should not mention the names of the companies because I have insider information on exactly how long my fellow founders have taken the absolute top tier 4 or 5 years before they get from. I have a product and have a program of record that is funding that product. So the appetite and by the way, every single case, some amount of lobbying was required. So, the venture capital community does not want 4 or 5 years to get a massive ARR, annual recurring revenue rate of return on investment for their check, but that's the way the best of the best in class can achieve it. So, there is a fundamental gap in the, the, the venture, most venture models. And what the best of the best can do in defense tech, that is, uh, that window is closing in a better way, I guess, because folks like Alice have SPDR, which is creative, nontraditional form of investment. Um, there's a lot of reasons why the venture community is struggling with that, but that that's a. You know, I'm not prescribing a solution, just describing the market. That is what everyone needs to go into with open eyes and a clear set of expectations. If they are to succeed, one final point about the program record that may demystify it for folks that are relatively new to the space. This was actually given to me by another investor. So, you know, I may, I have some fun making fun of them, but they do teach me a few things along the way. You got to have to think of it as a FDA approval. If you have a new drug that can cure cancer until it's FDA approved, good luck selling it in a pharmacy. It's not going to happen. Right? And you have to kind of think in that model of all defense tech is kind of in this experimentation mode of, yeah, it may save a life, but I don't believe it until Congress tells me to do it. And once that program of record, the analogous FDA approval comes in, that's when it starts to really go out and scale. And so I think if the biotech industry, healthcare industries, which I've worked in, took those, they figure that out longer. There's actually, there's a whole system and an ecosystem around organizing around what may be flawed, but at least there's a transparent system, semi transparent system of how to get to that level. The defense industry doesn't have that level of transparency. And so most people don't know how to go through that set of processes. Uh, or think that you only need a billionaire to be a successful tech company. You don't, but there, there aren't enough like numbers in the space yet outside of the, whatever, 25 or 50 founders or so of us that are actually breaking through that we need more of these stories to be told so that others can start to imitate and ultimately institutionalize this degree of

Tim Winkler: 00:34:03

transformation. Yeah. And you know, once you've gotten to that, that Holy grail, like gotten on a contract. Um, you know, it's, it's a lot smoother. It's a little bit smoother to start getting into, getting into other areas because you've got a little bit of a past performance and like the importance of that, uh, Oh, it's bigger

Ian Kalin: 00:34:26

than that. It's like, it's almost illegal to not give you the money at that point. Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but not that much. It's like, so you said contract is like tears and levels is like the megas, the billion dollar deals, which are not weird by the way, which perhaps should be, but it is, there's a whole lot of billion dollar with a B. Bravo billion dollar contracts out there for a lot of interesting to attack that they made, by the way, probably sucks. I'll give you some examples of those 2, but then, like, that, you know, in the venture world, if you told an investor, hey, I'm going to get a billion dollar contract next year, they would laugh you out of the room and say, that's impossible. And yet it's super common. So there's this, like, misunderstanding what I would call the Tam, the total addressable market. Most investors don't really believe it. It's too good to be true. Right? Okay. But you can get what, you know, a classic stereotypical example of something called a small business innovation research grant or server. You can get a million dollar server as a, you know, 2, 2 folks in a garage with a dog and, you know, maybe have a great idea. Those are, those are actually quite nice. And that's a good program. It's somewhat competitive and there's abuse in it, but, you know, not terrible. Um, so, like, that's fine, but that's a million dollars. If you went to whatever a dating app company, good luck getting a million dollars in revenue in your 1st, 6 months is virtually impossible. Right? Right. So, like, that's where you say the contract is like, well. You can actually get a lot if you have something that can help somebody in a meaningful way and get to 25 million dollars in annual revenue long before you ever even think about a program of record. They're just, that's a different, you need to add three zeros to the end of that forecast before you start getting in that scale.

Tim Winkler: 00:36:00

Yeah. You know, have you, have you seen any like more, like more recent, uh, you know, uh, outlets beyond the traditional, like, for example, I, I, I saw, you know, um, what's the army's X Techs prime competition. Yeah. You know, now, is that something that, you know, you wouldn't have seen five years ago? Have you seen more of like this kind of shift towards like, You know, these pitch events, right? Like we're trying to be more open to hearing and getting these, the visibility of, of what kind of technology is being built. Um, have you seen more of that, uh, from, you know, either of you? Yeah, I

Ian Kalin: 00:36:40

mean, well, I'm curious about Paul's perspective. Yes, and there's a lot of good people out there that are very, very well intentioned. Again, they're trying to help. They're trying to work on the Valley of Death. And I'm careful when I say this. For most founders, I've cautioned against it. You may waste your time thinking that they can do anything of great value. That's not that the people, right? I'm not trying, but the system is set up to fail and no one's telling the truth about it. Because that money may be in 1 specific instance, we were told, hey, great. Congratulations on a small little project. Now, you have to be subcontracted to a giant firm who may or may not take all of your data. Hey, here's a server, but it's not going to have any transition. I never will. Hey, here's a creative research and development agreement with a really high power organization, but they don't have a dime to spend on it. Really? All they're trying to do is get free labor. All right, so there's a lot of well, intentioned innovation theater, or even just good old fashioned attempts. That are increasing in quantity, but the quality of those, I would not recommend if I was ever a defense tech investor, I would say, you know, maybe give it a try. Maybe, but that is not the path to scale. Avoid those. If you can't.

Tim Winkler: 00:37:50

Interesting.

Paul Benfield: 00:37:51

Yeah, I mean, they're, they're everywhere. Um, they're down to individual units now, you know, uh, 18, their 1 core for brag, just, you know, put on a series of sharp tanks and they have, uh, a program for. Both outside, uh, industry, but also internal, like they want, you know, young soldiers, men and women to like solve their own problems. Hey, for, they'll give them grants to go, uh, you know, solve these problems. Uh, but I agree with Ian. Um, they are, they all come in a lot of different shapes and sizes and flavors of quality. And so. Before you go all in on what sounds like something that's a really good idea. That's another benefit to some of these outside advisors, you know, have someone on your board who has done some of the defense contracting would say, hey, look. Uh, make up an acronym because you can, like, if you give me 4 letters in the alphabet, I can turn it into a current innovation program. App fit. Uh, I mean, there's just,

Ian Kalin: 00:38:49

yeah, there's so

Paul Benfield: 00:38:53

many, yeah. And you don't, there's no way for you to know, unless you've got a little bit of currency to say, Hey, actually that one got there, their funding got cut last year and they're on the way down or. A DIU is going to get about a billion dollars next year, which is great, except, uh, they're going to focus on high end war fighting stuff now and no longer going to be that sort of front door to Silicon Valley. That's all very, very, very, uh, um, theoretical, hypothetical,

Ian Kalin: 00:39:23

theoretical,

Tim Winkler: 00:39:24

but

Paul Benfield: 00:39:27

I mean, that's the kind of information you need before you, you know, opportunity cost of chasing one of these things down.

Tim Winkler: 00:39:32

Yeah. Yeah. That's the

Mike Gruen: 00:39:33

point. Yeah. So I wanted to pull on something a little bit, because back when I was doing, I've worked at several government contracting, we had products and whatever, um, the, the snake oil, I think, is all around on all sides. There's products that are trying to be sold in the government that can't really perform. But there's all of these advisors, a whole sea of people who tell you they can help you Get your product in to whatever name your, you know, Department of Defense, whatever. How do you vet those guys? Like, how do you pick that partner? How do you know that these guys aren't just

Paul Benfield: 00:40:06

blowing smoke? Well, if they can get me, if they make any guarantees, automatically kick them out. It's the US government, right? And also, if they give you a ridiculous timeline, you know, Hey, you know, you can start seeing revenue in a couple months. Oh, yeah. We can get you five servers in two months. You know, I mean, this sounds terrible. And if I were on the other side, if I were the CFO of a company, I would want quantifiable deliverables from an advisor that I know I'm getting my money's worth. What is my own return on investment? Um, we are very cautious about advisors that give a whole lot of quantifiable deliverables. Um, because even if it's well intentioned, it becomes measures of performance versus measures of effectiveness. You know, oh, I got you to see 17 people in the army. Yeah, well, none of them can write a check. None of them have any authority to move this program along the line. So. Um, it's tough. I founders are, you know, startups who are looking for advisors are at a distinct disadvantage about finding the snake old salesman in the in the advisor. I think

Mike Gruen: 00:41:13

1 of the stories I had was, um, I don't know exactly how we managed to get a senator to write to get an earmark for 1 of our things and walking into that customer. And the customer having zero interest in talking to us, they're like, I don't know. I just have to spend 2 million on you guys, but I have better things to do with my time. So like, clearly this was like, great, we got this 2 million, but it wasn't going to, it wasn't going to lead anywhere. And it was a lot like an opportunity to cost probably, you know, in the grand scheme of things wasn't worth it. And God knows how much we spent to get

Tim Winkler: 00:41:52

Well, let's, let's kind of, you know, close up with a couple of, a couple of questions specific to, you know, what, you know, how, how do you guys feel about, you know, the future of, you know, where this is going? Like, do you, how do you see the landscape of tech startups and, and the government train kind of evolving over the next five to 10 years? Because I will say that. There are, there's, you know, we're talking a lot about, you know, maybe defense and national security, but there are other areas to like, for example, I think specific to, um, you know, we talked to a lot of like space tech startups and there's been a massive shift in, and I guess the quickness that they're moving, because for one, you know, they've been able to, you know, launch You know, rockets and satellites and and and quicker fashion or reusable rockets, right? And so there's been things that have helped kind of move the needle. And, you know, it's given, um, I think companies that were primarily commercial a little bit more of this into interest and like, okay, maybe we we have an angle here. Um, where do you all see, yeah, where do you all see this kind of marriage between commercial and, um, and government over the next five to 10 years? It's a very broad question, but I'm just, you know, is there some, some optimism? Is there, you know, status quo where, where do we sit? So I guess,

Paul Benfield: 00:43:14

I mean, look, yes, there's optimism. I mean, it's, it is. And it's funny, like Ian said, you know, everyone acknowledges this is a problem. It's just not enough. People are doing anything about it. Well, I can tell you what I was in there five or 10 years ago. People were acknowledging it was a problem. So it's, it's progress. It's insanely slow progress, but, um, I also want to kind of a non sequitur, but a quick caveat of all the we're dumping on the bureaucracy of department of defense, the fault is 99 percent Congress who dictate word for word, how we buy things and whether we can buy it or not. And even when we say this is old and obsolete, we don't want it anymore. They just demand that we buy it anyway. Um, But there are a lot of authorities that exist right now to be more proactive, to be more innovative. Um, there's a lot of efforts, to Ian's point, maybe we're, the pendulum is swinging to too many innovation efforts to where now it's more confusing, but yes, I mean, I'm optimistic. Uh, the, the writing is on the wall. We're just not going fast enough.

Ian Kalin: 00:44:18

Yeah, I would add, uh, despite my rage at the bad actors, I've never been more optimistic about the Cambrian explosion of tech startups that I'm seeing in the sector right now. It's a really fun market to be in and it does feel a little bit of like, you know, the underdog, which is part of the grid and character that's ultimately required to even survive on a daily basis in this market. Um, but there are. Milestones from a real macro, almost economic perspective, and then I'll give like a micro example on the macro side, the asset class of defense tech, uh, hasn't had a lot of success stories beyond Palantir and SpaceX. Then if you look at like 70 years of history, there was whatever, roughly 10 companies, Lockheed, Boeing, General Atomics, whatever, that like kind of dominated the market were famously cautioned by Eisenhower and his farewell address. That basically, that, that oligopoly stood where it was for a long time. Until Palantir and SpaceX came in and at least one famous example, they sued the government, forcing the government to buy from them. That is a very billionaire move. That was like, Rob. Oh, sir. I can't believe you got away with that. Like, as soon as that happened, other things started changing. The law is quite literally changed as referenced by some of the acronyms that Paul was talking about. And from these new organizations and new, what are called contracting vehicles in our sector, all these new companies started showing up. And that's like, Whatever 2nd, 3rd generation, I guess, um, that have some famous names. And so, in the earliest stages of defense tech and new technologies, everyone's basically watching a couple of bigs, like and role, like shield. I know the companies like it. These later stage series, the series, the startups primary example, if they have a super easy IPO, then everyone's going to lose their mind on our category. If they get hit in their IPOs, and it's a destructive down round. A little bit of, I'm, I'm, I'm not an investor, but, uh, similar stories to what I loosely describe as a consumer of the information. Some of the struggles that pounder had an IPO. If whatever Hawkeye 360 all these other companies, if they explode into the asset class, well, guess what's going to happen with a lot of success. A lot more money is going to flood that sector. And companies like mine and dozens of others are going to get interest that right now we're fighting to even get attention for because people fundamentally think it's just too soon in most cases to make transformative investments on the buy side of new tech and on the investment side of investing or spurring some of the product level innovation. So, uh, that I think that's the watch in the next 5 years. That's what to watch out for. On a 10 year scale, we're losing the arms race with China. And when are people going to be terrified about that? Either it's a problem, it's an existential threat, or it's not really a big deal. The national security doctrine, public policy, public statements show very clearly where our nation is focused and trying to encourage our national security, build partnerships, make safe, be responsible about it and fundamentally bring an ethical conduct into these operations. Right now, we're my opinion. Our nation is not a leader in those technologies. We are falling behind. And again, everyone knows it. They're just afraid to talk about it. So then from a micro perspective, what do we do about it? You know, a very personal note in the end, although I'm, you know, cautioning other founders, be careful what you get offered. Be careful about free labor. Be careful of the opportunity cost. That does not mean don't take and that I have not benefited personally and with my company from extraordinary championship from, uh, American service members who have taken a gamble, gone the extra mile, you know, gone home to their kids later that night, just so they can file some paperwork on my company's behalf, offer to create a, that may provide me security clearance someday. Like that's the stuff that actually does make a difference. And it can feel very bureaucratic, but those individual Uh, champion points are ultimately how you push the ball down the field. That's what makes it possible for anything new to fundamentally enter into the national service.

Tim Winkler: 00:48:01

Yeah, it's well said. And I can kind of speak to like, uh, from a, a talent perspective, right? I think this is, this is where we spend a lot of our time is, you know, we've, we've predominantly been dabbling in the commercial startup space, startups scale up. And, um, you know, sadly, you know, with the, you know, with the, the, the financial downturn in the last year and Silicon Valley bank having, you know, their, their whole episode, um, it's really put a, it's really put a, uh, a wrench in the, in funding across the commercial markets. And so a lot of the technologists now are, are. Are are concerned with, you know, stability and longevity. So, they're actually looking for opportunities that have some. A little bit more of a, you know, financial, you know, security. And so they are looking to more regulated industries right now and we're seeing it. And so it would be just, you know, it's just a shame to, you know, we want to make sure like we're not, we're, we're taking the best of the best, some of the, the brightest engineers that are in our country and putting them towards some of these most challenging projects and. You know, if we can cut some of this red tape and I make it so difficult to make the connection, like, I think that's what we're all trying to to get to, um, so, you know, for companies that are out there like turbine one, I mean, it's fantastic opportunity for, you know, some of these folks to. You know, find some, some footing in a company that's kind of juggling both sides of the equation. Like I think these

Ian Kalin: 00:49:34

duels, but yeah, to put it out there, we're hiring veterans and we're hiring engineers. So, you know, hopefully there's a way for us to continue that conversation. If anyone's listening and is interested.

Tim Winkler: 00:49:44

Yeah, there's absolutely engineers listening to that are probably interested and, and it, you know, just to, to cap off that point, it's just like dual use startups, I think are becoming really, really appealing. Because you can bounce back and forth when one side's lagging a little bit. But, but, you know, again, I think this conversation's around, how do you get that footing in, in that other sector? How do you get in that government space? And, you know, we, we'd love to see more of that happening and more of that happening, you know, with less, you know, bureaucracy. So, um, so that's all, all we've got. Um, we'll, we'll kind of transition real quick here into our, our final segment. And just kind of wrap things up with, uh, with the fun segment called the five second scramble. So I'm going to ask each of you guys a series of questions. You've got to give me your response within five seconds. Uh, a little rapid fire Q and a, if you will, um, some business, some personal, you know, we won't air horn you off if you don't, you know, if you, if you go over the five seconds. So, um, let's, uh, let's go ahead and jump into it. We're gonna, we're gonna start with you in, and then we'll get to you, Paul. Um, Ian, you're, you're ready for it. Okay, I'm ready. All right, let's do it. All right, explain, um, explain Turbine One to me as if I were a five year old. We help people find what they're looking for. Could you, uh, give me a description of what your company culture is like?

Ian Kalin: 00:51:14

We have core values that include, uh, embracing grits and celebrating veteran experience. What

Tim Winkler: 00:51:23

kind of technologists thrives at Turbine One? Uh, the kind that

Ian Kalin: 00:51:28

are really, really excited to hang out on a military base. And ask lots of questions about the worst parts of people's days when they're trying to help our nation.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:37

What can folks be most excited about over at Turbine One heading into 2024?

Ian Kalin: 00:51:44

The overwhelming opportunities we have to improve people's lives and help their work be safer.

Tim Winkler: 00:51:53

If you could have any superpower, what would it be and why? Oh, God. Oh.

Ian Kalin: 00:52:01

No, I have three kids. So I think the press comes up all the time. Uh, time travel to, uh,

Tim Winkler: 00:52:10

that's great. If you had to pick one, we'll get different questions. Different questions. Okay.

Paul Benfield: 00:52:21

I was, I'll just use my time travel to go first.

Tim Winkler: 00:52:26

That's actually a great answer. Um if you had to pick one fast food joint to establish as the first restaurant on Mars, which one would it be?

Ian Kalin: 00:52:38

peri chicken from Nando's. Uh, so I just think that would build interstellar diplomacy.

Tim Winkler: 00:52:47

Yeah, Nando's, uh, great plug. We're, we're, we're fishing for a Nando's, uh, you know, sponsor.

Ian Kalin: 00:52:53

I think it's fast food. I actually don't know, but it's like my favorite fast

Tim Winkler: 00:52:56

food. Okay. Yeah, yeah, that, that, that, that, that'll, uh, solid choice of solid. Yeah, it's a good choice. Um, What's something that you like to do, but you're not very good at?

Ian Kalin: 00:53:10

I don't think i'm very good at anything. So music

Tim Winkler: 00:53:14

Okay. All right. Uh, what is a charity or a corporate philanthropy that is near and dear to you blue

Ian Kalin: 00:53:22

bear school of music San francisco where I live, uh, the extraordinary the original school of rock an extraordinary set of teachers as authentic a quality superstar teacher can be For this real, a real passion for improving people's lives in particular, they bring music education to schools that have had their funding cut. They bring the instruments, they bring the teachers, and I've seen very directly what it's like to give a person who cannot afford a guitar. To give it to them in their hands for the 1st time, and to see that teach them how to make some music, it's, it's overwhelming. Uh, and I recommend everyone consider a charity like that.

Tim Winkler: 00:53:55

No, it's fantastic. Yeah, we'll, we'll make sure to plug that in the show notes and build some more awareness for that. All right, uh, closing out last couple of questions. What's something that you're very afraid of? Of

Ian Kalin: 00:54:09

Paul stealing my answer.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:14

Fair enough, yeah. The best jokes of Paul traveling back and forth. It's a circle, it's like, I got you, I got you, come back. I got you, Paul, I got you. And uh, we'll, we'll close it with who is the greatest superhero of all time? Uh, my wife. Oh, wildcard answer. Nice.

Ian Kalin: 00:54:34

She is, uh, she's the strongest person I've ever met.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:36

Awesome. All right. Well, you just earned yourself some, some bonus points with the family. Uh, all right. Well done. We're going to switch it over. Um, Paul, are you ready?

Paul Benfield: 00:54:48

Yeah. Now I feel all the pressure.

Tim Winkler: 00:54:50

All right. Let's, let's do it. Uh, what is your favorite stage of a startup to invest in? Uh,

Paul Benfield: 00:54:59

it's a good question. I, I, like A to B, I mean, and also by the way, the stages have gotten kind of gotten muddled, but you know, You got some traction and they're I really like when they are growing the team because they've got some success and now it's about executing

Tim Winkler: 00:55:12

for the customer. What's your favorite part of the culture at Palace?

Paul Benfield: 00:55:18

Uh, very flat, very matrixed organization. There's no hierarchy or anything like that. Um, everyone and one of our culture, uh, uh, culture values is, uh, we do windows. Which I realize is a generational thing. Like a lot of other younger folks don't know what that means. Like, no, like we clean when we're willing to do anything for, for clients. Nice. I have one kid says we jump out of windows. I like the motivation, but that's not what we're going

Tim Winkler: 00:55:46

with. Yeah, that's a terrible value. What, uh, what technologies are you most excited about investing in over the next 12 months? Oh,

Paul Benfield: 00:56:00

12 months. That's tough. Um, uh, probably not in the rules. I'm gonna change your answer, uh, or your question farther out. Uh, let's space logistics, you know, I'm not, I'm less interested about another launch provider that's either slightly better or slightly cheaper, but. You know, somewhere out there are companies that are building the shovels for the space gold mine. Um, that's, that's

Tim Winkler: 00:56:22

what I'm interested in. Yeah, I like that. Um, what is, um, I'm sorry, who's your biggest role model and, uh, why do they inspire you? Oh, uh,

Paul Benfield: 00:56:36

that's impossible to answer. It's a conglomeration of a lot of senior leaders that I've, uh, served alongside, um, from, uh, so when I was a brand new second lieutenant, we got deployed to Iraq, um, even though I had time in the army enlisted before I was overwhelmed as an infantry platoon leader, had a first sergeant there who was one of my, you know, all time favorite mentors. And then I had in the same unit, a major who was the battalion XO kind of took me under his wing and I got to serve alongside people like Stan McChrystal and Admiral McRaven and I mean, just crazy, crazy, uh, compelling leaders. So, conglomeration of a whole bunch of people over a long career.

Tim Winkler: 00:57:23

Yeah, that's a load. That's a loaded question. It's a tough one. Um, what is a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Paul Benfield: 00:57:32

So, two quick answers. One, the American Red Cross, just because they've been a part of my life ever since I enlisted in the army and saw what they did for service members all over the world. Um, and, uh, we were fortunate enough to do some work with them, uh, at palace a few years ago. So, just, I know it's a big kind of corporate philanthropy, but, uh, super huge fan. And another one I'd be shot at work if I didn't bring up palace foundation. Um, we have a 501 c3. It's about the next generation of national security professionals. And we get, uh, generally grad students, sometimes undergrad who are interested in what 90 percent of the time they're taking international affairs and think they're going to go work in the State Department. And then we get them and say, Hey, there's this, you know, defense tech. There's defense investing. There's also hard power defense and the intelligence community. Um, and we get six or eight a semester, actually pay them in D. C. isn't which is crazy as our fellows. And it's just fascinating every semester to see the quality of young folks coming through, uh, with just incredibly impressive resumes at a very young age. So it's another thing to be optimistic about is, uh, the futures is in

Tim Winkler: 00:58:45

good hands. Awesome. Yeah, again, we'll, we'll plug both of those in the show notes as well. Um, on a lighter note here, what was your favorite cereal as a kid? Oh, it's easy. Lucky Charms. Whoa,

Paul Benfield: 00:58:57

nice. Yeah, and I never got it that much because, you know, I'd be gone in a day and my parents would be all pissed off. So

Tim Winkler: 00:59:07

It's uh, it's uh, it's one of the, one of the, the goat cereals for sure. Yeah. Um, do you have a celebrity doppelganger? Not

Paul Benfield: 00:59:17

that I know of. I don't, they have those like, uh, filters now that you can plug in and get your, I don't know who it would be. No one attractive. Give us

Tim Winkler: 00:59:26

a second. Give us a second. Let me just pull up one of these filters here for you. Everybody's beautiful. Yeah. Um alright, what uh if you could live in a fictional world from a book or movie, which one would you choose? Wow, that's a

Paul Benfield: 00:59:43

good one. Uh I'm currently reading sort of a weird uh uh historical alternative history fiction kind of weird thing about how King Arthur came about. And the downfall of the Roman Empire and the rise of the King Arthur myth. Um, so that's current, so

Tim Winkler: 01:00:04

I'll pick that one. Like a, like a Camelot, uh, kind of Sam. Yeah, exactly. Um, what's the worst fashion trend you've ever followed? Oh,

Paul Benfield: 01:00:19

oh, you don't get this. This, no, this is, it's, I know exactly what it is and I'm going to say it. It might be a little niche for some of your followers, but. Ian, I don't know if the Navy had this, but around the army boot camps, the enlistees, the first time they're allowed off base. And then they've got like the, the organist, the unit t shirt tucked into some ill fitting jeans. And you're normally wearing combat boots. And so you just look like you've been in the army for about two and a half minutes and you walk around town thinking you're hot shit because you're in the army and no one cares. But they all dress the same. They all dress with ill fitting jeans and some sort of military paraphernalia tucked in. And army boots, probably a baseball hat

Tim Winkler: 01:01:00

too. Oh, that's solid. Yeah. Well, let's, let's get a picture to, to post up, uh, for you for a list. Luckily it was pre social media. So those, all

Ian Kalin: 01:01:10

right,

Tim Winkler: 01:01:12

we'll close it out with this last one. What was your dream job as a kid?

Paul Benfield: 01:01:17

Uh, dream job as a kid and I honestly, it was the army. Um, so, uh, my, my dad's side of the family for many generations was U. S. Navy. My mom's side of the family for many generations was U. S. Army. And I really didn't know which one I wanted to do until I read the Tom Clancy book, Red Storm Rising, which I know is the red, I highly recommend, but set in the eighties of the war with the Soviets. And I'm like, wow, those guys stuck on that ship or having a miserable time. And I'd like the idea of walk around the woods and going camping. So it really came down to that.

Tim Winkler: 01:01:52

Good stuff. Well, yeah, I think on that note, we will, we will kind of wrap things up. I'd um, also say like, thank you both for, for your service. Um, thank you all for joining us. You've been fantastic guests. Uh, excited to continue tracking the, you know, this innovative work that you're both doing, um, trying to, you know, move the needle here within the defense tech, you know, industry. Um, and just, yeah, I appreciate you all, uh, joining us on the pod. It's a good time. Appreciate it.

Paul Benfield: 01:02:21

No, thanks for having us. And, uh, yeah, like Ian mentioned this earlier, it's incredibly important topic, a lot to be optimistic about, but there's also

Ian Kalin: 01:02:28

a lot of work to do. Yeah. Uh, I'm grateful for you putting this together and thank you to the extended network. You know, Paul and I would not have jobs if it was not for the people still serving all the, the, uh, the folks working in civil service who don't get enough. Thanks and credit money for what they're doing for the. You know, all the folks that are, you know, pumping leadership and money into these organizations. Um, that is ultimately why we're here, all of us, actually, strangely, right? Uh, and so we're grateful to be part of that team. And thanks again for giving us a chance here to just tell a few stories.