Frontiers: Exploring the World of Data | The Land of Limited Resources

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Hello

everyone, and welcome to Frontiers, exploring the world of data.

Frontiers dives into how people are using their data science minds

to shape organizations and change the landscape outside of big tech.

In each episode, we explore the far reaching corners of the world of data.

My name is Jasmine, and I'm your host for this series.

I myself am passionate about empowering people to make data

driven decisions, and I'm always amazed at how others do it every day.

Today, we are exploring the land of limited resources.

How to enable data driven changes when you have limited resources at your disposal.

And that leads us to introducing our guest for today, Emma Gibson.

I am fortunate enough to personally know Emma.

I first met her when we studied operations research at MIT.

Thank you.

I punched out after two years of my master's, but she pushed through

and persevered to get her PhD.

She is a brilliant mind and has focused on working in data analytics

and technology projects in resource limited settings, not just in the U.

S., but around the globe.

She's currently an engagement lead at Business Science Corporation in the U.

K., where she has quite a breadth of responsibilities, um, as we all know,

and especially her official job titles.

Thank Only go so far, but we'll cover more of her background as we go along.

So with that, I want to say, thank you so much for being here today, Emma.

It is such a pleasure and I am so excited for our discussion.

Lovely to be here.

Thank you.

All right.

So I wanted to start off with an icebreaker question that is like

tangentially related, arguably related to our topic of discussion when we talk

about limited resource environments.

So the question is, if you found yourself in a situation where you had

limited resources at your disposal, or you just had limited resource

environment, say, um, hypothetically a zombie apocalypse, what are five

things that would be in your grab bag?

Thank you.

Or your to go bag.

Um, I guess I'll go, I'll just put mine out there first.

I would have a bat for self defense cause you never know, you need

some, you know, have something hard.

Spam for food obviously.

Water, uh, because I think that's just a given.

I would also have rope, because I feel like rope's one of those things where,

like, you don't really think you need it until you need it, so rope, uh, I don't

know what I need it for, but I'm sure when I need it, it'll be really handy.

And then, um, Google Translate as the last thing.

So that's, like, my phone and my solar power charger.

I'm gonna include it as one item, because you can put a solar power

charger, like, On the case of a phone.

So yeah, I think it'd be really valuable to be able to translate to different

languages in that sort of situation.

So those are five of the things I would have.

Okay.

Well, uh, uh, I'm glad we've dealt with the counting multiple items as one issue.

Um, because I think my starting point is the first aid kit, which

is arguably probably unfairly broad.

Um, but yeah, I, I realize I, I'm, I'm quite severely deficient

in my understanding of how a zombie apocalypse would work.

Um, but, but one thing I've gotten very good at over the last few years is,

uh, intercontinental travel, um, you know, 10, 10 plus hour flights followed

by several trains and or buses and or taxis to, to, to get to a destination.

Um, so I, I have a pretty good go bag already, which is my plane bag that I

only ever have on me when I go on an airplane and when I'm traveling somewhere.

So, so, yeah, definitely first aid kits.

Um, uh, assorted, uh, band aids, uh, bandages, painkillers, um,

would be probably top of that list.

Um, next on the list, wouldn't be in the bag, but it would be

with me, would be really sturdy, comfortable, waterproof shoes.

Um, and an absolute must have.

Um, Next, uh, would probably be just a really unreasonable quantity

of probably very unhealthy snacks.

Okay, this is a lot of items.

Okay.

Okay.

Categories.

All right.

Here we are.

I understand categories.

Um, snacks.

I agree.

Um, I'm kind of assuming in a zombie apocalypse,

probably we'd lose Google.

Um, offline maps, which is a thing in airports, right?

When you haven't got your SIM card sorted out and your phone's not working

and you can't get onto the wifi.

So like some kind of offline maps, uh, a way to navigate myself.

I don't actually have like an Atlas or a map book or anything,

but I would have to find one.

Um, My last item, yeah, probably a water bottle.

Um, always a good idea.

Probably shouldn't be an afterthought either, but yeah.

Yeah.

That was like the last thing in your list.

Shows you my priorities.

Well, that's very, like, well thought out.

Like you're, I guess all your travels have really prepped you for this scenario.

No self defense.

It's all just like pure survival.

So I'm assuming you're going to just avoid the really populated areas and

just try to like go into a safe haven

somewhere.

Yeah.

Yeah, I am.

I am very clumsy.

Hence the need for very sturdy shoes.

And, uh, yeah, I don't think I'm winning any sort of self defense battles, but,

you know, maybe if I have a first aid kit, I can like pair up with someone

who can do that and I can just do the, like, trying to keep them alive

bit.

All right, we'll pair up, we'll pair up because we don't have

much overlap in our items.

Well, thank you very much for entertaining that, uh, that question.

So I want to, uh, move to the topic of discussion today.

This is a good warm up, um, into just very relevant warm up.

Uh, so we're here to talk about how you lean on and leverage your

inner data scientist to drive change in resource limited settings.

So you have worked in these sorts of environments for a number of years now,

and I was wondering if you could first.

Define what, you know, resource limited settings is like.

What does it mean to you?

Like, what is what do those environments look like for you?

And then speak a little bit about how you got into this arena in the first place.

Yeah, sure.

So, yeah, I mean, resource limited is a very broad and general term

that for me means something.

Fairly specific, um, and and that's sub Saharan Africa.

I'm from South Africa, so it's, it's, it's the place I grew up.

Um, and it's, it's really a place full of possibilities, but also.

A lot of needs that aren't being met, and I think, you know, there's

a lot of commonality across.

Most developing countries, you know, you'll see similar sorts of health

care challenges that need to be addressed there that are not the

same as what you would find in the U.

S.

or Europe or sort of really Well developed healthcare systems.

Um, so, so I think really the, the, the key there is it's, you know, it's a,

it's a place where there's both a lot going wrong in terms of needs not being

met, but also a lot of development.

Things are growing, um, really the, the types of problems I, I like to

solve are the ones where you create something new that wasn't there before.

So, so you're not just sort of optimizing, rearranging, moving

things around a little bit.

Um, you're, you're really meeting a need that that couldn't be met before.

Um, yeah.

And I mean, you know, I think in hindsight, uh, it, it, it, it sort

of comes out as a nice story as to how I ended up doing this, but.

You know, when I think about what got me here, eventually, I think, um, you

know, growing up in South Africa, um, there was, you know, the, the first

democratic elections, um, in my lifetime.

Okay.

I don't, I don't remember it.

I was a bit small at that point, but, you know, there was a sense of, of massive

inequalities and massive needs that need to be addressed, but also change.

But that was happening, and there was also, you know, a great

awareness of the fact that, you know, I, I went to a good school.

I got a good education that there's a lot of people who just don't have that.

Um, and and a frustration that why don't they have that?

Um, you know, now decades and decades of racial segregation

and unfair social systems.

You don't undo those in 10 years or even in 1 generation.

You know, that's something society is going to be grappling

with for a long time to come.

Um, but but the idea that we need to do something about that was was really key.

And I think the last thing was the, the, the, the HIV AIDS epidemic.

Um, you know, when, when that hit and hit so hard, um, in, in sub Saharan

Africa, um, it's kind of scary as a kid.

It was, it was sort of a little bit like living through COVID,

um, or what I imagined it was like to live through COVID.

If you were, you know, a young kid and didn't really understand

any of this and you were sort of.

Just hearing that a lot of people were dying and worried that this was going

to be your friends and your family.

Um, and so I think there's, there's sort of a, a catharsis there in being

an adult and being able to look at these problems from a more sort of.

Holistic kind of systemic perspective and and think, you know, I'm

not a doctor, but what can I do?

What can I contribute to that?

Um, yeah, so it's very, very, very challenging, also

very exciting space to be.

Yeah, you,

so it seems like you're really, as you're growing up,

and you've been around these sorts of issues, and you've seen what's going

on in the world, and you have that perspective, that's really what seemed

to inspire you to go into these areas.

I'm curious if that changed, did that change at all as you grew up, as you

got older, or has it Your motivation for being in this field kind of

stayed the same throughout your life.

I mean, I,

yeah, I definitely wouldn't claim that I had a

dream and then I made it happen.

This is all constantly evolving.

Um, you know, these are, these are all, uh, little pieces that we,

that we pull together into a story.

We tell ourselves that gives our life meaning.

Um, but I, I think those are the main pieces and most certainly,

um, it's, it's evolving.

You know, I think.

When I, when I started off, I studied applied maps and statistics.

Um, so, you know, I wanted to, I wanted to build the models

and I wanted to test the models.

Um, and that's really great.

And I still really like that.

Um, but you know, I found myself over the years slipping more

and more into get the data.

Um, there's lots of people who can build models, but, um, in the places in the

world where we need these models the most.

There's no data.

Um, and, and a lot of people sort of stop there and that's completely reasonable.

If you're a data scientist and there's no data, get out.

What are you doing?

Um, but, you know, I found a lot of satisfaction in that.

It's taken me way out of my comfort zone.

Um, you know, I, I didn't see myself building apps to, to

collect data, but, but here I am.

So I think it's.

You know, it's, it's, it's a new perspective that you can solve the problem

at many levels, and many people have to contribute to solving these problems.

And I've, I've sort of found a niche where I feel like, um, you know, there's,

there's not enough people looking there.

There's a lot of potential if we can, if we can get the data, um, but

getting it is a, is a big step and, and that's my current challenge, but

I hope it will continue to evolve.

Um, you know, learning, learning new things, trying new things

is, uh, is always a good way

to go about it.

Yeah, the whole, the, it seems like the constant, you know, where's the data?

Can we get the data?

Is there enough data?

Like, do we have data?

That seems to be a question that a lot of data scientists end up, you know, asking

themselves at one point in a project, uh, hopefully earlier than, than not.

Uh, but when it comes to your, uh, Your current work, can you speak a

little bit to, you know, what are, what are you currently working on or some

of the projects that are most like.

Projects are topics that have been most exciting for you in your journey so far.

Yeah, I mean, I'm always happy to to talk about what I'm

what I'm working on at the moment.

Um, it, it's, it's been a really phenomenal opportunity of a whole lot of

things coming together at the right time.

So.

Uh, in in sort of summary, we're, we're trying to build.

Um, electronic medical record systems for the 3rd largest hospital in the world.

Um, this is a hospital that happens to be, um, you know, in, in, in South Africa,

quite, quite near to where I grew up.

Um, despite being the 3rd largest hospital in the world, it is nowhere on the list of

the best resourced hospitals in the world.

Um, but, you know, this, this, this hospital called Krishani Barabanath,

um, academic hospital, it's, it's an absolutely phenomenal place.

Um, it's...

You know, it, it offers sort of the, the highest level of care that you

can get in a South African health care facility, which means they get all the

most complicated, uh, rare, tricky cases.

Um, it's, it's, you know, it's got far too little equipment, far too few

staff, far too little funding for, for the, the magnitude of the need that

it serves not only, you know, people in South Africa, but people travel

from other countries in Africa to get the kind of health care there that's

just not available to them otherwise.

Um, and, you know, it's, it's, it's a scenario where everyone's

doing the best with what their cat, what they, what they have.

And so, you know, data and and and digitizing information is

just not a priority when you're trying to 1st, save lives.

Um, and, and that is a huge loss because of the scope of the work that they do,

the complexity, the rarity of the cases that they handle, um, and just in general,

the, the, the massive lack of data in the healthcare space on African populations.

Um, you know, the.

The potential there, um, if that data can be used and harnessed for good is massive.

Um, and the hospital itself is is staffed with it's an academic hospital.

So, it's not only where doctors are taught, but it's where

doctors will do research.

You know, it's it's where the, the great minds are sort of gathered.

Um, so there's just, there's just massive potential in terms of the good that can

be done, um, not just in terms of patient care and making sure that the right

information is available when it's needed.

And the tests aren't repeated because the results were

printed and misplaced and so on.

Um, but, you know, setting standards for what we want health

care to look like in an African context and how to do it better.

Um, so, so into this whole, um, sort of perfect storm came,

um, a guy called Robbie Rosen, who's the founder of Nando's.

I don't, I know it's not that popular in the, in the US, but certainly

in South Africa and the UK, Nando's is a very well known name, but, um.

He's a really inspiring guy has been involved in a lot of philanthropy

in the healthcare space, um, in, in sub Saharan Africa, and he sort of

galvanized this, this coalition, um, the organization I work with is part

of it, um, the University of the which is, uh, the, the major medical school.

Um, associated with the hospital as part of it, um, sort of coming together

and saying, let's, let's tackle this.

Let's, let's try and do digitization of data at academic hospital.

Um, yeah, and so, you know, we started off in the pediatric

surgery department, which is a.

A little, but very significant chunk, um, and and we're growing from there.

Um, we're sort of working.

Day to day, like, in depth with clinicians, really

understanding their needs.

Um, trying to co design with them a solution that can actually work

in the very difficult context that they sort of exist in day to day.

Um, and that, you know, can, can ultimately not only make things better

for patients, make, make patient care better, but also give them the ability

to do the kind of research they need to improve things in the long run.

Yeah, when you were first talking about, you know,

the third largest, I was like.

And the fact that it's so under resourced, uh, I was, I was just astounded.

It just seems like such a big.

Uh, big challenge, you know, like the whole, the entirety of what

you're trying to tackle is huge.

Um, what are, I'm curious because of the arena that you're in is

just, it's a very unique arena.

I was wondering, what are the, what is it about this, these problems?

I mean, you talk about obviously like resource limited, um, but

can you speak more about like, what resources are limited?

Can you speak more detail on, on.

What it is about your environment that you're in that just makes it so unique

from, like, other hospitals, other than, you know, the scale and magnitude

and, um, the general lack of resources.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, it's, it's this

unique combination of, of extreme need, um, and extreme potential.

Um, it's.

It's a situation where, you know, simply just scaling up health

care requires a lot of resources.

It requires a lot of money.

It requires a lot of doctors.

These things are hard to come by.

They don't, you know, they don't appear out of thin air and in developing

countries in particular, it's, it's, it's extremely difficult, but.

Um, you know, to, to, to give you some examples, um, you know, the, this

hospital consisted of a 400 different buildings, um, and, you know, and, and

it's, it's sort of, it's sprung up as a campus more than a hospital, you know,

bits have been added on and at any given point in time, a large number of

these buildings will be undergoing some kind of, uh, renovation or improvement.

Um, but, but, you know, the, the doctors are, are, are wheeling patients in beds

between the buildings and holding an umbrella over the bed when they have to

walk through an area that's uncovered just because if there's money to be

invested, you know, um, investing it in fixing the essential equipment that's

keeping patients alive is more important than, than, you know, fixing other

things that are sort of nice to have, um, in terms of staffing, you know, the,

the hours that these doctors work, uh, the patients that they see the, the,

the load of work that they have is.

Yeah.

You know, sort of unprecedented, um, and it's, it's really a place where,

you know, it attracts people who are willing to go that extra mile.

The circumstances are so difficult that the people who are there, um,

you don't have to make a very clear decision about their attitude to it

that they have to see the opportunities.

They have to be willing to to sort of give it their everything.

Um, and so, you know, I think, you know, It's, um, it's just, it's really

great to see what that brings out in people, um, that, you know, these.

These are doctors who are doing, you know, maybe 15, 20 surgeries in a

day, potentially, and they're going home, and they're filling out the

paperwork, and they're capturing the data in bed with a cup of tea, because

they don't have administrative staff.

They don't have computers in the hospital to capture this data while they work.

Um, so just the scope of it is, is quite overwhelming, um, but the,

the potential that you can see that, you know, if we just had this,

if we just changed a few things.

The opportunities that that opens is is mind

blowing.

Yeah.

And when you're, when you're talking about the, the opportunities and the

potential, I'm curious how your background and the, the, the data minded person

that you are, how does that play into your current role and how you shape

or mold or move your organization in a, in a particular direction?

Yeah.

So I think, Yeah.

You know, when, when you're, when you're talking about collecting data

in these kinds of settings, you, you've got to do it with a purpose, right?

Nobody has time to let's just capture everything.

And maybe in 10 years time, some, you know, PhD student will

come in and write a paper on it.

Um, like, if.

If it's not useful, it doesn't get done.

They do not have the bandwidth to to to do things that are that

are just maybe nice to have.

So I think coming in with an operations research mindset is hugely valuable.

If you look at data information and you're immediately thinking

what problems could this solve.

What questions could this answer?

What are the pitfalls?

What are the concerns?

What are the assumptions that we're going to have to make?

Getting that baked into the data collection process, being able to

sort of see that through from start to finish is incredibly valuable.

Making sure that with the very limited, um, you know, resources that you've

got, you're targeting them appropriately just in terms of your data collection.

Um, so I think, I think that's been really huge.

And, and there's also a You know, just a, a problem solving element to

it, um, you know, knowing, knowing the right questions to ask, knowing,

knowing how to interrogate a problem to sort of extract the key elements,

not not accepting that will never work.

Why will it never work?

What do we need to change?

What what assumptions do we need to challenge there?

I think, you know, those are, those are all skills that you absolutely learn

when you, when you do mathematical modeling, when you do data science.

That you can apply in this context to, to, to create benefit.

Yeah, so it's this mix of not just hard skills, but also these

soft skills, um, are hugely valuable.

I imagine in environments that you're working in, there is,

you know, a lot, there could, there could be a lot of tension.

There could be a lot of, um, passionate, passionate conversations that happen.

You know, people are very dedicated to what their work to their, to their field.

And, um, when we talk about the, the skills that are useful, I'm curious if

there's, Are there a mix of soft skills or a certain types of skills that you were

able to maybe you learned a little bit of or you knew of when you were studying or

before you got into this role, but you're now that you're working day to day at the

hospital or working in this environment with with these sorts of individuals.

Are there certain skills that you've really had to hone in on

and really improve since you've started working in this arena?

Yeah, so,

so I think, um, you know, learning, learning that it's

okay to feel like an idiot sometimes, which happens a lot of the time when

you're hanging around with doctors and you, you know, you understand

maybe one in two words that they say.

Um, and you know, it's, it's just, it's, it's overwhelming sometimes how much time

these people have spent studying and the amount of knowledge that is contained in

their head that they just, you know, They can just call it up at a minute's notice.

So going, going from a sort of academic environment or a sort of

coding environment where, you know, you do things at your own pace and

you learn things and you read the documentation, learning how to sort

of slot in to a completely unfamiliar context and be comfortable with that.

Be sort of comfortable with what you don't know and then.

No, you know, the, the right questions to ask the right people to talk to, um,

the way to sort of grapple enough with their context to turn it into something

that you can reasonably engage with.

Um, and I, I think that's always stood out to me as, as finding the right people.

Um, you know, people, people have different skills in every team.

Um, you know, there's going to be the mommy of the team who likes to sort

other people out and make sure that everyone's taken care of and everyone's

keeping up and there's going to be the leader who's got new ideas and

wants to do bold things and so on.

Um, and so, you know, finding, finding how to identify those people, um,

with, within teams, um, getting, getting to the people that you.

You really know will engage with a problem will help you get to the heart

of it will give you the kind of sort of thoughtful feedback that you need is an

incredibly, incredibly valuable skill.

And, you know, sort of based on anecdotal experience, a really good

approach that I found is to, you know, ask, ask whoever's managing the team.

Who's the person that complains the most?

Who's the troublemaker, um, who's the person who keeps trying to shake things

up and change them, um, because often, you know, these are the people with,

with, with both the ideas, um, and, and also the passion to put into it, who are

sort of strongly motivated to, to, to improve where things could be improved.

Um, so I think, I think that's, you know, that's, that's an ongoing process.

Uh, each time you work with a new team, you learn something new from them.

You meet new people and they teach you things, um, uh, about their

context and also, uh, about how, how, how you can do a better job of

really understanding problems that are completely unfamiliar to you when

you start.

I almost feel like there's like a, it's a, it's a different, there

are, there are different like levels of how much an individual you will

use their like user empathy skills.

And I feel like in your situations, because it's, you're working in such

complex environments, there's so many stakeholders, there's so many people

involved, uh, you have to exercise a lot of patience, but you also are constantly

putting yourself in other folks shoes.

I'm seeing, you know, what is their perspective trying to understand from

their perspective, because I think as data scientists are people that are

very much think of data when you're in in in these industries that are

not as data or technology native.

You find that you're the the outsider coming in of sorts, um,

people are not always the most, uh, the most welcoming of you.

There are some people that are skeptical of what impact you can provide.

So I imagine you've, you've had quite a few of those sorts of experiences

where you have to kind of win people over in a sense, or really get them to.

Um, see your way of things, but there's also this, you know, you have to sit

back as well and take some time to understand it from their point of view.

I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you've summarized it really well.

I think.

I, I always, you know, in in all of of the work that these doctors do,

and I feel the pressure as well.

You know, when we have a, a session where we need to sit down with them,

we need to get feedback, find out what's working, what's not working.

Um, they've got a theater list, you know, they've got 10 patients,

10 kids who they need to operate on that day who are waiting.

Our discussion runs half hour over, um, there are patients

whose surgeries might be delayed.

There are patients whose surgeries might need to be canceled.

If they, you know, if there's a bug or a problem and they have to spend

15 minutes talking to me on the phone, um, that's 15 minutes less sleep

they're getting or 15 minutes less that they're spending with a patient.

Um, and that really puts things in perspective.

Like if I think my job is stressful, that is another level entirely.

You know, so, so, so especially in the medical setting where you're dealing with

people whose decisions save lives, um, it's, you know, you, you have to be so

aware of that and I, I think the trust is a big thing, um, you know, as, as a

doctor, when, when you've got so much responsibility on your shoulders, allowing

someone else to sort of come in and try and change the way you do things, try

and change the way you work, especially someone who is not a medical doctor.

Um, you know, letting them in in that way is a big ask.

Um, and I think, you know, the, the, the whole approach that we've tried

to take with this project is really to honor the clinicians workflows.

So, to go into their context and get a detailed understanding.

Of what they need and build something that is specifically

tailored to that rather than.

Um, you know, doing a lot of research on international best practices and

healthcare data systems, and then building a system and showing them how to use it.

Um, and so, you know, when I started this project, my sort of baptism

by fire was I, I joined them at 5 30 AM before their morning rounds.

Um, they put me in a set of scrubs and they took me to every location that

they work in this massive hospital of how many hundred buildings.

Um, and I think my Fitbit was really happy that day.

I got informed I would do on any normal day.

Um, but, you know, the.

Being so being so close to it being let in in that way was phenomenal.

I don't think I could have gotten an understanding of of, you know, the, the

complexity of their work any other way.

Um, and and also the, just the, the reality of it that every

minute of the day, um, you know, there's really sick kids who, who

these doctors are trying to help.

And every, every decision that they make, every, every event that occurs

throughout the day has the potential to contribute to that in one way or another.

Um, so, you know, I've learned from that experience that I'm really

glad I didn't go into medicine.

Um, you know, I, I didn't, I didn't faint at the sight of blood or anything,

um, but I, I, yeah, I'm in all of the, the emotional stamina that it

takes to do that day in day out and.

Also, the fact that there are all of these doctors who work under such challenging

circumstances and then go home at the end of the day and think about how to make it

better and, you know, invest more energy in thinking about the bigger picture,

which is, it's, you know, just such a phenomenal thing to see in that context.

Yeah, it's a completely different environment than if you're

just surrounded by a bunch of fellow researchers, and you're in a lab, and

you're, you know, working on a project, the fact that you have to interact

with so many other people, uh, allows for a lot of new cool experiences, uh,

and really impactful experiences, and can really shape how you personally

see the world, um, for the better.

I'm wondering now, when it comes to, you know, these environments, these resource

limited environments that you find yourself in, Are there like positives?

I know there's a lot of challenges and obviously we talked about

how impactful it is and how much you can get personally from it.

But in terms of actually.

Working on the project and the technology aspect of it, are there things that

are maybe easier or things that are surprise that was surprising to you

when it comes to try to implementing some of these solutions or proposed

solutions in these environments?

I mean, the, the, the biggest and most obvious one is that

there's such huge potential for impact.

Um, that getting, you know, the, the scope of the improvement that's needed

is huge and getting that improvement can, can change so many things.

Um, so, so that's a huge draw obviously.

Um, there's also, you know, there's, there's, there's the

fact that it's a, a very sort of developing dynamic environment.

Um, so I think.

Although you're severely constrained in the resources that you have, and

then that can be a huge barrier.

Sometimes you also have a lot less inertia, um, in terms of,

uh, legacy systems and you know, the way we've always done things.

And I think this is a, this is a trend that I've seen in, in, you know, my,

my time living in, in various different places in the world that I was in.

were still sending checks in the mail.

Um, because I remember that South Africa phased out checks when I was a kid.

Um, like, it was just seen as a really weird and inefficient way to do things

like you just log into your online banking and you just type in the account

details and then you send them the money.

option to pay my rent that way.

Um, it was, you know, you can write a check and you can,

you can send it in the mail.

So, you know, um, That's one example of being sort of a, a, a late adopter,

um, that, you know, if, if you're doing something, um, that other places have,

have already done in many different ways, you learn from that experience, right?

You, you, you get to take advantage of sort of new and exciting things,

um, without having to, to deal with all of the inertia that, that, that

comes with sort of older sort of first attempt at these systems.

Um, and I think that, You know, that's huge in terms of mobile technologies,

um, in, in, in sub Saharan Africa, particularly, um, you know, we, we

spent a lot of time working with doctors, uh, at, at Barra Pediatric

Surgery, trying to decide what kind of, you know, user interface we

were going to build for the system.

Um, and, and we, we tried to go in with, you know, absolutely no preconceived

ideas about what this should be.

And the conclusion we came to is it's, it's gotta be an app.

Um, they're, you know, they're constantly walking from building to building.

We can't put computers in all of these buildings.

Um, you know, who's, who's gonna, who's gonna maintain them?

And the doctors are constantly on their phones.

You know, this is this is how they stay in contact.

If something goes wrong, um, you know, they have to have their phone with them.

So, you know, I think that that would be probably quite a.

Quite a big ask if you went to a major hospital in the US and said, you know

what, from now on, we're going to do all our data stuff with phones.

Um, you know, but, but, but it was just sort of the, the, the

logical step in this context.

And so I think, you know, mobile technology in general,

um, is, is so accessible.

So ubiquitous.

Um, and, and there's really, really exciting opportunities there.

And, and we're sort of.

We're getting straight to that, um, in, in the work I've been doing, which, you know,

again, didn't see myself as a mobile dev.

Um, but it's really exciting to be working with a team who's doing that

and seeing, hey, you know, we can make an app and it's a really useful app.

So, yeah, I think, you know, with, with the challenges there, there

are these silver linings that make it a really exciting place to be.

Yeah, just to be able to jump in and kind of think

mobile 1st, think of what's the most lightweight way that you can.

I think that also bleeds into this, like, thought of.

Being agile in a sense in, in being, you know, just showing, you know, what is the

minimum viable product that we can provide to you, where I would be, you know,

the, that would provide the most value with the least amount of, um, investment

just to get something to you faster.

The, the thought of, of folks just signing up for mobile applications

in, in the hospitals here in the U.

S., this is like, oh, you know, it seems like there'd be a lot

of, uh, a lot of need to convince them of the need for that.

But with the work that you're doing, you're able to.

You know, there is no precedence and you can define what that 1st step looks like.

And that that's really exciting.

But there's also a lot of responsibility there, which I'm,

I'm sure you feel you feel every day

looking at.

This that if you're looking at the future of this field, I'm wondering

what your thoughts are regarding, um, people that are working in this similar

environments as you, what do you, do you see that your area of work growing?

You see more people getting involved.

Do you see a lot more momentum and funding in in these areas?

Or are you seeing the opposite?

What, what, what do you think is the future trajectory of this area of work?

I, I, you know, I, I definitely think it's going to grow.

Um, I think COVID galvanized, uh, a lot of that, um, you know, COVID forced a

lot of people to, to do things virtually, um, that they wouldn't have otherwise,

um, and I think that will, you know, that will take some time to sort of

sink in at a much deeper level, at a policy level, at a planning level.

Um, but it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of unavoidable

that once you've taken those first steps into, into doing things.

Digitally, you don't go back.

Um, you know, you, you, once you have the convenience of, of being

able to, you know, video call or do WhatsApp or whatever it is, um,

you know, whatever, whatever tool was available to you in the moment.

Um, it's very hard to think, um, you know, actually, we should do all of

this in person, um, and we should print out all of these things, um, and so on.

So, so I think it's, you know, the, the seeds are there, um, and I think doing it.

Right is, is the bigger question.

Are we going to, are we going to do it properly?

Are we going to do it sustainably?

Because we're going to do it.

It's, it's happening.

It's inevitable.

Um, but making sure that, that, that we're doing it in a way that sort of

sets us up for future success, um, and, and minimizes, you know, future

risks and problems is, is the key.

Um, and I, I think, you know, there, there is definitely, um, a lot of, a

lot of movement in this, in the space.

Um, you know, there's, there's a whole lot of.

New, um, sort of medical technologies that, that, that are becoming accessible

and with those, there's a greater interest in research and in data.

And so it's sort of coming from all sides.

There's patients want access to their data.

Um, and, you know, and then there's, there's the, the people developing

the blood tests or the new cancer treatment who really need that data

to, to be able to do their research.

So I think pulling all of these things together in the right way.

Um, is really key and, and, and, and there are, there are definitely conflicts.

Um, you know, the, the, the simplest one is really, um, making sure that

everything you do is good for the patient.

Um, that, you know, someone's, someone's health care and someone's

data should never, should never be used in a way that doesn't benefit them.

Um, and, and making sure that that all of those decisions, uh, are, are sort

of firmly grounded in that principle.

Um, but, yeah, I, you know, I, I definitely think, um, we're not

going back, um, we're, we're, we're, we're only going forward.

Um, and, and I think as, as time goes on, they're going to be a lot more people

sort of asking good questions about, are we going forward in the right way?

What, what is the best way to go forward?

And I'm really, really happy to be there to, to, to hear that.

Yeah, the, you know, the, the momentum that this already

has, I can see it already continuing.

I mean, people are obviously becoming more and more digitally savvy.

People are growing up already in this digital age, and they are expecting

these tools already be available.

And with that expectation.

Just comes the products and the delivery of these sorts of

tools and capabilities to them.

But like you said, the most important thing is to make sure that we have the

right people that are building these things and we have the right mindset.

I think, especially in this field, that's so sensitive and there's such a, you

know, you have so much responsibility.

It's important to have the right people building these products and.

Creating change in these organizations.

Do you have advice?

I'm sure people that are listening and are very interested in, like, working in these

sorts of fields where you don't have, you know, everything you'd like, and you could

possibly ask for your disposal, but you have to try to figure out how to make it

work, how to figure out how to make, uh, how to make impact when you're not given.

Much what advice do you have for folks that are interested

in these in these fields?

You know, I think the 1 is to be grounded in reality and sort of

the, the, the practical reality of your.

Your situation and what you want to achieve.

Um, you know, having having a very clear idea of why you're doing what

you're doing and how it how it's valuable to you and that that's going

to be different for every individual.

Um, but that helps because it is tough.

You need something to get you through the tough times.

Um, you know, you, you are going to have to make sacrifices at some point.

If you if you if you want to do something, that's that's really, really meaningful.

It's probably not going to be super easy.

Um, so so I think being really grounded in that is is key and that's.

That's about you personally, um, you know, that's not really

something that, that, that, that you get from, from someone else.

Um, I think having the, the right collaborators is the other key thing,

um, that really, if you want to solve complex problems where there's

not a lot of information available, where there's a great need, um, you

need champions of that solution who understand the context to live in it.

Um, who deal with it every day.

Um, so, so anytime that, um, that, you know, you, you, you sort of find yourself

making assumptions, there should be someone who checks those assumptions.

Um, there should be someone who sort of informs the, the way you move forward

and, and knowing how to connect with those people and find those people.

Um, is, is hugely valuable and, you know, they, they make all the difference.

Um, and then, and then I think the, you know, the, the other part of it is

treating it as a journey, um, that there's always setbacks, um, and, and you, you

don't start from point A and go directly towards point B with single minded

determination, um, and constant focus.

Um, you know, it's okay to question things.

It's okay to take detours.

It's, it's okay to make mistakes.

Um, and, you know, ultimately that's, that's how you, that's how you find

where you need to be, um, being sort of open to, to new opportunities that

might arise and, and, and sort of ready to, to rethink at the appropriate

times.

Yeah, when it's not a straight line, you become open to like, learning new

things, you like, explore new frontiers.

No, that no, I love it.

I love it.

You everything that you said.

It is the complexity and the unexpectedness of this field

are what make it exciting.

But also it is important to know really what that means.

I mean, it is a it is a profession.

It's a field.

It's a it's a field of work and it The, the opportunities are, um,

the opportunities are real and the opportunities are, can be immense, but

there's also a lot that comes with it that you also need to make sure that you

keep an awareness of, um, and yeah, it's a, I love the idea that it's, you know,

things are not straight lines, you can, you have to go in around about, but that's

where you learn the most and that's, um, are the most exciting journeys.

So thank you for that.

So as we actually near the end of this episode, I wanted to close

with like a short game of sorts that I have labeled fact or fiction.

So, I have a few statements here about working in resource limited settings,

um, not all of them are completely relevant, similar to our zombie apocalypse

in the beginning of the episode.

And I would like you to tell me if you think these statements are fact

or fiction, and there's no expectation at all that you should actually

know the answer to any of these.

The real, the truth, the ground truth of any of these, um, I just think it's

a great, uh, exercise to just test your, test your, um, test your skills.

With that, the first one, so many nonprofits have to work under

resource limited circumstances.

Despite this challenge, there are around 10 million nonprofits worldwide.

Is that fact or fiction?

Fact.

Yes, there are.

Okay, so there are around 10 million nonprofits worldwide.

I was surprised.

I didn't think that number would be...

Yeah, I was like, that's actually, when I saw 10, I was like, oh,

that doesn't seem like a lot.

But then million, I'm like, that's a lot.

Fun fact, 15% of them tend to be in the U.

S.

I think the majority are in Asia.

So just like in terms of distribution here.

All right.

Second one, uh, let's talk about NGOs and charities.

So healthcare was the largest segment of the NGOs and charitable

And you can talk this out too.

Like, I'm going to say fiction because I don't

think it's, like, 55% is a lot.

You're right!

Oh my gosh, I'm surprised.

I would not have, yeah, you're right.

I didn't expect it to be well.

Yeah, you're two for two right now.

Um, yeah, so actually healthcare is the largest, the fastest growing segment.

Of the market, but trust and foundations are actually the largest

segment, then they make up 55%.

So I think of, like, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation,

which is the largest one.

All right, 3rd one, let's see rural rural areas around the globe generally

have less access to resources when compared to urban areas.

Currently, the rural population globally is around 44%.

Hmm.

Well, I know that the first sentence was true, um, in terms of rural

areas having less access to resources.

That statement is at least 50% true.

And 44%, I'm going to say fiction.

It is a fact.

Already 44%.

Yes, the rural population globally is around 44% and

it's going to continue to decrease.

I think over the years, I think that's the prediction.

Yeah, wow.

Okay.

Yeah, most are in rural, uh, urban areas, which I was, like, surprised about too.

I was like, wow, I didn't know that many are in, like, cities and whatnot.

Oh, I would have thought it was the other, like, I

was thinking 44% sounds too high.

Oh, really?

I was thinking there's been so much urbanization, like, you know, does,

does, doesn't it, doesn't it sound a bit, like, high for 44% of the population

to be in, in areas classed as rural?

That's so interesting.

We may have different perspectives on this.

I'm, I'm in the city, so I just feel like, you know, I'm just

like, everyone should be here, right?

Everyone's sitting here.

It seems like everyone's here.

Uh, okay, four.

Uh, the non profit sector in the U.

S.

employs about 11.

9 million people, making it the country's third largest employer

after retail and manufacturing.

Okay, um,

I'm going to say fiction because I'm guessing maybe one of

those statements is not true.

I have no idea which one, so I'm just hedging my bets there really.

I

like your, I like your thought process there.

Actually, it's a fact.

Yeah.

So the nonprofit sector is, um, the third largest employer, which I was like, wow,

yeah, I was surprised about that too.

That is huge.

Where does the, do you know where government ranks on that list in the U S?

Um, I don't know.

Okay.

Well, I mean, 11, 11 point something million people is, is, is pretty big.

So yeah.

Cause the nonprofit also includes like the hospital, many hospitals

are related as nonprofits.

So it's just.

Yeah, it's really big in the U.

S.

It's very broad.

There's like, it covers a lot of ground.

All right, so you're 50 50.

All right, the last one.

Fresh water is a very limited resource, as you all know.

That's not the question, and that's not the sentence in question.

That's true.

That's true.

Today, only 3% of fresh water is in liquid form on the surface.

3% of fresh water is in liquid form on the surface.

True?

Fact?

It is fiction!

Okay,

but what is Only 0.

3% of fresh water is in liquid form on the surface.

Yeah.

Yeah, so most fresh water exists in the form of ice, snow, and

ground water, and soil moisture.

Oh, okay, I see.

Okay.

Yeah, so only 0.

3%.

I was like, fresh water, really?

Well, in my defense, I really try not to think

about frozen things when I can.

I come from a very warm climate, and we just sort of try to pretend

that that's snow and sleet and that.

I don't exist for

most of you.

Okay.

We'll give you that pass.

The more you know.

The more you know.

Thank you, Emma, for being a worthy player.

And thank you as well.

Thank you so much for being my guest.

I have always admired the work you do and the dedication that you put to your craft.

And I'm so grateful to be able to share your insights and thoughts with others.

You are a natural explorer.

Even though we're, even though you're like facing, you know, these challenges

every day, you, your impact is just so immense and you're so dedicated to helping

others and like you're really not afraid to take these paths left, less traveled

and just go right in and put in the hard work that needs to be done because you

see you're excited to take this path.

The, the impact of what you're doing and you see the potential that you can create.

So, um, I deeply appreciate you being here and taking your

time to be with us here today.

No, thank you.

I've been lovely to, to chat about this stuff and I, I

could chat about this forever.

Um, so really, really great to talk with like minded people and thank you for the

opportunity.

I wanted to also thank Hatch IT for sponsoring this episode and

allowing me to host these series.

And lastly, I'd like to thank you, the listener, for tuning into this episode

and exploring the world of data with us.

Take care, everyone.

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